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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 27, 2017 17:39:07 GMT
I find Sera to be the most endearing LI in Bioware history. She's got a sad past, but she doesn't let it dominate her. She's not a problem to be fixed or solved. Take her as she is or leave her. Her backstory informs her present, gives her a "devil may care" attitude towards many things, but she's also got an inquisitive mind and spirit for things that she can't touch or understand. Yes, this quite often comes out as "I don't wanna know, I don't want to think about it" in conversations...but the fact that she's thinking about it at all to bring it up in conversations gives the "lie" to the protestations. I agree, but I notice a lack of mention of her flaws in your post. She is super-duper judgmental, and I understand why that turns a lot of players off, particularly elfophiles. But, to your point, her flaws are also part of what make her a more authentic, grounded character. To me, Sera and The Iron Bull are the "salt of the earth" characters that serve as the "everyman" standard that every other character is measured against. Whether my Inquisitor romances her or not, she's an interesting character with some of the best writing in the game.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 27, 2017 17:53:30 GMT
So I read all the arguments in this thread -- or I should say reread, since this is well-covered ground -- and all I can think is that if I were a Bioware writer, I'd throw up my hands in despair. No matter what the writers do, someone is unhappy. I would not be surprised if in DA4 they gave up on romances altogether as a bad idea and spent those precious script word counts on other things, like the plot of the main story.
FWIW, the more I read the polarizing opinions about romances -- More conventionally beautiful girls for straight dudes! More playersexuals! Don't force me to crossplay! Don't force me to crossrace! More authenticity! -- the more I want the writers to flip the finger to the players and tell us to fuck off, we're writing this the way we think is best and you can just go find yourself a romance simulator to get off on.
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Ser Barksalot - Hiatus
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shechinah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Dec 27, 2017 17:58:45 GMT
I agree, but I notice a lack of mention of her flaws in your post. She is super-duper judgmental, and I understand why that turns a lot of players off, particularly elfophiles. But, to your point, her flaws are also part of what make her a more authentic, grounded character. To me, Sera and The Iron Bull are the "salt of the earth" characters that serve as the "everyman" standard that every other character is measured against. Whether my Inquisitor romances her or not, she's an interesting character with some of the best writing in the game. I agree. I dislike Sera immensely, in no small part due to how I find her to be a judgemental hypocrite but I also, however, find her to be a well-written character, in large part because of those flaws. For example, I can understand why she is the way that she is even if I don't consider it to be an excuse for her behavior. I think my feelings on Sera are best described me disliking her as a person but loving how she's written as a character.
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N2
Argh my head
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: vometia
XBL Gamertag: vometia
Posts: 111 Likes: 194
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Argh my head
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by vometia on Dec 27, 2017 18:01:36 GMT
I didn't really see Sera as necessarily extremely judgemental, but she is certainly opinionated and very cautious to the point of being somewhat defensive. I'm not sure her and my elfy magey type will ever see eye-to-eye on issues of magic, but I figure that's okay, people often have different opinions about important stuff. For me, what makes her as a character is that she isn't simply coerced or forced into agreeing with the player though as someone else mentioned she does think about stuff more than she likes to admit.
And yeah, the point about the lack of consensus: you can't please everyone, and all that. I think for me I'm slightly wary of the playersexual approach as I think it undermines the strength of the characters' individuality, though I accept that could result in a sucky situation where there's nobody I really fancy. Video games being too much like RL, argh! But I think the main thing is as long as both the character and the romance is done properly: looking at Andromeda, my LI was, er, thingy, the Scottish scientist type, which was okay except for the actual romance section itself being extremely threadbare to the point where after a couple of snogs that's yer lot, it wasn't even acknowledged. Which was a bit of a bummer.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by shechinah on Dec 27, 2017 18:06:40 GMT
So I read all the arguments in this thread -- or I should say reread, since this is well-covered ground -- and all I can think is that if I were a Bioware writer, I'd throw up my hands in despair. No matter what the writers do, someone is unhappy. I would not be surprised if in DA4 they gave up on romances altogether as a bad idea and spent those precious script word counts on other things, like the plot of the main story. While it can get very frustrating at times, it is part of being a creator. For example, just because a creator receive a lot of feedback, both good and bad, does not mean they'll have to take all of it into account. They judge it and see which they feel have merit and which they feel do not. It's the same with what requests and demands a creator may receive. I suppose a, perhaps poor, comparison could be to a commission artist. Someone may wish to request a work done in a specific style or of a specific something but the artist may refuse on account of not using such a style or preferring to not draw things of that specific nature.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2017 18:17:31 GMT
But I think the main thing is as long as both the character and the romance is done properly: looking at Andromeda, my LI was, er, thingy, the Scottish scientist type, which was okay except for the actual romance section itself being extremely threadbare to the point where after a couple of snogs that's yer lot, it wasn't even acknowledged. Which was a bit of a bummer. Sorry you didn't enjoy Suvi's romance. However what do you mean by "it wasn't even acknowledged"? It was acknowledged in the game.
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N2
Argh my head
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: vometia
XBL Gamertag: vometia
Posts: 111 Likes: 194
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Argh my head
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by vometia on Dec 27, 2017 18:27:54 GMT
Sorry you didn't enjoy Suvi's romance. However what do you mean by "it wasn't even acknowledged"? It was acknowledged in the game. I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it, there just wasn't a great deal of it. The non-acknowledgement thing is once the romance subplot is done it's as if nothing happened: in contrast with e.g. Sera where she'll acknowledge you as her gf thereafter and there's always that couple of options to kiss her or throw melons off the roof of the pub. Well, until the MQ is done when all dialogue options are inexplicably disabled.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2017 18:34:43 GMT
Sorry you didn't enjoy Suvi's romance. However what do you mean by "it wasn't even acknowledged"? It was acknowledged in the game. I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it, there just wasn't a great deal of it. The non-acknowledgement thing is once the romance subplot is done it's as if nothing happened: in contrast with e.g. Sera where she'll acknowledge you as her gf thereafter and there's always that couple of options to kiss her or throw melons off the roof of the pub. Well, until the MQ is done when all dialogue options are inexplicably disabled. Ah, okay. I see what you mean now. Yeah that is a problem with all the MEA romances. Hopefully we get a sequel with Ryder and Co and get more content for the romances, including that kind of content you are talking about. Though in Suvi's case I hope they keep the ambiguity in the kind of relationship it is, or do what they did with Cora where there is a sexual and non-sexual route.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,272 Likes: 50,587
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2017 19:01:25 GMT
Sorry you didn't enjoy Suvi's romance. However what do you mean by "it wasn't even acknowledged"? It was acknowledged in the game. I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it, there just wasn't a great deal of it. The non-acknowledgement thing is once the romance subplot is done it's as if nothing happened: in contrast with e.g. Sera where she'll acknowledge you as her gf thereafter and there's always that couple of options to kiss her or throw melons off the roof of the pub. Well, until the MQ is done when all dialogue options are inexplicably disabled. That's one thing I liked about DAO: once you've started a romance, the character's "barks" when you clicked on them would change, effectively acknowledging the romance every time you took control of them on the map.
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N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,272 Likes: 50,587
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2017 19:03:49 GMT
So I read all the arguments in this thread -- or I should say reread, since this is well-covered ground -- and all I can think is that if I were a Bioware writer, I'd throw up my hands in despair. No matter what the writers do, someone is unhappy. I would not be surprised if in DA4 they gave up on romances altogether as a bad idea and spent those precious script word counts on other things, like the plot of the main story. FWIW, the more I read the polarizing opinions about romances -- More conventionally beautiful girls for straight dudes! More playersexuals! Don't force me to crossplay! Don't force me to crossrace! More authenticity! -- the more I want the writers to flip the finger to the players and tell us to fuck off, we're writing this the way we think is best and you can just go find yourself a romance simulator to get off on. I suspect some players won't be happy until the next game looks like the set of a porn film...
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warden
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https://images4.alphacoders.com/101/thumb-1920-1010967.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Dec 27, 2017 19:04:52 GMT
I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it, there just wasn't a great deal of it. The non-acknowledgement thing is once the romance subplot is done it's as if nothing happened: in contrast with e.g. Sera where she'll acknowledge you as her gf thereafter and there's always that couple of options to kiss her or throw melons off the roof of the pub. Well, until the MQ is done when all dialogue options are inexplicably disabled. That's one thing I liked about DAO: once you've started a romance, the character's "barks" when you clicked on them would change, effectively acknowledging the romance every time you took control of them on the map. you are mentioning a game of the past, careful there, or you will get burned as it's a taboo to do those kind of things here. (just a friendly warning even if you don't care)
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,272 Likes: 50,587
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2017 19:06:57 GMT
That's one thing I liked about DAO: once you've started a romance, the character's "barks" when you clicked on them would change, effectively acknowledging the romance every time you took control of them on the map. you are mentioning a game of the past, careful there, or you will get burned as it's a taboo to do those kind of things here. (just a friendly warning even if you don't care)
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VanSinn
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: VanSinn77
Posts: 576 Likes: 1,429
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576
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
VanSinn77
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Post by VanSinn on Dec 27, 2017 19:55:40 GMT
I find Sera to be the most endearing LI in Bioware history. She's got a sad past, but she doesn't let it dominate her. She's not a problem to be fixed or solved. Take her as she is or leave her. Her backstory informs her present, gives her a "devil may care" attitude towards many things, but she's also got an inquisitive mind and spirit for things that she can't touch or understand. Yes, this quite often comes out as "I don't wanna know, I don't want to think about it" in conversations...but the fact that she's thinking about it at all to bring it up in conversations gives the "lie" to the protestations. I agree, but I notice a lack of mention of her flaws in your post. She is super-duper judgmental, and I understand why that turns a lot of players off, particularly elfophiles. But, to your point, her flaws are also part of what make her a more authentic, grounded character. To me, Sera and The Iron Bull are the "salt of the earth" characters that serve as the "everyman" standard that every other character is measured against. Whether my Inquisitor romances her or not, she's an interesting character with some of the best writing in the game. Hmmm. After re-reading the post you quoted, it appears you're correct that I glossed over her flaws a bit more than I should have, I guess. I wasn't going for an in-depth character study, but I see your point. My last comment in that post (she was written to be polarizing, some will hate her, some will love her, etc) was intended to at least acknowledge she has flaws, but I guess it wasn't as clear "out of my own head" as I thought it'd be. Yeah, she can be an opinionated ass about some subjects. And she quite often lacks a "big picture" view of things that could help moderate her actions. I tend to be a bit more 'big picture' myself, though, and I can see that looking at the big picture too much can cause you to miss the important "little picture" moments. She also has a fairly dim view of "elfy" elves. One I happen to agree with, although not as harshly as she does. Elves are definitely second class citizens in much of Thedas, so it's quite understandable for some of them to reject "andrastian" society and form (reform?) a culture they barely understand but view as distinctly theirs. In my opinion, the Dalish Elves cling so tightly to barely remembered songs and scraps of stories, which on the face of it is fine, but they then use that to further the difference between them and "shemlen." Sera thinks that's a load of rubbish, and in many ways so do I. By all means, celebrate your heritage. Try to learn "where you come from." But instead of focusing on how we're different, I think our goal should be to find the ways we're more alike. I could write a Wall-O-Text regarding my opinions on race relations in Thedas, but I'll cut it short here, I think. Last thing I'll say, though, is that I agree with you that her flaws are realistic flaws. She's probably the best written single companion in a single game Bioware's done. I'd love more content with her in DA4, but to be honest, she'd work best as a cameo along with the inquisitor if romanced, as a side note in something similar to the War Table operations if not romanced. I just hope there's someone "similar" in DA4, 'cause she was awesome and I want more characters like her.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 27, 2017 20:10:10 GMT
I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it, there just wasn't a great deal of it. The non-acknowledgement thing is once the romance subplot is done it's as if nothing happened: in contrast with e.g. Sera where she'll acknowledge you as her gf thereafter and there's always that couple of options to kiss her or throw melons off the roof of the pub. Well, until the MQ is done when all dialogue options are inexplicably disabled. That's one thing I liked about DAO: once you've started a romance, the character's "barks" when you clicked on them would change, effectively acknowledging the romance every time you took control of them on the map. They did that in DA2 as well, at least with Fenris. I still hear that sultry "I am yours"... There were romance-specific lines when Hawke was KO'd, too: Things like that are a nice touch.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 27, 2017 20:18:32 GMT
There were romance-specific lines when Hawke was KO'd, too Dorian has a post-battle remark: "Are you all right? Good! Me too" (or something like that). Sadly, I've only gotten it a single time. I think Cassandra takes priority in my party setup (usually Dorian, Cole, Cassandra), in the same way that Solas takes priority over other mages for magical observations, so I never get to hear it.
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Top
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Post by Catilina on Dec 27, 2017 20:31:48 GMT
There were romance-specific lines when Hawke was KO'd, too Dorian has a post-battle remark: "Are you all right? Good! Me too" (or something like that). Sadly, I've only gotten it a single time. I think Cassandra takes priority in my party setup (usually Dorian, Cole, Cassandra), in the same way that Solas takes priority over other mages for magical observations, so I never get to hear it. Dorian's voice, Well of Sorrows and Anders, Qunari war:
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 27, 2017 20:53:09 GMT
Dorian's voice, Well of Sorrows That's part of a cutscene, so I don't think it counts for the combat bark discussion.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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phoray
Gotta be kiddin me
13,123
August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by phoray on Dec 27, 2017 21:14:30 GMT
So I read all the arguments in this thread -- or I should say reread, since this is well-covered ground -- and all I can think is that if I were a Bioware writer, I'd throw up my hands in despair. No matter what the writers do, someone is unhappy. I would not be surprised if in DA4 they gave up on romances altogether as a bad idea and spent those precious script word counts on other things, like the plot of the main story. FWIW, the more I read the polarizing opinions about romances -- More conventionally beautiful girls for straight dudes! More playersexuals! Don't force me to crossplay! Don't force me to crossrace! More authenticity! -- the more I want the writers to flip the finger to the players and tell us to fuck off, we're writing this the way we think is best and you can just go find yourself a romance simulator to get off on. Falling in love while saving the world is the #1 reason I prefer Bioware over all other developers. Not doing romances at all would destroy their fan base from my perspective.
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Now Available As A Combo Meal!
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0
16,649
dragontartare
Add a cookie for just $1.99 (plus tax)!
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Aug 14, 2016 19:06:09 GMT
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dragontartare
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
DragonsALaMode
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Post by dragontartare on Dec 27, 2017 21:40:49 GMT
So I read all the arguments in this thread -- or I should say reread, since this is well-covered ground -- and all I can think is that if I were a Bioware writer, I'd throw up my hands in despair. No matter what the writers do, someone is unhappy. I would not be surprised if in DA4 they gave up on romances altogether as a bad idea and spent those precious script word counts on other things, like the plot of the main story. FWIW, the more I read the polarizing opinions about romances -- More conventionally beautiful girls for straight dudes! More playersexuals! Don't force me to crossplay! Don't force me to crossrace! More authenticity! -- the more I want the writers to flip the finger to the players and tell us to fuck off, we're writing this the way we think is best and you can just go find yourself a romance simulator to get off on. Falling in love while saving the world is the #1 reason I prefer Bioware over all other developers. Not doing romances at all would destroy their fan base from my perspective. I like that when I romance a different character, I know for sure that I will get to see content that I've never seen before, no matter how completionist my previous playthroughs have been. Plus, it adds depth to my PC and her/his relationship with the other characters, and it's another way to see my choices reflected in the game. I appreciate little things like the battle cries others have mentioned, other characters acknowledging the relationship, repeatable kiss scenes, etc. I have no need for sex scenes in the game. I don't know why people jump to the "you just want to get off!" accusation when they get frustrated with romance discussions. Perhaps they are projecting?
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Post by patrickbateman on Dec 28, 2017 0:58:11 GMT
Ashley in ME 1and 3, Miranda in ME2 and Isabela in DA2, that's what I want. Don't get me wrong, I have a so called 'RL GF' since years back so I know what real women look like, but is there seriously anything wrong to want a really attractive woman as a LI in a made up imaginary world without having an army of politically correct gaming nerds on you for that request?
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 28, 2017 1:53:11 GMT
Ashley in ME 1and 3, Miranda in ME2 and Isabela in DA2, that's what I want. Don't get me wrong, I have a so called 'RL GF' since years back so I know what real women look like, but is there seriously anything wrong to want a really attractive woman as a LI in a made up imaginary world without having an army of politically correct gaming nerds on you for that request? I don't think it's wrong. I just don't understand why women like Josephine and Cora aren't considered "conventionally attractive" when they obviously have feminine features, nearly flawless skin, permanent makeup, shiny healthy hair, hourglass figures, etc.
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N1
Not a fluent english speaker '-'
Posts: 46 Likes: 36
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Post by Faust on Dec 28, 2017 2:08:34 GMT
I don't think that there is a single character universally considered attractive. Even as a woman, I understand why some guys find them ugly, at least it's not Iron bull level of ugliness. It's just Solas level.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 28, 2017 2:10:17 GMT
I don't think that there is a single character universally considered attractive. Even as a woman, I understand why some guys find them ugly, at least it's not Iron bull level of ugliness. It's just Solas level. Definitely subjective. I think Bull is more attractive than almost any male companion we've had.
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Not a fluent english speaker '-'
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Post by Faust on Dec 28, 2017 2:23:00 GMT
I don't think that there is a single character universally considered attractive. Even as a woman, I understand why some guys find them ugly, at least it's not Iron bull level of ugliness. It's just Solas level. Definitely subjective. I think Bull is more attractive than almost any male companion we've had. Now I'm curious , which character do you find ugly ? Or the least attractive ?
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 28, 2017 2:44:48 GMT
Definitely subjective. I think Bull is more attractive than almost any male companion we've had. Now I'm curious , which character do you find ugly ? Or the least attractive ? I don't think they're ugly, just not to my personal taste. Blackwall's pretty unattractive to me because I'm not into all the hair and everyone implies that he has bad hygiene. Cullen doesn't do anything for me but I don't think he's gross or anything. I think Leliana in DAO is a little goofy looking but that's just the dated graphics.
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