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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 4, 2018 7:09:08 GMT
How would that principle apply to the Chargers convo? PapaCharlie9 was using the remarks about the clueless option in a Dorian conversation to make a broader statement and used the Chargers bit as an example. A silent option doesn't apply to the Chargers conversation specifically, since you don't even have to take that path, as it's an investigative option. After Krem makes his remark about breast binding, you can choose to move on by taking "And your other men?" The conversation moves away from Krem and you never address the trans issue. This is how I usually approach it. However, you can still talk about the trans stuff with Krem in private if you have questions. His explanation about shaving with his dad seems more clear to me than anything said in the Chargers conversation. Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Or you can just have a third party ask as well. In other entertainment, there is often the person who is a substitute for the reader/viewer, who will ask the questions and have things explained to them, so the information gets out there in a natural manner. However neither of these will work in all instances. Let's just take the example from the dwarf noble origin. Before you head to the Proving, you can wander around the shops in the Diamond Quarter. There is one scene where you run across a couple of noble hunters. Gorim says who they are and you have the opportunity to ask about them (or you can not ask; it's only an option). In that case, I think having the player explain it would sound awkward. Having Gorim explain it without prompting can have the result of making the player feel like an idiot and also feel artificial. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all perfect solution to info dumps that satisfies the need for getting the information out there, clarity, good character writing, while also allowing for roleplay. It's best to take each case on its own and determine the best avenue to drop that information. I'll also add that these sorts of questions benefit a replay or multiple plays. While you might ask all the things in your very first play of DAO, because you're new to the DA universe, you don't have to ask them on subsequent plays and conversations can have a more natural flow without the requisite info dumps.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 4, 2018 8:54:57 GMT
A silent option doesn't apply to the Chargers conversation specifically, since you don't even have to take that path, as it's an investigative option. After Krem makes his remark about breast binding, you can choose to move on by taking "And your other men?" The conversation moves away from Krem and you never address the trans issue. This is how I usually approach it. However, you can still talk about the trans stuff with Krem in private if you have questions. His explanation about shaving with his dad seems more clear to me than anything said in the Chargers conversation. This is how I approached it. Call me stupid if you like but I genuinely had no idea that Krem was trans until that option came up during the conversation with the Chargers. To me it didn't seem appropriate to discuss it in front of everyone else and the way the question was framed seemed tactless so I just shrugged and moved on. Then the next time I spoke to Krem the option was again given to investigate so I decided to do so. No offence was given and I went away a bit wiser.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 12:20:41 GMT
I hope BW has the courage to make a gay guy in DA4 who isn't a perfect gorgeous cinnamonbun who becomes a gay platonic soulmate of the player, and just has to flirt with women and lead them on because he is so.. like he is. Please? Can we get a '' gay male Sera '' who is really divisive? That'd be nice. I find it probable. Hunter’s relationship in Swtor is along those lines, though he is transgender not a cis male, but overall, a large portion of romances for female PCs feature men who are divisive and dishonest with the protagonist and/or intend to betray her. So, I can see them intergrating this scenario in the future games.
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Post by vometia on Jan 4, 2018 12:26:17 GMT
This is how I approached it. Call me stupid if you like but I genuinely had no idea that Krem was trans until that option came up during the conversation with the Chargers. I had no idea either. I thought he was just some teenager... Edit: which is probably a good thing. Speaking personally, people seem to have no idea about me either. Which is kind of reassuring but possibly also the product of not having an autobiography nailed to my forehead.
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Post by rras1994 on Jan 4, 2018 13:15:25 GMT
I hope BW has the courage to make a gay guy in DA4 who isn't a perfect gorgeous cinnamonbun who becomes a gay platonic soulmate of the player, and just has to flirt with women and lead them on because he is so.. like he is. Please? Can we get a '' gay male Sera '' who is really divisive? That'd be nice. I find it probable. Hunter’s relationship in Swtor is along those lines, though he is transgender not a cis male, but overall, a large portion of romances for female PCs feature men who are divisive and dishonest with the protagonist and/or intend to betray her. So, I can see them intergrating this scenario in the future games. Going into spoiler terriotary (I'd consider editing your post as noones expecting spoilers for SWTOR in a dragon age thread - just hide it in spoiler tag) But I wouldn't consider Hunter transgender, just an agent - who's been trained since birth - willing to go to extreme lengths for spying purposes like changing their identiity completely - I think it's telling they decide to die by revealing who they really are at the end.
But I do agree that BioWare is willing to be more challenging with LIs for woman - but I actually like it cus there's so many great characters that we wouldn't get otherwise! It makes the story better in my opinion. I think they should add more divisive LIs to everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 13:48:28 GMT
I find it probable. Hunter’s relationship in Swtor is along those lines, though he is transgender not a cis male, but overall, a large portion of romances for female PCs feature men who are divisive and dishonest with the protagonist and/or intend to betray her. So, I can see them intergrating this scenario in the future games. Going into spoiler terriotary (I'd consider editing your post as noones expecting spoilers for SWTOR in a dragon age thread - just hide it in spoiler tag) But I wouldn't consider Hunter transgender, just an agent - who's been trained since birth - willing to go to extreme lengths for spying purposes like changing their identiity completely - I think it's telling they decide to die by revealing who they really are at the end.
But I do agree that BioWare is willing to be more challenging with LIs for woman - but I actually like it cus there's so many great characters that we wouldn't get otherwise! It makes the story better in my opinion. I think they should add more divisive LIs to everyone. I always felt Hunter was gender-fluid, as s/he is very comfortable functioning as either. As long as the options are different, it's good to have a variety in the plots/personalities like with Anders, Fenris and Sebastian or Zevran and Alistair, not like in DAI with Bull and Blackwall. At any rate, for the specific thing the poster above is looking for Hunter is the closest so far.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2018 16:22:29 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:30:01 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. The use of references was incredible in tyranny. I really appreciated it when they referred back to the conquest phase, and to get the additional telepathic dialogue or extra observations. It was stellar, and the conversations flowed far better for it. I hope they keep using that system in the PoE2.
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Post by Kymira on Jan 4, 2018 16:54:27 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. I love the system for this. I'm playing the poe2 beta and was glad to see the "hover over" dialogue has made it into the game.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 4, 2018 16:58:00 GMT
Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. The use of references was incredible in tyranny. I really appreciated it when they referred back to the conquest phase, and to get the additional telepathic dialogue or extra observations. It was stellar, and the conversations flowed far better for it. I hope they keep using that system in the PoE2. It looks like they will: www.bleedingcool.com/2017/01/31/inside-pillars-eternity-ii-deadfire-game-director-josh-sawyer/MR: So will that also work in some of the way the story unfolds, to allow players to jump in with Pillars II without having to go back and re-read the Pillars of Eternity Wikipedia summary?
JS: Yeah, the beginning of the game is going to be- it’s always a big focus for us. My philosophy on the beginning of the game is to always work on it toward the end of the game. So, when you develop the first area of the game first, you wind up remaking that area 3-5 times. That’s not an exaggeration. Because, as you go along you realize ‘ugh damnit, we didn’t talk about this’ or ‘aw crap, that’s not – that’s not even a thing anymore’ or like ‘uh- we got rid of that mechanic’ or ‘we added this mechanic.’ So we usually handle the beginning of the game later in development but its an ongoing thing where we talk about how are we going to set up new players so that we can catch them up to speed we can catch them up on all the crazy lore that went through Pillars I. Also, we don’t want to bore players who know every little bit and piece of the first game and want to just sort of skip over that stuff and get into the game. One thing that we’re doing that I really hope people appreciate and that I love from another recent game that Obsidian made which is called Tyranny. In Tyranny they introduced this feature which is this sort of lore highlight. So in dialogue sometimes people will mention a term and instead of explaining it in some sort of very verbose fashion, especially if its something that’s already been discussed before, you could just highlight it and you get a little pop-up that tells you exactly what that thing is. Whether its, you know, a little bit of background on the god, or a culture that you might only be a little familiar with, or in some cases, if something that’s happening in the world as a reaction to a choice that you made earlier, that highlight system allows the game to call it out without the player having to be sort of like stopped in the flow of the middle of their conversation. So if someone already knows what the Vailian Republics are and that sort of stuff, we don’t want to just regurgitate a whole bunch of text. But if someone goes ‘uh I think I know what that is’ they can just highlight that little bit of text and get a quick pop-up and then return to reading the dialogue.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 4, 2018 16:58:49 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. Yeah Tyranny was excellent with that, it seemed like such an intuitive thing to do that I was surprised it wasn't/isn't more common place.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 4, 2018 19:37:08 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. Sure it could. The hover option could also include the literal text of what your pc will say. I’d like to see hypertext used more in games for exactly these purposes.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 5, 2018 2:38:40 GMT
My first DAO play had no romance because I didn't know about them and didn't stumble into one. My current play is also sans romance of my own choosing. I don't feel there is any great loss. How is it possible that neither Leliana nor Alistair ninjamanced you??! I must know your secret!
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Post by fylimar on Jan 5, 2018 20:49:29 GMT
Hopefully more lesbian than previously! I mean, if straight dudes don't want Cass and Josie, I'm sure there are plenty of ladies who'll be happy to take them ... (I mean, Josephine is already bi, but still.) I'm not straight but whenever I role a hetero-Inq I almost always wind up romancing Cassandra. I've found her personality, quirks included and the whole elaborate process of wooing her to be yours to be quite fun and well detailed. For me she's quite a refreshing change from the typical no-personality Stepford wife Barbie doll types that you often see reflected in the modding community and other games where all you have to do is a simple fetch quest or just bombard them with presents in order to be able to "hit that". Dorian is usually my go-to romance option, though I just wish they had spent more time caring about his moral stance rather than making his sexuality the gravitas of his character (I imagine lots of pats on the back were had by all that day " see gaiz we're being inclusive!!1!"). Tbh I think, there is a lot going on with Dorian. His fight against his fellow Tevinter. Him loosing Felix, from his conversations someone who was as close as a brother to him. His estrangement from his family because of what his father did, which of course has to do with his sexual orientation, but I guess not having the backup and understanding from your family is hard, no matter the circumstances. And lastly loosing his mentor and friend Alexius to exactly those people, he despises. Of all the companions, I wouldn't wish to swap life with Dorian, the problems of the others seem small and petty compared (not that they are, but it feels that way, when you consider all the stuff, Dorian has to deal with). And still he manages to be so cheerful all the time - I think that's, what I like the most about him. And I finally made a nice guy for our favorite Tevinter. Don't know how far I will come, since I normally play women, but if anyone can motivate me to play a guy, it's Dorian :-)
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jan 5, 2018 20:58:54 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them. Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. Yet another reason not to voice the dialogue. As if we needed another. My preference, however, would be to provide these details to the player in advance so the player can decide what's important. I would like the player's first reaction to dialogue to be in-character. Obsidian has a long history of preventing that, though.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 5, 2018 21:14:09 GMT
Tyranny had an awesome system for stuff that might require greater context for the player but the in-game character should know already. The dialogue would bring up terms in color, and hovering the cursor over it would bring up a glossary entry on why it's important. Wouldn't work for DA though since it's entirely voiced. Yet another reason not to voice the dialogue. As if we needed another. My preference, however, would be to provide these details to the player in advance so the player can decide what's important.I would like the player's first reaction to dialogue to be in-character. Obsidian has a long history of preventing that, though. Well, yeah. But it's not always easy to keep track of tons of information, especially if you don't know what's important and what's not (plus your own decisions could have altered what information is available). What Obsidian did was provide the player with prompts that you, as the character, should be aware of this detail.
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Post by warden on Jan 6, 2018 1:03:49 GMT
I hope BW has the courage to make a gay guy in DA4 who isn't a perfect gorgeous cinnamonbun who becomes a gay platonic soulmate of the player, and just has to flirt with women and lead them on because he is so.. like he is. Please? Can we get a '' gay male Sera '' who is really divisive? That'd be nice. BioWare and courage doesn't work well in the same lines, because BioWare doesn't know what courage or balls is, when people (doesn't matter what people) shout, scream, cry, and causes controversy, BioWare usually just poops his pants.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 2:51:15 GMT
Yet another reason not to voice the dialogue. As if we needed another. My preference, however, would be to provide these details to the player in advance so the player can decide what's important.I would like the player's first reaction to dialogue to be in-character. Obsidian has a long history of preventing that, though. Well, yeah. But it's not always easy to keep track of tons of information, especially if you don't know what's important and what's not (plus your own decisions could have altered what information is available). What Obsidian did was provide the player with prompts that you, as the character, should be aware of this detail. +1 this. A lot of the prompts refer to Conquest details, for example, which you could hardly be expected to memorize, as there is a lot of places and a lot of choices the player makes.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 6, 2018 6:06:20 GMT
"blood magic is bad now because they used it to try and change my sexuality" He thought blood magic was bad before that. He outright says his father taught him to hate blood magic as "the resort of the weak mind." You can also ask him about it in investigative dialogues. It's about power and the temptation to misuse it. If you have a willing participant, what's the harm? But what if you need more power? "And you always need more." This view lines up perfectly with David Gaider's views on blood magic, which have nothing at all to do with changing someone's sexuality.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2018 11:07:32 GMT
He thought blood magic was bad before that. He outright says his father taught him to hate blood magic as "the resort of the weak mind." You can also ask him about it in investigative dialogues. It's about power and the temptation to misuse it. If you have a willing participant, what's the harm? But what if you need more power? "And you always need more." This view lines up perfectly with David Gaider's views on blood magic, which have nothing at all to do with changing someone's sexuality. Someone who believes that slavery is a beneficial courtesy to mankind, probably wouldn't have any moral scruples about blood magic until its been used on him. I mean come on, the guy justifies slavery as a good thing but scoffs at blood magic (this being AFTER said event occurred) as being bad? So yea my inference from him was suddenly the norm in Tevinter is bad now because someone used it against me, it only furthers to fuel the idea that his wanting to change Tevinter is because of his wounded privilege, and not borne out of empathy for the suffering masses. It's a very common human trait. He always lived in a slave-holder society. The slaves are natural to him, just as the furniture, the air... This doesn't make the slavery acceptable but shows the simple human nature. Some people able to see the others problems, but the majority aren't able to it. He never was forced to deal with this problem, so: he didn't think about it, just as the majority of the people. And when the Inquisitor questions him, he tries to defend his homeland. I suppose. He's not a that bad person, but he's far to be perfect. In fact, he's very real.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 15:39:20 GMT
Everything about Dorian’s relationship to Tevinter is realistic. Basically, it is the effect that people can easily feel for themselves: we will readily bash our own land, customs, politicians, etc, among ourselves but when a foreigner tries to do so, particularly if you are an immigrant in a land that is hostile to yours and considers everyth8ng and anything about it evil, you would feel the need to justify, defend, and g “you guys are no better”. It’s something that it is extremely natural and Dorian is an immigrant captured to a T. Or at least that is what I see when I look at him.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2018 16:27:38 GMT
"blood magic is bad now because they used it to try and change my sexuality" He thought blood magic was bad before that. He outright says his father taught him to hate blood magic as "the resort of the weak mind." You can also ask him about it in investigative dialogues. It's about power and the temptation to misuse it. If you have a willing participant, what's the harm? But what if you need more power? "And you always need more." This view lines up perfectly with David Gaider's views on blood magic, which have nothing at all to do with changing someone's sexuality. Yes. Only the question is: he would be able to conclude that if he, personally, not involved. He even not realized the slavery problems, but condemns the southern Circle-system. UPDATE: Don't get me wrong, I like, how he uses his personal experiences to make Tevinter a better place. It's a good point, and this is what I really like about his character. Not everyone able to do it.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,073
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 10, 2018 23:42:45 GMT
He thought blood magic was bad before that. He outright says his father taught him to hate blood magic as "the resort of the weak mind." You can also ask him about it in investigative dialogues. It's about power and the temptation to misuse it. If you have a willing participant, what's the harm? But what if you need more power? "And you always need more." This view lines up perfectly with David Gaider's views on blood magic, which have nothing at all to do with changing someone's sexuality. Someone who believes that slavery is a beneficial courtesy to mankind, probably wouldn't have any moral scruples about blood magic until its been used on him. I mean come on, the guy justifies slavery as a good thing but scoffs at blood magic (this being AFTER said event occurred) as being bad? So yea my inference from him was suddenly the norm in Tevinter is bad now because someone used it against me, it only furthers to fuel the idea that his wanting to change Tevinter is because of his wounded privilege, and not borne out of empathy for the suffering masses. Lol. "I'm going to ignore the presented evidence that Dorian was RAISED to hate blood magic, because it conflicts with my pre-conceived notions". It's spelled out clearly when you meet his father. Dorian was taught from childhood that Blood Magic is wrong, but that slavery is fine. They're two separate moral issues that have little/nothing to do with each other (except that slaves are often killed to fuel blood magic). Saying that Dorian MUST be okay with blood magic because he's okay with slavery is like saying that vegetarians MUST also support gender equality, even though the two issues are entirely unrelated. It's perfectly possible to be progressive/good in one way, and oppressive/bad in another way.
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1407
0
Sept 2, 2016 19:28:30 GMT
4,343
shechinah
Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
2,584
Sept 2, 2016 18:49:21 GMT
September 2016
shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Jan 13, 2018 0:10:50 GMT
It's perfectly possible to be progressive/good in one way, and oppressive/bad in another way. True dat. I've seen it so many times before.
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M'lady of Fine Arts
434
0
4,610
Lady Artifice
1,835
August 2016
ladyartifice
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jan 13, 2018 3:04:52 GMT
I can't believe this thread is 26 pages long and I haven't even noticed it before now or even know that Not!Brevnau was back.
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