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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 3:17:31 GMT
You think the only sin, if someone kills his/her own hands? Oh! I almost forget, what a bloodthirsty was Fenris! Pray tell, what terrible sins did those people commit then? Yes, Fenris was bloodthirsty. He literally stays in Danarius' house to draw Danarius to him so he can kill him, or any people Danarius sends. Danarius and company aren't exactly innocent.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 3:17:57 GMT
Are you trolling me, or is your translation software mistranslating my posts? Why should I weary myself when I have already answered? Okay. I repeat: he was pursued.
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Post by phoray on Sept 30, 2016 3:18:48 GMT
Pray tell, what terrible sins did those people commit then? Yes, Fenris was bloodthirsty. He literally stays in Danarius' house to draw Danarius to him so he can kill him, or any people Danarius sends. Danarius and company aren't exactly innocent. The closest to an innocent companion in DA2 is Merrill.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 30, 2016 3:20:13 GMT
Pray tell, what terrible sins did those people commit then? Yes, Fenris was bloodthirsty. He literally stays in Danarius' house to draw Danarius to him so he can kill him, or any people Danarius sends. Danarius and company aren't exactly innocent. I know. I already said that. Doesn't change what Fenris does though. Are you trolling me, or is your translation software mistranslating my posts? Why should I weary myself when I have already answered? Okay. I repeat: he was pursued. I agree he was pursued, but that doesn't disprove Fenris was thirsty for Danarius' blood like you said it did.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2016 3:20:24 GMT
Are you trolling me, or is your translation software mistranslating my posts? Why should I weary myself when I have already answered? Okay. I repeat: he was pursued. My understanding is that he wanted a confrontation and wanted to kill those people. Sure, he had to, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Though I think the fact that he did, after all, have to kill most of the people he winds up killing makes the whole thing less heinous. (Killing his sister is less excusable, even if I suppose I get why he'd want to.)
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Post by leadintea on Sept 30, 2016 3:24:41 GMT
Dorian was rather insufferable, IMO. He was full of himself despite not really doing anything and I disliked how they tried to turn all his flaws into positive traits (felt a bit too Gary Stu-ish for my liking).
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 3:28:51 GMT
Danarius and company aren't exactly innocent. I know. I already said that. Doesn't change what Fenris does though. Why should I weary myself when I have already answered? Okay. I repeat: he was pursued. I agree he was pursued, but that doesn't disprove Fenris was thirsty for Danarius' blood like you said it did. His behavior is totally unacceptable! Indeed ... Now I am really outraged.
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Post by Sifr on Sept 30, 2016 3:34:20 GMT
To be honest, we've had a lot of murderers along for the ride.
Duncan: Conscripted after accidentally killing a Grey Warden he was robbing. Oghren: Accidentally killed a man in his berserker rage during a Proving. Loghain: Justified or not, ordered a retreat at Ostagar and consigned those left in the valley to die. Orders a hit on the Warden. Morrigan: Murdered numerous Templars with Flemeth as a "game", albeit in self-defense. Velanna: Murdered countless humans are being duped into thinking they kidnapped her sister. Nathaniel: Tries to assassinate the Warden. Zevran: Antivan hitman who tried to assassinate the Warden. Sten: Murdered an entire farmhold in a blind rage after losing his sword. Leliana: Killed countless people as a bard. Shale: Murdered her former master, although it's unclear whether it was intentional or not. Anders: May have killed his Templar captors in Vigil's Keep, although he claims they were killed by darkspawn. Fenris: Cut down a village of Fog Warriors who'd taken him in, after Danarius found him and ordered him to kill them. Cole: Killed people under the mistaken belief he was "helping" them. Sera: Kills nobles who deserve it, in her estimation.
Blackwall admitting in Val Royeaux that he "gave the order" seems to imply that he was not actually present for the massacre, which also would explain how he managed to get away unlike the majority of his men. His explanation in the dungeon that his men knew war and mistakenly assumed that Callier's children were targets as well, further implies he wasn't present and why he's haunted by the death of those children.
That's not to say that Blackwall is innocent, but I'd say he's more guilty of accessory and conspiracy to commit murder.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 3:35:37 GMT
Why should I weary myself when I have already answered? Okay. I repeat: he was pursued. My understanding is that he wanted a confrontation and wanted to kill those people. Sure, he had to, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Though I think the fact that he did, after all, have to kill most of the people he winds up killing makes the whole thing less heinous. (Killing his sister is less excusable, even if I suppose I get why he'd want to.) Yes, but it is easy to convince him to not to do. The word: bloodthirsty does not fit him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 30, 2016 3:37:26 GMT
Blackwall admitting in Val Royeaux that he "gave the order" seems to imply that he was not actually present for the massacre, which also would explain how he managed to get away unlike the majority of his men. His explanation in the dungeon that his men knew war and mistakenly assumed that Callier's children were targets as well, further implies he wasn't present and why he's haunted by the death of those children. That's not to say that Blackwall is innocent, but I'd say he's more guilty of accessory and conspiracy to commit murder. He heard the nursery rhyme the children were singing in the carriage right before it was attacked. Rainier was there in person.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2016 3:40:16 GMT
To be honest, we've had a lot of murderers along for the ride. Duncan: Conscripted after accidentally killing a Grey Warden he was robbing. Oghren: Accidentally killed a man in his berserker rage during a Proving. Loghain: Justified or not, ordered a retreat at Ostagar and consigned those left in the valley to die. Orders a hit on the Warden. Morrigan: Murdered numerous Templars with Flemeth as a "game", albeit in self-defense. Velanna: Murdered countless humans are being duped into thinking they kidnapped her sister. Nathaniel: Tries to assassinate the Warden. Zevran: Antivan hitman who tried to assassinate the Warden. Sten: Murdered an entire farmhold in a blind rage after losing his sword. Leliana: Killed countless people as a bard. Shale: Murdered her former master, although it's unclear whether it was intentional or not. Anders: May have killed his Templar captors in Vigil's Keep, although he claims they were killed by darkspawn. Fenris: Cut down a village of Fog Warriors who'd taken him in, after Danarius found him and ordered him to kill them. Cole: Killed people under the mistaken belief he was "helping" them. Sera: Kills nobles who deserve it, in her estimation. Blackwall admitting in Val Royeaux that he "gave the order" seems to imply that he was not actually present for the massacre, which also would explain how he managed to get away unlike the majority of his men. His explanation in the dungeon that his men knew war and mistakenly assumed that Callier's children were targets as well, further implies he wasn't present and why he's haunted by the death of those children. That's not to say that Blackwall is innocent, but I'd say he's more guilty of accessory and conspiracy to commit murder. Oh, right, the Fog Warriors. That puts the discussion about whether or not Fenris is guilty of heinous acts to bed, doesn't it? I think the banter with Cole implies that Blackwall was present when it happened, though. Cole starts singing the song that the children sang, apparently one they sang as they died. For Cole to do that doesn't require that Blackwall was present, since Cole is able to comfort Iron Bull after he's declared Tal-Vashoth by reading his tamassran's mind from across the damn ocean and telling Bull she's glad he escaped, but that wouldn't explain why Blackwall recognizes that song.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 3:41:13 GMT
To be honest, we've had a lot of murderers along for the ride. Duncan: Conscripted after accidentally killing a Grey Warden he was robbing. Oghren: Accidentally killed a man in his berserker rage during a Proving. Loghain: Justified or not, ordered a retreat at Ostagar and consigned those left in the valley to die. Orders a hit on the Warden. Morrigan: Murdered numerous Templars with Flemeth as a "game", albeit in self-defense. Velanna: Murdered countless humans are being duped into thinking they kidnapped her sister. Nathaniel: Tries to assassinate the Warden. Zevran: Antivan hitman who tried to assassinate the Warden. Sten: Murdered an entire farmhold in a blind rage after losing his sword. Leliana: Killed countless people as a bard. Shale: Murdered her former master, although it's unclear whether it was intentional or not. Anders: May have killed his Templar captors in Vigil's Keep, although he claims they were killed by darkspawn. Fenris: Cut down a village of Fog Warriors who'd taken him in, after Danarius found him and ordered him to kill them. Cole: Killed people under the mistaken belief he was "helping" them. Sera: Kills nobles who deserve it, in her estimation. Blackwall admitting in Val Royeaux that he "gave the order" seems to imply that he was not actually present for the massacre, which also would explain how he managed to get away unlike the majority of his men. His explanation in the dungeon that his men knew war and mistakenly assumed that Callier's children were targets as well, further implies he wasn't present and why he's haunted by the death of those children. That's not to say that Blackwall is innocent, but I'd say he's more guilty of accessory and conspiracy to commit murder. Andes not killed the Templars. Anders not innocent, but I do not think he killed them. Loghain's greatest sin was the slave trade – as I see. The other can be declared a strategic decision. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors, yes. But I feel like it belongs to another matter. But yes, we don't have innocent companion. I just try to say this.
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Post by Sifr on Sept 30, 2016 3:45:17 GMT
Yes, but it is easy to convince him to not to do. The word: bloodthirsty does not fit him. Most of the people that Fenris kills are slavers, who travelled all the way to the Free Marches to apprehend him, despite the slave trade being illegal outside the Imperium. As such, Fenris was well within his rights to defend himself and those slavers brought their fate upon themselves. That Fenris' stated intention for staying in Danarius' mansion was meant to serve as him throwing down the gauntlet and daring his former master to "Come at me, bro!" is irrelevant... outside the Imperium he's legally a free man.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2016 3:48:19 GMT
Yes, but it is easy to convince him to not to do. The word: bloodthirsty does not fit him. Most of the people that Fenris kills are slavers, who travelled all the way to the Free Marches to apprehend him, despite the slave trade being illegal outside the Imperium. As such, Fenris was well within his rights to defend himself and those slavers brought their fate upon their hands. That Fenris' stated intention for staying in Danarius' mansion was meant to serve as him throwing down the gauntlet and daring his former master to "Come at me, bro!" is irrelevant... outside the Imperium he's legally a free man. I'd argue he'd be justified even if he still was in the Imperium. The Imperium wouldn't, but I think they voided their right to have an opinion on slavery when they made it legal.
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Post by Sifr on Sept 30, 2016 4:01:17 GMT
Oh, right, the Fog Warriors. That puts the discussion about whether or not Fenris is guilty of heinous acts to bed, doesn't it? Not necessarily, as Fenris admits that he only following Danarius' command because he felt like it was useless to resist his master. Carrying out that deed was enough to make him realise that he'd rather run to the end of Thedas than remain a slave and follow such orders for a second longer. As for the Fog Warriors, while it's understandable why they hate the Qunari and Imperium for occupying their country, we know that doesn't stop them from carrying out their own heinous acts against the innocent citizens of those nations who happen to live on Seheron. They might be resistance fighters doing what they must, but can we say they are innocent either, given that they kill a lot of people in their own right, even if they do occasionally throw the odd bone to help escaped slaves like Fenris? (Although at this point, we're starting to reach the point whether it's easier to agree that no-one is innocent, as Future!Leliana noted)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 4:03:44 GMT
Yeah, uh sorry, but Solas. Than Blackwall. Solas wouldn't even be my dislike list if he wasn't trying to destroy the world...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 4:13:09 GMT
I actually like them all, but i tend to always like the companions in Bioware games.
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Post by phoray on Sept 30, 2016 4:17:07 GMT
To be honest, we've had a lot of murderers along for the ride. Duncan: Conscripted after accidentally killing a Grey Warden he was robbing. Oghren: Accidentally killed a man in his berserker rage during a Proving. Loghain: Justified or not, ordered a retreat at Ostagar and consigned those left in the valley to die. Orders a hit on the Warden. Morrigan: Murdered numerous Templars with Flemeth as a "game", albeit in self-defense. Velanna: Murdered countless humans are being duped into thinking they kidnapped her sister. Nathaniel: Tries to assassinate the Warden. Zevran: Antivan hitman who tried to assassinate the Warden. Sten: Murdered an entire farmhold in a blind rage after losing his sword. Leliana: Killed countless people as a bard. Shale: Murdered her former master, although it's unclear whether it was intentional or not. Anders: May have killed his Templar captors in Vigil's Keep, although he claims they were killed by darkspawn. Fenris: Cut down a village of Fog Warriors who'd taken him in, after Danarius found him and ordered him to kill them. Cole: Killed people under the mistaken belief he was "helping" them. Sera: Kills nobles who deserve it, in her estimation. Blackwall admitting in Val Royeaux that he "gave the order" seems to imply that he was not actually present for the massacre, which also would explain how he managed to get away unlike the majority of his men. His explanation in the dungeon that his men knew war and mistakenly assumed that Callier's children were targets as well, further implies he wasn't present and why he's haunted by the death of those children. That's not to say that Blackwall is innocent, but I'd say he's more guilty of accessory and conspiracy to commit murder. Andes not killed the Templars. Anders not innocent, but I do not think he killed them. Loghain's greatest sin was the slave trade – as I see. The other can be declared a strategic decision. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors, yes. But I feel like it belongs to another matter. But yes, we don't have innocent companion. I just try to say this. I love Anders. He didn't kill those Templars, but the Templar group he encounters shortly after merging with Justice he burns to a pulp with lightning. I like the line in Origins where the Warden can say, "We're all killers, Alistair." It's the reality of every character in Dragon Age. And self defense is an argument, but in real life, there is a point where it stops being self defense and becomes murder again. Again...love Anders.
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Post by duckley on Sept 30, 2016 5:04:39 GMT
While I find Blackwell to be a sanctimonious, arrogant hypocrite, I also detest Vivienne, Bull and Sera.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2016 5:32:36 GMT
Oh, right, the Fog Warriors. That puts the discussion about whether or not Fenris is guilty of heinous acts to bed, doesn't it? Not necessarily, as Fenris admits that he only following Danarius' command because he felt like it was useless to resist his master. Carrying out that deed was enough to make him realise that he'd rather run to the end of Thedas than remain a slave and follow such orders for a second longer. I see how that mitigates what he did, but I don't see how it makes it not at all heinous that he payed them back for taking him in with murder. Do we know that they carry out heinous acts against the innocent citizens of Tevinter and Qunadar? I seem to recall Bull saying they leave civilians well alone, and he implies that Tevinter slaves routinely disappear during their attacks. I dunno. The Fog Warriors are resisting two (arguably) evil empires, and if what Bull says is true they don't hit civilians. They might qualify.
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Post by Cantina on Sept 30, 2016 5:48:25 GMT
I have never ever in any game that has companions, loathed one as much as I do Vivienne. Recruiting her once was enough, never again. How's she losing to Solas, though, given that he intends to kill you? In fact, how is anyone, even "Blackwall," losing to Solas? Fair question.
Look, I don't mind Blackwall, he made a mistake and is trying to be a better person. I will say however Blackwall's romance really creeps me out. That being said Blackwall joined the Inquisition to help with the crisis even knowing that his lie and his past could come out. He gets double props for that. Not to mention he is a good tank and his banter with Solas and Sera is hilarious.
Solas, well, he reminds me too much of Spock. That being said its hard to judge someone based on actions that happen at the end of the game. Plus Solas did save my character's life twice and once for the Inquisition. Its seems only fair( from my perspective) to try and save him from himself.
As for Vivienne, well I can write a very very long post about this beotch. Vivienne just uses peoples for her own personal gain. You never can tell with The Iron B***h if she is lying and/or scheming. Then you toss in the fact she is a selfish rude hypocrite who believes what she says it right and you are wrong. And I get no joy or satisfaction from speaking to her, just a massive migraine and deep desire to punch Vivienne right square in the jaw.
At least with Solas his motive is direct, whereas with Vivienne you never know what that snake is up too.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 30, 2016 8:21:47 GMT
How's she losing to Solas, though, given that he intends to kill you? In fact, how is anyone, even "Blackwall," losing to Solas? Fair question.
Look, I don't mind Blackwall, he made a mistake and is trying to be a better person. I will say however Blackwall's romance really creeps me out. That being said Blackwall joined the Inquisition to help with the crisis even knowing that his lie and his past could come out. He gets double props for that. Not to mention he is a good tank and his banter with Solas and Sera is hilarious.Fair. I'm not even saying I dislike the guy. Just that he's done worse than Vivienne has. Solas, well, he reminds me too much of Spock. That being said its hard to judge someone based on actions that happen at the end of the game. Plus Solas did save my character's life twice and once for the Inquisition. Its seems only fair( from my perspective) to try and save him from himself.
As for Vivienne, well I can write a very very long post about this beotch. Vivienne just uses peoples for her own personal gain. You never can tell with The Iron B***h if she is lying and/or scheming. Then you toss in the fact she is a selfish rude hypocrite who believes what she says it right and you are wrong. And I get no joy or satisfaction from speaking to her, just a massive migraine and deep desire to punch Vivienne right square in the jaw.
At least with Solas his motive is direct, whereas with Vivienne you never know what that snake is up too. [/i][/font] [/quote] Solas saved you so he can use you. He used you to close the rifts, and at the end of Inquisition he saves even an Inquisitor he doesn't like because they're making the world more stable. He's also been lying to you all game. For comparison's sake, Vivienne is perfectly open about what she wants: she wants to have the chaos stop, she wants the new world to be much the same as the old, and she wants to be on top. As far as I remember the only time she ever deceives us is when she manipulates a guy who made a crack about her skin tone into attacking us so she can look like the hero, which while not something I condone is less severe than the lies Rainier and Solas tell us. Solas has got both of Vivienne's more serious flaws, coupled with a plan Vivienne wouldn't dream of carrying out. He's just more polite about them.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 9:21:54 GMT
Andes not killed the Templars. Anders not innocent, but I do not think he killed them. Loghain's greatest sin was the slave trade – as I see. The other can be declared a strategic decision. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors, yes. But I feel like it belongs to another matter. But yes, we don't have innocent companion. I just try to say this. I love Anders. He didn't kill those Templars, but the Templar group he encounters shortly after merging with Justice he burns to a pulp with lightning. I like the line in Origins where the Warden can say, "We're all killers, Alistair." It's the reality of every character in Dragon Age. And self defense is an argument, but in real life, there is a point where it stops being self defense and becomes murder again. Again...love Anders. And there is the point: "in the real life" Thedas is not our world. In such a game, for me at least, a little bit different the moral standard. Anders, Fenris, Blackwall and the others (most of them at least) committed their sins, in a cruel world. I think we should not feel uncomfortable ourselves if we forgive them or/and like them (included the antagonists).
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 30, 2016 9:35:33 GMT
They are wrong though, he is not boring. He is great, and fun, and a gentleman. BUT I guess a genocidal elf is less loathsome. I am 100% salty. Distant hypothetical numbers that haven't been killed yet vs actual detailed information about innocents harmed makes a difference between how appalling someone can sound. We don't know the people who got killed at the meeting, but we can guess there were only adults so it's easier than if we hear stories about kids getting harmed. Solas' actions are also motivated by selfless causes vs Blackwall's greed so it depends on who you ask. Okay, now here's the thing, it's not just about what they've done and they're going to do, there's more to it than that. But let's start with Solas' actions. How can you say he is not selfless? Selfless would be being considerate of other peoples lives. He is doing the exact opposite. He is willing to throw away Thedas to get what he wants, he wants HIS world back, he wants the civilization he is part of to strive. While he says that he wishes he wouldn't have to destroy this world, that doesn't nullify the fact that he is going to, and probably feel nothing as he gets his world back. His loyalty is not to Thedas, nor the people of Thedas, but his world, him, it's all about what he feels and what he thinks, and he does what he wants, no matter what the repercussions, because he is determined. Isn't that selfish? He is selfish. He is greedy, and no amount of I'm sorries can make his stand less selfish. But he is apologetic, just a little bit, about those repercussions, which is good, and that makes him more sympathetic. If he could save everyone, he could, nice to hear. But he is willing to go through lengths of destruction just to get what he wants back, and that is selfish. That is a selfish cause, and for anyone to say they aren't, BYE! Now, what would be selfless of Solas, was to realize that his actions keep on destroying lives, and learn to live with the fact that his world is sealed away, and the world he lives now, that has life, is worth something, and it's his home now. THAT would be selfless, that would be considerate. But, he is a villain, so that's not going to be the case. And I'm not faulting him of being a villain. But claiming Solas is selfless and what he is doing is a selfless cause strikes a nerve with me. Now with Blackwall, what he did was wrong, OF COURSE. But the ended up taking responsibility, one way or another. He rolls with the punches, and admits he deserves them, and he also realizes that nothing he can do can change what he did. But he still tries, for all good it does. If you give him another chance, if you let him free, he devotes his life to helping people. And that's what is so great about him. His actions cannot be forgiven by some, and he will bear that grudge for a life time, but he will atone and do good, even knowing that that doesn't change the past. He tries to better himself. It's pretty sick how people can write off Blackwall as lowly, pathetic criminal scum, when yes, he was and probably is, but he is a human, and the story he goes through is extremely relevant to a lot of our lives, because I'm sure we all have things we regret doing or saying, and would rather run away from our responsibilities than face them head on. In the end, Blackwall does take responsibility, and that's part of the reason why I like him. When it comes to Solas' personality, I've seen people comment that he is open-minded, considerate, polite, intelligent. All of those are true IF you are on his good side and agree with him. Of course, that's obvious, we like people we agree with. But go ahead and disagree with him and see how nice, considerate, open-minded and intelligent he is then. He disapproves A LOT if you disagree with his views. Now, an intelligent person, or a considerate person, would realize that hey, we have different opinions, and I can live with that. With Solas, no, you get a biiig disapproval for not agreeing with him. Now, I realize we aren't talking about a high school debate, but still. And if you get the disapproval scene with him, he says something in the vain of '' From the stories I've heard, I hear you people are brutes. AND NOW I KNOW I WAS RIGHT '' which basically says to me, he looks down to everyone until they've proven themselves to completely agree with him. Yikes. Sorry for the rant, but I've had to let it out. I'm not attacking you and I'm not angry or annoyed at you, just general statements about characters that keep being tossed around this community. Justice for Blackwall, and less circlejerk for Solas. Both are great characters. They both have their positives and negatives. Sadly it seems Solas' negatives are either ignored or made light of, because he is this or he feels like that or whatever, and Blackwall's negatives are wildly exaggerated at times.
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∯ Alien Wizard
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 30, 2016 11:50:40 GMT
I appreciate all the companions as reasonably well-written fictional characters, but I really don't like Sera. Crude, intolerant and wilfully ignorant, she's about the definition of "not my type". Yes, she's also funny and refreshingly disrespectful of authority - which is I why I keep her around regardless - but that can't make up for the unpleasant traits.
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