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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 21:43:43 GMT
You can't kill him if you spring him from jail. You either make him a Grey Warden(which will result in his death in the Trespasser epilogue slides), make him indentured to the Inquisition(eventually leading to him being taken by the Wardens) or grant him a full pardon. The only way to give him the fate he deserves is to leave him to Orlais. According to you. No, according to the legal system. Mass murder is punishable by life in prison and/or death. He mass murdered innocent people, including children, so legally that is the only correct punishment among the options given.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 21:44:46 GMT
Blackwall is practically the God of Redemption in Inquisition, so... Also, Hanako Ikezawa, how does Rainier end up dying if he comes a Warden? I checked Dragon Age wiki and it says he wanders around killing darkspawn and giving gifts to children (Awww!) if he gets turned into a Grey Warden. It also states that he disappears if the Inquisitor romanced him. Pretty sure you can't confirm his death from just that. If I recall correctly, one of the devs said so on Twitter when asked about it.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2018 21:45:56 GMT
No, according to the legal system. Mass murder is punishable by life in prison and/or death. He mass murdered innocent people, including children, so legally that is the only correct punishment among the options given. Justice there? Or Vengeance?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 21:48:34 GMT
No, according to the legal system. Mass murder is punishable by life in prison and/or death. He mass murdered innocent people, including children, so legally that is the only correct punishment among the options given. Justice there? Or Vengeance? Justice. Vengeance implies that I was personally wronged by his actions thus am seeking revenge, when that is not the case. Obeying the law is not vengeance, since acting on vengeance is also against the law.
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N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 20, 2018 21:49:20 GMT
The Game is the law of Orlais, and he was (unknowingly) playing it.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 20, 2018 21:50:27 GMT
Blackwall is practically the God of Redemption in Inquisition, so... Also, Hanako Ikezawa, how does Rainier end up dying if he comes a Warden? I checked Dragon Age wiki and it says he wanders around killing darkspawn and giving gifts to children (Awww!) if he gets turned into a Grey Warden. It also states that he disappears if the Inquisitor romanced him. Pretty sure you can't confirm his death from just that. In the romance version of Warden Blackwall, I'd say it is heavily implied that he dies. He receives a summon from the Grey Wardens and after delaying it for about a year, he decides to answer the call but promises the Inquisitor that he will return. His promise, however, remains unfulfilled: after several years, the Inquisitor receives only a Warden Constable badge and a griffon feather.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 21:51:25 GMT
No, according to the legal system. Mass murder is punishable by life in prison and/or death. He mass murdered innocent people, including children, so legally that is the only correct punishment among the options given. Not every legal system is the same. The one from my country, for instance, doesn't even have the death penalty. Besides, wouldn't it be better for society if this truly repentant criminal spent the rest of his life fighting hordes of evil monsters?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2018 21:54:22 GMT
Justice there? Or Vengeance? Justice. Vengeance implies that I was personally wronged by his actions thus am seeking revenge, when that is not the case. Obeying the law is not vengeance, since acting on vengeance is also against the law. The law is not for vengeance. He's already harmless, and ready to redeem himself. The Mercy, you know, exists. Blackwall can serve the good if the Inquisitor pardons him, or send him to the Grey Wardens. In the cell, he isn't able to serve anything.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 21:57:46 GMT
Justice. Vengeance implies that I was personally wronged by his actions thus am seeking revenge, when that is not the case. Obeying the law is not vengeance, since acting on vengeance is also against the law. The law is not for vengeance. He's already harmless, and ready to redeem himself. The Mercy, you know, exists. Blackwall can serve the good if the Inquisitor pardons him, or send him to the Grey Wardens. In the cell, he isn't able to serve anything. He is not harmless. He is a trained soldier, so even without weapons he can harm people. He has not shown that he was genuinely trying to redeem himself. Heck even he says he can't be. In his cell and on the rope, he still serves: as an example and a warning to others. But I know debating with you about this is pointless, since you straight up support terrorists attacking civilians.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 22:01:36 GMT
Honestly, the difference between vengeance and justice are irrelevant in my mind when it comes to Blackwall's situation. Smart and practical vs petty and stupid are what matters here. Blackwall is more useful alive fighting the greatest evils on Thedas than dead. I know that's pretty hypocritical coming from me given that I let Sera beat Lord Harmond to death almost every time, but Blackwall is at least reliably reformed and will be basically end up executed by the Blight or darkspawn eventually anyway.
Making him a Warden seems to me to be a win, win.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2018 22:02:43 GMT
Blackwall is already irredeemably evil and killable though. I missed that option. Do you spring him from the Val Royeaux jail and then judge him for execution? I know you can exile him, but didn't know you can kill him. Pretty sure the only way to kill Blackwall is to leave him in jail.
Which I HATED. I know the most common response to this is, "If you don't like X, don't recruit them", but the player should be able to kick any of the Companions, at any time. Hell, part of me wishes you could dismiss the Advisors as well, rerouting their functions to minor NPCs. A good RPG should allow the player to customize the narrative to who and what they value, and not be chained to characters they don't care about. Off the top of my head, I can think several reasons to fire any of the major characters at the drop of a hat:
Cullen: The player could hate the Chantry, considers him potentially incompetent and his lyrium withdrawal a needless liability. From a meta perspective, they could find him boring, a Karma Houdini for his actions in the first two games, redundant (Cassandra could just as easily commanded the Inquisition's armies), queer baiting, and fan service taking time away from new characters.
Josephine: The player could find her pacifist approach horribly naïve at best, and a legitimate security risk at worst. Meta wise, the player finds her boring.
Leliana: The Inquisitor could see her as an incompetent, mentally unstable risk who refuses to follow orders. Meta wise, they could hate her Creator's Pet status.
Cassandra: The player could see her as a rash, violent, intolerant bully with divided loyalties (the Chantry, the Seekers, and the Inquisition).
Solas: The player could hate his arrogance, not so veiled racism, or that his "Fade knowledge" isn't nearly as valuable as he wants us to think. Meta wise, players could hate that they're stuck with one responsible for this mess and the next one. And losing an arm. And all the Solavellan drama ...
Varric: The Inquisitor could feel his spy network is overrated and redundant, and want him out for lying about Hawke. Not to mention all the Bianca drama, being another Creator's Pet, and teasing everyone who wanted a proper dwarfmance.
Blackwall: Yes you can get rid of him at Adamant and in his Personal Quest, but you should also be able to fire him for never actually producing Grey Warden help. Meta wise, you could find him boring, and his "courtly love" of Josephine or romance arc creepy.
Iron Bull: The Inquisitor could change their minds and consider the Chargers and/or Bull not worth the risk of having an open Qunari spy in the Inquisition. Meta wise, the player could hate his dudebro personality, hate his romance arc or Adoribull.
Cole: The inquisitor could change their minds when they learn the full extent of Cole's "help" (basically mind rape) or his activities at the White Spire (killing mages, unknowingly framing Rhys, helping to truly kick off the Mage-Templar War). Meta wise, they could get sick of his scatter brained banter, and/or hate how Patrick Weekes whitewashed him.
Vivienne: The Inquisitor could hate her arrogance and hypocrisy, hates how she uses the Inquisitor and Inquisition for personal gain, and how her supposed allies and resources never pan out. Meta wise, the player could hate how she always gets the last word and makes them look foolish .
Dorian: The Inquisitor could hate his ego, slavery apology, and consider him a possible Venatori sleeper agent. Meta wise, they could hate his "After School Special" Personal Quest.
Obviously, I didn't include Sera since she CAN be kicked at any time.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 22:04:30 GMT
Honestly, the difference between vengeance and justice are irrelevant in my mind when it comes to Blackwall's situation. Smart and practical vs petty and stupid are what matters here. Blackwall is more useful alive fighting the greatest evils on Thedas than dead. I know that's pretty hypocritical coming from me given that I let Sera beat Lord Harmond to death almost every time, but Blackwall is at least reliably reformed and will be basically end up executed by the Blight or darkspawn eventually anyway. Making him a Warden seems to me to be a win, win. I disagree that he is reliably reformed. I don't think he is reformed at all, and agree with Cassandra's comment about it: "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another."
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 22:06:31 GMT
The law is not for vengeance. He's already harmless, and ready to redeem himself. The Mercy, you know, exists. Blackwall can serve the good if the Inquisitor pardons him, or send him to the Grey Wardens. In the cell, he isn't able to serve anything. He is not harmless. He is a trained soldier, so even without weapons he can harm people. He has not shown that he was genuinely trying to redeem himself. Heck even he says he can't be. In his cell and on the rope, he still serves: as an example and a warning to others. But I know debating with you about this is pointless, since you straight up support terrorists attacking civilians. So all those years of helping random villagers, joining the Inquisition, and willingness to expose his true identity to save a man's life was what? A hobby? A lark?
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 22:08:11 GMT
Honestly, the difference between vengeance and justice are irrelevant in my mind when it comes to Blackwall's situation. Smart and practical vs petty and stupid are what matters here. Blackwall is more useful alive fighting the greatest evils on Thedas than dead. I know that's pretty hypocritical coming from me given that I let Sera beat Lord Harmond to death almost every time, but Blackwall is at least reliably reformed and will be basically end up executed by the Blight or darkspawn eventually anyway. Making him a Warden seems to me to be a win, win. I disagree that he is reliably reformed. I don't think he is reformed at all, and agree with Cassandra's comment about it: "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another." Sure alright. That still doesn't mean him joining the Grey Wardens doesn't serve as a chance for productive redemption. Also, why don't you think he's completely redeemed by the end of Trespasser?
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 20, 2018 22:11:48 GMT
I side with Cole and Sera on this one.
Blackwall: Cole, if you knew what I am, what I'd done, why didn't you tell the others? Cole: Everyone hides dead things. Everyone pretends. You wanted to fix it. Blackwall: I'm a murderer. Cole: You don't want to be. You made a new you. You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier. Blackwall: If only that were possible. Cole: You would stand between Rainier and the carriage. But you can't. It doesn't work like that. So you carry the bodies to remember. Blackwall: I suppose I do.
•
Sera: Always knew you were up to something. Blackwall: Sorry. Sera: For what? Trying? Better than most ever do.
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Post by warden on Jan 20, 2018 22:13:57 GMT
the problem is Hanako can't see straight of her Mary Sue Inquisitors. (Well Inquisitor is a Mary Sue despite how much you want to headcanon or jackass you play this character anyway) And that's only one part of the problem.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 22:15:04 GMT
I side with Cole and Sera on this one. Blackwall: Cole, if you knew what I am, what I'd done, why didn't you tell the others? Cole: Everyone hides dead things. Everyone pretends. You wanted to fix it. Blackwall: I'm a murderer. Cole: You don't want to be. You made a new you. You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier. Blackwall: If only that were possible. Cole: You would stand between Rainier and the carriage. But you can't. It doesn't work like that. So you carry the bodies to remember. Blackwall: I suppose I do. • Sera: Always knew you were up to something. Blackwall: Sorry. Sera: For what? Trying? Better than most ever do. Yeah, Cole can literally look into people's souls, so I think he's the number one authority here. Than again by Hanako Ikezawa logic Cole should be killed as an example too for murdering all those mages in the White Spire.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 22:16:28 GMT
I disagree that he is reliably reformed. I don't think he is reformed at all, and agree with Cassandra's comment about it: "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another." Sure alright. That still doesn't mean him joining the Grey Wardens doesn't serve as a chance for productive redemption. Also, why don't you think he's completely redeemed by the end of Trespasser? Two reasons. One, what he did is practically irredeemable. When even hardened criminals think you are a monster, then most likely you are(Seriously, the most hated people in prisons are those who have committed crimes where the victims were children. Second place is rapists.). Two, he never says or shows anything to show him trying to help the victims of his crime like any surviving family members. To him, leaving his men who were associates to take the blame was the part he tries to fix. He never talks about giving money to any surviving relatives or trying to apologize at the dead's grave site or anything.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 20, 2018 22:18:05 GMT
the problem is Hanako can't see straight of her Mary Sue Inquisitors. (Well Inquisitor is a Mary Sue despite how much you want to headcanon or jackass you play this character anyway) And that's only one part of the problem. Now come on that's a bit unfair. Chances are the reason why Hanako is so gung-ho about killing Blackwall has nothing to do with a Mary Sue Inquisitor that only sees things in black or white. Methinks they just want to remove even the possibility of Blackwall, or anyone really, from getting close to Josephine.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2018 22:18:38 GMT
The law is not for vengeance. He's already harmless, and ready to redeem himself. The Mercy, you know, exists. Blackwall can serve the good if the Inquisitor pardons him, or send him to the Grey Wardens. In the cell, he isn't able to serve anything. He is not harmless. He is a trained soldier, so even without weapons he can harm people. He has not shown that he was genuinely trying to redeem himself. Heck even he says he can't be. In his cell and on the rope, he still serves: as an example and a warning to others. But I know debating with you about this is pointless, since you straight up support terrorists attacking civilians. Everyone can harm people. He showed: he trains the civil guys to protect themselves, and joined the Inquisition. He would able to leave and live in peace. His only sin is his lie, but he tried to correct: he reported himself. But perhaps, I'm pointless. Or you just want another Anders debate here?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 22:19:34 GMT
the problem is Hanako can't see straight of her Mary Sue Inquisitors. (Well Inquisitor is a Mary Sue despite how much you want to headcanon or jackass you play this character anyway) And that's only one part of the problem. Now come on that's a bit unfair. Chances are the reason why Hanako is so gung-ho about killing Blackwall has nothing to do with a Mary Sue Inquisitor that only sees things in black or white. Methinks they just want to remove even the possibility of Blackwall, or anyone really, from getting close to Josephine. Nope, that's not a reason. Why would I need to do that when nothing even happens between them anyway. I just don't tolerate child killers. Also how is obeying the law suddenly "gung-ho about killing someone"? If they left him in prison for the rest of his life, that's fine too.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 22:20:51 GMT
He is not harmless. He is a trained soldier, so even without weapons he can harm people. He has not shown that he was genuinely trying to redeem himself. Heck even he says he can't be. In his cell and on the rope, he still serves: as an example and a warning to others. But I know debating with you about this is pointless, since you straight up support terrorists attacking civilians. Everyone can harm people. He showed: he trains the civil guys to protect themselves, and joined the Inquisition. He would able to leave and live in peace. His only sin is his lie, but he tried to correct: he reported himself. But perhaps, I'm pointless. Or you just want another Anders debate here?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 20, 2018 22:24:34 GMT
Everyone can harm people. He showed: he trains the civil guys to protect themselves, and joined the Inquisition. He would able to leave and live in peace. His only sin is his lie, but he tried to correct: he reported himself. But perhaps, I'm pointless. Or you just want another Anders debate here? Oh, yes... I see I forget to write: AFTER his people killed that family. I apologise.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 20, 2018 22:25:05 GMT
I disagree that he is reliably reformed. I don't think he is reformed at all, and agree with Cassandra's comment about it: "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another." Sure alright. That still doesn't mean him joining the Grey Wardens doesn't serve as a chance for productive redemption. Also, why don't you think he's completely redeemed by the end of Trespasser? It isn't just Blackwall, as Hanako has shown a pattern of rejecting even the possibility of redemption for morally dubious or villainous characters; Loghain, Isabella, Anders, Sera, Iron Bull, Solas, Jack from Mass Effect, and so on. The real question is why...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2018 22:26:51 GMT
Oh, yes... I see I forget to write: AFTER his people killed that family. I apologise. Not just his people. He was personally involved. He got near enough to hear the kids singing a nursery rhyme before he and his men attacked the carriage, yet didn't call it off.
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