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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 19:50:38 GMT
And you forgot both franchises having been flattened, watered down and distorted beyond recognition with each new rushed, gaudy and unnecessary entry. It doesn't annoy me so much with Dragon Age because at least the people doing the damage were the ones who originally came up with the concept, so it is their story and setting to mess with (even if I do moan like crazy when they change stuff in the lore) and let's be fair to them, nothing has been such a travesty as RoP. Anyway, with RoP it has been more of a case of having one's predictions confirmed rather than hopes crushed. I am still holding out hope for Dreadwolf and trusting that this time round, Bioware have learnt from their previous mistakes.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 20:03:51 GMT
Apparently, Charlie Vickers who plays Sauron seems to think that Season 1 was his repentance phase. He has the following to say about Season 2: We know Sauron takes on different shapes in this era. All I can say is maybe to that. Maybe we're going to do those things. I'm incredibly excited to explore him doing these things that we know he does. He has a sh-tload of rings to make, and he gets to go to Númenor, and he orchestrates the downfall of Númenor. Then he has to take another form and go and fight in the Battle of the Last Alliance. The battle at the end of the Second Age. [But] the showrunners have a really specific plan, and I don't know their plans as to how it'll unfold, but I loved playing him in this repentance stage. Whether the repentance is genuine or not is open to interpretation. But I think it's going to be really cool now that he's kind of out there. And it's like, I'm back. I've been lingering. I've been coming back very slowly. And now, thanks to Galadriel, I'm back. And I'm excited to play that."
Notice he mentions how Sauron needs to make the rings for the other races, except that according to the lore he should have done this before departing for Mordor and no one was meant to know his true identity until he donned the One Ring, so already they have messed up on that one, although I suppose there is a long shot that he could return under a different guise to complete the other rings with Celebrimbor.
Also, I hate to break it to Charlie but by the Last Alliance Sauron has lost his "fair form", so either he'll be covered up the entire time or, more likely, they will dispense with his services and use a CGI Sauron. I doubt that will be in Season 2 though.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 16, 2022 20:55:44 GMT
I wonder how the writers will explain Nenya, Narya, and Vilya being connected to the one ring since Sauron had yet to create any successful ring with Celebrimbor whose crafting method should have served as the basis for the three rings' construction which establishes a link, while the three's creation relied on an extra step he wasn't present to witness.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2022 8:21:52 GMT
I wonder how the writers will explain Nenya, Narya, and Vilya being connected to the one ring Actually, that is one area where I feel that Tolkien did leave a plot hole that the show runners felt justified to fill. You see, it is clear that Sauron knew about the three rings because he included them in his spell, so whilst he had no part in their actual making (which they have kept to), he had to have known that they were going to be made (which is also true in the show, except so far as Halbrand is aware they are only going to make two rings). With the book, for me, that has always begged the question, why did Sauron leave when he did and not wait until the elven rings were completed? With the show, they have to answer why did they have Sauron leave before any of the other rings were made? There is also the problem for the motivation for why the rings were made. In the show it seems entirely connected with ensuring the elves' immortality and ability to remain in Middle Earth, although it is strange how they have jumped from "we need shed loads of mithril" to just "three rings". (I do hope Elrond remembers to tell the dwarves that the mithril deal is off). Of course, they were vague enough in the mechanics of how it was going to work originally, they probably feel they have no need to explain themselves now. Still, leaving that aside (which no doubt they will), what is going to be the reason for creating the rings for the other races? As long as they stick to some sort of plan for resisting the evil (blight) spreading across the world through gifting them to the other races, then even if they have got the creation out of order, Celebrimbor could still make them. However, that leads to a separate problem of how does Sauron know they exist and the numbers involved? That can only be the case if he is involved with their making. So, will them have him return under a different guise and ingratiate himself with Celebrimbor a second time? I can't see any other solution to the problem unless they have Sauron making the other 16 himself without Celebrimbor, which would once again break the lore but clearly they don't care. Really it all comes down to the rushed resolution to season one. They spent ages on other non-important plots and ignored the one central to the show's title. Halbrand gaining the trust of Celebrimbor because Galadriel introduced them, made sense but they rushed the part where Galadriel has second thoughts about him. It should have been something that became apparent over time, particularly if he didn't seem in a hurry to return to the south, so by the time she thought to look into it, the 7 and the 9 had already been made, as a result of experimenting with levels of power within the rings themselves before Celebrimbor embarked on the most important 3. Whilst the elf cancer leant a certain urgency to their task, again this seemed to have been rushed to the forefront in the final episode. Why did a volcano erupting in the south, affect the tree in the north? Why is the health of the tree the main indicator of the health of the elves? Shouldn't they be feeling it themselves if they are that close to the end? This is where their narrative falls apart and creates problems that wouldn't have existed if they stuck to the lore.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2022 8:55:58 GMT
Another funny thing that the show runners clearly haven't appreciated, because in their narrative Galadriel has been proven right all along, is that in fact Gil'galad was right to send her away. He clearly stated at the beginning that he feared she was only making things worse, or as Galadriel surmised in episode 5, he actually saw her as the source of the evil because the rot only started when she returned to Lindon.
Unless we are expected to believe that Sauron only ended up on the ocean because he knew he was going to meet Galadriel there, if she had kept on to Valinor, then he would still be floating on the raft, inside a sea monster, or possibly happily making things in Numenor. Any of these outcomes would have meant he was no longer in Middle Earth.
In fact, the spreading rot occurred before either Galadriel or Sauron set foot back on Middle Earth, so presumably the problem was associated with the actions of Adar and his orcs. They still haven't explained why no message was ever sent to Gil'galad, or whichever elven settlement Arondir and his pals were attached to, warning of the danger. Yet apparently Gil'galad had got word of the eruption in the 6 days since it took place, before Galadriel returned, so who told him? Sauron failing to warn Galadriel about this plot to set off Mount Doom is one thing that seems to fly in the face of his claim to want to heal the world, if that one volcano can have such far reaching effects. That whole set up had to have been his plan originally because Adar only went south with the orcs after rebelling against him and it had clearly been in place for hundreds of years before that. If Mount Doom is part of the "healing" plan, why does it have the opposite effect on the elf tree?
Meanwhile, Galadriel is continuing to keep secrets for fear of her own reputation and unwillingness to admit that she was ever in the wrong. Instead of changing the number of rings, if you know Sauron has been involved with the project, then might it not be a good idea to abandon it altogether because there is every chance that this is what he wants? I still wish that the mithril idea had been a red herring that had somehow been placed in Celebrimbor's mind by Sauron (since he is clearly able to enter minds) and then forgot where the idea came from (which also seems apparent in the show) but unfortunately, the mithril healing that leaf last episode really seemed to put paid to that.
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 17, 2022 11:55:51 GMT
I suppose that depends on whether you think his professed regret for past actions is genuine or not. After all, he was going to kill Adar as revenge for his betrayal, until Galadriel stopped him. Then he was present to hear exactly why Adar did what he did, after which he stopped Galadriel from killing him, which could hint at remorse. Mind you, he must have been able to sense that the bundle didn't contain the sword/key and would have known about what it was meant to do, yet didn't think to warn anyone, suggesting he was at the very least happy to put the contingency plan into place. However, I would also point out that whilst Solas keeps apologising to the Inquisitor for what he intends to do, despite the fact that he now acknowledges the modern races have worth, he still intends going ahead with it. So, to my mind these have always been crocodile tears. Expressing regret be damned, if you know it's wrong don't do it. It is clearly just him trying to make himself feel better rather than genuine remorse, bearing in mind that if the Inquisitor is not his friend, he shows no reluctance or regret for what he is going to do. His attitude then is very similar to that of Sauron when his proposal is rejected. I don't know. In real life, I personally think it's quite dehumanizing to blanketly denounce someone's apparent human compassion and guilt just because those aren't ultimately the things that move them to action in one particular instance. Deciding that they need to be stopped or punished regardless of their remorse is natural, especially if the actions they take are at your expense or that of people you care about. Justice and self-defense matter whether you feel terrible about what you're doing or not. But pretending that the remorse and humanity aren't there or valid just to make it easier to hate and hurt and feel superior to someone? Seems like fucked-up binary self-righteous 'us vs them' caveman shit to me. And since Solas seems to be acting out of compassion for and obligation to his people rather than, say, hatred or megalomania, that just so happen to outweigh his compassion for and obligation to ours with our interests appearing to be mutually exclusive, I find him a really interesting example of an antagonist having to choose between two obviously wrong things with us getting the short end of the stick. And find it a bit sad for people to keep reducing that to 'wants to kill people villain lol'. Meanwhile Sauron is explicitly a superpowered alien with OCD hell-bent on corrupting and dominating the entire world entirely in order to force it to be symmetrical with no capacity for regard for life anywhere. Sometimes I feel really sorry for writers.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 17, 2022 21:27:21 GMT
Really it all comes down to the rushed resolution to season one. They spent ages on other non-important plots and ignored the one central to the show's title. Halbrand gaining the trust of Celebrimbor because Galadriel introduced them, made sense but they rushed the part where Galadriel has second thoughts about him. It should have been something that became apparent over time, particularly if he didn't seem in a hurry to return to the south, so by the time she thought to look into it, the 7 and the 9 had already been made, as a result of experimenting with levels of power within the rings themselves before Celebrimbor embarked on the most important 3. Whilst the elf cancer leant a certain urgency to their task, again this seemed to have been rushed to the forefront in the final episode. Why did a volcano erupting in the south, affect the tree in the north? Why is the health of the tree the main indicator of the health of the elves? Shouldn't they be feeling it themselves if they are that close to the end? This is where their narrative falls apart and creates problems that wouldn't have existed if they stuck to the lore. The showrunners wasted too much screen time on the Hartfoot's plotline that could have been used to flesh out other plots. The weirdest thing with Mt. Doom's activation effecting the tree is that no dark magic from Sauron was used just a dam full of water. The tree being an indicator of the elves' health could make sense if it was brought from Valinor as a seedling of Galathilion, but the whole elves losing their light plot is non sensical especially when you remember the sun and moon were created from remnants of the two trees.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 18, 2022 9:51:39 GMT
The tree being an indicator of the elves' health could make sense if it was brought from Valinor as a seedling of Galathilion, but the whole elves losing their light plot is non sensical especially when you remember the sun and moon were created from remnants of the two trees. I was watching a You Tube review where they drew attention to a letter of Tolkien about this subject. So, I searched it out on the internet. It would seem it was part of a long summary of the plots of the 1st-3rd Ages sent to his publishers. Now I seem to recall that the show runners keep referring back the words of Tolkien found in his letters in order to justify their choices as being faithful to the lore. I wasn't aware of the contents of these letters because I have concentrated on reading the books and so base my assertions on information found there, rather than supporting material where he is explaining his thinking process. With regard to this particular letter, it is undated but conjectured to have been written around 1951, so prior to the first publication of the Lord of the Rings in 1954. He also kept on working on the Silmarillion and associated material relating to the 2nd Age right up until his death, the most recent version of which Christopher Tolkien published under the book of that name in 1977. It is quite possible that between 1951 and 1977, Tolkien revised his ideas about the motivations for the creation of the rings of power, which is why I always feel that whilst the additional writings are of interest to see how his mind worked, when it comes to the canon for the 1st-3rd Ages, the LotR and the Silmarillion should always be seen as the definitive version. However, the show runners were not allowed the rights to the latter and instead decided to use ideas in the letters (which I assume are not considered copyright) as the basis for what they have done. Looking at the relevant passages concerning the motivations of the elves, it is possible to see where they get their ideas for the show. The Rings of Power told of a second Elvish fall, or at least error. The lingering Elves wanted the peace, bliss, and perfect memory of the West while remaining on the ordinary earth. They wanted to have the prestige of being the highest people, above lesser Elves, Men, and Dwarves, rather than the bottommost position of the hierarchy of Valinor. They became obsessed with "fading", sad, and their arts turned to a kind of embalming, although they retained the old motive of adorning the earth and healing its hurts. Lingering kingdoms remain: The remnant of the old lands of The Silmarillion under Gilgalad, Imladris under Elrond, and Eregion adjacent to Moria. In this third kingdom arose a friendship between the Elves and Dwarves, and smithcraft reached its highest development. But many Elves listened to Sauron, still fair, and still partly in alignment with the Elves, seeking the healing of desolate lands. Actually Sauron exploited the Elves' weak spot. Helping one another they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor, he claimed, but really it was a veiled attack on the gods. Gilgalad and Elrond repulsed his overtures, but in Eregion the Elves came nearest to succumbing to "magic" and machinery. Together with Sauron they made the Rings of Power. Now, of course, there is no mention here of mithril being part of the "healing plan" because it was never intended that way. However, I think Celebrimbor originally moved eastwards nearer to Moria because he knew about the discovery of mithril and clearly saw its potential for crafting generally. What the show has contradicted is the friendship that existed between elves of Eregion and the dwarves of Khazad-Dum at this time. It wasn't just a solitary friendship between one dwarf and one elf but between communities. It is also easy to see how Annatar could have manipulated Celebrimbor if Celeborn was generally antagonistic towards the dwarves and Galadriel was antagonistic towards him: why would they want to prevent such a beneficial assistance to the alliance that he was willing to give? Anyway, I can see how the show runners have used this letter as the basis for their alleged motivation for the elves to create the rings, although I think Tolkien meant something different regarding "fading", which seems more about the retention of the memory of Valinor that sustains them. As you say, since the sun and moon were created from the last vestiges of the two trees, the elves are never without their light. It only applies to the Noldor elves, though, as the Sindar and Silvan elves never went to Valinor, so never knew the light of the two trees. I wish they had brought out better the distinction between the different types of elves. As Tolkien's letter says, the Noldor did consider themselves the "High Elves" and superior to the other inhabitants of Middle Earth, even if it was more as benign overlords than tyrants. The Silvan elves in particular never saw the need to have kings of their own and it was the other two groups who introduced this concept to them and then took it upon themselves to show them how it should be done. I do wonder what the showrunners are going to do with the fact that the moment Sauron put on the One Ring, the bearers of the Three realised how they had been betrayed and that so long as he wore the One, they could not use them. So, if wearing the rings is what fends off the elven "sickness", presumably this would stop working. Perhaps they only need have them in their possession for it to work. After all, all it took was the lump of mithril adjacent to the leaf to heal it. Leaving aside the lore issue, I still think that if Galadriel knows that the rings are part of Sauron's plan, she would want to stop them being made. Gil-galad rasied the objection that one ring was too much power for any individual and I'm pretty sure it was Halbrand who suggested they make two, because clearly at that time he was intending to share his power with Galadriel. So, why on earth does she think that three rings are an improvement? It was still Sauron's idea to make them. At the very least she should inform the others of this and then let them make a decision based off all available information. When Annatar persuaded him to make the rings, Celebrimbor genuinely believed he was an emissary of the Valar sent to help them and it was only on the creation of the One Ring that he realised his mistake. In this version of the story, Galadriel knows that all along Sauron was trying to master this power because Adar told her so and that up to now he had been unsuccessful. She also said herself that whatever had been done up in that northern fortress was pure evil, which suggests that whatever power Sauron was trying to harness was not something they should be messing with. She also rejected Sauron's offer, which suggests that she doesn't think his desire to save the world is genuine or, at the very least, power over the world is his main motivation. Everything is pointing to creating the rings being a really bad idea because they are doing want Sauron wants them to do. I only hope that at some stage they will emphasise that the elven rings are different because they are created with the primary function of healing and preservation rather than control.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 18, 2022 15:35:15 GMT
The tree being an indicator of the elves' health could make sense if it was brought from Valinor as a seedling of Galathilion, but the whole elves losing their light plot is non sensical especially when you remember the sun and moon were created from remnants of the two trees. I was watching a You Tube review where they drew attention to a letter of Tolkien about this subject. So, I searched it out on the internet. It would seem it was part of a long summary of the plots of the 1st-3rd Ages sent to his publishers. Now I seem to recall that the show runners keep referring back the words of Tolkien found in his letters in order to justify their choices as being faithful to the lore. I wasn't aware of the contents of these letters because I have concentrated on reading the books and so base my assertions on information found there, rather than supporting material where he is explaining his thinking process. With regard to this particular letter, it is undated but conjectured to have been written around 1951, so prior to the first publication of the Lord of the Rings in 1954. He also kept on working on the Silmarillion and associated material relating to the 2nd Age right up until his death, the most recent version of which Christopher Tolkien published under the book of that name in 1977. It is quite possible that between 1951 and 1977, Tolkien revised his ideas about the motivations for the creation of the rings of power, which is why I always feel that whilst the additional writings are of interest to see how his mind worked, when it comes to the canon for the 1st-3rd Ages, the LotR and the Silmarillion should always be seen as the definitive version. However, the show runners were not allowed the rights to the latter and instead decided to use ideas in the letters (which I assume are not considered copyright) as the basis for what they have done. Looking at the relevant passages concerning the motivations of the elves, it is possible to see where they get their ideas for the show. The Rings of Power told of a second Elvish fall, or at least error. The lingering Elves wanted the peace, bliss, and perfect memory of the West while remaining on the ordinary earth. They wanted to have the prestige of being the highest people, above lesser Elves, Men, and Dwarves, rather than the bottommost position of the hierarchy of Valinor. They became obsessed with "fading", sad, and their arts turned to a kind of embalming, although they retained the old motive of adorning the earth and healing its hurts. Lingering kingdoms remain: The remnant of the old lands of The Silmarillion under Gilgalad, Imladris under Elrond, and Eregion adjacent to Moria. In this third kingdom arose a friendship between the Elves and Dwarves, and smithcraft reached its highest development. But many Elves listened to Sauron, still fair, and still partly in alignment with the Elves, seeking the healing of desolate lands. Actually Sauron exploited the Elves' weak spot. Helping one another they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor, he claimed, but really it was a veiled attack on the gods. Gilgalad and Elrond repulsed his overtures, but in Eregion the Elves came nearest to succumbing to "magic" and machinery. Together with Sauron they made the Rings of Power. Now, of course, there is no mention here of mithril being part of the "healing plan" because it was never intended that way. However, I think Celebrimbor originally moved eastwards nearer to Moria because he knew about the discovery of mithril and clearly saw its potential for crafting generally. What the show has contradicted is the friendship that existed between elves of Eregion and the dwarves of Khazad-Dum at this time. It wasn't just a solitary friendship between one dwarf and one elf but between communities. It is also easy to see how Annatar could have manipulated Celebrimbor if Celeborn was generally antagonistic towards the dwarves and Galadriel was antagonistic towards him: why would they want to prevent such a beneficial assistance to the alliance that he was willing to give? Anyway, I can see how the show runners have used this letter as the basis for their alleged motivation for the elves to create the rings, although I think Tolkien meant something different regarding "fading", which seems more about the retention of the memory of Valinor that sustains them. As you say, since the sun and moon were created from the last vestiges of the two trees, the elves are never without their light. It only applies to the Noldor elves, though, as the Sindar and Silvan elves never went to Valinor, so never knew the light of the two trees. I wish they had brought out better the distinction between the different types of elves. As Tolkien's letter says, the Noldor did consider themselves the "High Elves" and superior to the other inhabitants of Middle Earth, even if it was more as benign overlords than tyrants. The Silvan elves in particular never saw the need to have kings of their own and it was the other two groups who introduced this concept to them and then took it upon themselves to show them how it should be done. I do wonder what the showrunners are going to do with the fact that the moment Sauron put on the One Ring, the bearers of the Three realised how they had been betrayed and that so long as he wore the One, they could not use them. So, if wearing the rings is what fends off the elven "sickness", presumably this would stop working. Perhaps they only need have them in their possession for it to work. After all, all it took was the lump of mithril adjacent to the leaf to heal it. Leaving aside the lore issue, I still think that if Galadriel knows that the rings are part of Sauron's plan, she would want to stop them being made. Gil-galad rasied the objection that one ring was too much power for any individual and I'm pretty sure it was Halbrand who suggested they make two, because clearly at that time he was intending to share his power with Galadriel. So, why on earth does she think that three rings are an improvement? It was still Sauron's idea to make them. At the very least she should inform the others of this and then let them make a decision based off all available information. When Annatar persuaded him to make the rings, Celebrimbor genuinely believed he was an emissary of the Valar sent to help them and it was only on the creation of the One Ring that he realised his mistake. In this version of the story, Galadriel knows that all along Sauron was trying to master this power because Adar told her so and that up to now he had been unsuccessful. She also said herself that whatever had been done up in that northern fortress was pure evil, which suggests that whatever power Sauron was trying to harness was not something they should be messing with. She also rejected Sauron's offer, which suggests that she doesn't think his desire to save the world is genuine or, at the very least, power over the world is his main motivation. Everything is pointing to creating the rings being a really bad idea because they are doing want Sauron wants them to do. I only hope that at some stage they will emphasise that the elven rings are different because they are created with the primary function of healing and preservation rather than control. If true and it's not a coincidence it means Amazon's army of lawyers have found a loophole in their contract with Tolkien's estate that allows them to adopt discarded lore or plot points from Tolkien's writings. The issue with this is that if they're just pillaging his abandoned ideas without vetting them for compatibility with each other it can lead to contradictions within the overarching narrative. With the state of Fading in the elven life cycle i wonder if the writers misunderstood it and thought the elves would view it similarly to how most humans would view death (Amazon's Gil's and Elrond's dread) despite there being a big difference between the two states, or if they know an elf returning to Valinor only delays Fading. With how the show portrays Mithril's impact on the decayed leaf it seems like Amazon's version of the process is implied to be reversible. What bothers me about the creation of the 3 elven rings is that Galadriel knows Halbrand is Sauron but wants to keep his identity, and intentions hidden for reasons, but it seems more like she doesn't want to be subjected to the spectacle of Gil Galad jumping up, and down on a table while screaming "I knew it!" repeatedly at her.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 18, 2022 17:46:08 GMT
What bothers me about the creation of the 3 elven rings is that Galadriel knows Halbrand is Sauron but wants to keep his identity, and intentions hidden for reasons, but it seems more like she doesn't want to be subjected to the spectacle of Gil Galad jumping up, and down on a table while screaming "I knew it!" repeatedly at her. More likely is that the writers just don't appreciate how this makes Galadriel look to outsiders. (Or it is all part of their agenda not to have explicit heroes and villains but only complex characters - even though Galadriel seems anything but at present). I wouldn't mind betting that if asked, they will defend her actions by pointing out that she suggested a change to the plan. However, it is patently obvious that by not telling the others, she is still assisting Sauron. Look how they have Elrond apologise to Galadriel earlier in the episode, saying he will not doubt her again. Then he both finds Galadriel in the river and later the scroll concerning the southern kings, although that only points to Halbrand not being the king. Nevertheless, he doesn't press home his earlier question about how she ended up in the river and why she tried to kill him. So, Elrond is now an idiot. Meanwhile, even allowing for the fact that the alloy solution is not a difficult one to come up with, let's assume it is a revolutionary idea, so why isn't Celebrimbor more curious about how a low man, even a low king, knows so much? I feel sorry for Gil-galad. Not only do they portray him as a jerk, even though he has been proven entirely correct in wanting to send Galadriel to Valinor, but they are never going to give him the satisfaction of knowing he is vindicated. I bet when Sauron creates the One Ring, Galadriel still comes up smelling of roses over it. No doubt she will be the one who suggests they hide them instead of using them.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 18, 2022 19:28:51 GMT
Now, of course, there is no mention here of mithril being part of the "healing plan" because it was never intended that way. However, I think Celebrimbor originally moved eastwards nearer to Moria because he knew about the discovery of mithril and clearly saw its potential for crafting generally. What the show has contradicted is the friendship that existed between elves of Eregion and the dwarves of Khazad-Dum at this time. It wasn't just a solitary friendship between one dwarf and one elf but between communities. It is also easy to see how Annatar could have manipulated Celebrimbor if Celeborn was generally antagonistic towards the dwarves and Galadriel was antagonistic towards him: why would they want to prevent such a beneficial assistance to the alliance that he was willing to give? Particularly since Nenya was the only one of the Thee made of mithril
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2022 11:16:02 GMT
And since Solas seems to be acting out of compassion for and obligation to his people rather than, say, hatred or megalomania, that just so happen to outweigh his compassion for and obligation to ours with our interests appearing to be mutually exclusive, I find him a really interesting example of an antagonist having to choose between two obviously wrong things with us getting the short end of the stick A couple of points here. Generally, people never see themselves as the villain. They will always have an excuse that what they are doing is in the best interests of their country, people, the world, etc. Now I am not saying that we should automatically condemn Solas as an individual because he genuinely believes what he is saying that it is the lesser of two evils. What has always annoyed me is that he never says why that is the only choice he can make. We can actually ask "Why does this world have to die?" Saving "my People" is not a good enough answer because it isn't even clear who his people are. So, saving one group and the expense of countless others and then expressing regret about it, does seem rather disingenuous. Second point: He gives 3 reasons for his original action in raising the Veil: Revenge for the death of Mythal; freeing his people from servitude and saving the world from something even worse (which he doesn't expand upon). Essentially, if he hadn't ruined the world of the elves, the Evanuris would have destroyed the world anyway. So now we come to his justification for his plan to restore the "world of the elves" by destroying the Veil. Once again, he gives 3 reasons: Saving his people (from what exactly he doesn't say), to restore the world he previously destroyed (by destroying the one he replaced it with) and then that apparently it is the only way to save the world (so apparently our world is going to die either way). It sounds awfully familiar to me in that he knows what he wants but then finds reasons to justify it that won't make him seem like an absolute villain, because he wants to appear the hero in his own story. Yet he still won't elaborate on what lies behind these assertions and even says he is withholding information as, presumably, it might aid us in stopping him. That is why I do not regard his professions of regret as genuine. Give me the facts and I might agree with him that he has no alternative. However, withholding information and not allowing me to understand why he must do this, means that he has determined that his way is the only way. He is playing god with the world, despite rejecting the notion that he is one. It is for this reason that I compared him with Sauron (in the series).
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2022 11:39:16 GMT
Particularly since Nenya was the only one of the Thee made of mithril As people have pointed out, if they melted together the gold, silver and mithril into an alloy, why do the 3 rings look different from one another? They couldn't even keep that consistency going in their narrative because that would mean their rings looking even more different to how they were in the films and how they are in the books. It is like cut and paste storytelling or a game of consequences. Each writer contributes something to the overall story, without being told what the other people have written, and then somehow they piece together a narrative from the individual components that constantly contradict one another or lead nowhere. Even without the awful trashing of Tolkien lore, their story is laughable in how disjointed and illogical it is. What is even funnier is how many people are now rooting for the villains, particularly Adar, because on the whole they have seemed more sympathetic and relatable than the "heroes". Galadriel is the true villain of the series in the way she has been presented but the writers seem either oblivious to this or deliberately set out to make her so. This has nothing to do with her being either too masculine (some of her worst traits could be viewed as feminine ones) or portrayed as a warrior. In fact, she is the sort of female character that a misogynist would write. She is just a horrible, selfish, vindictive, malicious, manipulative, secretive, domineering, self-obsessed, self-aggrandizing, self-righteous bitch. Sauron is better off without her. Celeborn (the Wise) probably didn't want to come back and is chilling in a forest somewhere hoping she never finds him.
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 19, 2022 12:37:04 GMT
A couple of points here. Generally, people never see themselves as the villain. They will always have an excuse that what they are doing is in the best interests of their country, people, the world, etc. Now I am not saying that we should automatically condemn Solas as an individual because he genuinely believes what he is saying that it is the lesser of two evils. What has always annoyed me is that he never says why that is the only choice he can make. We can actually ask "Why does this world have to die?" Saving "my People" is not a good enough answer because it isn't even clear who his people are. So, saving one group and the expense of countless others and then expressing regret about it, does seem rather disingenuous. Second point: He gives 3 reasons for his original action in raising the Veil: Revenge for the death of Mythal; freeing his people from servitude and saving the world from something even worse (which he doesn't expand upon). Essentially, if he hadn't ruined the world of the elves, the Evanuris would have destroyed the world anyway. So now we come to his justification for his plan to restore the "world of the elves" by destroying the Veil. Once again, he gives 3 reasons: Saving his people (from what exactly he doesn't say), to restore the world he previously destroyed (by destroying the one he replaced it with) and then that apparently it is the only way to save the world (so apparently our world is going to die either way). It sounds awfully familiar to me in that he knows what he wants but then finds reasons to justify it that won't make him seem like an absolute villain, because he wants to appear the hero in his own story. Yet he still won't elaborate on what lies behind these assertions and even says he is withholding information as, presumably, it might aid us in stopping him. That is why I do not regard his professions of regret as genuine. Give me the facts and I might agree with him that he has no alternative. However, withholding information and not allowing me to understand why he must do this, means that he has determined that his way is the only way. He is playing god with the world, despite rejecting the notion that he is one. It is for this reason that I compared him with Sauron (in the series). Except in that case, the logical, rational, fact-based answer is "I don't know enough about Solas' plans or his choices to make an actual judgement yet or even to confirm that he's telling the truth, but by the sound of it he probably needs to be stopped if we want to live." Not "Solas is probably lying or deceiving himself since he doesn't elaborate. He doesn't actually care about lives lost by his actions. Just like Sauron." It's pretty evident that you're just making assumptions and reading things into what he's saying and judging the character based on those. I don't see any evidence that he's talking about having averted some great elven apocalypse rather than just a world-state he thought he couldn't live with. He obviously didn't know exactly what raising the veil would do when he did it and wasn't in a position to compare the actual relative merits of the two at the time. He is now, and wants to revert it. And by "his people" he probably means the culture and life-form he's been a part of and lead and fought for for potentially thousands of years as opposed to whatever we are. So his plan will probably be to bring those back to whatever extent he can, which we don't know anything about but logically won't be compatible with current laws of magic and physics and biology, since those are the things that suddenly took it away. Which we kind of rely on for the world to work and function for us. So far as we have any way of knowing what he's talking about it pretty much lines up, so I don't see any actual reason to doubt his claims that it's a binary choice, assuming he actually knows what he's doing this time. If you'd accidentally turned everyone else in the world to zombies and wanted to reverse the effect and bring us all back, or at least as many of us or as much humanity as you could, and the zombies vaguely tried to object on the matter and you went ahead anyway, that wouldn't be you "thinking you're the hero in your own story". You'd be acting on actual humanitarian grounds to save lives according to your understanding of what sentient life is at the cost of whatever weird new half-life those things had going on. Meeting a couple you liked and recognizing that they weren't completely worthless as existential creatures wouldn't automatically make their intrinsic value equal to humanity's. That'd be a weird and fucked-up decision you'd have to make, and I'd have a hard time judging you for going one way or the other except being butthurt over my people getting the wrong end of the stick or relieved about you recognizing the true existential value to my mind, respectively. Solas' situation is essentially a painful science fiction quandary he accidentally landed himself in. Sauron just wants to remake the world the way he wants to because he thinks he can. I don't agree that not involving you in the specifics of their plans makes both of those 'playing God'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2022 13:23:47 GMT
I don't see any evidence that he's talking about having averted some great elven apocalypse rather than just a world-state he thought he couldn't live with. No, he actually says this to you. If you ask why he created the Veil, he responds that every alternative was worse. If he hadn't created the Veil and shut them away, the Evanuris would have destroyed the entire world. However, we never learn what form that apocalypse might have taken, just have to imagine it was something worse that what the Veil did, even though Solas did not foresee those consequences. Then in Tevinter Nights, in addition to the reasons he gave to the Inquisitor, that were mostly about restoring the world of the elves and saving his people, he gives Charter the additional excuse that his current actions are also necessary to save this world. The only difference between what he did in the past and what he is doing now, is that he acknowledges that he believes the result of his action will destroy those people of the current world other than his own. So, this time round he is taking action in the knowledge that others will suffer other than his actual enemies, whereas in the past he didn't foresee that would be an unwanted result of what he did.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2022 13:34:55 GMT
If you'd accidentally turned everyone else in the world to zombies and wanted to reverse the effect and bring us all back, or at least as many of us or as much humanity as you could, and the zombies vaguely tried to object on the matter and you went ahead anyway, that wouldn't be you "thinking you're the hero in your own story". This is not a good analogy because generally zombies are trying to harm the non-Zombies. Actually, this is more appropriate to what the Architect was trying to achieve, particularly in the novel the Calling, where he thought the way to avoid conflict was to turn everyone into darkspawn. In Solas' case, though, it may be a matter of survival of his people, although he never explains exactly why they are threatened, but the other races are not responsible for that threat. Yes, many human nations oppress the elves but then Solas doesn't consider the modern elves his people. Besides, there are plenty of other ways he could improve their circumstances without wholescale annihilation of the other races. This is my whole point. If there is some threat to his people or this world that he thinks he can only avert by his action, at least tell us what that threat is. As it stands, it just seems a case of him not liking what his actions resulted in and so wants to reverse them to what he does like, regardless of the consequences for everyone else. Saying that he does see some value to other races now and that he regrets taking the action, does not make it justifiable. Remember if he doesn't like the Inquisitor, he makes no apology for his actions, just says enjoy what life you have left because you're all going to die. He is remaking the world in the way that he wants just because he can.
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 19, 2022 16:51:11 GMT
No, he actually says this to you. If you ask why he created the Veil, he responds that every alternative was worse. If he hadn't created the Veil and shut them away, the Evanuris would have destroyed the entire world. However, we never learn what form that apocalypse might have taken, just have to imagine it was something worse that what the Veil did, even though Solas did not foresee those consequences. Then in Tevinter Nights, in addition to the reasons he gave to the Inquisitor, that were mostly about restoring the world of the elves and saving his people, he gives Charter the additional excuse that his current actions are also necessary to save this world. The only difference between what he did in the past and what he is doing now, is that he acknowledges that he believes the result of his action will destroy those people of the current world other than his own. So, this time round he is taking action in the knowledge that others will suffer other than his actual enemies, whereas in the past he didn't foresee that would be an unwanted result of what he did. No-pe. Am finished rooting through Youtube footage of Trespasser tracing people's weird interpretations of vague statements to justify their ideas. Even if you gave me an unambiguous quote about the world being actually destroyed if he hadn't raised the Veil which I don't remember ever hearing come out of his mouth, that wouldn't automatically imply that whatever it was would still be an issue when he tears it down. And I can't say anything about Tevinter Nights as I haven't read it, but it doesn't take a high IQ to realize that Thedas as-is isn't a sustainable setting one way or the other. By all rights it should already have been swallowed up by the darkspawn or destroyed itself in a magical civil war, and would have if not for successive miracles. I feel pretty confident saying that it probably won't survive the next millennia without knowing anything about potential threats you don't. This is not a good analogy because generally zombies are trying to harm the non-Zombies. Actually, this is more appropriate to what the Architect was trying to achieve, particularly in the novel the Calling, where he thought the way to avoid conflict was to turn everyone into darkspawn. In Solas' case, though, it may be a matter of survival of his people, although he never explains exactly why they are threatened, but the other races are not responsible for that threat. Yes, many human nations oppress the elves but then Solas doesn't consider the modern elves his people. Besides, there are plenty of other ways he could improve their circumstances without wholescale annihilation of the other races. This is my whole point. If there is some threat to his people or this world that he thinks he can only avert by his action, at least tell us what that threat is. As it stands, it just seems a case of him not liking what his actions resulted in and so wants to reverse them to what he does like, regardless of the consequences for everyone else. Saying that he does see some value to other races now and that he regrets taking the action, does not make it justifiable. Remember if he doesn't like the Inquisitor, he makes no apology for his actions, just says enjoy what life you have left because you're all going to die. He is remaking the world in the way that he wants just because he can. Uhm. My analogy was everyone being turned into zombies, or undead, or whatever. No truly sentient life left on Earth going by the old standard, unless you reverse the effect and kill all the zombies by replacing them with humans again. Don't know how 'zombies attacking non-zombies' is relevant to that scenario, and even if it was it still doesn't fundamentally change the point of having to choose between the existence of two kinds of life-forms. It's not like humans don't "generally" attack the rest of the world. You're just dodging the issue. The Architect's plan to violate everyone who isn't a darkspawn to create a world his people would prefer because peaceful parasitic coexistence is difficult and unlikely isn't comparable at all. It'd be much more apt compare an Architect who'd succeeded in doing so, suddenly realized what a terrible plan it was, and started to reverse the Taint to bring uncorrupted sentient life back to Thedas at the expense of his newly-created semi-sentient darkspawn dying. Naturally they would have the right to resist to preserve their own existences, but would you call him more evil for reversing his course than for staying it? And again, the question isn't whether everyone else should feel convinced and compelled to lay down their lives for Solas' plan, it's whether he seems objectively evil or uncaring about human life for thinking it's the right thing to do. If you had to put a bullet in someone's head literally to prevent the end of the universe then telling them why you're doing it would be nice, sure, but I don't see that not doing so would be the thing that automatically made the plan evil. Especially if telling them would endanger the universe's chances by warning and arming them with knowledge about how to resist. Maybe it's just me who draws a fundamental ethical line between affecting change explicitly in order to protect or save or preserve others, and doing it just because you don't like the way the world looks? Huh. That's kind of depressing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 20, 2022 11:01:01 GMT
Maybe it's just me who draws a fundamental ethical line between affecting change explicitly in order to protect or save or preserve others, and doing it just because you don't like the way the world looks? Huh. That's kind of depressing. I think we are actually on the same page here; it is just that we look differently at Solas' motives. You are saying he is trying to restore/preserve one group at the expense of the others. My objections are based on the fact that we never get a real definition of who he sees as his people or why they are in danger. Is it just being done for the sake of a small group of ancient elves who might otherwise become like all the other modern elves? What is the problem with that? They are still able to exist but along the same lines as everyone else. They may not be exactly as they were but they do not go extinct if he doesn't act. So, it doesn't seem ethical to destroy the 99% of the population just to preserve this 1% in their original state. From that point of view, it is just a case that he is taking his action because he "doesn't like the way the world looks. No-pe. Am finished rooting through Youtube footage of Trespasser tracing people's weird interpretations of vague statements to justify their ideas. Even if you gave me an unambiguous quote about the world being actually destroyed if he hadn't raised the Veil which I don't remember ever hearing come out of his mouth, that wouldn't automatically imply that whatever it was would still be an issue when he tears it dow At the risk of appearing pedantic about this, please check out this video at 3:26-3:28. He specifically states: " Had I not created the Veil, the Evanuris would have destroyed the entire world." There is no ambiguity about it. The world of the elves was in peril of imminent destruction by the Evanuris, he created the Veil and shut them away so they could no longer do this. Whatever negative effects came from his action; he averted the main one which was destruction of the entire world. (Other parts of his conversation suggest that Mythal was also trying to stop them and that is why they killed her). Surely reversing his action will re-introduce exactly the same peril as before. We can actually point this out. Won't that mean the Evanuris are free (to destroy the world again)? His response: "I had plans". Yeh, with the same degree of foresight for the consequences as he had last time I suppose. Anyway, given what he does say in Tevinter Nights, it would seem we are presented with a no-win situation. Whilst we don't know what the imminent peril is to the current world, he maintains if he doesn't take action, the world will be destroyed and so everyone will die. If he does take action, then a select few will survive but everyone else will die, but the world will be saved. (I could accept this if I knew what the threat to the world was, but he declines to tell us). However, it is entirely possible that his action will release the Evanuris and they will destroy the world anyway.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2022 14:25:03 GMT
At the risk of appearing pedantic about this, please check out this video at 3:26-3:28. He specifically states: " Had I not created the Veil, the Evanuris would have destroyed the entire world." There is no ambiguity about it. The world of the elves was in peril of imminent destruction by the Evanuris, he created the Veil and shut them away so they could no longer do this. Whatever negative effects came from his action; he averted the main one which was destruction of the entire world. (Other parts of his conversation suggest that Mythal was also trying to stop them and that is why they killed her). Surely reversing his action will re-introduce exactly the same peril as before. We can actually point this out. Won't that mean the Evanuris are free (to destroy the world again)? His response: "I had plans". Yeh, with the same degree of foresight for the consequences as he had last time I suppose. Anyway, given what he does say in Tevinter Nights, it would seem we are presented with a no-win situation. Whilst we don't know what the imminent peril is to the current world, he maintains if he doesn't take action, the world will be destroyed and so everyone will die. If he does take action, then a select few will survive but everyone else will die, but the world will be saved. (I could accept this if I knew what the threat to the world was, but he declines to tell us). However, it is entirely possible that his action will release the Evanuris and they will destroy the world anyway. My one comment here is that Solas is not necessarily stating a fact, but his own opinion given what he saw. And Solas is quite opinionated. He has also been wrong before. He seriously miscalculated Corypheus' abilities when he allowed him to obtain the orb. And holds a VERY low opinion of all the current races on Thedas. Note he doesn't say how or why the Evanuris would destroy the world, jus that they would. Now granted a bunch of elven demigods drunk on power and careless of their surroundings could conceivably destroy the world thorough their own carelessness or petty bickering. But that's a more abstract threat than an immanent threat.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 20, 2022 16:35:57 GMT
WHAT IN THE fIDDLESTICKS?! All THIS TALK OF DRAGON AGE IN HERE IS ALL YOUR FAULT AMAZON! YOU'LL RUUUEEEEE...
Being serious now, Gaider needs to partner up with someone like Whedon and pitch a live action DA series to Bezos or HBO.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 20, 2022 17:24:42 GMT
Being serious now, Gaider needs to partner up with someone like Whedon and pitch a live action DA series to Bezos or HBO. Given their respective track records, I'd definitely go for HBO on that one. Currently, I wouldn't let Amazon touch any other fantasy franchise with a barge pole. It is not just Rings of Power but apparently Wheel of Time as well, although I couldn't comment on the latter since I've not read the books. Now there are some hopeful signs that the animated film about the War of the Rohirrim may be in safe hands, since the director has been actively criticising RoP on Twitter for not keeping to the lore, which would be a very dodgy move if his film hadn't. Sadly, we have to wait until Spring 2024 for its release. However, that could be bad news for RoP because their second season is meant to be airing around that time, so people are likely to make direct comparisons. It seems Amazon can't catch a break: their first season comes out at the same time as House of the Dragon and then their second seems likely to coincide with the War of the Rohirrim.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 20, 2022 17:30:40 GMT
Now granted a bunch of elven demigods drunk on power and careless of their surroundings could conceivably destroy the world thorough their own carelessness or petty bickering. But that's a more abstract threat than an immanent threat. Bearing in mind that according to the Dalish it was a battle between two factions of demi-gods, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, and both sides had considerably more magical power than people do post Veil, it is conceivably that it could escalate to such an extent that there wouldn't be much left of the world. It certainly wouldn't be much fun for the ordinary elves and other folk caught in the middle. Anyway, no doubt we'll discover more next game. Hier0phant is right though, if we wish to continue with this discussion, we really ought to move it to the Solas thread.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 20, 2022 17:34:38 GMT
You might find this video interesting which articulates what I've been trying to say more eloquently than I have succeeded in doing. It seems to be very much from a Christian perspective, so would likely reflect what Tolkien was trying to achieve with his various female characters. Note what it says about positive masculine and feminine power being complementary rather than in opposition and that when they are working together the possibilities are infinite. I feel this is what Galadriel and Celeborn represented in their union, the ultimate combination of masculine and feminine power working in unity. It is noticeable that in the books, Celeborn endeavours to continue on in Middle Earth after the departure of Galadriel, because it has always been his home, but before long he grew weary of trying to sustain his rule without her and follows Galadriel into the west.
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Post by Hier0phant on Oct 20, 2022 21:12:27 GMT
Being serious now, Gaider needs to partner up with someone like Whedon and pitch a live action DA series to Bezos or HBO. Given their respective track records, I'd definitely go for HBO on that one. Currently, I wouldn't let Amazon touch any other fantasy franchise with a barge pole. It is not just Rings of Power but apparently Wheel of Time as well, although I couldn't comment on the latter since I've not read the books. Now there are some hopeful signs that the animated film about the War of the Rohirrim may be in safe hands, since the director has been actively criticising RoP on Twitter for not keeping to the lore, which would be a very dodgy move if his film hadn't. Sadly, we have to wait until Spring 2024 for its release. However, that could be bad news for RoP because their second season is meant to be airing around that time, so people are likely to make direct comparisons. It seems Amazon can't catch a break: their first season comes out at the same time as House of the Dragon and then their second seems likely to coincide with the War of the Rohirrim. With Bezos tossing away a billion usd i figured DG could earn a nice paycheck, and retire. Also, why does Amazon need two years for RoP S2? Do they think the public will forget about S1 by then? Though hearing about WoTR's director criticizing RoP's lore gives me some hope about his film's potential.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 21, 2022 9:20:38 GMT
Also, why does Amazon need two years for RoP S2? Do they think the public will forget about S1 by then? We will never get the true story on this. Clearly, if they had been so confident about the reception for season one, they wouldn't have delayed so long in shooting season two. Yet, the same show runners/chief writers are still in charge and to some extent in a state of denial about how badly they have erred in their adaptation. It remains to be seen if they do change course enough to make it more recognisable as an adaptation of Tolkien's work rather than just exploiting his name and characters. As some people have pointed out, even if season two does keep closer to canon, they have made such egregious changes in season one that the damage has been done already. Nevertheless, considering how meandering the story was in season one and the inconsistencies in their own plotlines from episode to episode, it might be possible to change course and simply ignore some of what they established going forward. For example, they originally had the cop out that the mithril legend was just that, a story, and not actually true. Then they showed it healing the leaf but if they handwaved that away (or came up with a reason why it occurred), then they could reset back to mithril just being a rare but useful ore. Making the rings out of order will be somewhat more difficult to overcome but it might be possible to fudge it if Sauron returns to Eregion under another guise. The worst bit for me is the fact that Galadriel knew Halbrand was Sauron before they made the elven rings. They definitely need to do something about Galadriel's character as well. There were indications she was becoming more reflective in episode 7 but then she was back to her usual self in episode 8. Perhaps they can send her off on a quest to find Celeborn, which will both keep her out of Eregion and maybe give her some further time for introspection, moving her away from the person they established in season one to something more resembling the true Galadriel. She needs to start showing some compassion and empathy for others, which was always one of Galadriel's strong points. Though hearing about WoTR's director criticizing RoP's lore gives me some hope about his film's potential. Let's hope he doesn't get too much studio interference, as I gather that was part of the problem with the Hobbit. It seems Peter Jackson was trying his best to save a doomed project but the studio kept pressuring him to include stuff that would have been better left out. It was their idea to stretch it out into three movies, when it was originally going to be only two, and to put in all the various references to the LotR movies, which seemed out of place (and has been copied by the writers of RoP). Had Peter Jackson been the director from the beginning, he would likely have been in a stronger position to resist studio interference. Incidentally, have you seen that a fan has developed their own edit of the Hobbit that leaves out all the extraneous stuff (not in the book) and other bits that don't seem necessary as well as toning down the colour, coming up with a run time around 50% of the trilogy. Apparently, they were really disappointed by the movies but thought that with a bit of judicious pruning, they could be valued as valid adaptations, because on the whole the performances and visuals were good, it was just all the extra stuff that let them down. I have only been able to find extracts on You Tube but there is meant to be an entire version out there somewhere and people who have seen it say that it is really good.
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