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Post by jaison1986 on Nov 26, 2017 1:57:33 GMT
What we need is a nice big island out in the middle of the Pacific somewhere and build a giant force field all around it to prevent anyone from escaping. Then place thousands of cameras all over the place to broadcast 24/7. You commit a heinous crime that would have gotten you the death penalty or life in prison we air drop you on the island instead and make a reality TV show out of it. That island sounds an awful lot like Hollywood.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 26, 2017 8:08:43 GMT
If we had more gruesome death penalties like the days of old, there probably be less crimes. Not just death penalties, lawbreakers in generally should face harsher treatments and sentences in many cases. In my country, if you rape somebody worst case scenario is getting free shelter, some psychosocial counseling, free high standard food 3 times a day, access to a great health care system, free TV, free education programs, access to computers, a ton of free time, for one or two years - all paid by the tax payers. And oh boy, it gets even better if you have an immigration background. Rapists leave prisons well fed and in a great mood while their traumatized victims suffer for the rest of their lives or even commit suicide. Thats so wrong. If I had to run the jurisdiction of a country the first treatment of convicted rapists, criminals convicted of mayhem or assault would be good old police brutality. Then I'd put them into labor camps, it makes no sense for convicted criminals that caused a lot of harm to others not to have to work for their food and shelter. In Russia they have prisons that mostly run themselves, inmates have to work in order to stay alive. The worst scum like murderers / terrorists would have to serve a life sentence in the worst labor camps and work their asses off. Of course, punishing criminals in such harsh ways does not prevent crime completely or make it vanish magically, but it would make many people reconsider their actions. Brutalizing criminals more sounds great and all, but would most likely just result in a rise in recidivism and not yield any real positive results, other than perhaps emotional satisfaction.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 11:44:16 GMT
Brutalizing criminals more sounds great and all, but would most likely just result in a rise in recidivism and not yield any real positive results, other than perhaps emotional satisfaction. Brutalizing sounds harsh, I'd call it proper justice. Also you make giving the people emotional satisfaction sound like a trivial side effect of justice, in fact emotional satisfaction makes up the very foundation of justice, its impact on society cannot be overestimated. And according to a lot of studies the recidivism rate of criminals sentenced for crimes like mayhem, rape, assault and of course murder has always been notoriously high, especially with the current jurisdiction. I think having a harsh and proper justice system would decrease the danger of people repeating their mistakes and would make any would-be criminal reconsider. Sending people into prisons that have been turned into hotels with great food, TV, games and health care sure as hell does not send a message. Of course I'm talking about dangerous criminals here, no way am I implying that people that cross the street during red lights should sent to a labor camp.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 26, 2017 12:34:53 GMT
Brutalizing criminals more sounds great and all, but would most likely just result in a rise in recidivism and not yield any real positive results, other than perhaps emotional satisfaction. Brutalizing sounds harsh, I'd call it proper justice. Also you make giving the people emotional satisfaction sound like a trivial side effect of justice, in fact emotional satisfaction makes up the very foundation of justice, its impact on society cannot be overestimated. And according to a lot of studies the recidivism rate of criminals sentenced for crimes like mayhem, rape, assault and of course murder has always been notoriously high, especially with the current jurisdiction. I think having a harsh and proper justice system would decrease the danger of people repeating their mistakes and would make any would-be criminal reconsider. Sending people into prisons that have been turned into hotels with great food, TV, games and health care sure as hell does not send a message. Of course I'm talking about dangerous criminals here, no way am I implying that people that cross the street during red lights should sent to a labor camp. I don't think "proper" is really the right word to use, mainly because of the vagueness of what this newfangled prison would really entail. Like, daily beatings? Water torture? What exactly would this harsher treatment be, and to what extent should it be carried out as to be satisfactory? I guess something else I'd wonder is who they'd get to carry this out on a regular basis. I get taking away certain amenities like TV/movies, games and such, but ultimately the goal should be to maintain order. Fun as the idea might sound in theory, I doubt many corrections officers would really want to deal with even harsher prisons on a regular basis, watching these people go just a bit crazier over the years, well, except for the sadists. You say that the rate of repeat offense for crimes like mayhem, rape and murder is notoriously high, but the question I have is whether or not this will actually decrease with a system built with a harsher more punishing environment. If there's any example to support that, I'd be interested to see it, whereas places with harsher prisons tend to be some of the most violent in the world. As for emotional satisfaction, that's not something I'd ever put as a primary concern, because emotional satisfaction is prone to being terribly unreasonable. I might find a great deal of satisfaction in watching the person who murdered a loved one being eviscerated alive and screaming, but I can't say that the state should ever satisfy my bloodlust.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 12:52:59 GMT
I don't think "proper" is really the right word to use, mainly because of the vagueness of what this newfangled prison would really entail. Like, daily beatings? Water torture? What exactly would this harsher treatment be, and to what extent should it be carried out as to be satisfactory? As I mentioned some posts above, labor camps. Russia has prisons that run themselves nearly completely autonomously, they have to work hard for their own survival or produce something to make their amendments to society they harmed. Having society pay tax money for all the needs of those prisoners is punishing the people and rewarding the criminals. Labor camps are also much harsher punishment than simply ''storing'' criminals in expensive a hotels with some bars like we do today. People hate hard physical and abusive work, making them work their asses off for many years with minimal comfort is punishment enough. Convicts who are deemed ''hopeless'' or too dangerous to release serve a life sentence in those labor camps. Which came first? The egg or the chicken? I'm pretty sure their harsh jurisdiction is simply a way of dealing with the high crime rates. Do you think if countries with the highest crime rates had prisons like in Europe crime would decrease? Absolutely not, it would encourage crime because these prisons would improve the lives of the very poor criminals, which is another problematic thing. You don't want a prisons that actually reward criminals for their actions. Prisons have to be terrible. Emotional satisfactory is just another word for moral. Our justice system is based on our morals, or used to be, now it is based on the morals of a few powerful people who run the jurisdictional system. Oftentimes people who committed minor tax fraud are treated more harshly than people who committed rape or mayhem. Needless to say that punishments for crimes that do not satisfy the majority of the people is very problematic. Having a society laugh about their justice system is not good. All things being equal, I'm pretty sure that people are less likely to beat other people to death in a country where such crime is punished with hard labor camp for many years as in a country where this kind of action is punished with a prolonged holiday in a western standard prison.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 13:08:03 GMT
Absolutely not, it would encourage crime because these prisons would improve the lives of the very poor criminals, which is another problematic thing. Improving the conditions of the poor and offering them mental counseling has been shown effective at decreasing recidivism rates. Emotional satisfactory is just another word for moral. It would be emotionally satisfying for me to see people who protest the funerals of gay teens get their face pounded in. The state doesn't have a responsibility to provide me with that. It has the responsibility to ensure that I am as safe from crime as possible without interfering with the rights of others. That means the containment and/or correction of those who have done others harm and might do me harm.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 13:34:54 GMT
Improving the conditions of the poor and offering them mental counseling has been shown effective at decreasing recidivism rates. Newsflash: decreasing poverty and increasing health care in a society has a great effect in crime rates in general. Newsflash #2: Rewarding criminals with great conditions in prisons increases crime and decreases moral satisfaction of the harmed. Logics. We've had several cases recently where people from poor countries but with a legal visa killed someone to go to prison for free shelter, health care and food. One guy from Kenya had a legal visa run out and when he was about to be deported back in his home country (he did not receive immigration status, Kenya is not a war zone) he beat a woman to death with an iron pipe in broad daylight. He was arrested and now serves a 30 year sentence in our awesome prison. There are many similar cases. It would be emotionally satisfying for me to see people who protest the funerals of gay teens get their face pounded in. I hope you realize that your view in this reflects that of a very small minority. How many people do you personally know who feel the same way? Few people are bloodthirsty lunatics.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 14:05:11 GMT
Rewarding criminals with great conditions in prisons increases crime...We've had several cases recently where people from poor countries but with a legal visa killed someone to go to prison for free shelter, health care and food. One guy from Kenya had a legal visa run out and when he was about to be deported back in his home country (he did not receive immigration status, Kenya is not a war zone) he beat a woman to death with an iron pipe in broad daylight. He was arrested and now serves a 30 year sentence in our awesome prison. There are many similar cases. Can you link me that case or ones that are similar? I can't seem to pull them up in searches. And it seems weird to me that brutal street murder of a random person would be the go-to when any other crime would have sufficed. But anyway, in the story as you tell it, an individual with violent capabilities and an utter disregard for human life was removed from your society and kept where he can't hurt anyone anymore. That's what happened. The promise of a cushy prison stay didn't make him into a sociopath who would kill someone for his own gain; he was that already. But a prison system with programs that helps to steer people onto the right path with mental health care and positive reinforcement does make people less likely to remain criminals. I hope you realize that your view in this reflects that of a very small minority. How many people do you personally know who feel the same way? Few people are bloodthirsty lunatics.Have you seen this thread? And you probably don't know much about the Westboro Baptist Church here in America, but suffice it to say, they're a thoroughly unpopular crowd.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 14:58:58 GMT
[unsolicited opinions on radical Islam] Uh, yeah, the point was more about instances of moral appeasement that the government doesn't (and isn't functionally obligated to) oblige. We do tend to let the government deal with actual terrorists.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 15:15:05 GMT
Uh, yeah, the point was more about instances of moral appeasement that the government doesn't (and isn't functionally obligated to) oblige. We do tend to let the government deal with actual terrorists. Solicited or not, it is telling when the first example you thought of when it comes for morally abhorrent, religiously motivated hatful behavior, is the factually and numerically less threatening example, and the politically correct uncontroversial milquetoast textbook example.
It's not that telling when you realize that one group is notoriously vocal in espousing its message in a way that directly hurts innocent people, while the other is notoriously insular in how it spreads its harmful ideas. I don't wish harm upon the Westboro Baptist Church because they believe fucked up things; I wish harm upon them because they spout fucked up things at grieving parents trying to mourn their dead children.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 15:21:02 GMT
Can you link me that case or ones that are similar? I can't seem to pull them up in searches. And it seems weird to me that brutal street murder of a random person would be the go-to when any other crime would have sufficed. I can't find all the articles because this happened 2016, but this was the fist one: derstandard.at/2000036279713/Frau-in-Wien-Ottakring-mit-Eisenstange-getoetetYou are missing the point completely, first of all tax payers have to pay for this murderer for decades, something that does not happen in several prisons in Russia because the inmates have to work for their food and shelter. ( for example the Polar Owl camp, Siberia) The murderer has now vastly improved his situation because he was basically homeless and now he has high standard food, bed, health care and all the other comforts of the western lifestyle. The family of the killed person have not received any kind of justice, in fact they are paying for that criminals welfare. The victim got her head crushed with an iron pipe, society is angry because of the unfair sentence, lots of money is lost. And the worst thing is, this case has given many people a bad idea. Crime = imprisonment = warm beds, great food, health care. Yeah, the only happy outcome here is for the murderer. And no, thats not a great day for society because the murder should not have happened in the first place. Rehabilitating murderers and brutal rapists? Now thats a profoundly bad idea. Do you really want to rehabilitate murderers and risk other peoples lives? What for? If they are not properly rehabilitated, which is most likely the case, the blood of another person is on your hands. I certainly would not risk it, murder should always be a one way street - except there are very special circumstances in favor of the criminal. I would not risk letting brutal criminals go free no matter how rehabilitated they are. I have no reason to let them go possibly putting a lot of people in grave danger. For all I care, I'd let such people rot in a labor camps. Brutal criminals going free because experts said they are rehabilitated, and then they kill or rape someone during the next 24 hours of their new freedom has happened many times. Well, oops I guess. People say a lot of bullshit on the Internet, they get quite serious when they have to judge about another person in real life. Remember the people you don't trust are the same people who get elected for jury in murder trials. If random mentally sound citizen are qualified to decide if a person is guilty or not they are also qualified to have their say in the degree of penalty. There is no reason they should not.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 16:08:13 GMT
Yeah I'm not seeing anything about a "cushy jail" even being surmised as the motive for his crime. He's been living in the country illegally for years, he never applied for asylum, he didn't try to extended his visa, and he's committed crimes before, including a previous attack with an iron bar. And upon further research into the case, it seems that a psychiatric expert identified the cause for the crime as "acute untreated paranoid schizophrenia and hallucinations." Which, you know, is the kind of thing that should be dealt with via containment and treatment. Yeah, the only happy outcome here is for the murderer. And no, thats not a great day for society because the murder should not have happened in the first place. My point wasn't that this was an overall good thing for any of this incident to have happened; it's that this didn't happen because of a less-harsh prison system. And it didn't. It happened because of untreated mental illness, which isn't going to be made better with a more uncomfortable cell. I would not risk letting brutal criminals go free no matter how rehabilitated they are. I have no reason to let them go possibly putting a lot of people in grave danger. Depends on the exact nature of the crime. Violent crime can range from anything from assault, to armed robbery, to murder. And even then, there are different circumstances to murder. Was it in a heated altercation, was it gang-related, was it a serial killer? If it's sexual assault, do we throw someone in a prison camp forever for fingering a girl while she's sleeping, the same way we might do for a serial child rapist? I would agree that some criminals are too dangerous to ever be considered as possibly rehabilitated, but for those that we intend to release back into society at some point, corrective treatment and education have proven to be a far more effective means of reducing recidivism than harsh jail time. People say a lot of bullshit on the Internet, they get quite serious when they have to judge about another person in real life. Remember the people you don't trust are the same people who get elected for jury in murder trials. If random mentally sound citizen are qualified to decide if a person is guilty or not they are also qualified to have their say in the degree of penalty. There is no reason they should not. Well I actually do question the validity of the whole jury system due to how arbitrary and fickle it can be, but what you said here didn't actually have anything to do with the initial point of "Yeah a lot of people really hate the Westboro Baptist Church and would find it morally satisfying if bad things happened to them."
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 16:22:18 GMT
It's not that telling when you realize that one group is notoriously vocal in espousing its message in a way that directly hurts innocent people, while the other is notoriously insular in how it spreads its harmful ideas. I don't wish harm upon the Westboro Baptist Church because they believe fucked up things; I wish harm upon them because they spout fucked up things at grieving parents trying to mourn their dead children. Tbh, I'd take the religious nutjobs that like to say hurtful words to gays, over those that think that it's a great idea to throw them off roofs. Of course with them it's not limited to gays either. And I have no idea where you are taking that "insular" bit from. That's factually incorrect. It's perhaps that you aren't in a demographic being targeted. Well I mean, they both "think" that gays and others should be put to death. We don't do anything about it unless they actually carry it out. But in the particular case of the Westboro Baptist Church, while they don't carry out the crime (which again, the justice system would resolve), they act on their beliefs in a way that does directly harm and intrude in the lives of others but is allowed to happen by law. Two groups can both want me to die a horrific death and burn in hell fire, but if one group just thinks it and the other group is shouting that at me while I'm trying to have a moment of peace, I'm going to hate the shout-y group a lot more. My not being "targeted" means that the manner in which it's being disseminated is more restricted, more insular than the WBC's approach of shouting on the streets at everyone who walks by.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 17:02:56 GMT
Yeah I'm not seeing anything about a "cushy jail" even being surmised as the motive for his crime. He was homeless because he was in a no-visa no refugee-limbo. This article is incomplete however, it was later found out that he was a convicted criminal back in Kenya and thats why Kenya did not agree with the extradition for a long time. They basically did not want him back. He was denied from refugee status and from extending his visa because of his criminal past so he got stuck in that bureaucracy limbo. He was basically homeless and lived off the welfare of the people at the very place he killed that woman, many crimes were theft. When Kenya finally complied he did not want to go back and committed murder so he could stay here and live a life in our prison. I was specifically talking about murder and brutal rape, as you can see in my last post. As I mentioned in my previous post. There are exceptions for everything. Sexual assault is not the same as brutal rape. Remember, the specific thread title here is ''Very evil people'', this is more along the lines of worst case crimes. Also, exceptions have to be considered. Yes, with that I absolutely agree, I was specifically talking about rehabilitation of criminals with a very violent history, murder, brutal rape etc., similar to the example I have given, loosely complying with the thread title: ''very evil people''. Society surely benefits from proper rehab procedures for people convicted of minor crimes, and recidivism with a tax fraud is much less dramatic than with a murderer. I'd still put them in labor camps though because as I said, its beneficial to the tax payers, part of the punishment is deterrence and last but not least crime must not pay off. Prisons must never improve the life of the criminals, prisons must be a bad experience. This is currently not the case at all, thats my whole point. Well I actually do question the validity of the whole jury system due to how arbitrary and fickle it can be. But what you said here didn't actually have anything to do with the initial point of "Yeah a lot of people really hate the Westboro Baptist Church and would find it morally satisfying if bad things happened to them. Come up with a better system. Also why should I care about this church? They are not criminals, they are just using their freedom of speech to spread hate and bullshit, verbally. We are talking about punishing violent criminals here so there is no point. We can have that kind of talk if they decide to kill a bunch of people because of their religious beliefs, then they are on trial for multiple murder, like any other murderer. Until then they should be closely monitored to prevent any potential crime, against them or from them. BTW, any lengthy discussion here is a total pain the butt, there is walls of texts and quotes all over the place.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 19:32:07 GMT
The basis of every law we have, whether religious or governmental, is that killing people is that its wrong. It goes for essentially every semi-decent place in the world. Killing is always looked down on by the law, and people who murder are criminals.
The moment you start talking about the death penalty (among other things) thats when murder, suddenly, becomes the "right" thing to do. It makes the entire system meaningless. Its arbitrary. It doesnt follow a consistent view on morality. Its decreeing that killing people is wrong, and then going ahead and doing the exact thing that it is apparently against. Hypocritical, arbitrary and inconsistent arent words you want when talking about justice.
As for the people who have used the word "deserve" in this thread in relation to people being sentenced to death, Im sure murderers, rapists and terrorists also feel that their victims "deserve" what they do to them. By wishing people dead, are you in any place to act as if youre somehow morally justified???
And as for the costs/resources to keep criminals in prison: when the alternative is killing them, you are spending money to save a life. Worth it. No matter how someone chooses to live their lives, it doesnt magically devalue it. A life is a life.
Killing a murderer serves NO purpose. You already have them imprisoned if you can sentence them to death. You can keep them somewhere which makes sure theyll never be a threat to anyone ever again. You cant even justify it by acting as if taking one life to save another is somehow ok. Killing a killer isnt an act of justice, its an act of bloodthirsty vengeance by a system which should be better, and is just as bad as those it imprisons.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Nov 26, 2017 19:43:33 GMT
You are missing the point completely, first of all tax payers have to pay for this murderer for decades, something that does not happen in several prisons in Russia because the inmates have to work for their food and shelter. ( for example the Polar Owl camp, Siberia) The murderer has now vastly improved his situation because he was basically homeless and now he has high standard food, bed, health care and all the other comforts of the western lifestyle. The family of the killed person have not received any kind of justice, in fact they are paying for that criminals welfare. The victim got her head crushed with an iron pipe, society is angry because of the unfair sentence, lots of money is lost. And the worst thing is, this case has given many people a bad idea. Crime = imprisonment = warm beds, great food, health care. Yeah, the only happy outcome here is for the murderer. And no, thats not a great day for society because the murder should not have happened in the first place. Life time slavery is a good alternative, but it has its own problems. The convict might escape someday and disappear.
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Post by mattig89ch on Nov 26, 2017 19:50:15 GMT
And as for the costs/resources to keep criminals in prison: when the alternative is killing them, you are spending money to save a life. Worth it. No matter how someone chooses to live their lives, it doesnt magically devalue it. A life is a life. Killing a murderer serves NO purpose. You already have them imprisoned if you can sentence them to death. You can keep them somewhere which makes sure theyll never be a threat to anyone ever again. You cant even justify it by acting as if taking one life to save another is somehow ok. Killing a killer isnt an act of justice, its an act of bloodthirsty vengeance by a system which should be better, and is just as bad as those it imprisons. I'm not sure I'd agree. I would actually value a murderer's life less then a non-murderer's life. Don't forget, these people can (and sometimes do) take life in prison's. They have committed an act that is considered evil, and is just wrong (by most standards). But your ok with paying for these people to get 3 square meals a day, a warm roof over their heads, and an easy life? But I like that syberian prison idea. Forcing convicts to earn enough money to feed and clothe themselves. Though how you'd go about doing that is the question I don't know how to answer.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 20:42:11 GMT
The moment you start talking about the death penalty (among other things) thats when murder, suddenly, becomes the "right" thing to do. It makes the entire system meaningless. Its arbitrary. It doesnt follow a consistent view on morality. Its decreeing that killing people is wrong, and then going ahead and doing the exact thing that it is apparently against. Hypocritical, arbitrary and inconsistent arent words you want when talking about justice. I'm not a great advocate of the death penalty, but your idealistic point of view doesn't hold water in the face of the depths human depravity can reach. There are some acts and some crimes so horrific that a death penalty seems like a paltry punishment in comparison. The reason I'm personally not particularly enthusiastic about it is more pragmatic, the possibility of errors, etc. But even that can be eliminated partially with a higher standard of proof.
It might be idealistic, but at least its consistent. It doesnt really matter how bad human depravity is, so long as the justice system itself isnt just as depraved. Otherwise its just depravity vs depravity with no morality, and no point.
And as for the costs/resources to keep criminals in prison: when the alternative is killing them, you are spending money to save a life. Worth it. No matter how someone chooses to live their lives, it doesnt magically devalue it. A life is a life. Killing a murderer serves NO purpose. You already have them imprisoned if you can sentence them to death. You can keep them somewhere which makes sure theyll never be a threat to anyone ever again. You cant even justify it by acting as if taking one life to save another is somehow ok. Killing a killer isnt an act of justice, its an act of bloodthirsty vengeance by a system which should be better, and is just as bad as those it imprisons. I'm not sure I'd agree. I would actually value a murderer's life less then a non-murderer's life. Don't forget, these people can (and sometimes do) take life in prison's. They have committed an act that is considered evil, and is just wrong (by most standards). But your ok with paying for these people to get 3 square meals a day, a warm roof over their heads, and an easy life? But I like that syberian prison idea. Forcing convicts to earn enough money to feed and clothe themselves. Though how you'd go about doing that is the question I don't know how to answer.
Why???
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Although I think describing prison as easy miiigghhhttt be a bit of an understatement Theres a reason why some criminals kill themselves instead of facing a life behind bars.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 20:55:28 GMT
It might be idealistic, but at least its consistent. It doesnt really matter how bad human depravity is, so long as the justice system itself isnt just as depraved. Otherwise its just depravity vs depravity with no morality, and no point. Doesn't really have much to do with consistency tbh, not unless you have a rule that says that killing someone is always wrong, and that's not a statement I'd agree to. But hey, we can agree to disagree.
I agree to that. I dont think theres any point in criticizing and jailing some people for killing people, then deciding that when someone else does it, its any different. But sure, lets agree to disagree. I think we just have different views on morality
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Giant Ambush Beetle
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giantambushbeetle
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Nov 26, 2017 20:57:18 GMT
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Would you be ok with paying the food, water shelter, health care and clothing of the person that raped and killed your girlfriend, for the next 50 years?
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guest@proboards.com
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January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 21:07:21 GMT
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Would you be ok with paying the food, water shelter, health care and clothing of the person that raped and killed your girlfriend, for the next 50 years?
Yup. Apparently its what she'd want me to do (she'd want other people to do something... else involving a tank, but for me, she'd want me to do that) and its something Id want to do also. Their punishment would be imprisonment, and 50 years is longer than the moment it takes to kill someone. I wouldnt want them dead or tortured, not at all.
I dont think theres any point in criticizing and jailing some people for killing people What about raping a child and torturing him to death?... When I spoke about human depravity I didn't think that I needed to illustrate exactly what I mean. Some would argue that killing such a person would be a moral duty.
No change in my stance
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DomeWing333
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 23:21:04 GMT
Aren't the WBC types more "you will burn in hell for this" and less "you should be burned for this for realz"? They closely follow the word of the bible. The bible says people who practice homosexuality should be put to death. Ergo. Honor killings and child molestation still fit within the scope of "things the government is allowed to protect its people from." The fact that there are instances in which the law fails to do so is not relevant to the discussion. You were curious as to why I, personally, chose to single out the WBC over Muslim radicals as a group I have a particularly strong distaste towards but do not expect the government to act against. And I've explained. Where I come from, they are more vocal in their message without actually committing any crimes for the government to prosecute. And so, as I much as I and many others would be satisfied to see repercussions against their cruelty towards those at their lowest, the function of the government is not to provide that feeling of satisfaction but to merely prevent crime and maintain peace.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Nov 26, 2017 23:47:39 GMT
When Kenya finally complied he did not want to go back and committed murder so he could stay here and live a life in our prison. That's the part I'm saying that's unfounded. The guy committed the murder because he was a paranoid schizophrenic with a history of violence, not because of the promise of a cushy prison cell. Society surely benefits from proper rehab procedures for people convicted of minor crimes, and recidivism with a tax fraud is much less dramatic than with a murderer. I'd still put them in labor camps though because as I said, its beneficial to the tax payers, part of the punishment is deterrence and last but not least crime must not pay off. Prisons must never improve the life of the criminals, prisons must be a bad experience. This is currently not the case at all, thats my whole point. People who undergo more productive and positive prison rehabilitation programs still want to leave prison. They're encouraged and incentivized to seek a better future for themselves when they transition away from the prison system. And the more you make prison into something that approximates the outside world the prisoners are going to be released into, the more successful that transition will be for them to reenter society. "Labor camps" are counterproductive in this regard. Forcing people to work isn't something we do in society; we reward people for choosing to work. So what I do support are voluntary programs like this one that offers prison labor as means of reform rather than as a punishment unto itself.
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 26, 2017 23:53:44 GMT
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Would you be ok with paying the food, water shelter, health care and clothing of the person that raped and killed your girlfriend, for the next 50 years? Personally I'd prefer that person to simply be eaten by sharks, but that's neither here or there. The problem is that this sounds like a totally privatized prison system, which I am vehemently against.
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bobgoodheart1st mattig89ch
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mattig89ch
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by mattig89ch on Nov 27, 2017 0:12:10 GMT
I'm not sure I'd agree. I would actually value a murderer's life less then a non-murderer's life. Don't forget, these people can (and sometimes do) take life in prison's. They have committed an act that is considered evil, and is just wrong (by most standards). But your ok with paying for these people to get 3 square meals a day, a warm roof over their heads, and an easy life? But I like that syberian prison idea. Forcing convicts to earn enough money to feed and clothe themselves. Though how you'd go about doing that is the question I don't know how to answer.
Why???
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Although I think describing prison as easy miiigghhhttt be a bit of an understatement Theres a reason why some criminals kill themselves instead of facing a life behind bars.
What makes them just as valuable as people who contribute to society? They took a life, they committed a serious crime. How does that not make them less valuable? Yea, I'd be in that camp. But thats more fear then anything else. I have no experience with prison. I only have a fear of it. But if I was to commit a crime, that would end me up in supermax, I'd be sure to off myself before I got arrested.
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