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Post by shechinah on Jan 3, 2018 22:57:54 GMT
How has this thread not been closed? The title alone is offensive and the content within these 23 24 pages isn't much better. I like to think that the mods are as capable of morbid curiosity as we are and sometimes like to sit back and watch threads like this unfold just to see the ways it goes. I mean, c'mon, with a title like that, we knew what this was going to be about. Besides, these kinds of threads are basically like the forum's free for all. I kind of enjoy those.
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Post by sageoflife on Jan 3, 2018 23:03:20 GMT
Because playing it does not appeal to me any more. Why not? Probably because she didn't get the validation she wanted.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:04:58 GMT
Because playing it does not appeal to me any more. Why not? I’d rather play the other games I own. I played DA3 twice. It’s sufficient.
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Post by Gilli on Jan 3, 2018 23:16:21 GMT
Only one of them allows me to fire the game and just create a protagonist I feel like playing & do not get a "shouldda played an elf" or "shouldda played a male" messages. Anders does not jump away from Hawke because she does not meet his exacting height standard & he doesn't care what's between your legs, only what's in your heart. To be fair, I think such options actually encourage replayability, and to try new things. I doubt I would have created a female inquisitor without the Solas romance, for example. I think such conditional flags (and not just in romances) enhances role-playing. But, different strokes, I guess. I agree. Before I played DAI the first time, I looked at the LIs and who they're interested in and then I made a list with who I would romance them. This list is/was not set in stone*, but it kinda helped me think about with who I want to romance who. *my Adaar was supposed to romance Bull, she didn't like him and fell in love with Josie instead. My male!Lavellan was supposed to romance Dorian, then he fell in love with Cassandra, because she complimented him.
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 3, 2018 23:20:17 GMT
I was drawn into the debate because of the astounding amount of bullying projected at Jade Dreamer because of her decision concerning a video game. I don't abide that kind of behaviour and especially over something so insignificant. I don't abide the "do it our way and we'll stop" kind of thing. It's ugly and pathetic. It's easy to lose perspective on the internet. People need more tolerance. It wasn't bullying so much as exasperation. It was the fact that - after asking why people found the mod obnoxious - she would not accept the explanations and was continuously not just defending her stance, but telling those who didn't agree that we were wrong to disagree. No one said "do it our way". It was said repeatedly to go play the game with your mod if that's what makes you happy. She kept coming back with longer and increasingly less cogent arguments about WHY it was perfectly within reason even within the canon framework of the game (and despite Gaider's own assertions as to why the character's sexuality was integral to his story) to make the character bi and furthermore that everyone should agree, to the point where, yes, some people lost patience with it. I suppose the onus is on all of us who made the mistake of reacting, but is it still bullying when the so-called victim keeps coming back to poke the anthill again, knowing full and well what's going to happen?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:25:03 GMT
I am not a victim. I responded to the questions when they were asked directly. If people chose to feel hurt it was not my intention. I have tried to avoid anything but neutral language . I answered every question honestly and earnestly. I asked for clarification when I did not get why or what was said.
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Post by river82 on Jan 3, 2018 23:37:35 GMT
It wasn't bullying so much as exasperation. It was the fact that - after asking why people found the mod obnoxious - she would not accept the explanations and was continuously not just defending her stance, but telling those who didn't agree that we were wrong to disagree. No one said "do it our way". It was said repeatedly to go play the game with your mod if that's what makes you happy. She kept coming back with longer and increasingly less cogent arguments about WHY it was perfectly within reason even within the canon framework of the game (and despite Gaider's own assertions as to why the character's sexuality was integral to his story) to make the character bi and furthermore that everyone should agree, to the point where, yes, some people lost patience with it. I suppose the onus is on all of us who made the mistake of reacting, but is it still bullying when the so-called victim keeps coming back to poke the anthill again, knowing full and well what's going to happen? I like forums precisely because they excel at discussions. And robust discussions especially. The sort of discussions you can't get on an IM service, or twitter, or facebook. And the really good thing about discussion is an exchange of viewpoints, not the conversion of viewpoints. She doesn't have to accept and incorporate your explanations into her worldview, I don't accept your explanations (I find them ridiculously inconsistent) but that's okay because it makes people individuals. Discussion forums also host discussions not all people are happy about, because people like to talk about things and others may not like the things discussed. Accepted behaviour is if you find something you don't like you ignore it and continue on, not dictate what people can and cannot talk about. Then the character attacks started - using the mod is "indefensible", you're invalidating the views of the writer, gay people don't need to change how dare you, I'd divorce my friends if they tried to change me, shame, shame, shame. Ignoring the fact that half the people were confusing real life with video games it was moderately appalling behaviour. I'm not saying you engage in bullying, I'm saying the people on this forum sometimes act like a clique and sometimes descend into clique like behaviour. Certain people got their feelings hurt and lashed out, and other people followed because that's what cliques do. It's why I despise echo chambers and clique like forums, all superficial niceness and respect but only if you agree with them and their worldview, dare to not agree and suddenly that superficial niceness disappears. Fake. Phony. Disgusting. And you're treading pretty close to the line of victim blaming, TBH. Gaider's remarks are pretty inconsequential to what fans do with characters like Rowling's remarks were pretty inconsequential to what fans did with her characters. Because writers lose control of their creations once they hit the public domain. Gaider knows who he wrote the story for though, that's all that should matter.
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 3, 2018 23:37:53 GMT
I am not a victim. I responded to the questions when they were asked directly. If people chose to feel hurt it was not my intention. I have tried to avoid anything but neutral language . I answered every question honestly and earnestly. I asked for clarification when I did not get why or what was said. To be fair, no, you never claimed to be a victim, nor did you descend into name calling, and that's appreciated.
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 4, 2018 0:00:14 GMT
I like forums precisely because they excel at discussions. And robust discussions especially. The sort of discussions you can't get on an IM service, or twitter, or facebook. And the really good thing about discussion is an exchange of viewpoints, not the conversion of viewpoints. She doesn't have to accept and incorporate your explanations into her worldview, I don't accept your explanations (I find them ridiculously inconsistent) but that's okay because it makes people individuals. Discussion forums also host discussions not all people are happy about, because people like to talk about things and others may not like the things discussed. Accepted behaviour is if you find something you don't like you ignore it and continue on, not dictate what people can and cannot talk about. Then the character attacks started - using the mod is "indefensible", you're invalidating the views of the writer, gay people don't need to change how dare you, I'd divorce my friends if they tried to change me, shame, shame, shame. Ignoring the fact that half the people were confusing real life with video games it was moderately appalling behaviour. I'm not saying you engage in bullying, I'm saying the people on this forum sometimes act like a clique and sometimes descend into clique like behaviour. Certain people got their feelings hurt and lashed out, and other people followed because that's what cliques do. It's why I despise echo chambers and clique like forums, all superficial niceness and respect but only if you agree with them and their worldview, dare to not agree and suddenly that superficial niceness disappears. Fake. Phony. Disgusting. And you're treading pretty close to the line of victim blaming, TBH. Gaider's remarks are pretty inconsequential to what fans do with characters like Rowling's remarks were pretty inconsequential to what fans did with her characters. Because writers lose control of their creations once they hit the public domain. Gaider knows who he wrote the story for though, that's all that should matter. I never said nor expected her to incorporate my opinion into her worldview. I simply attempted to answer why people found that mod disagreeable. I'm not sure in what way my explanations are "ridiculously inconsistent", but so be it. I shan't be changing your worldview either. Yes, people get excited, and even engage in hyperbole. But all in all, no one got too heavily into the name-calling and other nonsense; there was simply frustration on both sides. Yeah, I know concerning Gaider. If you read in what context I used his remarks, perhaps it would make some degree of sense. I also don't know that you're correct in thinking people were confusing real life with games, but this whole thing's gotten silly. Hope everyone enjoys their games however they like. I've got fanfiction to go write.
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Post by luzarius on Jan 4, 2018 0:08:37 GMT
How has this thread not been closed? The title alone is offensive and the content within these 23 24 pages isn't much better. This thread has brought me both joy & knowledge. Why would you want such a glorious thread to be closed? Let go of your authoritarian mindset and embrace the free speech my friend. Agreed. If I could just get Cassandra's face into 3d studio max I could make her look feminine and I would've been able to play the damn game. Modding is so important for an RPG. Even the Witcher 3 has a simple EXE you can download that extracts the games assets so you can mod them and then repackage the files. All Bioware had to do was release one exe that lets us decompress the assets then repack them.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2018 0:14:01 GMT
I never said nor expected her to incorporate my opinion into her worldview. I simply attempted to answer why people found that mod disagreeable. I'm not sure in what way my explanations are "ridiculously inconsistent", but so be it. I shan't be changing your worldview either. What does finding a mod "disagreeable" mean in this context?
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 4, 2018 0:19:29 GMT
I simply attempted to answer why people found that mod disagreeable. What does finding a mod "disagreeable" mean in this context? Short version - modding Dorian to like women in a romantic sense. Long version - there are many pages previous to this containing the whole sordid mess.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 4, 2018 3:15:37 GMT
I just figure a decade or two in the Circle, completely cut off from society, has left the Inquisitor a bit clueless at times. I took it with my Inquisitor that he's not that clued out (he also had a few years on his own between the Circle and the conclave, but that's another story) — they've already been flirting enough that he's rather mad about Dorian, but Dorian still hasn't come right out and said he's gay. Therefore he's being sardonic as in you pick now to finally admit it?Heh I just love seeing people's headcanons for choices like this. My (warrior) Trev has been flirting with him up to that point and the way I play it seems like they're both aware that each of them like men, so it just doesn't make sense for me to ask him to clarify. To me, it's not so much that Dorian is "coming out" in the scene, but just being explicit about the conflict with his father: "I prefer the company of men. My father doesn't approve." I skip all of the options relating to that and just go right to "Why is it an issue?" My guy is gay, and his parents know he's gay and are fine with it, so it's a bit difficult for him to grasp. It also flows nicely with his outraged tone when he says, "That's what this is all about? Who you sleep with." It's a shame that so many dialogue options are locked behind asking Dorian to clarify, so I never see them, but my path fits really well with my headcanon and Inquisitor's personality, so it works out. I wish I could headcanon those, "Ima clueless," dialogue options away for the Inquisitor, but I'm too cynical, I suppose. The Inquisitor to Krem, "Why pass as a man/Are you a woman," dialogue is what convinced me that the intention of the writers was to give clueless players a natural option to choose. In their thinking (so I suppose), the player may be sheltered/ignorant/not paying attention and wants to ask "Ima clueless" type questions. If all the options that were available naturally assumed the player understood who they are talking to, with all of the context, particularly in the case of persecuted groups (IRL, not in game society), the whole conversation would go over their heads and result in confusion. Are clueless options better or worse than honestly negative and prejudiced ones? I'm undecided. The world certainly doesn't need more prejudice in media, and the value of such agency is questionable in the grand scheme of things, but at the very least, clueless players would be put on notice that their character is confronted with a sensitive dialogue situation, tinged with prejudice, as opposed to enabling self-insert of clueless people.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2018 3:49:40 GMT
What does finding a mod "disagreeable" mean in this context? Short version - modding Dorian to like women in a romantic sense. Long version - there are many pages previous to this containing the whole sordid mess. But what did you mean by "disagreeable," exactly. something you wouldn't download yourself?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2018 3:54:03 GMT
[ You are not changing conditions you are changing who the character is at a basic level so you can romance him as a female which is against his character. You are failing to understand that point when posters are repeatedly telling you. And what if JD is rewriting the character? I agree that's what's going on, but what's the problem?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 4, 2018 4:02:43 GMT
PapaCharlie9 But players don't have to choose them if they don't want. I never take that dialogue path with Krem, just as I don't take that path with Dorian. Neither do I ask Dorian if he was involved with Felix, or ask Leliana if she was involved with Justinia. I typically have a respect for personal boundaries. In addition, the circumstances where some questions are available -- asking about Felix after Dorian has just learned of his death -- seem inappropriate, so I skip them. Because I don't take such options normally, I'm not even sure if I was aware that Krem was trans before coming to the forums. It's been over three years since my first play of DAI, so I honestly don't remember. When I first met Krem, I thought he was a warrior-woman in the same vein as Avaline, not a transman. I don't recall other dialogues or pronoun usage, or what I thought at the time. Since there are cis women among the Chargers, like Dalish, the instance of Bull calling them "my men" and so forth doesn't have significance. I think it IS good to have such options, not only for players who might in fact be clueless -- Krem's vague reference to breast binding can certainly go over the heads of players -- but to allow for those roleplay options. Now, I will say that there are limitations to roleplay options, and the devs have been clear in that they do not want to allow the PC to have certain bigoted options; that is their prerogative. But asking questions, or clueless options? Sure, why not? I look at it in the same vein as any other number of options available in the game since DAO. A dwarf noble should know what noble hunters are, yet the option is there to ask. A mage should know certain things about magic and demons, yet the options are there to ask. A human noble should know certain things about Andrastianism, whether they believe or not, yet the options are there to ask; they should know about Loghain, or that Cailan and Anora are childless, yet the options are there to ask. I have no problem whatsoever with those sort of questions in dialogue. Take them, or not, it's up to the player. But I don't have anything against their existence in the game.
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 4, 2018 4:13:02 GMT
Short version - modding Dorian to like women in a romantic sense. Long version - there are many pages previous to this containing the whole sordid mess. But what did you mean by "disagreeable," exactly. something you wouldn't download yourself? I think you're getting a little too worried about semantics here. Disagreeable as in unpleasant. Disagreeable as in there's something about it I do not agree with. Disagreeable as in there's something rather ugly about it. Disagreeable as in I, personally wouldn't download it. Disagreeable as when you walk into a room and wrinkle your nose because something smells a bit off. Take your pick. Not disagreeable as in no one should download it, because that's none of my business. For all I know, there are some people who would find the "no buttflap" mod I use disagreeable, so that's neither here nor there. I could have used a dozen other words that all meant roughly the same thing. There's something about the mod that many people don't like, that's all.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 4, 2018 4:18:33 GMT
PapaCharlie9 But players don't have to choose them if they don't want. I never take that dialogue path with Krem, just as I don't take that path with Dorian. Neither do I ask Dorian if he was involved with Felix, or ask Leliana if she was involved with Justinia. I typically have a respect for personal boundaries. In addition, the circumstances where some questions are available -- asking about Felix after Dorian has just learned of his death -- seem inappropriate, so I skip them. Because I don't take such options normally, I'm not even sure if I was aware that Krem was trans before coming to the forums. It's been over three years since my first play of DAI, so I honestly don't remember. When I first met Krem, I thought he was a warrior-woman in the same vein as Avaline, not a transman. I don't recall other dialogues or pronoun usage, or what I thought at the time. Since there are cis women among the Chargers, like Dalish, the instance of Bull calling them "my men" and so forth doesn't have significance. I think it IS good to have such options, not only for players who might in fact be clueless -- Krem's vague reference to breast binding can certainly go over the heads of players -- but to allow for those roleplay options. Now, I will say that there are limitations to roleplay options, and the devs have been clear in that they do not want to allow the PC to have certain bigoted options; that is their prerogative. But asking questions, or clueless options? Sure, why not? I look at it in the same vein as any other number of options available in the game since DAO. A dwarf noble should know what noble hunters are, yet the option is there to ask. A mage should know certain things about magic and demons, yet the options are there to ask. A human noble should know certain things about Andrastianism, whether they believe or not, yet the options are there to ask; they should know about Loghain, or that Cailan and Anora are childless, yet the options are there to ask. I have no problem whatsoever with those sort of questions in dialogue. Take them, or not, it's up to the player. But I don't have anything against their existence in the game. I completely get what you are saying. But, what if instead of an option that appears clueless, why not a "(remain silent)" option? That's what I tend to do when I'm unsure of the context. Better to be thought the fool, etc. Telltale games are great at providing that option at appropriate times, which I'll admit, is more about my personal taste and aesthetics than anything else. I guess my main complaint/question is about the choice from the writer's perspective. All things considered, does a clueless option really have a place? Aren't there better alternatives? Having a justification from a roleplaying standpoint isn't enough to convince me, since those options are legion. Basically, that argument can be made for any option, including the prejudiced ones.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2018 5:43:55 GMT
Weren't those investigate options and therefore skippable? Instead of remaining silent, you move on.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 4, 2018 5:54:14 GMT
Weren't those investigate options and therefore skippable? Yes. Basically, that argument can be made for any option, including the prejudiced ones. It doesn't matter what those arguments are, as Bioware doesn't want to include them, but they apparently see no issue with including those clueless options. To your question about remaining silent, silence can mean different things. It could mean that you have no opinion or don't care, it could mean that you are clueless and are choosing not to look the fool by asking a dumb question, it could mean that you're so angry at whatever the conversation is that you're choosing to say nothing in fury. A question is a question, and is literally what it says, even if a player's reason for choosing said option differs. I think there is a place for silence. I've seen a few of those in my current DAO play, particularly when it comes to remaining silent during times of prayer, which the player can take for whatever reason (while my character is Andrastian, I choose to play his faith as more personal than demonstrative). There is a place for both options.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2018 5:58:19 GMT
How would that principle apply to the Chargers convo?
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Post by Babar Guy on Jan 4, 2018 6:07:33 GMT
How the fuck can such a low effort bait thread that has been rehashed a million times STILL get 25 pages deep
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 4, 2018 6:39:15 GMT
How the fuck can such a low effort bait thread that has been rehashed a million times STILL get 25 pages deep Because it wandered away from the OP's mindlessly boring topic many pages ago.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 4, 2018 6:50:16 GMT
Know what would solve a lot of exposition based ignorance where you wanna fill in the player but the character should know about it? Having a character who doesn't know ask the question and then your character can explain it to them.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 4, 2018 7:00:05 GMT
I hope BW has the courage to make a gay guy in DA4 who isn't a perfect gorgeous cinnamonbun who becomes a gay platonic soulmate of the player, and just has to flirt with women and lead them on because he is so.. like he is. Please? Can we get a '' gay male Sera '' who is really divisive? That'd be nice.
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