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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 27, 2017 0:39:02 GMT
Why???
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Although I think describing prison as easy miiigghhhttt be a bit of an understatement Theres a reason why some criminals kill themselves instead of facing a life behind bars.
What makes them just as valuable as people who contribute to society? They took a life, they committed a serious crime. How does that not make them less valuable? Yea, I'd be in that camp. But thats more fear then anything else. I have no experience with prison. I only have a fear of it. But if I was to commit a crime, that would end me up in supermax, I'd be sure to off myself before I got arrested. I don't think it's so much a matter of the inherent value we believe any specific person should have (something I'd rather the state not really delve too deeply into anyway), but rather holding to a certain standard when assuming responsibility for the lives of people that are incarcerated. The goal should be to remove people proven to be a danger to society from the public, and to rehabilitate the ones with potential to rejoin it at some point. I get that the subject of this thread is about what we do with the worst of the lot, rather than, say parole violators, thieves and drug dealers, but if we're talking about whether or not taxpayer dollars should even pay for maintaining them, is this suggesting private-run prisons? Putting aside that they would get government subsidies anyway, I don't see what problem they're really supposed to solve.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Nov 27, 2017 6:39:11 GMT
Pathological altruism is strong in this thread...
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 27, 2017 7:28:39 GMT
Pathological altruism is strong in this thread... I don't think that word is being used quite correctly.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Nov 27, 2017 12:37:17 GMT
Pathological altruism is strong in this thread... I don't think that word is being used quite correctly. I should have phrased it better. Indeed I was amazed by the number of people convinced to approve the capital punishment. But some really want to help and maintain the rapists and cruel murderers! Despite people telling them that those convicts are scum and the lives taken/ruined were much more precious.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 18:49:21 GMT
Why???
Also yes, Im very happy to pay for people to be in prison. Although I think describing prison as easy miiigghhhttt be a bit of an understatement Theres a reason why some criminals kill themselves instead of facing a life behind bars.
What makes them just as valuable as people who contribute to society? They took a life, they committed a serious crime. How does that not make them less valuable? Yea, I'd be in that camp. But thats more fear then anything else. I have no experience with prison. I only have a fear of it. But if I was to commit a crime, that would end me up in supermax, I'd be sure to off myself before I got arrested. I dont think you answered what I said Judging the value of someones life based on how they contribute to society is... well. Is there a word for how bad that is??? Even if someone commits a terrible act, they are still a person with hopes, dreams, values, experiences... that doesnt change. Their life is still a life, and theyre still a person. Nothing changes. I don't think that word is being used quite correctly. I should have phrased it better. Indeed I was amazed by the number of people convinced to approve the capital punishment. But some really want to help and maintain the rapists and cruel murderers! Despite people telling them that those convicts are scum and the lives taken/ruined were much more precious. I dont want to help rapists and murderers (I think you should listen ). I have serious issues with people who murder and cause people to suffer... which is kind of the point. Some people in this thread are discussing murder and torture as if they mean nothing, and talking about how much people deserve to suffer and die. While also mentioning how bloodthirsty and depraved criminals are. Riiiggghhhhttt. This entire thread comes down to "Look at the people who torture, murder and rape! Lets slice off their heads, shoot them and torture them!" A more important question than the best way to execute criminals would be: how many people in this thread would score high on a test for psychopathy, and how many have morals identical (or similar) to the criminals they want to punish???
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 27, 2017 20:14:58 GMT
I don't think it's so much a matter of the inherent value we believe any specific person should have (something I'd rather the state not really delve too deeply into anyway), but rather holding to a certain standard when assuming responsibility for the lives of people that are incarcerated. The goal should be to remove people proven to be a danger to society from the public, and to rehabilitate the ones with potential to rejoin it at some point. I get that the subject of this thread is about what we do with the worst of the lot, rather than, say parole violators, thieves and drug dealers, but if we're talking about whether or not taxpayer dollars should even pay for maintaining them, is this suggesting private-run prisons? Putting aside that they would get government subsidies anyway, I don't see what problem they're really supposed to solve. The state or government's role should be to punish the criminal not house them in comfort, tv, games, provide a learning of a trade or job skill so they can be productive on the outside, if they do get out. Job skills should be up to the individual just the same as a law abiding person. And not a reward for committing a crime: get free job training and money. In the article posted above inmates incarcerated for relatively minor crimes are complaining about working outside and getting paid while serving time. They are pushing the boundaries and want the salary of law abiding citizens who had to work and compete for those jobs. Where will that end. "Still, when they’re at work, the inmates look like chain gangs without the chains, especially when out working in Malibu, where the average annual household income is $238,000. ‘‘The pay is ridiculous,’’ La’Sonya Edwards, 35, told me during a break from clearing a fire road. ‘‘There are some days we are worn down to the core,’’ she said. ‘‘And this isn’t that different from slave conditions. We need to get paid more for what we do.’’ Edwards makes about $500 a year in camp, plus whatever she earns while on the fire line, which might add up to a few hundred dollars in a month; the pay for a full-time civilian firefighter starts at about $40,000."And this is in a separate camp where they already have it better than the average inmate, yet they want more from the government. And since this thread is about heinous crimes is rehabilitation and letting them rejoin society a good idea for people who murder, torture, and rape children and adults. Kind of forgetting about the victims. Punishment alone doesn't solve the problem, and, as usual, it's markedly shortsighted. I disagree with you - I think vocational skills ought to be taught in prisons (as many are) as a means of educating a populace, which never hurts and provides an outlet for many inmates to constructively apply their efforts rather than resort to recidivism because society thinks they're 'bad from the start.' Plus, you actually give them a marketable skill to use outside of prison when their time is up - or do you think they should be publicly ostracized and condemned for life to the point of returning to crime? As I said, it's hopelessly shortsighted and grounded in the ideas of a moral panic. Personally, I have no concern whatsoever if the inmates are paid the same as any outside law abiding citizen: the work the inmate puts in and the work the LAC puts in are equal, all things considered - they had to put their energies into education somehow, and at the end of the day, I'd rather have qualified bodies to do the job. And if it's inmates that have the bodies, then so be it. If it keeps them out of the pen, that can only be a positive. And really, this case of 'inmates being paid the same as everybody else if not more' is, at best, grossly exaggerated.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 27, 2017 20:20:03 GMT
What makes them just as valuable as people who contribute to society? They took a life, they committed a serious crime. How does that not make them less valuable? Yea, I'd be in that camp. But thats more fear then anything else. I have no experience with prison. I only have a fear of it. But if I was to commit a crime, that would end me up in supermax, I'd be sure to off myself before I got arrested. I dont think you answered what I said Judging the value of someones life based on how they contribute to society is... well. Is there a word for how bad that is??? Even if someone commits a terrible act, they are still a person with hopes, dreams, values, experiences... that doesnt change. Their life is still a life, and theyre still a person. Nothing changes. Lauren, your point wasn't clearly stated. It's more than just by the value of their societal contribution - it's about the health and maintenance of a society in combination with fundamental law and order. To put it another way, it's basically utilitarianism 101: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and your philosophy, pacifistic and superficially altruistic as it is, simply does not account for untenable cross-purposes - one person wants one thing, and kills for it. Other persons are threatened, and have a justifiable right to defense and justice in that pursuit. You're not accounting for that. A person can be a person, even after a murder, but the thing is, you're not applying that to the countless other people who do (and in many cases justifiably) feel threatened by the actions and intent of said murderer. I'm not saying to kill them, but they're most assuredly not going to be indulged in any way.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 28, 2017 1:47:08 GMT
Punishment alone doesn't solve the problem, and, as usual, it's markedly shortsighted. I disagree with you - I think vocational skills ought to be taught in prisons (as many are) as a means of educating a populace, which never hurts and provides an outlet for many inmates to constructively apply their efforts rather than resort to recidivism because society thinks they're 'bad from the start.' Plus, you actually give them a marketable skill to use outside of prison when their time is up - or do you think they should be publicly ostracized and condemned for life to the point of returning to crime? As I said, it's hopelessly shortsighted and grounded in the ideas of a moral panic. Personally, I have no concern whatsoever if the inmates are paid the same as any outside law abiding citizen: the work the inmate puts in and the work the LAC puts in are equal, all things considered - they had to put their energies into education somehow, and at the end of the day, I'd rather have qualified bodies to do the job. And if it's inmates that have the bodies, then so be it. If it keeps them out of the pen, that can only be a positive. And really, this case of 'inmates being paid the same as everybody else if not more' is, at best, grossly exaggerated. Hawkeye, did you read the article? Please don't assume what I am thinking there in bolded because you got that out of thin air. And the italics part where do you get that from it's not a quote from me nor did I post that. In the article the girls are in a privileged position, better off than the majority prison population, they are being taught skills that they can take and apply in the real world and are being paid yet they are complaining about it - too hard work, not paid enough, working in a rich area. It seems they feel they are owed by government and society in general. They are not just out of luck or down on their luck they chose to be criminals and break the law. Society has a responsibility to punish lawbreakers and use that as a deterrent. Society does not bear the responsibility to remake them. Given what the article states, how many do you think will continue in that trade if they get out or stay with a job in the long term if they can't handle being given a cushier imprisonment and job skills inside. Sure, some people will rehabilitate themselves and become productive citizens - those that are willing to work on themselves. Throwing money and skills at them is not a guarantee that they will. It comes from within the person. If it works for some of these girls then that's great, kudos to them and I hope they make it. I believe we have had this discussion or very similar already Hawkeye and we both agreed to disagree. I didn't read the article, but given the implication in your previous post, in your own words, as well as in this one, again in your own words, that you don't believe that investing resources into actually reforming criminals by and large - instead, just punishing them which 'deters' them from committing crimes (hint hint, it doesn't; a deterrent would only work if the criminal 1) expected to be caught, 2) didn't think there was enough of a payout to risk being caught, or 3) was in dire enough straights to judge committing the crime as better than not committing the crime (the classic 'steal my bread to feed my family' scenario, which, legit or not, is all too real of an issue in developing communities and countries. See a lot of addiction cases for that one.) So yeah, I think the bolded form is something that you seem to be peddling, whether you realize it or not. If it's not, I'll back down. But before I do, I'll ask it plainly: Do you believe that most criminals are scum that shouldn't have resources invested in their correction and rehabilitation, just punishment? Now, basically, what you're doing is taking one case of a logical extreme and, admit it or not, trying to push it as the norm with that article. And for the italicized part... you did question whether an inmate should be compensated to the same level for the same work for skills they earned as any other law abiding citizen, did you not? And you are complaining that you believe that it's pointless to try to reform criminal behavior since it's 'all from the inside.' I'll ask another direct question: do you believe that criminal attitudes are internal and the result of a bad egg? But back to it, I'm stating my belief in the italicized part that the whole point that is being raised by you regarding prison attitudes/compensation/job skills/etc. is that, in my opinion, it's not a pertinent issue and beside the point. Again, if that's not the point, I'll back off. Are you... are you seriously comparing employment with prison? If you're saying that, whew, I feel bad for you and encourage a career readjustment, stat. If the article is peddling that, then it sounds like fake news.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Nov 28, 2017 2:01:50 GMT
I didn't read the article, but given the implication in your previous post, in your own words, as well as in this one, again in your own words, that you don't believe that investing resources into actually reforming criminals by and large - instead, just punishing them which 'deters' them from committing crimes (hint hint, it doesn't; a deterrent would only work if the criminal 1) expected to be caught, 2) didn't think there was enough of a payout to risk being caught, or 3) was in dire enough straights to judge committing the crime as better than not committing the crime (the classic 'steal my bread to feed my family' scenario, which, legit or not, is all too real of an issue in developing communities and countries. See a lot of addiction cases for that one.) So yeah, I think the bolded form is something that you seem to be peddling, whether you realize it or not. If it's not, I'll back down. But before I do, I'll ask it plainly: Do you believe that most criminals are scum that shouldn't have resources invested in their correction and rehabilitation, just punishment? Now, basically, what you're doing is taking one case of a logical extreme and, admit it or not, trying to push it as the norm with that article. And for the italicized part... you did question whether an inmate should be compensated to the same level for the same work for skills they earned as any other law abiding citizen, did you not? And you are complaining that you believe that it's pointless to try to reform criminal behavior since it's 'all from the inside.' I'll ask another direct question: do you believe that criminal attitudes are internal and the result of a bad egg? But back to it, I'm stating my belief in the italicized part that the whole point that is being raised by you regarding prison attitudes/compensation/job skills/etc. is that, in my opinion, it's not a pertinent issue and beside the point. Again, if that's not the point, I'll back off. Are you... are you seriously comparing employment with prison? If you're saying that, whew, I feel bad for you and encourage a career readjustment, stat. If the article is peddling that, then it sounds like fake news. No. Hawkeye you didn't read the article. You assumed what I was saying. Now you are telling me what I am saying and accusing me of the bolded parts in your posts. Obviously you are upset and have nothing to stand on. I am done here. You can argue your silly points to the air. Less of an assumption and more of recognition of 'between the lines' matters, but whatever. PM sent. Also, I clearly asked you to clarify and gave you ample room to do so. The door's still open, if you want.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Nov 28, 2017 7:05:04 GMT
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