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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2022 10:46:56 GMT
Beloved fiction is always tricky to adapt, but most of the problems with Rings of Power seem to be purely self-inflicted and avoidable. So far as the awful writing is concerned, I would agree, but even if they got the best writers in the world, it would still only be generic fantasy, not Tolkien. In some ways it is helpful that they did make such a bad job of the writing because most professional critics now have a hard time trying to defend it, even if originally they bought into Amazon's propaganda. It will be interesting to see if they have made any significant changes if season 2 ever sees the light of day but at the moment the studio still seems to be in a state of denial, blaming fans for their own failures. Even looking at it from a generic fantasy point of view, the orc homeland plot doesn't make sense. Whose idea was it in the first place? If Adar only came south with his orcs once he had killed Sauron, that suggests it didn't originate with him since there is that carving and mechanism in the tower from a much earlier era. Who built the dam? If that shady lady can just use a few sparks and set light to those caravans, could not someone more powerful, like Sauron, have kick started the volcano in a similar way, using magic? Why do orcs need somewhere that doesn't have sunlight when they can just come out at night and rest during the day? This is what they do in the books. There are loads of orcs in the Misty Mountains precisely because there are lots of caves they can shelter in and then come out to raid nearby settlements for food or simply hunt at night. That's what nocturnal creatures do. So, if Adar wanted his orcs to be free of Sauron, why not just set up anywhere in the Misty Mountains, that they had to pass to reach the Southlands, rather than choosing a place that Sauron had apparently occupied previously. It can't be for the quality of the farmland since he was intending blocking out the sun. Nor can it be for the quality of the existing workforce. Maybe it had something to do with being as far as possible from the main elven settlements but they could at least have had him say as much. Now Sauron probably wanted it as a base because of the volcano for crafting things. He also likely put plans in place to get it going again, so that was the reason it was going to be his base, not because it was better for the night loving orcs. However, why didn't the elves question the whole set up when they got there? As people have pointed out, if elf eyes are so good, why didn't they spot all that activity out on the plains? Why are the orcs always shown marching around with torches when they don't need them because they can see in the dark? This is just one example of the odd narratives in RoP that if you give them any thought are just illogical. Did they have no peer review process to vet the ideas? Apparently not, or people were too afraid of being given the boot to question the showrunners. It does make for an interesting guessing game trying to fathom where they might take the narrative from where it is at present, since it is hopeless trying to go by what actually happens in the appendices. Did anyone else get Lady Macbeth vibes from Disa last episode?
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 11, 2022 17:00:53 GMT
Hugo Weaving as Elrond was a terrible casting choice (especially since David fucking Bowie- who would have been perfect- was apparently lobbying for the part), I did not know this. I don't feel Hugo Weaving was bad so much as the changes they made to Elrond's character that has him being much more negative about humans. However, I agree that David Bowie would have been awesome. I noticed someone on the net mentioning how the elves in the trilogy did seem rather somber and remote, with none of the joy present in Rivendale that characters in the books feel whilst being there. It is why Bilbo ended up retiring there and it is being immersed in the light and music of the place that helps him forget the ring until Frodo comes there with it. Frodo is also able to forget his troubles whilst listening to music and is transported in visions of beauty by the song. That is clearly part of elven magic and would also seem to be something that is missing from the elven court of Gil-galad in RoP. It is this sense of conjuring beauty and memory in song that is what the world loses when the elves depart and what makes their culture different from the other races. So even though Peter Jackson did a good job with his visual presentation of the elves, I would still love someone in the future to show the full extent of why they are unique and missed by those that appreciate them. Yeah don't get me wrong, I like Hugo Weaving and I felt like he did a perfectly respectable job with the part... but he just wasn't a good casting choice to play Elrond. He certainly captured Elrond's gravity and dignity... but without any of Elrond's, you know, Elfishness. David Bowie, otoh, may actually have literally been an elf out of a fantasy novel. And you're right, this was a problem not only with Elrond, but with elves in general- elves in the LotR films didn't really capture this other side of Tolkien's elves, i.e. not only being aloof and knowledgeable and dignified, but their joyfulness and deep love of music as well.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 11, 2022 17:06:21 GMT
So far as the awful writing is concerned, I would agree, but even if they got the best writers in the world, it would still only be generic fantasy, not Tolkien. In some ways it is helpful that they did make such a bad job of the writing because most professional critics now have a hard time trying to defend it, even if originally they bought into Amazon's propaganda. It will be interesting to see if they have made any significant changes if season 2 ever sees the light of day but at the moment the studio still seems to be in a state of denial, blaming fans for their own failures. I think season 2 is already pretty far in the production process, so I wonder how much they'll be able to change it at this point to adapt to the first seasons shortcomings, as identified by fans and critics. Or if they're even willing to consider changing anything, given their apparent attitude that the show is just fine and the problems are on the fans' end. This whole thing is deeply disappointing... if not especially surprising (i.e. given what they did to the Hobbit)
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 13, 2022 14:28:50 GMT
Late to this thread and I've noticed people throughout saying that the LoTR movies are bad because they don't align with the books in a few key areas. Although I understand this line of reasoning, I'm not sure I agree. I love both the books and the movies, even though I prefer the former and Tolkien was my introduction to Middle-earth, not Jackson. There's a tendency to overstate just how faithful an adaptation the movie trilogy is—they cut large swathes of the plot (though I understand why), changed most of the characters to be more relatable and/or conflicted, altered the pacing to make the story more action-driven and less contemplative (Christopher Tolkien was right about this one), tinkered with the tone, muddled some of the themes and downplayed the implicit religious elements, and visually depicted Middle-earth in ways that contradicted the text. But they are still fine movies that, for all the liberties they take, manage to do great stuff with the material. As for Elrond, Hugo Weaving's scowling countenance captioned with the books' "kind as summer" description of Elrond ought to become a meme on par with "Dumbledore asked calmly."
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2022 14:59:59 GMT
But they are still fine movies that, for all the liberties they take, manage to do great stuff with the material. As you say, whilst they did make changes what with omitting chunks of the story and changing characters, looking at it overall, they did convey the spirit of Middle Earth, which the current series does not. So, it was possible to forgive the lapses and enjoy the film on its merits. I remember when we first saw a trailer at the cinema and were blown away at the thought this was happening. Then it became an annual Christmas treat for our family to go and see it, with us looking forward to the next part in eager anticipation. This was not the case with the Hobbit, where I've previously mentioned that my family gave up on seeing it in the cinema after the second part, having almost done so after the first part. Why on earth did they do that to Radagast, particularly as he isn't even in the book? I do wonder if the writers of the current series thought that the Hobbit trilogy had set a precedent for doing a sub-par adaptation of the original material. As for Elrond, Hugo Weaving's scowling countenance captioned with the books' "kind as summer" description of Elrond ought to become a meme on par with "Dumbledore asked calmly." As I've pointed out above, whilst Peter Jackson did seem to capture the mystery of the elves, they did come across of aloof and severe, which is not the impression you get in either the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings, particularly when it comes to Elrond and the elves of Rivendale. However, there is the fleeting appearance of the softer side at the very end at the Grey Havens, so I suppose that is better than nothing.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 13, 2022 20:11:23 GMT
I’m kind of enjoying these:
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 14, 2022 0:19:32 GMT
I had no idea Elrond was described that way in the books.
I only watched the Hobbit movies once back in high school, when they first came out in theaters. I left the first one pretty disappointed and lowered my expectations after that. My mom thought they were fairly okay, if underwhelming, which is fair enough. I personally found them to be leaning more toward the lower end of mediocrity.
Don't get me wrong; I have no issue with Elrond's character in the movies. It works there. The changes I like the least are the ones that, in my opinion, don't—elves in Helms' Deep, the Frodo-Sam-Gollum drama ahead of entering Shelob's lair, Arwen convalescing (the heck was that about?), Denethor being an idiot, Gimli being a comic relief D&D dwarf, and Legolas being cool sexy teen bait. I am shocked, shocked that with all the pitches for Tolkien adaptations, no one's gone for the obvious: another go at The Hobbit. You have enough material there that you don't have to make most of it up, as with The Rings of Power. The only other Middle-earth works of which you can say that are TLotR, which means direct competition with the Jackson trilogy, and maybe the Great Tales of the First Age, which the Tolkien Estate isn't so keen on giving out. But The Hobbit? No one remembers the 1977 animated movie, and Jackson's take has been so poorly received you'd be pressed to do worse. As long as it's above average, fans will heap praises on whoever tackles it. But then, if there was a moral from the Jackson debacle, it's that The Hobbit should be a single movie, or perhaps like one of those kids' miniseries with 20 minute episodes. Not as enticing as a prestige drama, I guess.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 14, 2022 13:41:41 GMT
The changes I like the least are the ones that, in my opinion, don't—elves in Helms' Deep, the Frodo-Sam-Gollum drama ahead of entering Shelob's lair, Arwen convalescing (the heck was that about?), Denethor being an idiot, Gimli being a comic relief D&D dwarf, and Legolas being cool sexy teen bait. Yes, those are the standout ones for me too. Plus, them having Faramir try and take Frodo back to Minas Tirith initially, which is totally the opposite of his character in the books. Faramir was one of my favourites in the novels and I was genuinely afraid that he was going to die at Denethor's hands and was with Pippin all the way as he frantically looked for Gandalf. I liked the fact that he ended up with Eowyn because I saw myself in her. I could never be Galadriel as I'm just not graceful or serene enough to pull it off, although I still admire her and think she is amazing. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, I do understand why they possibly had the elves at Helm's Deep. Without knowing what was going on in the rest of the south, it would seem odd that Rohan and Gondor appeared to be getting no aid from either the elves or the dwarves. As the appendices explain, this was because they had their own problem armies to deal with, which was part of Sauron's strategy for conquest in preventing everyone from forming another alliance. Even Rohan would not have reached Gondor in time in the book if they hadn't found a way to avoid a large army that was guarding the road south. However, there wasn't enough time in the film to show all this, so I assume that is why they went with Galadriel sending the elves to aid at Helm's Deep. The only other Middle-earth works of which you can say that are TLotR, which means direct competition with the Jackson trilogy, and maybe the Great Tales of the First Age, which the Tolkien Estate isn't so keen on giving out. I find the whole story about the Tolkien Estate blocking access to the actual source material for the 2nd Age a bit peculiar, particularly as the show runners are using quotes from Tolkien's writing that they allegedly don't have access to, in order to justify some of the choices they have made. Why would the Tolkien Estate be so keen to green light the pitch that was based on the 2nd Age and then refuse access to the material that was available for that period? Now I maintain that even with the brief outline in the appendices, the writers could have come up with something better than RoP and kept more faithful to the lore. However, the showrunners maintained that they were given free rein to make stuff up so long as they didn't contradict established lore, which they quite plainly have done. So, something doesn't add up. I assume that so long as Amazon have got their grubby paws on the rights to screen adaptations from the same source material, no one else will be able to set the record straight. As you say, though, both the Hobbit and LotR had animated versions back in the 70/80's, which no one really mentions now, except perhaps to say that even they were better than RoP. I still think the BBC radio series from the same period has been the most faithful to Tolkien. That was 26 episodes, so it is clear to see that a TV series would be the ideal way to do a faithful visual adaptation if the will to do it is there. I wonder how many more years need to pass before the copyright expires and someone does?
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 14, 2022 17:35:24 GMT
Late to the party here, I finally have watched the first 4 episodes of the rings of power as I do not have Amazon plus at home but my relatives have it out here at the acreage I am looking after. I am usually easy to please on things whether they are movies or tv and such for lore i like, like the lord of the rings.
I've enjoyed some of the stuff from the first 4 episodes, a few cases of some nice set ups for things you know are coming later on. So overall I have enjoyed them so far, but as I said I am usually easy to please.
Little spoiler below.....
One aspect that is a tad jolting to me though is Galadriel. After 4 episodes I view her as a highly unlikeable spoiled stupid beotch. I hope as the series progresses she matures.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 14, 2022 18:35:04 GMT
Little spoiler below.....One aspect that is a tad jolting to me though is Galadriel. After 4 episodes I view her as a highly unlikealbe spoiled stupid beotch. I hope as the series progresses she matures. Whenever she's about to speak i keep thinking she's going to demand to speak to someone's manager.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 14, 2022 18:51:33 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Oct 14, 2022 18:56:19 GMT
I love both the books and the movies, even though I prefer the former and Tolkien was my introduction to Middle-earth, not Jackson. There's a tendency to overstate just how faithful an adaptation the movie trilogy is—they cut large swathes of the plot (though I understand why), changed most of the characters to be more relatable and/or conflicted, altered the pacing to make the story more action-driven and less contemplative (Christopher Tolkien was right about this one), tinkered with the tone, muddled some of the themes and downplayed the implicit religious elements, and visually depicted Middle-earth in ways that contradicted the text. But they are still fine movies that, for all the liberties they take, manage to do great stuff with the material. As for Elrond, Hugo Weaving's scowling countenance captioned with the books' "kind as summer" description of Elrond ought to become a meme on par with "Dumbledore asked calmly." I had no idea Elrond was described that way in the books.
I only watched the Hobbit movies once back in high school, when they first came out in theaters. I left the first one pretty disappointed and lowered my expectations after that. My mom thought they were fairly okay, if underwhelming, which is fair enough. I personally found them to be leaning more toward the lower end of mediocrity.
From The Hobbit: He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.
From The Fellowship of the Ring: The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 14, 2022 19:58:58 GMT
gervaise21 - Oh gee golly who would have thunk good ole... Halbrand was Sauron in disguise all along, Uh Oh everybody better watch out Numenor has a dozen ships now, and oh noes it's so heartbreaking poor Isildur's dead?!
Jokes aside the lore was butchered beyond recognition, and the writing leaves a lot to be desired due to the showrunners abusing contrivances in order to move the plot forward. Once again the fx, light and sound crews are carrying this series and it's like watching an army of ants struggle valiantly to carry a whale's bloated carcass away. The smoldering embers and landscape visuals during Saruman/Gandalf's battle was aesthetically pleasing and kino.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2022 11:36:37 GMT
Halbrand was Sauron in disguise all along, Uh Oh everybody better watch out Numenor has a dozen ships now, and oh noes it's so heartbreaking poor Isildur's dead?! Don't worry, Berek to the rescue! I found it strange that Elendil was the one who told Isildur about the bond between horse and rider and then doesn't draw the obvious conclusion why Berek is so determined not to leave. I do wonder if they will go as far as they did in LotR and actually have Berek lie down beside Isildur, because the Behind the Scenes on the movie explained how difficult that was to achieve. They'll probably just have him smash through the rubble with his hooves. It was odd they didn't show that in the final episode though, as it wouldn't have taken Berek 6 days to find him. From the latest Hollywood Reporter article that was released almost immediately after the final episode aired, it doesn't look as though things are going to improve much in season 2. It would seem they employed a writer previously part of Breaking Bad because they want their villain to be like a character from Breaking Bad. How about him being like the villain in Tolkien?
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 15, 2022 15:40:45 GMT
Halbrand was Sauron in disguise all along, Uh Oh everybody better watch out Numenor has a dozen ships now, and oh noes it's so heartbreaking poor Isildur's dead?! Don't worry, Berek to the rescue! I found it strange that Elendil was the one who told Isildur about the bond between horse and rider and then doesn't draw the obvious conclusion why Berek is so determined not to leave. I do wonder if they will go as far as they did in LotR and actually have Berek lie down beside Isildur, because the Behind the Scenes on the movie explained how difficult that was to achieve. They'll probably just have him smash through the rubble with his hooves. It was odd they didn't show that in the final episode though, as it wouldn't have taken Berek 6 days to find him. From the latest Hollywood Reporter article that was released almost immediately after the final episode aired, it doesn't look as though things are going to improve much in season 2. It would seem they employed a writer previously part of Breaking Bad because they want their villain to be like a character from Breaking Bad. How about him being like the villain in Tolkien? Ugh that sounds awful. Unless Sauron is given primary focus amongst RoP's large cast he'll end up coming across as a two dimensional bargain bin Walter White knock off who makes the audience wish Bryan Cranston was casted in the role instead. It seems like they're also planning on taking inspiration from Paradise Lost's Satan, and if the showrunners were competent like HoTD's i would welcome the portrayal but i doubt them hiring a BB writer will be the answer for this show's deficiencies. The BB writer's script will have to be screened by the show's writing committee to make sure it's in line with the showrunner's vision. I might be wrong but you never know with these people. interesting assessment from article's writer - IIRC The showrunner's are proteges of JJ Abrams who is famous for his mystery box style of writing. www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2022/10/14/the-rings-of-power-season-2-sauron-will-be-like-walter-white-tony-soprano-and-the-joker/?sh=1e8e89324ca2
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Post by Iakus on Oct 15, 2022 16:21:43 GMT
gervaise21 - Oh gee golly who would have thunk good ole... Halbrand was Sauron in disguise all along, Uh Oh everybody better watch out Numenor has a dozen ships now, and oh noes it's so heartbreaking poor Isildur's dead?!
Jokes aside the lore was butchered beyond recognition, and the writing leaves a lot to be desired due to the showrunners abusing contrivances in order to move the plot forward. Once again the fx, light and sound crews are carrying this series and it's like watching an army of ants struggle valiantly to carry a whale's bloated carcass away. The smoldering embers and landscape visuals during Saruman/Gandalf's battle was aesthetically pleasing and kino. So Sauron: Went evil because he was Friendzoned by Galadriel, and is really just an incel.
Makes sense in Current Year Hollywood.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 15, 2022 18:39:38 GMT
gervaise21 - Oh gee golly who would have thunk good ole... Halbrand was Sauron in disguise all along, Uh Oh everybody better watch out Numenor has a dozen ships now, and oh noes it's so heartbreaking poor Isildur's dead?!
Jokes aside the lore was butchered beyond recognition, and the writing leaves a lot to be desired due to the showrunners abusing contrivances in order to move the plot forward. Once again the fx, light and sound crews are carrying this series and it's like watching an army of ants struggle valiantly to carry a whale's bloated carcass away. The smoldering embers and landscape visuals during Saruman/Gandalf's battle was aesthetically pleasing and kino. So Sauron: Went evil because he was Friendzoned by Galadriel, and is really just an incel.
Makes sense in Current Year Hollywood. Next season we might see him and Pharazon at the Make Numenor Great Again rally and they'll talk about how the elves are taking everybody's jobs.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2022 19:12:07 GMT
IIRC The showrunner's are proteges of JJ Abrams who is famous for his mystery box style of writing. They really ought to drop this style of writing if they want season two to be a success. Now they claim that next season is going to be more based on canon, which is as good as admitting that thus far it hasn't been, and more in keeping with what people were expecting first season. I'm not holding my breath on that one. I think it is more a case that they have broken so much of the lore in the first season, there isn't much left they can change. People have been pointing out that for a series called the "Rings of Power", they haven't really had much screen time up to now. They have also only made the elven rings, which were made last in the books, although they do feature first in the spell by Sauron, which I wouldn't be surprised will be their justification for changing it. Plus, they didn't make 3 elven rings for "balance"; the poem quiet clearly states Three rings for the elven-kings. The rings were said to represent the elements of Fire, Air and Water, with an appropriate gemstone for each. The most powerful was said to be Vilya, the ring of Air, which was the one originally given to Gil-galad, which makes sense seeing as he was the High King. Only one ring was made from mithril, that of Galadriel. All this can be found in the LotR to which they have access. Now making three rings could be viewed as them being intended originally for either the rulers of the three houses of the Noldor: Celebrimbor/Feanor; Gil-galad/Fingolfin; Galadriel/Finafin, or for the rulers of the three main types of elf in Middle Earth: Noldor (High); Sindar (Grey) and Silvan (Wood). I discount the latter because the Silvan elves didn't really have rulers of their own as such, with Thranduil and Celeborn both being Sindar who had realms where a large number of their subjects were Silvan elves and, besides, neither of them were offered the rings, so I'm going with the three houses of the Noldor. When Celebrimbor realised how he had been played by Anatar, he gave his ring into the care of Gil-galad, who then passed it on to Cirdan for safe keeping. This would explain why Gil-galad passed his ring to Elrond because technically he was also of the house of Fingolfin through his grand-mother. Instead, Amazon have them originally opting for just one ring, then Sauron/Halbrand suggesting making two and then finally Galadriel insisting on the three "for balance", with equally fatuous explanations for the other two. There is no explanation why the rings look to be from different metals or what the different gemstones represent. It is almost as though they got to the last episode and realised they still hadn't made the rings of the title, although I always thought that is where the mithril plot was headed. They do seem to have been more invested in the Sauron/Galadriel relationship than the actual story of the rings and that is why the whole season meandered around with those two, instead of keeping to the canon version of the story. Also, their rings look like cheap, gaudy, costume jewelry.
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 15, 2022 22:27:25 GMT
Ha. By sheer coincidence, I was reading this bit from Paradise Lost earlier today:
This speech by Satan did make me think of Sauron, specifically this scene from The Silmarillion:
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 16, 2022 2:05:11 GMT
IIRC The showrunner's are proteges of JJ Abrams who is famous for his mystery box style of writing. They really ought to drop this style of writing if they want season two to be a success. Now they claim that next season is going to be more based on canon, which is as good as admitting that thus far it hasn't been, and more in keeping with what people were expecting first season. I'm not holding my breath on that one. I think it is more a case that they have broken so much of the lore in the first season, there isn't much left they can change. People have been pointing out that for a series called the "Rings of Power", they haven't really had much screen time up to now. They have also only made the elven rings, which were made last in the books, although they do feature first in the spell by Sauron, which I wouldn't be surprised will be their justification for changing it. Plus, they didn't make 3 elven rings for "balance"; the poem quiet clearly states Three rings for the elven-kings. The rings were said to represent the elements of Fire, Air and Water, with an appropriate gemstone for each. The most powerful was said to be Vilya, the ring of Air, which was the one originally given to Gil-galad, which makes sense seeing as he was the High King. Only one ring was made from mithril, that of Galadriel. All this can be found in the LotR to which they have access. Now making three rings could be viewed as them being intended originally for either the rulers of the three houses of the Noldor: Celebrimbor/Feanor; Gil-galad/Fingolfin; Galadriel/Finafin, or for the rulers of the three main types of elf in Middle Earth: Noldor (High); Sindar (Grey) and Silvan (Wood). I discount the latter because the Silvan elves didn't really have rulers of their own as such, with Thranduil and Celeborn both being Sindar who had realms where a large number of their subjects were Silvan elves and, besides, neither of them were offered the rings, so I'm going with the three houses of the Noldor. When Celebrimbor realised how he had been played by Anatar, he gave his ring into the care of Gil-galad, who then passed it on to Cirdan for safe keeping. This would explain why Gil-galad passed his ring to Elrond because technically he was also of the house of Fingolfin through his grand-mother. Instead, Amazon have them originally opting for just one ring, then Sauron/Halbrand suggesting making two and then finally Galadriel insisting on the three "for balance", with equally fatuous explanations for the other two. There is no explanation why the rings look to be from different metals or what the different gemstones represent. It is almost as though they got to the last episode and realised they still hadn't made the rings of the title, although I always thought that is where the mithril plot was headed. They do seem to have been more invested in the Sauron/Galadriel relationship than the actual story of the rings and that is why the whole season meandered around with those two, instead of keeping to the canon version of the story. Also, their rings look like cheap, gaudy, costume jewelry. Their claim about the next season being closer to the canon is a meaningless statement after their story's foundation, season 1, had left behind plot points for season 2 to address that didn't exist in the source material. Plot points like the balrog Durin's Bane being woken in the second age, Isildur visiting and being left for dead in Middle Earth before Numenor's fall, Celeborn's M.I.A., elves dying because of lost light, Lyrium - i meant super mithril, Sauron being on Numenor before he went to war with them, Numenoreans in general lol, Adar's existence in relation to Sauron's etc. I agree about how they handled the creation of the rings. Like Angry Joe jokingly said (amusing RoP reviews) it seems like they spent more time on the Harfoots than the creation of the titular rings of power. In order to end the season with the creation of the titular rings it's like they crammed in a few episodes worth of questionable story telling into one episode. You have Halbrand a stranger building up good rapport with Celebrimbor in two minutes, his identity being revealed soon after by Galadriel, and the rings seeming like they were created a few hours after that. Time compressions a helluva drug. Joe's not for everyone but him and especially Alex are knowledgeable about the lore...
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 8:48:07 GMT
I've been considering more ways in which Rings of Power is really a tribute to Dragon Age and more in keeping with Thedas than Middle Earth.
The veins in the Mithril mine looks suspiciously similar to the lyrium veins in the Descent
The tree being symbolic of the health of the elves is very similar to the "Ruined Tree of the People" as a symbol of their lost immortality in the text found in the Temple of Mythal that is given in WoT2 in the poem Where the Willows Wail. I've already mentioned the similarity of the RoP tree to that in the concept art for DA:D.
The blight affecting the elves will eventually encompass the whole of Middle Earth because the evil spreads in tangible ways.
The antagonist can get inside the head of the main protagonist, like the envy demon, but as with Solas is able to reproduce accurately scenes from their past.
The main antagonist claims he is trying to heal the world and undo the evil effects of the previous big bad(s), including his own actions. Not only that but in order to achieve this he is quite willing to experiment on/sacrifice those he considers the result of those actions and not real people. I can hardly blame Sauron for thinking that Galadriel was of a similar mind to him bearing in mind her words to Adar in episode 6 about his "children". He also regards it essential for him to rule/follow his plan in order to achieve the desired outcome. The only real difference between Sauron and Solas is that the latter didn't want to involve his lady love in this.
Further thought, the show runners claim that the theme of Tolkien, which is actually their own theme, is that of individuals from a variety of backgrounds working together and overcoming their differences to achieve a common goal. I seem to recall that it was John Epler (correct me if I'm wrong) who said a similar thing about the theme of Dragon Age.
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 16, 2022 13:12:11 GMT
I've been considering more ways in which Rings of Power is really a tribute to Dragon Age and more in keeping with Thedas than Middle Earth. Hey, the Guardians of the Galaxy movies draw from Mass Effect, so it's only fair Dragon Age also gets to warp an established franchise
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 16, 2022 17:38:37 GMT
The main antagonist claims he is trying to heal the world and undo the evil effects of the previous big bad(s), including his own actions. Not only that but in order to achieve this he is quite willing to experiment on/sacrifice those he considers the result of those actions and not real people. I can hardly blame Sauron for thinking that Galadriel was of a similar mind to him bearing in mind her words to Adar in episode 6 about his "children". He also regards it essential for him to rule/follow his plan in order to achieve the desired outcome. The only real difference between Sauron and Solas is that the latter didn't want to involve his lady love in this. Further thought, the show runners claim that the theme of Tolkien, which is actually their own theme, is that of individuals from a variety of backgrounds working together and overcoming their differences to achieve a common goal. I seem to recall that it was John Epler (correct me if I'm wrong) who said a similar thing about the theme of Dragon Age. I have a hard time picturing Sauron admitting any kind of real reluctance, doubt or regret knowing that others will suffer to reverse the mistakes he thinks he needs to correct. Pretty significant difference in character motivation right there to my mind, but maybe that's just me. And you forgot both franchises having been flattened, watered down and distorted beyond recognition with each new rushed, gaudy and unnecessary entry.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 19:38:12 GMT
I have a hard time picturing Sauron admitting any kind of real reluctance, doubt or regret knowing that others will suffer to reverse the mistakes he thinks he needs to correct. I suppose that depends on whether you think his professed regret for past actions is genuine or not. After all, he was going to kill Adar as revenge for his betrayal, until Galadriel stopped him. Then he was present to hear exactly why Adar did what he did, after which he stopped Galadriel from killing him, which could hint at remorse. Mind you, he must have been able to sense that the bundle didn't contain the sword/key and would have known about what it was meant to do, yet didn't think to warn anyone, suggesting he was at the very least happy to put the contingency plan into place. However, I would also point out that whilst Solas keeps apologising to the Inquisitor for what he intends to do, despite the fact that he now acknowledges the modern races have worth, he still intends going ahead with it. So, to my mind these have always been crocodile tears. Expressing regret be damned, if you know it's wrong don't do it. It is clearly just him trying to make himself feel better rather than genuine remorse, bearing in mind that if the Inquisitor is not his friend, he shows no reluctance or regret for what he is going to do. His attitude then is very similar to that of Sauron when his proposal is rejected.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 19:41:58 GMT
Hey, the Guardians of the Galaxy movies draw from Mass Effect, so it's only fair Dragon Age also gets to warp an established franchise I have to admit that the scene with Sadoc Burrows sitting there with his fellow Harfoots watching the sunrise as he dies did make me think of the scene with Shepard and Anderson at the end of Mass Effect 3, although the latter was done better.
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