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Post by QuizzyBunny on Nov 29, 2017 12:06:57 GMT
Not directly linked to Mass Effect, but I found this quote very interesting and telling about how EA is currently thinking about gaming. In this interview here: www.vg247.com/2017/11/29/ea-visceral-star-wars-game-canned-because-players-dont-like-linear-games-as-much-as-they-used-to/amp/they say about Visceral's now killed Star Wars game that "As we kept reviewing the game, it continued to look like a much more linear game [which] people don’t like as much today as they did five years ago or ten years ago". To me it explains a lot about the direction we saw with Andromeda, and also to some extent Inquisition; the games are made wider and bigger, but because of this the narrative loses focus. Is it true that people don't like linear games anymore? Does this mentality impact Bioware, and if so how? Do you think this kind of thinking affected the production of Andromeda? Is there a connection between this and the industry's love of microtransactions? What are your thoughts about this?
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Nov 29, 2017 12:40:27 GMT
I think there is some truth there at least for me, fex. in ME series, ME2 is worst for me because its so linear and has almost zero RPG left from 1.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 29, 2017 12:40:48 GMT
BioWare's RPGs have NEVER been "linear" though, they always have had choices that allow you to alter the narrative (to an extent). Linearity or non-linearity have nothing to do with other issues.
Andromeda sucks because they wasted literally years on procedural generation tech that went nowhere. Developing a game requires many elements developed by totally different groups of people to work together. You can't write a strong, focused narrative when they keep scrapping the environments and starting over.
The industry loves microtransactions because they make money. That's really all there is to it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 12:59:26 GMT
Linear experience is not and should not be confused with single player, but EA seem to have this problem. There is nothing at all wrong with single player games, in fact there should be a lot more of them. EA's problem is that it bolts multiplayer games onto single player games. That in effect means they don't concentrate on either and both seem a bit meh. Add to that microtransactions (where they basically rape your wallet).
The killing of Viscerals canned star wars game, along with the shitstorm that is Battlefront 2 Loot crates, and EA might be heading towards losing it's Star Wars license. Bioware has been very very lucky that it has not fallen victim (yet) to EA's Company merger (Murder) Scheme.
It's only a matter of time.
Oh and Andromeda sucks because..... Mac Walters.
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Post by abaris on Nov 29, 2017 13:06:45 GMT
People may not like linear games, but I don't think they're excited over empty open worlds either. Well, going by this board, some are, some aren't. Count me to the second group in saying, if you do open world then do it right. Just a map filled with generic stuff doesn't cut it. And on a personal not, I've got nothing against linear either. It all depends on the setting and the narrative. Which is the most important part of both approaches. Entirely lost on MEA, in my opinion.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Nov 29, 2017 13:09:18 GMT
Well, BF2 is very much a linear campaign as well. So is Naughty Dog games, hell they thrive on them and Horizon Zero Dawn. While yes, it's an open world, its a very set path narrative with no choice in it's story. So, the fact that linear games don't work anymore is bs. People still care about them, I just think that Viscereal Star Wars game wasn't any good and they then think that means gamers "don't care." I would take a shorter game over a 60-80 game with annoying filler. Like Origins has.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 29, 2017 13:10:37 GMT
EA doesn't feel.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Nov 29, 2017 13:50:34 GMT
I realize that Bioware games are not linear the same way for example The Uncharted-series is, but the narrative and structure of the games have become less linear over time. Compare ME2 and ME:A and that is very apparent. This is just speculation, and although neither ME or DA falls into the exact correct category I do think there is something to gain from discussing this. Besides, not like we have that many other things to discuss that isn't just a re-hash of the last 6 months...
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Nov 29, 2017 14:30:03 GMT
Yeah, like Addison, A beep boop in a flesh suit.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 29, 2017 22:54:23 GMT
I realize that Bioware games are not linear the same way for example The Uncharted-series is, but the narrative and structure of the games have become less linear over time. Compare ME2 and ME:A and that is very apparent. This is just speculation, and although neither ME or DA falls into the exact correct category I do think there is something to gain from discussing this. Besides, not like we have that many other things to discuss that isn't just a re-hash of the last 6 months... How is MEA less linear than ME2? The main story is very very linear in both. The only non linear aspect is side quests and squadmate loyalty missions, in both. ME1 is actually less linear than both because you could decide which main mission planet to visit first. And yet it all ends the same way anyway. So still pretty linear overall. Open world filler quests do NOT make a game less linear for me. It just gives you meaningless crap to do in between the linear main story.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 29, 2017 23:00:22 GMT
Well they aren't wrong. Gamers seem to like bitching about 'open world games' but then list off a dozen exceptions. Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Rock star games. The list goes on.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 29, 2017 23:12:55 GMT
Well they aren't wrong. Gamers seem to like bitching about 'open world games' but then list off a dozen exceptions. Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Rock star games. The list goes on. Yes, open world continues to be popular. It would have been more accurate to proclaim that gamers don't really care about story all that much. They like competing and collecting shit. Don't think that's something new though. EA is just spouting excuses for their profit maximizing multiplayer approach. They are not wrong about the popularity of online shooters, though. It only makes sense to cater to that then. Doesn't mean there is no market for story heavy single player games anymore if that's what they meant. See the games you listed. I couldn't care less how many uninspired cash grabs EA released if they didn't kill off all diversity in all their games. Can't they let one or two studios do something different, you know?
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Post by colfoley on Nov 29, 2017 23:16:24 GMT
Well they aren't wrong. Gamers seem to like bitching about 'open world games' but then list off a dozen exceptions. Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Rock star games. The list goes on. Yes, open world continues to be popular. It would have been more accurate to proclaim that gamers don't really care about story all that much. They like competing and collecting shit. Don't think that's something new though. EA is just spouting excuses for their profit maximizing multiplayer approach. They are not wrong about the popularity of online shooters, though. It only makes sense to cater to that then. Doesn't mean there is no market for story heavy single player games anymore if that's what they meant. See the games you listed. I couldn't care less how many uninspired cash grabs EA released if they didn't kill off all diversity in all their games. Can't they let one or two studios do something different, you know? well they are. As far as we know DA 4 is still happening and this year they released both MEA and Battlefront 2. Games with significant single player components and BF 2 even is supposed to have SP DLC.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 29, 2017 23:40:55 GMT
Just last year Uncharted 4 sold quite well and got great reviews, it was a linear game.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 29, 2017 23:49:06 GMT
Honestly, I don't see why anyone should take what EA says seriously. They are full of shit.
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Post by Darkstarr11 on Nov 30, 2017 0:22:05 GMT
Just last year Uncharted 4 sold quite well and got great reviews, it was a linear game. Executives sound like they are projecting. Rather, THEY don't want linear games. Anything they say should be taken with a grain...nay, a BAG of salt. Watch the sodium though. This year has proven they have a REALLY poor understanding of their customers...
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 30, 2017 1:50:16 GMT
Just last year Uncharted 4 sold quite well and got great reviews, it was a linear game. Executives sound like they are projecting. Rather, THEY don't want linear games. Anything they say should be taken with a grain...nay, a BAG of salt. Watch the sodium though. This year has proven they have a REALLY poor understanding of their customers... That's the understatement of the century.
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Post by clips7 on Nov 30, 2017 3:14:11 GMT
As far as EA is concerned, they are just focused on their bottom line and that is profits. In all honesty ALL gaming companies are in the business to make money. With EA and over the years in just watching how they function, it seems like more and more with each interview or statement you hear from them just sounds like more suits trying to dictate what a game should be....and that is what is ruining the gaming culture at the moment.
I was fine with ME2 linear path...there's was a few side-missions that you could have performed and along the way maybe you pick up some equipment or weapons that you could use. I was also happy with ME3 campaign....linear, but the story was compelling, driven and focused.....I appreciate Andromeda's take on open world, but the planet hopping and then the uninspired side missions made the overall experience fall flat....
In short, i would take a linear, story focused game over an open world game with boring side quests.....with Anthem it seems EA is focusing on yet another MP first experience and SP experience second. Even Dead Space 3 with it's more action oriented gameplay had side-missions that was incredibly interesting and you was pleasantly rewarded at the end of those side missions...not to mention that those side missions had you walking down tight, narrow dark corridors which was just as compelling as the main story.....they also gave you further insight as to what was happening on the planet and the people that was there before you arrived.
Andromeda's side missions lacked any depth or interesting elements...you did them and then it was over with some xp as the reward.....
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 30, 2017 3:57:54 GMT
Just last year Uncharted 4 sold quite well and got great reviews, it was a linear game. Uncharted 4 is the culmination of a decade-long series that concludes the story of an iconic character. Star Wars is a much older IP with a broader appeal, sure, but it also has a long history of producing complete garbage. Star Wars fans would be wary, or SHOULD be, if they're smart. Mainstream consumers of the films would not necessarily be interested in a game that focuses on entirely new characters, and lacks the familiar elements of Jedi and the Force. The fact that Amy Hennig was helming the development means nothing to people who aren't already big fans of Naughty Dog's work, and even with that cred, Hennig does not represent the sum of Naughty Dog's creative talent. Many people contributed to making the Uncharted series great. If I was the one pouring money into the project, I would not be swayed by "This example of the genre performed well, so ours will as well". Mario games perform consistently well, but that doesn't have any relevance to the success of a new platformer IP with unfamiliar characters.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 30, 2017 4:34:17 GMT
Just last year Uncharted 4 sold quite well and got great reviews, it was a linear game. Uncharted 4 is the culmination of a decade-long series that concludes the story of an iconic character. Star Wars is a much older IP with a broader appeal, sure, but it also has a long history of producing complete garbage. Star Wars fans would be wary, or SHOULD be, if they're smart. Mainstream consumers of the films would not necessarily be interested in a game that focuses on entirely new characters, and lacks the familiar elements of Jedi and the Force. The fact that Amy Hennig was helming the development means nothing to people who aren't already big fans of Naughty Dog's work, and even with that cred, Hennig does not represent the sum of Naughty Dog's creative talent. Many people contributed to making the Uncharted series great. If I was the one pouring money into the project, I would not be swayed by "This example of the genre performed well, so ours will as well". Mario games perform consistently well, but that doesn't have any relevance to the success of a new platformer IP with unfamiliar characters. I have no idea if the game would have actually succeeded, but an Uncharted style Star Wars game sound like something that has a lot of potential.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 30, 2017 4:56:07 GMT
Uncharted 4 is the culmination of a decade-long series that concludes the story of an iconic character. Star Wars is a much older IP with a broader appeal, sure, but it also has a long history of producing complete garbage. Star Wars fans would be wary, or SHOULD be, if they're smart. Mainstream consumers of the films would not necessarily be interested in a game that focuses on entirely new characters, and lacks the familiar elements of Jedi and the Force. The fact that Amy Hennig was helming the development means nothing to people who aren't already big fans of Naughty Dog's work, and even with that cred, Hennig does not represent the sum of Naughty Dog's creative talent. Many people contributed to making the Uncharted series great. If I was the one pouring money into the project, I would not be swayed by "This example of the genre performed well, so ours will as well". Mario games perform consistently well, but that doesn't have any relevance to the success of a new platformer IP with unfamiliar characters. I have no idea if the game would have actually succeeded, but an Uncharted style Star Wars game sound like something that has a lot of potential. Well we're never gonna know now, and that sucks, but everything I've heard about the game suggests that it was a risky proposition to begin with, and I'm not convinced that the excuse EA gave is necessarily the truth. Kotaku has an article (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/kotaku.com/the-collapse-of-viscerals-ambitious-star-wars-game-1819916152/amp) that claims there were several ongoing issues behind the scenes, and that it eventually just ended up not being worth the money that EA had already put into it, which is a common problem for risky passion projects across all creative industries. We like to whine about studios churning out endless, bland reiterations on COD and FIFA, but the fact is that the profits from those proven mainstream sellers subsidize the development costs of the niche-appeal games we actually want to play.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 30, 2017 6:40:43 GMT
I have no idea if the game would have actually succeeded, but an Uncharted style Star Wars game sound like something that has a lot of potential. Well we're never gonna know now, and that sucks, but everything I've heard about the game suggests that it was a risky proposition to begin with, and I'm not convinced that the excuse EA gave is necessarily the truth. Kotaku has an article (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/kotaku.com/the-collapse-of-viscerals-ambitious-star-wars-game-1819916152/amp) that claims there were several ongoing issues behind the scenes, and that it eventually just ended up not being worth the money that EA had already put into it, which is a common problem for risky passion projects across all creative industries. We like to whine about studios churning out endless, bland reiterations on COD and FIFA, but the fact is that the profits from those proven mainstream sellers subsidize the development costs of the niche-appeal games we actually want to play. Yup, sometimes it sucks to not be a majority consumer.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Nov 30, 2017 10:33:10 GMT
Ultimately I feel that EA are trying to put all their eggs in one basket, while burying their head in the sand.
Being blind to customer feedback & blaming the fans for not liking what they insist we should like is a foolish move, after all, they're still going to put the LB's back into SWBF2 as soon as enough time has passed for the storm to settle & maybe they might be less predatory, so have they learned anything from that? No, I don't think so.
As for linear games being less popular than they were a few years ago, I don't think so, I own a fair few actually & they can give me hours of enjoyment, hell, I plan to get Resi 7 Gold edition soon, a linear game that has been given free SP dlc.
So no, in my opinion linear games are something that should continue to be made, after all, not everyone likes the same, but will EA realise this & diversify their projects? Probably not, not unless there's a major shift in the market & sad as it is to say MP & LB's are a cash cow EA will milk dry.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Nov 30, 2017 15:33:14 GMT
If I had to choose between a railroaded game that won't even give you the option to turn left or right and a big open world game full of emptiness and boredom I'll ALWAYS go with the first.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 30, 2017 16:04:29 GMT
If I had to choose between a railroaded game that won't even give you the option to turn left or right and a big open world game full of emptiness and boredom I'll ALWAYS go with the first. Kind of a loaded choice, no? The boredom qualifier could be attached to either option. All you are really saying is that you won't choose a boring game, so what? Railroaded games can have very interesting characters and stories. Open world games can have lots of interesting things to see and do, and some interesting characters and story. Which one is preferred is more a matter of taste than anything else.
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