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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 22, 2022 17:47:54 GMT
A bit of trivia. This actor, Tom Budge, was originally said to have been cast as Celebrimbor but then dropped out after filming some early episodes. This picture seems to show him in the role. It isn't clear why he was dropped but it seems it was Amazon's decision and not his own. I am curious about this because visually he looks far more appropriate to the role than Charles Edwards (who looks far too old) but, of course, looks aren't everything and it is possible he didn't fit the character, although Celebrimbor hasn't really had an awful lot to do that stretches the actor's skills. On the other hand, if Tom Budge was kicking back against some of the awful dialogue or questioned the motivations they had given his character, that might explain them giving him the boot. I also wondered if in fact Celebrimbor was originally meant to have the close relationship with Durin (as is the case in the books) but they swapped his lines to Elrond when Budge was replaced. Note also that if this is in fact a still shot of Budge in the role, at that time the character did have long hair.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 22, 2022 18:09:05 GMT
More trivia. This actor, Will Poulter, should have played Elrond. As you can see, he looks very like a younger version of Hugo Weaving. Poulter withdrew because of scheduling conflicts. This was early on before they had begun filming. I wonder if he saw the script and changed his mind. Auditions didn't use the actual script for the show and initially the actors didn't know what role they were auditioning for, so he could have signed on originally on the basis of what he knew from the auditions and then changed him mind when something else came along that he thought was better for his career.
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Post by cribbian on Oct 23, 2022 13:27:14 GMT
A bit of trivia. This actor, Tom Budge, was originally said to have been cast as Celebrimbor but then dropped out after filming some early episodes. This picture seems to show him in the role. It isn't clear why he was dropped but it seems it was Amazon's decision and not his own. I am curious about this because visually he looks far more appropriate to the role than Charles Edwards (who looks far too old) but, of course, looks aren't everything and it is possible he didn't fit the character, although Celebrimbor hasn't really had an awful lot to do that stretches the actor's skills. On the other hand, if Tom Budge was kicking back against some of the awful dialogue or questioned the motivations they had given his character, that might explain them giving him the boot. I also wondered if in fact Celebrimbor was originally meant to have the close relationship with Durin (as is the case in the books) but they swapped his lines to Elrond when Budge was replaced. Note also that if this is in fact a still shot of Budge in the role, at that time the character did have long hair. That's the reforging of Narsil from the movies though, isn't it?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 23, 2022 18:15:11 GMT
That's the reforging of Narsil from the movies though, isn't it? Yes, you are correct. I should have checked better before posting. The two images were first posted on OneRing.Net back in July 2021 when they were divulging rumours about the show. Don't know why the image was linked with Tom Budge, though, unless they were just trying to add flavour so people would understand which character they were referring to when they mentioned Celebrimbor. You have to admit there is a similarity in the facial structure of the actor doing the forging. However, I had wondered why the two smiths looked so similar and checking back, I see that people speculated it was meant to show the twin sons of Elrond doing the reforging, which would be the only time they appear in the trilogy. Anyway, the rest of my post stands. Tom Budge does look more appropriate facially for Celebrimbor, being the right sort of age and having the bone structure to pull it off. Elves really do look better with long hair and the majority of the short hair styles in the show seem too modern to me. I've always felt that long flowing hair is more indicative of Tolkien's elves, since he describes it as such on Glorfindel, etc., than pointed ears, since he never says anything about them. Also, whilst Elrond is said to look ageless, neither old nor young, the high elves are said to look young and, in the case of Galadriel and Celeborn, the only sign of age might be seen in the depth of their eyes. One of the most disappointing things visually about the Rings of Power is that their elves look no different to the humans, except for the ears. Also, Galadriel's short stature. In the LotR both Celeborn and Galadriel are said to be "very tall". The showrunners also reference the fact from Unfinished Tales that one of the names she was given in her youth by her mother, Nerwen, meant "man-maidan", (to justify their choice in depicting her as they do), yet conveniently overlook the reason for this is because she was so tall and athletic. Even more ironic, the name Galadriel was actually given to her by Celeborn, so it was effectively his affectionate name for her, which she preferred to use rather than the names given to her by her parents. Funny how in the show she doesn't even mention him until episode 7 and yet every time someone says her name, she is reminded of him (I have a feeling this is another thing they have conveniently ignored whilst using what suits them from the books to which they don't officially have the rights).
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2022 2:32:55 GMT
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 24, 2022 16:23:08 GMT
Ok, I finished wathcing the series now. I binged the last 3 epsiodes, since I had a break in between anyway and they were all out. Caught up on the thread and I have to say, you guys are really depressing to read. You are focusing a lot on how the series is not like the books and how that makes it so much worse. I don't necessarily disagree with that but I got over it pretty much after the first episode and tried to enjoy the series for what it is: A different story in a somewhat different universe that's been adapted for a tv production. This has a bunch of negative points but IMO, it also has a bunch of good ones. For example, had they just adapted the book story completely faithfully (pretending that they had the license to the Silmarilion and everything else), we'd all know exactly what would happen. The only alure to the show would be to see how exactly they visualized it. Instead, here, I did enjoy puzzling over which one of the more mysterious characters will be Sauron in the end. I thought it was fun that they kept it kinda ambiguous until the final episode and it wouldn't have worked if they simply went with the original story. Also, i really just did enjoy a lot of the visuals. I thought the eruption of Mount Doom and the subsequent (and still ongoing) transformation of the land into what we know the Plain of Gorgoroth to loook like later was spectacularly done. In general, a lot of the "old" Middleearth looked pretty good. In the beginning I thought it was a little too colorful but I do think they toned it down over the course of the first season, which would be a cool effect to use as Sauron gains power and the land decays. And yes, the whole Mithril origin BS was silly and yes, I certainly also would have preferred it if the elves didn't all of a sudden have a high stakes thing going no there, so yea, there are issues for sure and I certainly do hope they improve a lot of stuff in season 2. But still, I did have a lot of fun with this first one, despite the gripes. A lot of issues I do have are still pending as well, such as, what is actually going on with the other rings? Why weren't the made first and how will Sauron corrupt them now that he is gone from Eregion? But I'll hold judgement there until we know how the series will deal with this in the future. All in all, if the LOtR movies are a 10/10 adaptation for me and the Hobbit movies (which I don't like that much) are, say a 5/10 (they still have their up sides as well), I would probably give this a tentative 7/10. For me it really falls in somewhere in between and a lot of it is still up in the air.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 25, 2022 9:49:39 GMT
For example, had they just adapted the book story completely faithfully (pretending that they had the license to the Silmarilion and everything else), we'd all know exactly what would happen. The only alure to the show would be to see how exactly they visualized it Surely, that was also true of the Lord of the Rings. Essentially that is the essence of an adaptation and people who have read the book will know what happens. The enjoyment (or otherwise) they get from viewing it is in seeing how those responsible have translated the material to screen, how they have envisaged the appearance of the characters and the world they occupy, and how well the actors inhabit their roles. On the whole though, you do expect an adaptation to be reasonably faithful to the source material and at the very least keep to the main plot lines and portrayal of established characters. People who have not read the books will just take it as it comes and not have any idea where the plot is going. Rings of Power is really just "based on" or "inspired by" the world of Tolkien. Even iconic characters from the books seem so changed as to be barely recognisable. The plot is progressing in an entirely different way and relationships between characters and races have been altered. Whilst compressing the timeline can be understood to an extent, they have gone beyond this to progressing events totally out of order. Obviously, this will not matter to people who are new to the material but Tolkien nerds like myself feel that the showrunners have not been honest with them. If they had come out from the beginning and said that they were not going to keep to the source material, then I think there would have been less negativity. Now they are starting to give their reasoning for the changes, trying to justify it from the source material, it isn't sounding a lot better. Anyway, since you did enjoy the show, I have a question for you. Did it seem to you that Halbrand was always playing Galadriel, or do you think he was genuinely trying to make a fresh start until she pushed him back to Middle Earth? Even the show runners are being somewhat ambiguous on this. On the one hand they seem to suggest it was all part of his master plan (which seems to involve an awful lot of coincidences for it to work) and then in another interview they seem to suggest that it was all an unhappy accident that caused Galadriel and Halbrand to cross paths. Another question, what did you make of the "key" plot. It seemed to me there were elements that just didn't add up. Who built the tower and the dam? If it was Sauron/Morgoth, why didn't the elves question its purpose? If it was the elves, why did they include a lock operated by an enemy key? Why did the picture showing the key, seemingly also show someone being cut in half, which I seem to recall is what Adar said he did to Sauron? That seems to indicate the sword had another significance other than just opening the dam. Was it actually necessary for this to happen in order for Sauron's plan to proceed? (So, Adar was also simply his unwitting puppet). Why would a mere "key" have such an allure to Theo? We never see what happened to the sword hilt after the events of episode 6, so do you think it will come into play again?
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 25, 2022 14:25:43 GMT
For example, had they just adapted the book story completely faithfully (pretending that they had the license to the Silmarilion and everything else), we'd all know exactly what would happen. The only alure to the show would be to see how exactly they visualized it Surely, that was also true of the Lord of the Rings. Essentially that is the essence of an adaptation and people who have read the book will know what happens. The enjoyment (or otherwise) they get from viewing it is in seeing how those responsible have translated the material to screen, how they have envisaged the appearance of the characters and the world they occupy, and how well the actors inhabit their roles. On the whole though, you do expect an adaptation to be reasonably faithful to the source material and at the very least keep to the main plot lines and portrayal of established characters. People who have not read the books will just take it as it comes and not have any idea where the plot is going. Rings of Power is really just "based on" or "inspired by" the world of Tolkien. Even iconic characters from the books seem so changed as to be barely recognisable. The plot is progressing in an entirely different way and relationships between characters and races have been altered. Whilst compressing the timeline can be understood to an extent, they have gone beyond this to progressing events totally out of order. Obviously, this will not matter to people who are new to the material but Tolkien nerds like myself feel that the showrunners have not been honest with them. If they had come out from the beginning and said that they were not going to keep to the source material, then I think there would have been less negativity. Now they are starting to give their reasoning for the changes, trying to justify it from the source material, it isn't sounding a lot better. That's a fair viewpoint. I guess I didn't really pay enough attention beforehand. I always expected it to just be "based on" Tolkien's stories (after all, it even has a title that directly corresponds to one Tolkien's works) , so i didn't have much of a problem with it. However, if they did give a different impression before the launch of the show, then yea, I get the disappointment. Concerning Helbrand: I can't say for sure of course but my interpretation is that he always was Sauron and never really was "a good guy". Exhibit A for me is the way he is first introduced on this raft and coming upon Galadriel in the middle of the ocean. From the very beginning that was rather suspect and I can't think it was a chance meeting. I don't know if the other people on the raft were genuine refugees or even people under his sway that were sacrificed to give Galadriel a good show. The way I see it, it is entirely plausible that Sauron - through his animal spies, which certainly also could exist in the sea - learned that an elf who was hunting him for the longest time had refused to go to Valinor and was now out there. The perfect opportunity to try and corrupt his enemy, no? In Numenor, we get a lot of hints that Helbrand might be Sauron. He says and does a lot of very manipulative things, both to Galadriel and to Pharazon. Galadriel herself even acknowledges shortly before they sail for Middleearth "Some might say you have used me". His exact relation to Adar and the renegade orcs is tough to judge at this point. He might have genuinely seem them as traitors, which is why he has no problem killing them alongside the Numenorians during the battle. He might also not have wished for "the Mordor plan" to be executed yet at this point which is why he helped Galadriel trip Adar's horse and capture him (and the fake key) ... or maybe he already knew that the key was fake, tough to say. I do think most of the questions concerning Mordor, the key and Sauron's perspective on how exactly the eruption of Mount Doom went down will certainly be covered in season 2. After all, Adar escaped, Rodrick is still out there as well and they should encounter Sauron pretty quickly after the season 1 finale. That will be an interesting meeting. Will Sauron kill Arda? Will Arda rejoin Sauron? Both are equally possible at this point if you ask me. There aer a few things, which I think I can provide (my interpretation) of answers for: 1. The key being an artifact of the "dark side" with some mysterious effects, well, I am totally ok with that. I mean, come on, there are so many strange and magical things in middle earth, it's not like it doesn't fit in. 2. The tower with the monument: I believe I read somewhere that the showrunners did say that the tower was definitely built by the forces of Morgoth and only later occupied by the elves (which is why that monument is there). 3. I my view, the plan with the dam was a long term bacjup plan, conceived when Morgoth was still around. It's in fact - I believe - the plan Galadriel discovers in the Hall of Lore in Numenor, when she realizes the mark of Sauron isin fact a crude map. Why did no one catch on? Well, because without the orc tunnels, the water would never have flown in the direction of Mount Doom, so from the surface, it never occured to anyone that there could be a problem even if the dam broke. And even though some of the orc's work was on the surface, I would guess that even then, without the tunnels, it didn't even come close to be a danger. At least that's they way I saw things, not sure how close to the real intention of the authors this is. And yea, many answers are definitely still missing. But in a way, that's the main reason I am ok with them altering the story. It means we have quite a few mysteries to ponder while we wait for the next season and I for one think they are pretty decent and interesting mysteries in the way they are set up. Will they be resolved well? I am not sure. We;ve seen plenty of shows and authors fail at providing decent resolutions. But for now, I am willing to wait with an open mind and see what they come up with.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 25, 2022 14:49:11 GMT
But in a way, that's the main reason I am ok with them altering the story. It means we have quite a few mysteries to ponder while we wait for the next season and I for one think they are pretty decent and interesting mysteries in the way they are set up. Will they be resolved well? To be honest, now I have resigned myself to the fact that it is not going to follow Tolkien's plot, I have a certain curiosity to see how it will play out. 1. The key being an artifact of the "dark side" with some mysterious effects, well, I am totally ok with that. I mean, come on, there are so many strange and magical things in middle earth, it's not like it doesn't fit in. I don't have a problem with the sword hilt being a strange, magical object. It was the use it was put to that seemed somewhat underwhelming. I can understand that it could be intentionally obscure on the part of Sauron, so it would be difficult for the plan to be activated earlier than he wanted. You had to know about how to extend the sword and what to use it for. The old guy knew about the blood but not about the use until Adar told him. However, it is the effect on Theo that I am curious about since I know other people have likened it to the One Ring. Also, Arondir found it impossible to even make a dent in it, just like the Ring. Perhaps the other use for the sword hilt is that Sauron is going to melt it down to make the One Ring. That would then be a mirror to Galadriel having to use her dagger for the elf rings.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 27, 2022 3:35:31 GMT
So may good puns but "Remember Galadriel? well, she is not Cate Blanch-yet" already killed me.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 28, 2022 11:56:13 GMT
Apparently there’s a rumor going around that the current show runners may get sidelined for Season 2
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 29, 2022 9:11:58 GMT
Apparently there’s a rumor going around that the current show runners may get sidelined for Season 2 It sounds as though they are just bringing someone in to oversee things, which may improve the pacing issues and ensure that the narrative is kept tighter but it is hard to see how they are going to fix some of the more glaring issues to do with the characters and plot, particularly where the rings are concerned. I still find it hard to understand how a series called Rings of Power didn't focus on that aspect of the narrative for the first season. Now it is all going to be back to front and it is still not clear how the elven rings are meant to work, based off their weird mithril retcon. What I would like to see is how they develop the Adar plot. He actually made sense with the established lore and he was someone that had real potential, so I hope they don't waste him.
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 3, 2022 17:58:32 GMT
Okay, I have some thoughts about what could have been and I think the showrunners made a core misstep when they got it in their heads that Sauron’s identity should be a mystery:
There’s an interview quote out there where the showrunners said that they decided to invent Halbrand and remove Annatar because they didn’t want book readers to be ahead of the characters… which is a baffling thing to say. When adapting a work, one expects them to be the same. Readers aren’t going to think something’s lesser just because they were spoiled by reading the source material. They also seemed to think Annatar as described in the source material was too obviously Sauron to take seriously.
This made me realize that these show runners decided early on to use an overarching mystery to try and drive audience intrigue in the story. Given that these two are supposedly protege of “Mr. Mystery Box” himself, J.J. Abrams, this might be unsurprising. They thought the story would be boring if anyone knew the answer beforehand. With that in mind, I can sort of understand why they thought the story of Annatar might not fit that formula very well… but that’s because they’re applying the wrong formula, not that source material can’t be made into a good TV show.
There’s a famous example given by Alfred Hitchcock about how the audience having knowledge the character’s don’t can be used to build tension in film:
Three characters sit down in a restaurant. Three minutes into their conversion, a time bomb blows up the restaurant. This is surprising, but there isn’t any tension because the audience had no way of knowing that might happen.
Instead, show the audience the time bomb under the table, then have the characters sit down for their talk. Now the audience is very tense during this conversation because they know something is going to happen, but not when.
Similarly, Annatar’s true nature should have been used as a source of tension, not a mystery. We should have seen him help the elves against (staged) orc incursions and ingratiate himself to them while the audience knows who he truly is. Seeing him scheme and not knowing exactly what he’s up to (save the overall goal of creating the rings) could have been used to create tension amongst the elves. If they must include an Istari, perhaps Sauron might have attempted to frame them (ragged and dirty compared to his beautiful Annatar form) as a suspicious enemy. Perhaps he could have played Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel against one another. It might turn into more of a drama than an epic, but so what? There’s clearly an appetite for that.
A plot where Galadriel realizes who he is but attempts to push him toward redemption instead of revealing him could also work in this setting. For one it would allow for a much more in character Galadriel (demonstrating insight and compassion) and explore what Tolkien once wrote about the possibility of Sauron’s redemption. There was a point, Tolkien wrote, after the defeat of Morgoth when Sauron might have turned away from darkness. That would require he possessed the humility and bravery to submit himself to judgement before the Valar. Lacking these qualities, he fled further down his master’s path.
There are definitely elements of a good plot that could be built here, but it seems to me that the showrunners set their heart on keeping this mystery pretty much for its own sake.
TLDR: The Rings of Power is yet another casualty of Mystery Box storytelling. Now that I think about, The Wheel of Time show had a similar problem of building a mystery plot where they probably shouldn’t have.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 3, 2022 22:46:57 GMT
Okay, I have some thoughts about what could have been and I think the showrunners made a core misstep when they got it in their heads that Sauron’s identity should be a mystery: There’s an interview quote out there where the showrunners said that they decided to invent Halbrand and remove Annatar because they didn’t want book readers to be ahead of the characters… which is a baffling thing to say. When adapting a work, one expects them to be the same. Readers aren’t going to think something’s lesser just because they were spoiled by reading the source material. They also seemed to think Annatar as described in the source material was too obviously Sauron to take seriously. Halbrand was the only really capable man in the series. OF COURSE he was evil!
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2022 9:32:45 GMT
Similarly, Annatar’s true nature should have been used as a source of tension, not a mystery. We should have seen him help the elves against (staged) orc incursions and ingratiate himself to them while the audience knows who he truly is. Seeing him scheme and not knowing exactly what he’s up to (save the overall goal of creating the rings) could have been used to create tension amongst the elves. If they must include an Istari, perhaps Sauron might have attempted to frame them (ragged and dirty compared to his beautiful Annatar form) as a suspicious enemy. Perhaps he could have played Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel against one another. It might turn into more of a drama than an epic, but so what? There’s clearly an appetite for that. This is why I find their approach to the source material so disappointing. Bezoz wanted a Game of Thrones and the 2nd Age is full of political intrigue both among the elves and the humans (not so much among the dwarves). To a large extent this is exactly what Sauron did. He ingratiated himself with Celebrimbor, recognising that vanity and ambition were probably his chief weaknesses. Gil'galad, Elrond and Galadriel all thought something was off with Anatar but didn't really have more than a gut feeling about him. On the face of it he was charismatic and helpful, appearing eager to assist their goals of preservation and healing of the world following the destruction of the 1st Age. I could easily see how he could have used Celeborn's prejudice against the dwarves to drive a wedge between Celebrimbor and the couple. Not to mention the fact that Celebrimbor was in love with Galadriel too, which I'm sure Anatar would have found a way to use. Watching a puppet master pulling everyone's strings, knowing that he is not genuine, can be very compelling viewing. Instead, they ignored all that potential for the sake of a stupid mystery box and a "romance" between Sauron and Galadriel. Celebrimbor did have a very good relationship with the dwarves of the Blue Mountains and then later Khazad'Dum, choosing to relocate near there because of their discovery of mithril. Incidentally, where is Narvi? This skilled dwarven craftsman built the western doors of Moria that we see in the Lord of the Rings, whilst Celebrimbor created the writing in mithril upon them. That is what I find so frustrating. This is not information in the Silmarillion but in works to which they do have the rights. They could have had the close friendship between Celebrimbor and Narvi, rather than Durin and Elrond, which is not found anywhere in the books. The first season could have started with the pair working on various weapons and armour made from mithril, as well as the doors, before Anatar turned up and focused Celebrimbor's attention on creating the rings. I also feel Celebrimbor could have been made a much more talented, sympathetic and ultimately tragic character. He genuinely wanted to do good with his creations. It is entirely possible that wanting to impress Galadriel by aiding her ambitions was a strong motivation for him. Ultimately, he did succeed in making the elven rings without Sauron's help, although based on the knowledge he gifted him. He managed to ensure their safety before his capture by Sauron and then withstood brutal torture to keep them hidden. His death was horrific but the friendship he had cultivated with the dwarves ensured the survival of Celeborn and Elrond since it was the dwarves attacking from the west gate of Moria that slowed the advance of Sauron's army and allowed their escape. Ultimately, the three ring bearers, but particularly Galadriel, were able to use the rings he created during the 3rd Age to do much of the good that was intended in their creation. Done well, the audience could have really identified with his character and been shocked and distressed at his death. The RoP Celebrimbor has barely been seen and has demonstrated none of the depth to his character or genuine skill at crafting. Will anyone really shed any tears if they kill him off next season? A plot where Galadriel realizes who he is but attempts to push him toward redemption instead of revealing him could also work in this setting. I feel that this could never have worked and remained true to the original story. The whole point was that Celebrimbor trusted Sauron without knowing his identity and Galadriel didn't trust him whilst also being unaware of who he was, essentially feminine intuition. Whilst it would have come as no surprise to her that Anatar betrayed Celebrimbor, even Galadriel was probably shocked to discover the truth of who he really was. Galadriel knowing this in advance of the creation of the rings changes the whole dynamic of the story. This means either she has been totally fooled by him, knowing who he was but believing his claim to want redemption or if he was genuinely seeking redemption, then whilst she might accept his claim, would she not also know immediately when he had his change of heart? If Galadriel could sense the shadow on Feanor's heart back in Valinor before the creation of the Silmarils, she would know if there was a doubt about Sauron. The RoP version is even worse because she deliberately withheld information from the other leaders before the creation of the rings and, depending on whether you think his repentance was genuine or not, is apparently the reason he has returned to his former ways. They would argue that the elves have no choice but to make the rings because of the whole faux mithril plot (which the writers maintain was left deliberately ambiguous because of the "apocryphal" nature of the story) but I am still left puzzling why telling them to make an alloy has suddenly left the rings open to being dominated by Sauron's magic. In the real story it would seem that Sauron showed Celebrimbor the magic/runes/incantation to use when creating the rings and this is what left them open to his master spell over them all. There is a profound difference there.
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 5, 2022 20:13:26 GMT
Okay, I have some thoughts about what could have been and I think the showrunners made a core misstep when they got it in their heads that Sauron’s identity should be a mystery: There’s an interview quote out there where the showrunners said that they decided to invent Halbrand and remove Annatar because they didn’t want book readers to be ahead of the characters… which is a baffling thing to say. When adapting a work, one expects them to be the same. Readers aren’t going to think something’s lesser just because they were spoiled by reading the source material. They also seemed to think Annatar as described in the source material was too obviously Sauron to take seriously. This made me realize that these show runners decided early on to use an overarching mystery to try and drive audience intrigue in the story. Given that these two are supposedly protege of “Mr. Mystery Box” himself, J.J. Abrams, this might be unsurprising. They thought the story would be boring if anyone knew the answer beforehand. With that in mind, I can sort of understand why they thought the story of Annatar might not fit that formula very well… but that’s because they’re applying the wrong formula, not that source material can’t be made into a good TV show. There’s a famous example given by Alfred Hitchcock about how the audience having knowledge the character’s don’t can be used to build tension in film: Three characters sit down in a restaurant. Three minutes into their conversion, a time bomb blows up the restaurant. This is surprising, but there isn’t any tension because the audience had no way of knowing that might happen. Instead, show the audience the time bomb under the table, then have the characters sit down for their talk. Now the audience is very tense during this conversation because they know something is going to happen, but not when. Similarly, Annatar’s true nature should have been used as a source of tension, not a mystery. We should have seen him help the elves against (staged) orc incursions and ingratiate himself to them while the audience knows who he truly is. Seeing him scheme and not knowing exactly what he’s up to (save the overall goal of creating the rings) could have been used to create tension amongst the elves. If they must include an Istari, perhaps Sauron might have attempted to frame them (ragged and dirty compared to his beautiful Annatar form) as a suspicious enemy. Perhaps he could have played Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel against one another. It might turn into more of a drama than an epic, but so what? There’s clearly an appetite for that. A plot where Galadriel realizes who he is but attempts to push him toward redemption instead of revealing him could also work in this setting. For one it would allow for a much more in character Galadriel (demonstrating insight and compassion) and explore what Tolkien once wrote about the possibility of Sauron’s redemption. There was a point, Tolkien wrote, after the defeat of Morgoth when Sauron might have turned away from darkness. That would require he possessed the humility and bravery to submit himself to judgement before the Valar. Lacking these qualities, he fled further down his master’s path. There are definitely elements of a good plot that could be built here, but it seems to me that the showrunners set their heart on keeping this mystery pretty much for its own sake. TLDR: The Rings of Power is yet another casualty of Mystery Box storytelling. Now that I think about, The Wheel of Time show had a similar problem of building a mystery plot where they probably shouldn’t have. For anyone who doesn't know the showrunners are protégés of JJ Abrams who is an infamous abuser of that type of writing. www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/Hitchcock's stance on building tension is also highlighted by HBO's audience's positive reaction to their almost faithful portrayal of Petyr Baelish's character and cemented him as an iconic villain. Following RoP's showrunner's logic they would have drastically altered or omitted the Red Wedding because they fear the book reading portion of their audience knows what will happen next. I have no problem with changes being made to the script of a tv/film adaption of a novel if the alterations were made due to technical limitations, are superior to or on par with the source material's narrative, but RoP's changes seemed vastly inferior to the source material's due to it's weak writing quality despite them being given far more leeway to add in original content due to them adapting a book that's basically a timeline of events.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2022 9:39:36 GMT
I have no problem with changes being made to the script of a tv/film adaption of a novel if the alterations were made due to technical limitations, are superior to or on par with the source material's narrative, but RoP's changes seemed vastly inferior to the source material's due to it's weak writing quality despite them being given far more leeway to add in original content due to them adapting a book that's basically a timeline of events. What I find comical is their latest justification for the changes to Mithril and Sauron being Halbrand instead of Anatar. Apparently, they think Tolkien's idea that the elves would trust Anatar is not plausible, ignoring the fact that it was only Celembrimbor who was really taken in by him and he alone was responsible for creating the rings. So far as I can tell, I don't think either Gil-Galad or Galadriel was aware of what Celebrimbor was up to with Anatar until after the event. Celebrimbor accepted Anatar's help and advice because he claimed to have come as an emissary of the Valar. Given that Sauron was a Maiar and had been a chief aid to Aule, he would be able to give such answers to Celebrimbor that demonstrated he had come from Valinor. Celebrimbor would expect to be confronted by a spiritual being with a level of knowledge superior to his own, so why would he be suspicious? The rings of power in Tolkien enhance the natural abilities of the individuals wielding them according to the purpose for which they desire greater power. If they wish for dominance over others, it will give them this. They also prolong the life of a mortal using them. This was not the intention when creating the elven rings, which is why they act differently. They do not prolong life because the elves were already immortal. The elven rings were created last because Celebrimbor was perfecting his skill with the earlier rings under the instruction of Anatar. So, I find it laughable that they think it more plausible that Celebrimbor, an elven master of crafting, with many hundreds of years spent perfecting his skills, would take advice from a low man (not even an Edain) Galadriel met on a raft and, if he accepted that this low man did have greater knowledge than him, would not think it odd that this was the case. Of course, Celebrimbor in RoP does not appear to be a master of his craft and we have seen him make nothing other than the three rings. Also, he confirmed that mithril is special, although we still don't know how he thought that one nugget was going to save the entire elven race, when originally they wanted a whole mountain of the stuff. It is hard to see why Celebrimbor wishes to create further rings unless it is the case that the rings only operate over a limited range. Besides, they have used up all the mithril now (I assume). It is all most peculiar and nonsensical, yet the showrunners think their version makes more sense than Tolkien's! These guys are delusional.
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 6, 2022 15:51:07 GMT
I have no problem with changes being made to the script of a tv/film adaption of a novel if the alterations were made due to technical limitations, are superior to or on par with the source material's narrative, but RoP's changes seemed vastly inferior to the source material's due to it's weak writing quality despite them being given far more leeway to add in original content due to them adapting a book that's basically a timeline of events. What I find comical is their latest justification for the changes to Mithril and Sauron being Halbrand instead of Anatar. Apparently, they think Tolkien's idea that the elves would trust Anatar is not plausible, ignoring the fact that it was only Celembrimbor who was really taken in by him and he alone was responsible for creating the rings. So far as I can tell, I don't think either Gil-Galad or Galadriel was aware of what Celebrimbor was up to with Anatar until after the event. Celebrimbor accepted Anatar's help and advice because he claimed to have come as an emissary of the Valar. Given that Sauron was a Maiar and had been a chief aid to Aule, he would be able to give such answers to Celebrimbor that demonstrated he had come from Valinor. Celebrimbor would expect to be confronted by a spiritual being with a level of knowledge superior to his own, so why would he be suspicious? The rings of power in Tolkien enhance the natural abilities of the individuals wielding them according to the purpose for which they desire greater power. If they wish for dominance over others, it will give them this. They also prolong the life of a mortal using them. This was not the intention when creating the elven rings, which is why they act differently. They do not prolong life because the elves were already immortal. The elven rings were created last because Celebrimbor was perfecting his skill with the earlier rings under the instruction of Anatar. So, I find it laughable that they think it more plausible that Celebrimbor, an elven master of crafting, with many hundreds of years spent perfecting his skills, would take advice from a low man (not even an Edain) Galadriel met on a raft and, if he accepted that this low man did have greater knowledge than him, would not think it odd that this was the case. Of course, Celebrimbor in RoP does not appear to be a master of his craft and we have seen him make nothing other than the three rings. Also, he confirmed that mithril is special, although we still don't know how he thought that one nugget was going to save the entire elven race, when originally they wanted a whole mountain of the stuff. It is hard to see why Celebrimbor wishes to create further rings unless it is the case that the rings only operate over a limited range. Besides, they have used up all the mithril now (I assume). It is all most peculiar and nonsensical, yet the showrunners think their version makes more sense than Tolkien's! These guys are delusional. Exactly, Halbrand's even more suspicious than Annatar due to there being no excuse for him being more knowledgeable at metal crafting than the elves' second greatest smith. Mind you Celebrimbor should have over one thousand years worth of experience in his craft, but somehow he needed Halbrand to explain the concept of alloy. Amazon's Elves Dying plot is bizarre because it ignores the sun and moon also being created from remnants of the two trees which makes their silmaril infused mithril subplot redundant. Their script also leads me to believe the writers didn't understand that Fading was a natural inescapable process in the elven life cycle that is incomparable to death for mortals despite Elrond and Gil Galad treating it like so. Don't get me started on Arondir's unit not spotting any signs of Adar's orcs despite them being experienced rangers whose super eyesight allows them to see an object 15 miles away, them not knowing their tower was built on top of a dam despite the cliff face being an artificial construction, Adar's slave crew digging up miles of trenches in a month with no industrial equipment, the Numenorean's 3 ships hammerspacing hundreds of troops, horses, equipment and supplies despite each ship looking like they can barely carry 40 people each, and everyone surviving a pyroclastic flow while not being buried in 5 meters of super heated ash whose temperature ranges from 200°C and 700°C (390-1300°F).
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2022 18:22:14 GMT
Don't get me started on Arondir's unit not spotting any signs of Adar's orcs despite them being experienced rangers whose super eyesight allows them to see an object 15 miles away, I have a feeling that the showrunners have quietly ignored that aspect of elves. You have to admit their elves are not really that different to the humans, apart from the ears. There is another question I would love to put to them and that concerns Galadriel. Sauron suggests that she will "bind him to the light" or something like that. Was he serious or just trying to flatter her? I honestly do not see how anyone could think that RoP Galadriel is the "Lady of Light", but Halbrand in particular has witnessed a lot of her behaviour and sentiments, including her confrontation with Adar, so he should be under no illusions. I'd also like to know why precisely anyone would entrust her with a ring either. In RoP society she is merely the Commander of the Northern Armies and subservient to Gil'galad, so what qualifies her to hold a ring if they are intended to save the entire elven race from fading away? Even if they are intended to work as Tolkien's rings did, to preserve and heal, that does somewhat depend on the attitude of the person wielding them. Up to now she has been all about dominating others and manipulating them to do what she wants, destroying anyone that does not conform to her ideals, not protecting and preserving them. Mind you, none of the main elven characters have demonstrated the greatness of spirit associated with them in Tolkien's work, so from that point of view I suppose Galadriel might as well have a ring as not. Further thought, if they waggle a ring in the vicinity of Adar, would that "heal" him?
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 7, 2022 2:51:36 GMT
Don't get me started on Arondir's unit not spotting any signs of Adar's orcs despite them being experienced rangers whose super eyesight allows them to see an object 15 miles away, I have a feeling that the showrunners have quietly ignored that aspect of elves. You have to admit their elves are not really that different to the humans, apart from the ears. There is another question I would love to put to them and that concerns Galadriel. Sauron suggests that she will "bind him to the light" or something like that. Was he serious or just trying to flatter her? I honestly do not see how anyone could think that RoP Galadriel is the "Lady of Light", but Halbrand in particular has witnessed a lot of her behaviour and sentiments, including her confrontation with Adar, so he should be under no illusions. I'd also like to know why precisely anyone would entrust her with a ring either. In RoP society she is merely the Commander of the Northern Armies and subservient to Gil'galad, so what qualifies her to hold a ring if they are intended to save the entire elven race from fading away? Even if they are intended to work as Tolkien's rings did, to preserve and heal, that does somewhat depend on the attitude of the person wielding them. Up to now she has been all about dominating others and manipulating them to do what she wants, destroying anyone that does not conform to her ideals, not protecting and preserving them. Mind you, none of the main elven characters have demonstrated the greatness of spirit associated with them in Tolkien's work, so from that point of view I suppose Galadriel might as well have a ring as not. Further thought, if they waggle a ring in the vicinity of Adar, would that "heal" him? The crazy part about RoP's inconsistencies is that in the EP that featured Elrond investigating Durin IV's secret mining operation he used his elven eyesight to lipread Durin IV's secret conversation with his father from a far distance away across a barely lit chasm. Good catch about Amazon's Galadriel being given Nenya despite her behavior being comparable to the easily corruptible human kings who later became the ring wraiths. The writers abandoned the character traits Tolkien's Galadriel was famously known to possess in favor of turning her into Feanor 0.5, warrior princess edition, and someone like him is the last person you would want to hold a power ring. I
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 7, 2022 8:45:50 GMT
The writers abandoned the character traits Tolkien's Galadriel was famously known to possess in favor of turning her into Feanor 0.5, warrior princess edition, and someone like him is the last person you would want to hold a power ring. I was watching a video assessment of Galadriel today where the person was saying that the problem with Galadriel is not that they made her a warrior so much as what they did to her character. You might assume that when she first set out for Middle Earth that she was probably dressed for travel and had some sort of weapon to use as a last resort if her magic failed her. She was a leader and could appraise people and situations from the PoV of a commander when the situation demanded it but her main strength lay in her insight into character, which she always possessed, although it was probably enhanced by the ring. Another aspect of her spiritual power was that during the 2nd Age she was one of the few elves left in Middle Earth that had actually lived in Valinor. I think both Gil'galad and Celebrimbor were born in Middle Earth even if they were descended from elves that had existed in Valinor. When Frodo says how Glorfindel appeared differently to him when he was on the brink of the shadow world, Gandalf explains: " You saw him for a moment as he is on the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn," and " those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power". This would presumably apply to Galadriel and, of course, also apply to both Gandalf and Sauron, so I don't know what the latter was doing up north unless he was trying to give such power to his minions. It would seem that he achieved this with rings of the human kings but because they were not meant to dwell in both realms, in the end they became sucked into the wraith world. Anyway, it is clear that elves like Galadriel really didn't need to rely on ordinary weapons, as those elves born in Middle Earth did, because she had access to a far greater power by virtue of her origins. I recall that her brother Finrod was able to break the bonds on him and defeat a werewolf with his bare hands, even if he received wounds in the process that cost him his life. He was also able to weave illusion magic that allowed him to disguise his entire company as a band of orcs. I suppose the showrunners would argue it was her magic that allowed her to defeat the troll the way she did but it wasn't obvious this was the case, hence people saying she was overpowered. I also think her magic would have allowed her to stun the troll or produce a blaze of light that would either blind it or petrify it, rather than simply jump like a flea after being catapulted into the air by a sword. The other strange part is the lack of magical weapons. The only virtue of Galadriel's dagger would seem to be that it was made from gold and silver from Valinor. In the books the weapons of the elves have properties not found in those of other races, apart from the Numenoreans who were taught much of their skill by the elves from the west. Elf weapons glow in the presence of orcs (her dagger didn't) and have particular effectiveness against the servants of Morgoth and later Sauron. This is why I say that they could have shown Celebrimbor's skill at crafting by initially showing him forging elven swords. Of course, the only person who is shown actually doing any forging of this sort is Halbrand.
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 7, 2022 18:25:21 GMT
The writers abandoned the character traits Tolkien's Galadriel was famously known to possess in favor of turning her into Feanor 0.5, warrior princess edition, and someone like him is the last person you would want to hold a power ring. I was watching a video assessment of Galadriel today where the person was saying that the problem with Galadriel is not that they made her a warrior so much as what they did to her character. You might assume that when she first set out for Middle Earth that she was probably dressed for travel and had some sort of weapon to use as a last resort if her magic failed her. She was a leader and could appraise people and situations from the PoV of a commander when the situation demanded it but her main strength lay in her insight into character, which she always possessed, although it was probably enhanced by the ring. Another aspect of her spiritual power was that during the 2nd Age she was one of the few elves left in Middle Earth that had actually lived in Valinor. I think both Gil'galad and Celebrimbor were born in Middle Earth even if they were descended from elves that had existed in Valinor. When Frodo says how Glorfindel appeared differently to him when he was on the brink of the shadow world, Gandalf explains: " You saw him for a moment as he is on the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn," and " those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power". This would presumably apply to Galadriel and, of course, also apply to both Gandalf and Sauron, so I don't know what the latter was doing up north unless he was trying to give such power to his minions. It would seem that he achieved this with rings of the human kings but because they were not meant to dwell in both realms, in the end they became sucked into the wraith world. Anyway, it is clear that elves like Galadriel really didn't need to rely on ordinary weapons, as those elves born in Middle Earth did, because she had access to a far greater power by virtue of her origins. I recall that her brother Finrod was able to break the bonds on him and defeat a werewolf with his bare hands, even if he received wounds in the process that cost him his life. He was also able to weave illusion magic that allowed him to disguise his entire company as a band of orcs. I suppose the showrunners would argue it was her magic that allowed her to defeat the troll the way she did but it wasn't obvious this was the case, hence people saying she was overpowered. I also think her magic would have allowed her to stun the troll or produce a blaze of light that would either blind it or petrify it, rather than simply jump like a flea after being catapulted into the air by a sword. The other strange part is the lack of magical weapons. The only virtue of Galadriel's dagger would seem to be that it was made from gold and silver from Valinor. In the books the weapons of the elves have properties not found in those of other races, apart from the Numenoreans who were taught much of their skill by the elves from the west. Elf weapons glow in the presence of orcs (her dagger didn't) and have particular effectiveness against the servants of Morgoth and later Sauron. This is why I say that they could have shown Celebrimbor's skill at crafting by initially showing him forging elven swords. Of course, the only person who is shown actually doing any forging of this sort is Halbrand. If Galadriel had killed a Balrog with ease and no magic then i could see her being overpowered, but when she killed the cave troll i thought her physical ability could be comparable to a competent Trees Age/First Age warrior. Besides the poor editing for the fight scene i was underwhelmed by the combat ability of her squad which made me question how Galadriel would have survived an encounter with Sauron if she had confronted him, and his platoon of orcs back then. The showrunners opting not to display Celebrimbor's legendary crafting skills was a missed opportunity like when they choose Elrond to be the one to establish a friendship with Durin IV even though there's hints in the Appendices that Celebrimbor had a friendship with Durin III.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 8, 2022 8:34:09 GMT
If Galadriel had killed a Balrog with ease and no magic then i could see her being overpowered, but when she killed the cave troll i thought her physical ability could be comparable to a competent Trees Age/First Age warrior. Besides the poor editing for the fight scene i was underwhelmed by the combat ability of her squad which made me question how Galadriel would have survived an encounter with Sauron if she had confronted him, and his platoon of orcs back then. It was the fact that Galadriel was so superior to the rest of her squad that made people say she seemed overpowered. Also, the fact that it took the entire Fellowship working together to bring down the Cave Troll in LotR but Galadriel was able to single-handedly defeat the Ice Troll after it had pummeled the rest of her team. As you say, the question that left in the mind was what exactly did she think they were going to do if they did catch up with Sauron? After all, he had killed her brother, who was shown to be a seasoned fighter. Was she so delusional that she thought she could take him on by herself? Now, of course, Galadriel was shown doing exactly that in the Hobbit movie but that was with her spiritual power, not physical, backed up by the other Council members. Clearly, Galadriel in RoP was no match for Sauron either physically or spiritually and it is open to speculation why he didn't simply kill her when he had the chance. Also, the idea that she was a First Age warrior was rather contradicted by how they depicted her at the conclusion of the War of Wrath. When piling up the helmets she was not dressed as a warrior who had survived the fighting but was still in her Valinor nightdress. This would suggest that she didn't take any part in the First Age conflicts and only became a warrior after her brother's death when she took on his cause. Now the writers maintain she had spent 1000 years searching for Sauron but apart from killing a few orcs, most of that would seem to have been spent in fruitless searching for her enemy. Once again it was a case of them telling but not showing us her skills as Commander of the Northern Army. When did she acquire that title and why? A small platoon of soldiers does not qualify as an army. If she had been shown directing them on the battlefield, even against the troll, as opposed to just ordering them about the rest of the time, this title might have been more convincing. Also, I found laughable the reverence that Arondir displayed when asked who she was. Clearly, he had never served under her. It also suggested that Middle Earth is a far smaller place. He was located in the south, so presumably there was a commander of the southern army, although we never see them. They were meant to have a base outside of Southlands/Mordor that he could have gone to for reinforcements (his local commander mentioned this). Or are we to believe that the nearest garrison outside of southlands/Mordor was Eregion? Maybe since that is where Galadriel took Halbrand for elven healing, so presumably there was nowhere nearer. Maybe the southern army was just that small squad Arondir was part of, just as the northern army was the small squad with Galadriel. As with the rest of the story, the sense of scale is distinctly lacking in their series. The reason we have such detailed maps of Middle Earth is because Tolkien drew them up himself so he could make sure his story made sense with respect to distance traveled and timescales involved. Nor does the world seem populated. The "kingdom" of the southlands is just a few small villages; elven garrisons have only a handful of soldiers; the army of Numenor is just 300 conscripts. We see CGI vistas of cities but never get the sense they are actually populated. The leader of the Harfoots sent the Stranger north to the Greenwood because he claimed he would find humans there but we never see those humans, nor the Silvan elves who have always occuped it and were much more widespread before the Necromancer occupied Dol Guldur. At this stage, before the rise of Mordor and the spread of Sauron's followers, there should have been more signs of different groups across Middle Earth, not less. Once again, I feel there was so much potential for world building there that was wasted.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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Iakus
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Nov 8, 2022 15:36:04 GMT
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