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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 30, 2022 21:43:31 GMT
god damn it, they're going to just completely shit all over the original material, even more than they did in the Hobbit, aren't they? The era the show is covering wasn't fully explored by Tolkien so the show is basically fan fiction instead of it being a proper adaption, but i won't underestimate the showrunners' potential to introduce numerous retcons, and plot holes that conflicts with the lore from Tolkien's published works. yeah I guess its better they shit on that than shit on the Silmarillion material, but still... jesus fucking christ
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 1, 2022 5:28:54 GMT
The era the show is covering wasn't fully explored by Tolkien This would be true if they were only going to deal with the period when the rings were created and stayed in Middle Earth. However, they seem to be including a later era of Numenor as part of their compressed timeline and this was expanded on by Tolkien in his narrative of the downfall of that kingdom. Now it is entirely possible that they tried to buy the rights to his other works but this was refused. However, it is rather convenient that by only buying the rights to the LoTR and the appendices, they can use the limited detail in latter as justification for their own invented narrative. Essentially, if technically it doesn't contradict what Tolkien wrote because he didn't write very much (apart from compressing several thousand years into a few decades) they feel they are okay. The problem is that unless you maintain strict control through what the rights grant over any script produced, as Tolkien did whilst he was alive, Amazon were always going to do as they pleased with it. This is a risk that any author runs when they allow the rights to be sold out of their control. This is sounding worse with each clarification. The focus on Numenor should have been centered on their ME colonies while we are only given a brief glimpse of Pharazon, and Sauron to give context behind Elendil's abandonment of the kingdom. On top of compressing all the 2nd era events they might confuse people who didn't read the books because a lot of context will be lost. At this point i'm glad Malazan Book of The Fallen, and The Black Company won't be adapted in my lifetime.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 1, 2022 12:06:33 GMT
The focus on Numenor should have been centered on their ME colonies while we are only given a brief glimpse of Pharazon, and Sauron to give context behind Elendil's abandonment of the kingdom. This is why I think it odd they seem to have condensed so much of the timeline. The history of Numenor and its colonies would have been tailor made for them if they wanted to go with current attitudes. After all, the Numenorians started their interaction with the people of southern Middle Earth as friendly teachers but progressively became more corrupt and overbearing, eventually tyrants, which Sauron was able to capitalise on when he wanted to recruit the southerners both in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. They weren't naturally evil in siding with him but hated the Numenorians for what they had done in essentially enslaving them and, guess what, the men of the south had darker skins. Peter Jackson avoided the hot potato of depicting them as such because no doubt he feared the reaction with them appearing to be shown as evil, even though Tolkien made it clear through Sam's thoughts on the matter that in fact they had been tricked by the emissaries of Sauron. I find it amusing that PJ was being "politically correct" in casting them as evil white guys. What also seems strange is that the first Queen of Numenor was around the time that Saruon was wooing the elves of Eregion but her name was Tar-Ancalime and it was during her reign that the Numenorians first started to establish permanent colonies in Middle Earth. From what I can tell from the appendices, it was Sauron's fear of the growing strength of Numenor that caused him to pursue the creation of the rings of power. Then after the one ring was created and Sauron started a war with the Eldar of Eriador, it was her descendant who sent forces in support of the elves and Sauron was defeated for the first time. This would have made a neat narrative for the Rings of Power. Then a subsequent show could have been about the Rise and Fall of Numenor. Continuity between the two could be provided by the elven characters and the bearers of the rings in the other races. Even this would likely result in condensing of the timeline considerably but not as much as seems the case from what has been revealed. On a side note, it will be interesting to see how they introduce the palantir. Now I understood they were created, like the Silmarils, by Feanor and were heirlooms of the Noldor until they gifted them to the House of Andunie that became the later faithful (including Elendil) in the 2nd Age. So, whilst I think they were gifted by the Noldor who had returned to Valinor and then to Eressea, from where they visited Numenor in the early days, I can see how they could instead have them given by Galadriel, which would account for her visiting there (even though not mentioned in any of Tolkien's writing). Yet in that short clip it would seem that this is something that she is being introduced to for the first time by the Queen of Numenor. Still, editing can lead to misconceptions so it may be shown rather differently in the actual narrative.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 1, 2022 16:51:04 GMT
The focus on Numenor should have been centered on their ME colonies while we are only given a brief glimpse of Pharazon, and Sauron to give context behind Elendil's abandonment of the kingdom. This is why I think it odd they seem to have condensed so much of the timeline. The history of Numenor and its colonies would have been tailor made for them if they wanted to go with current attitudes. After all, the Numenorians started their interaction with the people of southern Middle Earth as friendly teachers but progressively became more corrupt and overbearing, eventually tyrants, which Sauron was able to capitalise on when he wanted to recruit the southerners both in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. They weren't naturally evil in siding with him but hated the Numenorians for what they had done in essentially enslaving them and, guess what, the men of the south had darker skins. Peter Jackson avoided the hot potato of depicting them as such because no doubt he feared the reaction with them appearing to be shown as evil, even though Tolkien made it clear through Sam's thoughts on the matter that in fact they had been tricked by the emissaries of Sauron. I find it amusing that PJ was being "politically correct" in casting them as evil white guys. What also seems strange is that the first Queen of Numenor was around the time that Saruon was wooing the elves of Eregion but her name was Tar-Ancalime and it was during her reign that the Numenorians first started to establish permanent colonies in Middle Earth. From what I can tell from the appendices, it was Sauron's fear of the growing strength of Numenor that caused him to pursue the creation of the rings of power. Then after the one ring was created and Sauron started a war with the Eldar of Eriador, it was her descendant who sent forces in support of the elves and Sauron was defeated for the first time. This would have made a neat narrative for the Rings of Power. Then a subsequent show could have been about the Rise and Fall of Numenor. Continuity between the two could be provided by the elven characters and the bearers of the rings in the other races. Even this would likely result in condensing of the timeline considerably but not as much as seems the case from what has been revealed. On a side note, it will be interesting to see how they introduce the palantir. Now I understood they were created, like the Silmarils, by Feanor and were heirlooms of the Noldor until they gifted them to the House of Andunie that became the later faithful (including Elendil) in the 2nd Age. So, whilst I think they were gifted by the Noldor who had returned to Valinor and then to Eressea, from where they visited Numenor in the early days, I can see how they could instead have them given by Galadriel, which would account for her visiting there (even though not mentioned in any of Tolkien's writing). Yet in that short clip it would seem that this is something that she is being introduced to for the first time by the Queen of Numenor. Still, editing can lead to misconceptions so it may be shown rather differently in the actual narrative. It's a good idea, but I don't think that they know how to do it without it devolving into their narcissistic viewpoint.
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 1, 2022 20:11:29 GMT
The focus on Numenor should have been centered on their ME colonies while we are only given a brief glimpse of Pharazon, and Sauron to give context behind Elendil's abandonment of the kingdom. This is why I think it odd they seem to have condensed so much of the timeline. The history of Numenor and its colonies would have been tailor made for them if they wanted to go with current attitudes. After all, the Numenorians started their interaction with the people of southern Middle Earth as friendly teachers but progressively became more corrupt and overbearing, eventually tyrants, which Sauron was able to capitalise on when he wanted to recruit the southerners both in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. They weren't naturally evil in siding with him but hated the Numenorians for what they had done in essentially enslaving them and, guess what, the men of the south had darker skins. Peter Jackson avoided the hot potato of depicting them as such because no doubt he feared the reaction with them appearing to be shown as evil, even though Tolkien made it clear through Sam's thoughts on the matter that in fact they had been tricked by the emissaries of Sauron. I find it amusing that PJ was being "politically correct" in casting them as evil white guys. Jackson took the easiest way out because the non book reading viewers would quickly denounce him as racist for portraying blacks as allies of Sauron, and if he wanted to stay true to the lore but address future accusations he would need to film scenes that fleshes out the Haradrims' motives. If we take into account TTT's/RoTK's runtimes, and budget restraints the later option seems unfeasible versus changing their race which is a cheap, and easy fix to any potential outrage. Thanks to timeline compression Miriel will probably be given all of her predecessors' accomplishments in order to not confuse the average viewer with all the names because Elros' family line, and their feats is expansive. I think the trailer might have been edited poorly because it would make no sense for Galadriel a FE elf to not know what a palantir is whereas her being surprised that the Numenorian royals have a still working palantir would make more sense. Mind you if we're wrong about the clip's accuracy to the actual show then we all know Amazon's about to go full Disney with the lore.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 2, 2022 10:31:03 GMT
whereas her being surprised that the Numenorian royals have a still working palantir would make more sense. Not really considering they were gifted not one but seven stones and during the Second Age there was no reason to think anything might have happened to them, since they were gifted to the Andunie after they had taken up residence on the island. Now finding a working palantir in the Third Age was more of a surprise because so many of them had been lost or captured by the enemies of the Dunedain. Even Gandalf had no idea that the palantir of Orthanc had been recovered by Saruman, or suspected that Denethor had been using the one in Minas Tirith because, as he explains to Pippin, the White Council had never considered the subject of the fate of the stones but they were still well aware of what they were and their origins. However, one thing he does explain the Pippin is that they could see both other places in the present and delve into the past to show visions of the time when they were created, so presumably any history in which the Noldor, the original keepers of the stones, had been involved since then, so Galadriel seeing both past and present would be in keeping with this and since she has great strength of mind, she could command the stone to show her what she wished to see, although she would also be aware the it is sometimes better to let these magic items be free of compulsion to get the most useful visions. What I also find intriguing is that the magic involved is very similar to that used in the mirror of Galadriel, except it can also show visions of the future and was specifically made by her. In the show may be she will be prompted to do this after seeing the palantir. In the lore she would seem to have done it independently, although probably drawing on the same elf magic used to create the Stones, showing the the art of Feanor hadn't entirely died with him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 2, 2022 10:58:30 GMT
I think the biggest disappointment with both later Star Wars treatments and LoT, even in the film but definitely this latest TV series, is the way in which physical power seems more important than mental power. When the first Star Wars came out, I remember how people were really taken with Obi Wan not just because of the Jedi light sabre but the mental control he exhibited. The same was true of Darth Vadar. The emphasis was on telepathic powers rather than telekinetic.
With Tolkien, the true power of Galadriel is in her mind. Peter Jackson did bring this out when he had her making mental contact with Elrond and I think it is also mentioned in her conversation with Frodo. Her magic is what keeps Lothlorien safe and allows her glimpses into the mind of Sauron where it concerns elves, whilst preventing him from seeing hers. I think the argument the script writers are making is that this is something she developed subsequent to the period they are covering but she is one of the Eldar from the dawn of time and stayed in Middle Earth when she could have returned to Valinor at the end of the First Age but chose not to and if she was able to created her Mirror with the similar sort of magic to that employed by Feanor, I would imagine her other powers were present from the beginning as well. The trouble is it seems everything these days has to be physically impressive.
On a small side issue; the elves are noted for not using either saddle or bridle when mounted on horses. This does not require prior training as Legolas was able to do this in the book with a horse loaned him by the Eomer even though it was said to have a fiery temper. Once again, it is a form of telepathic mind magic exhibited by the elves that allows them to bond with any creature not specifically corrupted by the enemy. Gandalf is obliged to do the same with Shadowfax because the stallion would not suffer any restraints but chose to aid him. At least they kept that in the film. However, there is a slight contradiction to this by Tolkien himself, since when Glorfindel catches up with Strider and the hobbits, his horse has a bridle with bells and a saddle with stirrups that he shortens for Frodo, so I'll forgive them overlooking this bit of lore when Galadriel, and any other elf, is shown mounted on a horse with regular equipment.
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Post by q5tyhj on Aug 2, 2022 21:52:46 GMT
I think the argument the script writers are making is that this is something she developed subsequent to the period they are covering but she is one of the Eldar from the dawn of time and stayed in Middle Earth when she could have returned to Valinor at the end of the First Age but chose not to and if she was able to created her Mirror with the similar sort of magic to that employed by Feanor, I would imagine her other powers were present from the beginning as well... Well and iirc Tolkien was pretty consistent in the Silmarillion about how the elves that had been to Valinor (the Calaquendi) became more powerful than the other kindred of elves solely in virtue of having lived in the Deathless lands in the presence of the Valar and/or having seen the untained Light that came before the sun and moon. And iirc, its at least implied that this was something that waned over time for the Noldor who had returned to Middle Earth.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2022 3:07:23 GMT
whereas her being surprised that the Numenorian royals have a still working palantir would make more sense. Not really considering they were gifted not one but seven stones and during the Second Age there was no reason to think anything might have happened to them, since they were gifted to the Andunie after they had taken up residence on the island. Now finding a working palantir in the Third Age was more of a surprise because so many of them had been lost or captured by the enemies of the Dunedain. Even Gandalf had no idea that the palantir of Orthanc had been recovered by Saruman, or suspected that Denethor had been using the one in Minas Tirith because, as he explains to Pippin, the White Council had never considered the subject of the fate of the stones but they were still well aware of what they were and their origins. However, one thing he does explain the Pippin is that they could see both other places in the present and delve into the past to show visions of the time when they were created, so presumably any history in which the Noldor, the original keepers of the stones, had been involved since then, so Galadriel seeing both past and present would be in keeping with this and since she has great strength of mind, she could command the stone to show her what she wished to see, although she would also be aware the it is sometimes better to let these magic items be free of compulsion to get the most useful visions. What I also find intriguing is that the magic involved is very similar to that used in the mirror of Galadriel, except it can also show visions of the future and was specifically made by her. In the show may be she will be prompted to do this after seeing the palantir. In the lore she would seem to have done it independently, although probably drawing on the same elf magic used to create the Stones, showing the the art of Feanor hadn't entirely died with him. Slight correction: we don't know exactly how many palantiri were given to Numenor by the elves. We just know that Elendil brought seven with him when Numenor was destroyed, It is actually plausible there were more.
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 3, 2022 3:31:46 GMT
whereas her being surprised that the Numenorian royals have a still working palantir would make more sense. Not really considering they were gifted not one but seven stones and during the Second Age there was no reason to think anything might have happened to them, since they were gifted to the Andunie after they had taken up residence on the island. Now finding a working palantir in the Third Age was more of a surprise because so many of them had been lost or captured by the enemies of the Dunedain. Even Gandalf had no idea that the palantir of Orthanc had been recovered by Saruman, or suspected that Denethor had been using the one in Minas Tirith because, as he explains to Pippin, the White Council had never considered the subject of the fate of the stones but they were still well aware of what they were and their origins. Thanks for this reminder. Hopefully Miriel's introduction of the planatiri is only due to her hubris, and it also allows the writers to explain their function to the audience. Good catch. Her interaction with the palantir had inspired her creation of the mirror would be a nice reference.
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Post by Noxluxe on Aug 6, 2022 20:56:58 GMT
I think the biggest disappointment with both later Star Wars treatments and LoT, even in the film but definitely this latest TV series, is the way in which physical power seems more important than mental power. When the first Star Wars came out, I remember how people were really taken with Obi Wan not just because of the Jedi light sabre but the mental control he exhibited. The same was true of Darth Vadar. The emphasis was on telepathic powers rather than telekinetic. With Tolkien, the true power of Galadriel is in her mind. Peter Jackson did bring this out when he had her making mental contact with Elrond and I think it is also mentioned in her conversation with Frodo. Her magic is what keeps Lothlorien safe and allows her glimpses into the mind of Sauron where it concerns elves, whilst preventing him from seeing hers. I think the argument the script writers are making is that this is something she developed subsequent to the period they are covering but she is one of the Eldar from the dawn of time and stayed in Middle Earth when she could have returned to Valinor at the end of the First Age but chose not to and if she was able to created her Mirror with the similar sort of magic to that employed by Feanor, I would imagine her other powers were present from the beginning as well. The trouble is it seems everything these days has to be physically impressive. I'd be more likely to say that they've taken physical power much more lightly, almost suggesting that it's just a superficial extension of mental power by the way characters suddenly gain huge and inconsistent boosts in their combat ability based on their resolve in any given moment... while completely underserving the concept of mental power by totally failing to develop that resolve in any meaningful or coherent fashion, and utterly devaluing experience, actual strong personal values to draw motivation from, strategy and especially discipline, as you say. The message I'm getting isn't "Power comes from the physical!", it's "Power comes easily if you're a good guy, and it can manifest however you want against whomever you hate as long as you really really really want it to! Don't even need to work on it, or think about how you use it! Just remember to really really want it to, and you're kicking ass!" Because the writers these days are children and can't write anything more ethically, socially or physically complicated than a schoolyard rivalry that just comes to expression in the simplest way possible. The heroine beating the big bad bully up to prove that she's powerful, and the writer tagging 'bullying is wrong' on the list of themes because they know they're supposed to even though the narrative they've told doesn't support that at all. In that sense you could definitely make the case that there's an increased emphasis on characters dominating and defeating their adversaries in combat compared to the old days, as opposed to truly engaging with the enemy strategically, diplomatically or philosophically. That requires a level of narrative maturity and refinement that's just beyond the kinds of writers hired for these movies and shows nowadays.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 9:00:09 GMT
I'd be more likely to say that they've taken physical power much more lightly, almost suggesting that it's just a superficial extension of mental power by the way characters suddenly gain huge and inconsistent boosts in their combat ability based on their resolve in any given moment... Yes, you are right, I probably just didn't explain that well, although I did say the emphasis is on telekenetic rather than telepathic powers. It is as though they have taken the assertion "if you have faith, you can move mountains" rather too literally! "Power comes easily if you're a good guy, and it can manifest however you want against whomever you hate as long as you really really really want it to! Don't even need to work on it, or think about how you use it! Just remember to really really want it to, and you're kicking ass!" It is a pity but they do seem to have adopted the attitude of "might is right" and naturally every tyrant in history has imagined they are on the side of virtue. Now when you are dealing with the Superhero genre then it is pretty much what you expect but Tolkien is different. The strongest characters on the side of good are fully capable of physically protecting themselves if necessary but their true moral superiority is in having the ability to mentally dominate others and yet not use it except against those who are trying to dominate those weaker than themselves or in holding back true evil. They also appreciate that you cannot resort to the methods of the enemy and yet remain unsullied by it. Galadriel understood this as she resists the temptation to take the One Ring when freely offered to her and as she also explains to Sam when he thinks she should have done so: "You'd make some folk pay for their dirty work." Her response: "I would. That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas." She would rather destroy the Ring and "diminish and go into the west and remain Galadriel." This is true of all the powerful good characters in the story, who at some point have to pass the same test: Aragorn, Gandalf, Faramir, even Elrond considering Frodo was at one point helpless and under his protection. However, it should perhaps be remembered that Tolkien said that if his narrative had been an allegory of the real world, then " the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved and Baradur would not have been destroyed but occupied" and of course the other bearers of the three elf rings would not have had to surrender their power in order to defeat him. Meanwhile, Saruman, having failed to gained possession of the One, would " in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into ring lore and before long would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled ruler of Middle Earth."
Actually, another aspect where I took issue with Peter Jackson's adaptation of the trilogy was in how he depicted Isildur in not destroying the ring when he had the chance and Elrond's attitude towards humans because of it. Yes, it was having a subtle effect on Isidur's mind preventing him from doing so but, let's face it, he never actually used the ring, even though Elrond suspected that it might have eventually overcome his will had he not been killed. As for Elrond being so contemptuous of humans for their weakness and Aragorn saying to Arwen in the film that he has the same weakness as his ancestor, well apparently not because he had the hobbits in his power all the way from Bree to Rivendale and did not abuse that trust, even when Frodo was close to death/corruption into a wraith and there was extreme danger of the enemy recovering it. It was Sauron who believed that no one having the One Ring in their possession would seek to destroy it because he was incapable of understanding the attitude of the truly virtuous towards the use of power. Anyway, Tolkien's sentiments can be found in the Forward to the Lord of the Rings, so I hope the current writers bore this in mind when creating their own narrative.
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Post by Noxluxe on Aug 7, 2022 12:26:04 GMT
Actually, another aspect where I took issue with Peter Jackson's adaptation of the trilogy was in how he depicted Isildur in not destroying the ring when he had the chance and Elrond's attitude towards humans because of it. Yes, it was having a subtle effect on Isidur's mind preventing him from doing so but, let's face it, he never actually used the ring, even though Elrond suspected that it might have eventually overcome his will had he not been killed. As for Elrond being so contemptuous of humans for their weakness and Aragorn saying to Arwen in the film that he has the same weakness as his ancestor, well apparently not because he had the hobbits in his power all the way from Bree to Rivendale and did not abuse that trust, even when Frodo was close to death/corruption into a wraith and there was extreme danger of the enemy recovering it. It was Sauron who believed that no one having the One Ring in their possession would seek to destroy it because he was incapable of understanding the attitude of the truly virtuous towards the use of power. I think it was done in order to give Aragorn a more clear-cut hero's journey. Him having stronger reason to be ashamed of Isildur's failure to doom Sauron and that tying in to his insecurity about claiming power and responsibility for himself is pretty classic coming-of-age material. But I do remember feeling that Isildur must have been underserved by those flashbacks given how venerated he is by the Gondorians. While it's possible that his cutting the ring off Sauron's finger all by itself was enough to turn him into a legend, the way his name seems chiseled into their culture feels like he must have been a great hero or ruler in his own right for reasons we just never see or hear about. I'd argue that him knowing to put the ring on to escape the ambush that kills him is evidence that he had at least experimented with it in the movies' canon. And the general tone of the scene implies that he's using it as a good-luck charm and tool of intimidation in military situations at minimum. I was never clear on specifically how the power of the ring could be turned to conquest, but it certainly feels like the movies want you to think that Gondor's success under him was at least partially on account of his reliance on the ring. If the books make a point of that not being the case then yeah, looks like he was pretty much thrown under the bus to shore up Aragorn's character arc. And I agree that Aragorn's whole 'I don't want power' journey works much better on paper than in the films. He was supposed to have been played by a younger actor if memory serves, which might have helped a lot, but the fact that Viggo Mortensen plays him as such a composed veteran who naturally seems to take charge when need be makes his rejection of his heritage seem more weirdly irresponsible and selfish than immature exactly, and his refusal of the ring more perfunctory than a true test of character. Maybe his fear of "Isildur's weakness" was supposed to balance and justify that somewhat.
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Post by Hier0phant on Aug 7, 2022 14:57:38 GMT
However, it should perhaps be remembered that Tolkien said that if his narrative had been an allegory of the real world, then " the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved and Baradur would not have been destroyed but occupied" and of course the other bearers of the three elf rings would not have had to surrender their power in order to defeat him. Meanwhile, Saruman, having failed to gained possession of the One, would " in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into ring lore and before long would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled ruler of Middle Earth."
The nuclear arms race.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 7, 2022 16:07:54 GMT
I'd be more likely to say that they've taken physical power much more lightly, almost suggesting that it's just a superficial extension of mental power by the way characters suddenly gain huge and inconsistent boosts in their combat ability based on their resolve in any given moment... Yes, you are right, I probably just didn't explain that well, although I did say the emphasis is on telekenetic rather than telepathic powers. It is as though they have taken the assertion "if you have faith, you can move mountains" rather too literally! "Power comes easily if you're a good guy, and it can manifest however you want against whomever you hate as long as you really really really want it to! Don't even need to work on it, or think about how you use it! Just remember to really really want it to, and you're kicking ass!" It is a pity but they do seem to have adopted the attitude of "might is right" and naturally every tyrant in history has imagined they are on the side of virtue. Now when you are dealing with the Superhero genre then it is pretty much what you expect but Tolkien is different. The strongest characters on the side of good are fully capable of physically protecting themselves if necessary but their true moral superiority is in having the ability to mentally dominate others and yet not use it except against those who are trying to dominate those weaker than themselves or in holding back true evil. They also appreciate that you cannot resort to the methods of the enemy and yet remain unsullied by it. Galadriel understood this as she resists the temptation to take the One Ring when freely offered to her and as she also explains to Sam when he thinks she should have done so: "You'd make some folk pay for their dirty work." Her response: "I would. That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas." She would rather destroy the Ring and "diminish and go into the west and remain Galadriel." This is true of all the powerful good characters in the story, who at some point have to pass the same test: Aragorn, Gandalf, Faramir, even Elrond considering Frodo was at one point helpless and under his protection. However, it should perhaps be remembered that Tolkien said that if his narrative had been an allegory of the real world, then " the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved and Baradur would not have been destroyed but occupied" and of course the other bearers of the three elf rings would not have had to surrender their power in order to defeat him. Meanwhile, Saruman, having failed to gained possession of the One, would " in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into ring lore and before long would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled ruler of Middle Earth."
Actually, another aspect where I took issue with Peter Jackson's adaptation of the trilogy was in how he depicted Isildur in not destroying the ring when he had the chance and Elrond's attitude towards humans because of it. Yes, it was having a subtle effect on Isidur's mind preventing him from doing so but, let's face it, he never actually used the ring, even though Elrond suspected that it might have eventually overcome his will had he not been killed. As for Elrond being so contemptuous of humans for their weakness and Aragorn saying to Arwen in the film that he has the same weakness as his ancestor, well apparently not because he had the hobbits in his power all the way from Bree to Rivendale and did not abuse that trust, even when Frodo was close to death/corruption into a wraith and there was extreme danger of the enemy recovering it. It was Sauron who believed that no one having the One Ring in their possession would seek to destroy it because he was incapable of understanding the attitude of the truly virtuous towards the use of power. Anyway, Tolkien's sentiments can be found in the Forward to the Lord of the Rings, so I hope the current writers bore this in mind when creating their own narrative. Heck they entire time in the Lord of the Rings, the goal of the Fellowship was not to acquire power to defeat Sauron, but to RELINQUISH power. To sacrifice their own power and authority, and make themselves less, to save the world. That's not something you see in most fantasy(or reality)
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Post by Iakus on Aug 7, 2022 16:16:49 GMT
Actually, another aspect where I took issue with Peter Jackson's adaptation of the trilogy was in how he depicted Isildur in not destroying the ring when he had the chance and Elrond's attitude towards humans because of it. Yes, it was having a subtle effect on Isidur's mind preventing him from doing so but, let's face it, he never actually used the ring, even though Elrond suspected that it might have eventually overcome his will had he not been killed. As for Elrond being so contemptuous of humans for their weakness and Aragorn saying to Arwen in the film that he has the same weakness as his ancestor, well apparently not because he had the hobbits in his power all the way from Bree to Rivendale and did not abuse that trust, even when Frodo was close to death/corruption into a wraith and there was extreme danger of the enemy recovering it. It was Sauron who believed that no one having the One Ring in their possession would seek to destroy it because he was incapable of understanding the attitude of the truly virtuous towards the use of power. I think it was done in order to give Aragorn a more clear-cut hero's journey. Him having stronger reason to be ashamed of Isildur's failure to doom Sauron and that tying in to his insecurity about claiming power and responsibility for himself is pretty classic coming-of-age material. But I do remember feeling that Isildur must have been underserved by those flashbacks given how venerated he is by the Gondorians. While it's possible that his cutting the ring off Sauron's finger all by itself was enough to turn him into a legend, the way his name seems chiseled into their culture feels like he must have been a great hero or ruler in his own right for reasons we just never see or hear about. I'd argue that him knowing to put the ring on to escape the ambush that kills him is evidence that he had at least experimented with it in the movies' canon. And the general tone of the scene implies that he's using it as a good-luck charm and tool of intimidation in military situations at minimum. I was never clear on specifically how the power of the ring could be turned to conquest, but it certainly feels like the movies want you to think that Gondor's success under him was at least partially on account of his reliance on the ring. If the books make a point of that not being the case then yeah, looks like he was pretty much thrown under the bus to shore up Aragorn's character arc. And I agree that Aragorn's whole 'I don't want power' journey works much better on paper than in the films. He was supposed to have been played by a younger actor if memory serves, which might have helped a lot, but the fact that Viggo Mortensen plays him as such a composed veteran who naturally seems to take charge when need be makes his rejection of his heritage seem more weirdly irresponsible and selfish than immature exactly, and his refusal of the ring more perfunctory than a true test of character. Maybe his fear of "Isildur's weakness" was supposed to balance and justify that somewhat. The parallels in the book were not of Aragorn and Isildur, but Aragorn and Beren. Both were given a seemingly impossible task to accomplish to win his beloved (Arwen was even supposed to greatly resemble her great-great grandmother Luthien). Beren to claim a Silmiril, Aragorn to reunite Elendil's kingdoms. Elrond was ambivalent about this union, since it would sunder him from the last of his children (his sons already choosing to remain in Middle Earth) Of curse, this would require more explanation in an already-long movie I suppose. Partly why I think a TRUELY faithful representation would require a three-season series. Also in the books, Isildur has possessed the One Ring for about two years prior to his death, and definitely experimented with it . Aragorn is supposed to be a "no longer young" man who's seen and done a lot. He's supposed to want the kingship, just not for his own sake, or for power, but because it's his duty to set things right.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 17:14:33 GMT
Yep, I think that is what Tolkien was getting at. My brother studied science and his professor once put the question to his research students: "What if you were to discover something akin to nuclear energy, that could both benefit people but also be misused as a terrible weapon, what would you do with it?" It was an interesting philosophical question for them to consider when potentially they could end up making such a discovery.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 17:21:31 GMT
Heck they entire time in the Lord of the Rings, the goal of the Fellowship was not to acquire power to defeat Sauron, but to RELINQUISH power. To sacrifice their own power and authority, and make themselves less, to save the world. That's not something you see in most fantasy(or reality) Which is why I think it captures the imagination in the way it does or at least that is the case with me. It is noticeable that in DAI Solas is convinced that no group of people have or ever will relinquish power once they have it and yet that is what Tolkien has both his elves and his human heroes do, although to some extent destroying the ring paves the way for the domination of the humans in Middle Earth, so they definitely don't lose as much as the elves willingly relinquish. It is clearly also why he didn't want it to be an allegory of the real world because people there did seem to conform more to what Solas believes is true and Tolkien didn't want that for his world and characters.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 17:28:46 GMT
Also in the books, Isildur has possessed the One Ring for about two years prior to his death, and definitely experimented with it . Yes, I forgot that he was actually wearing it when trying to escape the ambush but it slipped from his finger, resulting in his death. Still, that would seem to show that he wasn't that weak of will because he didn't seem to use it for much more then Bilbo did or Frodo for that matter. However, may be if he had possessed it for as long as Bilbo, it might have been different. Of curse, this would require more explanation in an already-long movie I suppose. Partly why I think a TRUELY faithful representation would require a three-season series. As I've said above, the BBC radio series was 26 hour long episodes which, depending on how many episodes and how long you imagine them to be, probably would equate to roughly a three season series on TV. Even then they still left out Tom Bombadil and some other minor details but did include the Scouring of the Shire. The cinematic version of LoTR did come across as a bit rushed in the latter two films but was a lot better in the extended cut on CD.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 18:09:48 GMT
And I agree that Aragorn's whole 'I don't want power' journey works much better on paper than in the films. He was supposed to have been played by a younger actor if memory serves, which might have helped a lot, but the fact that Viggo Mortensen plays him as such a composed veteran who naturally seems to take charge when need be makes his rejection of his heritage seem more weirdly irresponsible and selfish than immature exactly, and his refusal of the ring more perfunctory than a true test of character. Strangely enough the opposite was true. Peter Jackson explains on the "filming of" video on the CD that they started filming with the younger actor, who had recently featured in another movie and so was known to a younger audience, but a short way in PJ realised he had got the casting totally wrong and it needed someone with more gravitas and maturity. It was hard finding a replacement at short notice but Viggo was available and his son talked him into taking the part (because Viggo didn't want to be absent from his family for such a lengthy period) and the rest is history. PJ considered that he was exactly what he had wanted in Aragorn. Obviously, PJ and his script writers had their own ideas about Aragorn's motivations that were easier to show on screen than what is shown in the books. Aragorn was only 11 years old when Bilbo found the ring and Gandalf discovered the Necromancer of Dol Guldur was in fact Sauron. Part of the reason that Aragorn kept his identity secret for so long is that Sauron had returned and was seeking him as well as the One Ring. In fact during his youth, he didn't even know he was Isildur's heir, because Elrond had concealed his identity for his own safety but when Sauron retook Mordor and openly declared himself, he revealed his true name and lineage to him. He was aware of the fact that because Isildur had kept the ring, Sauron hadn't been destroyed, so for many years he just worked behind the scenes trying to keep people safe from the effects of his ancestor's mistake, whilst trying to find a way to undo it. At this point Aragorn was still only 20. Around the same time he first chanced upon Arwen newly returned to Rivendale from Lorien (since her grandmother was Galadriel), falling in love with her, although at this time she did not return it but Elrond perceived his heart and made it clear that he shouldn't pledge himself to any woman until fate had decided whether he should succeed in his endeavours or not but as for his own daughter he was aiming higher than he should. He also explained how if Arwen should return his love, then it would eventually doom father and daughter to be parted forever. So Aragorn didn't openly declare his love to Arwen for another 29 years and when she reciprocated it, Elrond insisted that he would only allow the match if Aragorn became once again the king of both Arnor and Gondor, which of course would entail defeating Sauron. Now that was a pretty big motivation without his additional feeling of responsibility for what Isildur had done which had been driving him up to then. Now I can see how it would be difficult to have shown all this on screen in the time available but I just feel that the motivation they replaced it with just didn't do him justice and I never had the impression from the books that Aragorn considered himself unworthy because he carried tainted blood, nor that Elrond thought the same.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2022 20:01:56 GMT
I've just realised how the screen writers on the Hobbit clearly didn't know (or perhaps care) about the timescales involved or the back story to Aragorn. At the end of the Battle of Five Armies movie, Thandruil, the Elf King (another character who was much maligned in his screen portrayal) tells his son, Legolas to go looking for the young ranger. However, as I point out above, at this stage Aragorn was only 11 years old and under a name, Estel, he had been known by since birth to conceal his identity, a secret which was known only to Elrond and not even by Aragorn himself. Ah dear, such is the problem with adapters trying to shoehorn in characters to link with their other movies, when they were never mentioned in the book.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 12, 2022 9:57:39 GMT
Something I also wonder about for people who claim they want to be inclusive when portraying characters in the series, why didn't they use actual people with dwarfism to play the dwarves? They could still be ethnically diverse because dwarfism isn't confined to any particular group of people.
Many years ago, during the 1980's I think, because it may have been made possible by the popularity of Time Bandits, I went to see a production of the Hobbit on stage where all the dwarves were played by actual people with dwarfism. I think the entire membership of Equity were likely needed but there were definitely several famous actors from that time, largely because of Time Bandits. (I know there was also the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi but you couldn't see their real faces). I seem to recall that Bilbo was just a fairly well known short actor and Gandalf, humans and elves were just people of regular height. Smaug was done along the lines of a Chinese dragon. This production was in a theatre in the south London suburbs but was a professional production. We went along out of curiosity and found it really enjoyable. It was also more faithful to the book than the latest film was.
Anyway, this thought occurs to me every time there is a movie in which dwarves feature but they just use camera trickery instead of real dwarves, who could do with a higher, positive profile, because of the amount of prejudice against them in everyday life.
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Post by cribbian on Aug 12, 2022 10:08:56 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 13, 2022 12:22:10 GMT
I have been re-reading some of the passages in LoTR about elves and Tolkien makes it absolutely clear that they are not simply humans with pointed ears. They exist simultaneously in both the material and spirit worlds, which most mortals cannot see but Frodo can when he is injured from the Morgul knife and hovering on the brink of the spirit world himself (this is also the case when he is wearing the ring). Not only can be see the Ringwraiths for what they are but also that Glorfindel is different from Strider and the other hobbits. Whilst Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen, Peter Jackson did acknowledge that element by showing her as glowing with light as she rides into the glade but returning to what everyone else can see as she dismounts and drops to his side. It is this connection with the spirit world from which the elf lords derive their power, none more so than Galadriel.
Meanwhile, I would also mention that Elrond in the film trilogy almost exactly embodies the description of him in the Fellowship of the Ring: "The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening and in them was a light like the light of stars." The fact that his face was ageless accounted for the fact that they could show him as looking no different during the sequence of the Last Alliance. His hair is also dark "as the shadows of twilight". Why didn't they remains consistent with this in the TV series? Was that so difficult?
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Sept 1, 2022 6:35:04 GMT
I just watched a review of the tv series. When he described Galadriel jumping out of the ship in the middle of the ocean, miles from land and started swimming / back stroke after she had the feels, I 🤣🤣🤣. Everything else he said about the ep sounded awful.
I've no intention of watching the tv series. I'll just watch the YT reviews. I would cancel my sub from Amazon except for the fact that The Expanse series is still available on it. That's the only thing I go back to now and then on Amazon.
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