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Post by Darth_Atreyu on Oct 1, 2016 13:50:36 GMT
I was watching the IGN show Gamescoop 406, and the panel were talking about how the amount of time spent in a game doesn't equate to how good the game is. They then got into the fact that as they have more responsibilities, they find it more and more frustrating and intimidating to trudge through time-consuming combat portions of games they otherwise enjoy or would enjoy and wish they could skip them sometimes and just experience the story instead. This got me contemplating on how several years ago a developer at Bioware said just about the same thing and got massive hate, deaththreats, misogynistic comments and rapethreats to her and her children. I believe she eventually had to relocate. I heard her story in a documentary about sexism in the gaming industry a while ago and it really stuck with me. So as I watched the IGN show I checked the comment section to see the reaction, and the reaction was very sparsed and very different to the one the developer received. So my question is, has the gaming industry simply gotten better regarding issues like sexism and violent threats directed at people working in the industry, or was the IGN Gamescoop commentary a case of sexism by some in the gaming culture were commentary is received differently by segments of the gaming audience depending on the sex of the person commenting?
This post is about threats and violence in various forms against game developers. Nothing else
Segment starts at the 15:50 mark.
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 1, 2016 14:03:50 GMT
"Gaming culture" has not had a problem with misogyny.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 14:09:57 GMT
Would depend on the game and the community I guess To me... its a little like books... the more complex the story and the more depth you have in the world and the characters the more mature the audiences will be (this is kinda speaking generally here)... not just in terms of their age but their behavior also The more mature an audience is the better behaved they are (again speaking generally here there are always exceptions even with mature audiences) so the less likely they are to say things like that Part of me would also like to mention the like violence involved in a game but that isnt technically true... it isnt the violence its the competition... In another thread I mentioned how there are rises in hate speech and domestic violence when big sport events happen and I guess this is kinda the same... its the mindset of seeing other people as competition rather than allies and the challenge of beating the people who oppose them And er Captain America 3 quote "Challenge incites conflict. And conflict breeds catastrophe" To me the more players have to work together to achieve a goal the better the community will be... the better the community the less hate speech exists towards anyone (although as before there are always exceptions unfortunately)... So yeah id argue that how common misogyny is depends on the game and the audience... I cant speak about overall because I dont know enough about gaming and dont have experience with other gaming communities
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Post by Shinobu on Oct 1, 2016 14:14:28 GMT
I was watching the IGN show Gamescoop 406, and the panel were talking about how the amount of time spent in a game doesn't equate to how good the game is. They then got into the fact that as they have more responsibilities, they find it more and more frustrating and intimidating to trudge through time-consuming combat portions of games they otherwise enjoy or would enjoy and wish they could skip them sometimes and just experience the story instead. This got me contemplating on how several years ago a developer at Bioware said just about the same thing and got massive hate, deaththreats, misogynistic comments and rapethreats to her and her children. I believe she eventually had to relocate. I heard her story in a documentary about sexism in the gaming industry a while ago and it really stuck with me. So as I watched the IGN show I checked the comment section to see the reaction, and the reaction was very sparsed and very different to the one the developer received. So my question is, has the gaming industry simply gotten better regarding issues like sexism and violent threats directed at people working in the industry, or was the IGN Gamescoop commentary a case of sexism by some in the gaming culture were commentary is received differently by segments of the gaming audience depending on the sex of the person commenting? Segment starts at the 15:50 mark. I'd choose #2. If those guys had been women I'm sure they would have gotten flack.
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 14:19:28 GMT
misogyny is often misunderstood and misused so it would be impossible to say unless you actually worked in the companies making the games as to wither or not they suffered from it.
that said there talking about the storylines on screen and let be honest the constant push to promote various gender specific /religion conscious equality has lead to a lot of piss poor stories being used that have made the games suffer
what makes this even funnier is that some games companies use female storywriters who are accused of anti feminist /anti rainbow rights things which then makes them want to quit their jobs or makes them revise stuff to the point of being yet another point and click shoot the bad guy with ultimately dire one liners and totally jarring role play ideas that the gamers just dislike ...
nobody cares if you choose to play a female or a male avatar (I often play both just to make sure the storylines are the same) so long as the romance options remain and your ultimately able to enjoy the game.
clearly bioware got this aspect right in the me series just by allowing players to choose their preferences.... but this constant push to alter or reimage old games to make them "more" generally ends up just making them less and less, look at a war game, it takes a certain type of person to be a warrior (mind set -mixture of fuckoff/were fucked/can do attitude-shimfing mofo) and eq types don't fit that bill because there by definition to hung up on one issue to be any good at the others and wont fit the mold, once you try and break that mould you screw the basics and it leaps past enjoyable fantasy into somehtings wrong on a base level that I just cant pin down, which makes it crappy to play
by all means come up with a basic storyh outline and some concept art then hire two separate groups of equally qualified people to makle the game, pick one side as traditional employees and the otrher exclusively from the rainbow crowd and see which version gets accepted best by the fans, if its some kind of war game it had best be all about kick ass soldiers acting all gung ho at work or it wont score well....
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Darth_Atreyu
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Post by Darth_Atreyu on Oct 1, 2016 14:20:46 GMT
Would depend on the game and the community I guess To me... its a little like books... the more complex the story and the more depth you have in the world and the characters the more mature the audiences will be (this is kinda speaking generally here)... not just in terms of their age but their behavior also The more mature an audience is the better behaved they are (again speaking generally here there are always exceptions even with mature audiences) so the less likely they are to say things like that Part of me would also like to mention the like violence involved in a game but that isnt technically true... it isnt the violence its the competition... In another thread I mentioned how there are rises in hate speech and domestic violence when big sport events happen and I guess this is kinda the same... its the mindset of seeing other people as competition rather than allies and the challenge of beating the people who oppose them And er Captain America 3 quote "Challenge incites conflict. And conflict breeds catastrophe" To me the more players have to work together to achieve a goal the better the community will be... the better the community the less hate speech exists towards anyone (although as before there are always exceptions unfortunately)... So yeah id argue that how common misogyny is depends on the game and the audience... I cant speak about overall because I dont know enough about gaming and dont have experience with other gaming communities Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And I agree with alot of what you are saying.
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Darth_Atreyu
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Post by Darth_Atreyu on Oct 1, 2016 14:25:04 GMT
misogyny is often misunderstood and misused so it would be impossible to say unless you actually worked in the companies making the games as to wither or not they suffered from it. that said there talking about the storylines on screen and let be honest the constant push to promote various gender specific /religion conscious equality has lead to a lot of piss poor stories being used that have made the games suffer what makes this even funnier is that some games companies use female storywriters who are accused of anti feminist /anti rainbow rights things which then makes them want to quit their jobs or makes them revise stuff to the point of being yet another point and click shoot the bad guy with ultimately dire one liners and totally jarring role play ideas that the gamers just dislike ... nobody cares if you choose to play a female or a male avatar (I often play both just to make sure the storylines are the same) so long as the romance options remain and your ultimately able to enjoy the game. clearly bioware got this aspect right in the me series just by allowing players to choose their preferences.... but this constant push to alter or reimage old games to make them "more" generally ends up just making them less and less, look at a war game, it takes a certain type of person to be a warrior (mind set -mixture of fuckoff/were fucked/can do attitude-shimfing mofo) and eq types don't fit that bill because there by definition to hung up on one issue to be any good at the others and wont fit the mold, once you try and break that mould you screw the basics and it leaps past enjoyable fantasy into somehtings wrong on a base level that I just cant pin down, which makes it crappy to play by all means come up with a basic storyh outline and some concept art then hire two separate groups of equally qualified people to makle the game, pick one side as traditional employees and the otrher exclusively from the rainbow crowd and see which version gets accepted best by the fans, if its some kind of war game it had best be all about kick ass soldiers acting all gung ho at work or it wont score well.... Yes it's hard to know how wide-spread those issues are when we're not working in the industry or some just choose not to disclose, maybe because of fear of reprisal. But my comment was not about story content but rather gaming culture itself and how it has evolved. Thanks for the comment.
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 14:33:05 GMT
i'm saying that games whilst fictional must be based in reality in some way or the majority wont like them.
misogynist games wouldn't even have females in them, if there are females in the game then it cant be misogynist no matter how hard some fascist rights advocate cries that's not the case
that this gets misused an awful lot by frothy mouthed fanatics who don't understand that a true misogynist wouldn't even acknowledge they existed except to beat on them.... maybe GTA games are misogynist, but I never played one so could say for sure, most of the games I played the storyline has women in it that are an object to be admired (oogled) or loved, haven't played any that exclusively put women up as targets for hate and abuse though ... so with that in mind i'm not even sure that misogyny even exists in most games.....
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Oct 1, 2016 14:53:50 GMT
It was never really that much of a problem to begin with.
People often forget that we're talking about freaking VIDEO GAMES here. In a lot of those games you slaughter innocent people by the dozens in the most gruesome ways imaginable, you speed on highways crashing other cars, erase entire planets etc. Video games have little to do with real life and do not portray real life. Any social ''problem'' that exists in a video game is never going to leave the game to affect real life. Its just in there.
This whole ridiculous ''gaming journalism'' is blowing all this stuff completely out of proportion because they make a living from it. Journalism is cancer nowadays.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 14:54:54 GMT
i'm saying that games whilst fictional must be based in reality in some way or the majority wont like them. misogynist games wouldn't even have females in them, if there are females in the game then it cant be misogynist no matter how hard some fascist rights advocate cries that's not the case that this gets misused an awful lot by frothy mouthed fanatics who don't understand that a true misogynist wouldn't even acknowledge they existed except to beat on them.... maybe GTA games are misogynist, but I never played one so could say for sure, most of the games I played the storyline has women in it that are an object to be admired (oogled) or loved, haven't played any that exclusively put women up as targets for hate and abuse though ... so with that in mind i'm not even sure that misogyny even exists in most games..... The first sentence kinda makes sense... things like movies and video games can explore themes that are relevant in our society... and if something isnt relevant to someone chances are they wont have an interest in it It would be like giving a vegan a book on different ways to cook meat... it wouldnt be relevant to the desired audience so they wouldnt be interested (this assuming theyd never cook meat ever but eh) As for the second part... it isnt true... games dont have to have females in them (although obviously it makes for a better game if there are some and its also good for the audience for various reasons). Its more about the... not treatment as such but representation rather than the inclusion... for example... if someone made a game where every female character was beaten harassed and subservient the game would be misogynist and even more so than a game without women in at all Also you mentioned oogled... while not strictly misogyny objectification is also kinda in the same group
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 15:00:42 GMT
Also you mentioned oogled... while not strictly misogyny objectification is also kinda in the same group if your objectifying females then your the very antithesis of a misogynist..... you cant appreciate something if you hate it.....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 15:01:51 GMT
Oh lawd.
Gaming doesn't have a MESOGGYKNEEE!!!! Problem.
It does have a problem with idiot SJWs trying to force their cult onto everyone else though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 15:07:36 GMT
Also you mentioned oogled... while not strictly misogyny objectification is also kinda in the same group if your objectifying females then your the very antithesis of a misogynist..... you cant appreciate something if you hate it..... I said that they werent the same thing 'while not strictly misogyny'... kinda falls in the same group as misogyny though because both are about the representation of females in this case it would be about the way in which the game would appreciate them whether as people or as things
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Post by Darth_Atreyu on Oct 1, 2016 15:08:34 GMT
i'm saying that games whilst fictional must be based in reality in some way or the majority wont like them. misogynist games wouldn't even have females in them, if there are females in the game then it cant be misogynist no matter how hard some fascist rights advocate cries that's not the case that this gets misused an awful lot by frothy mouthed fanatics who don't understand that a true misogynist wouldn't even acknowledge they existed except to beat on them.... maybe GTA games are misogynist, but I never played one so could say for sure, most of the games I played the storyline has women in it that are an object to be admired (oogled) or loved, haven't played any that exclusively put women up as targets for hate and abuse though ... so with that in mind i'm not even sure that misogyny even exists in most games..... I've edited my original reply to your original comment. Well, what is reality? How you see the world might not be the way another person see it, alot of games have no connection to what we would constitute as reality, yet they are enjoyed all the same by alot of players. Of course games with women in them can be misogynistic. Games with only women in them can still be misogynistic. It's not the quantity of women in a game that makes it mysogynistic but the idea and the reprisentations that are reproduced about how women are that makes it so. Atleast that's how a feminist would say. Regarding "fascist rights advocates" : Wildly of-topic. I've found that listening and trying one's darndest to understand what another person is saying is sometimes good. Thanks for your comment nontheless.
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Post by Darth_Atreyu on Oct 1, 2016 15:15:15 GMT
It was never really that much of a problem to begin with. People often forget that we're talking about freaking VIDEO GAMES here. In a lot of those games you slaughter innocent people by the dozens in the most gruesome ways imaginable, you speed on highways crashing other cars, erase entire planets etc. Video games have little to do with real life and do not portray real life. Any social ''problem'' that exists in a video game is never going to leave the game to affect real life. Its just in there. This whole ridiculous ''gaming journalism'' is blowing all this stuff completely out of proportion because they make a living from it. Media is cancer nowadays. My comment had nothing to do with content in games but rather how we treat game developers. Nothing to do with game content or story lines. Slightly of- topic but do you think that things we love that can makes us happy can also makes us sad?
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 15:26:21 GMT
if your objectifying females then your the very antithesis of a misogynist..... you cant appreciate something if you hate it..... I said that they werent the same thing 'while not strictly misogyny'... kinda falls in the same group as misogyny though because both are about the representation of females in this case it would be about the way in which the game would appreciate them whether as people or as things the only reason to objectify something is if you love it, you cant love something that you despise, representation is either good or bad it cannot be both, one of the biggest reason 99% of feminism fails to attract positive attention is this mixture of opposing messages, start with the base line hate = absence or mistreatment within the game storyline of women where they should be equally portrayed. a soldier (male or female) is a defender of the weak, a civilian is generally portrayed as weak or useless (if they weren't weak they would be a soldier and thus defender of the weak) so in a game where some females are shown as needing rescuing and saving there being defended by soldiers and thus are just using societies normal division between military and civvies that's got nothing to do with misogyny, but it would be described as such, swap women for a rainbow club member and you get the same thing, not hate just normal defence of the weak.... hate is easy to generate and easy to spot but only if you understand what it actually is.... and I think you've miss interpreted many different things to make them all equate to the same thing when clearly that's not logically possible....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 15:26:50 GMT
It was never really that much of a problem to begin with. People often forget that we're talking about freaking VIDEO GAMES here. In a lot of those games you slaughter innocent people by the dozens in the most gruesome ways imaginable, you speed on highways crashing other cars, erase entire planets etc. Video games have little to do with real life and do not portray real life. Any social ''problem'' that exists in a video game is never going to leave the game to affect real life. Its just in there. This whole ridiculous ''gaming journalism'' is blowing all this stuff completely out of proportion because they make a living from it. Media is cancer nowadays. My comment had nothing to do with content in games but rather how we treat game developers. Nothing to do with game content or story lines. Slightly of- topic but do you think that things we love that can makes us happy can also makes us sad? Yup sometimes you love things because they make you cry... sometimes like happy-sad exists also I think as a whole people need to be better towards game developers... I think that they spend their time making a work of art for people to enjoy and if you dont like it thats fine but it doesnt diminish the time effort or skill which went into producing it
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 15:41:42 GMT
i'm saying that games whilst fictional must be based in reality in some way or the majority wont like them. misogynist games wouldn't even have females in them, if there are females in the game then it cant be misogynist no matter how hard some fascist rights advocate cries that's not the case that this gets misused an awful lot by frothy mouthed fanatics who don't understand that a true misogynist wouldn't even acknowledge they existed except to beat on them.... maybe GTA games are misogynist, but I never played one so could say for sure, most of the games I played the storyline has women in it that are an object to be admired (oogled) or loved, haven't played any that exclusively put women up as targets for hate and abuse though ... so with that in mind i'm not even sure that misogyny even exists in most games..... I've edited my original reply to your original comment. Well, what is reality? How you see the world might not be the way another person see it, alot of games have no connection to what we would constitute as reality, yet they are enjoyed all the same by alot of players. Of course games with women in them can be misogynistic. Games with only women in them can still be misogynistic. It's not the quantity of women in a game that makes it mysogynistic but the idea and the reprisentations that are reproduced about how women are that makes it so. Atleast that's how a feminist would say. Regarding "fascist rights advocates" : Wildly of-topic. I've found that listening and trying one's darndest to understand what another person is saying is sometimes good. Thanks for your comment nontheless. feminism is illogical and mixes up several opposing arguments and claims them all to be the same thing and then amplifies the problem by misusing terminology.... for example; you cannot say that a man is bad because he likes the female form and communicates this by wolf whistling then claim he's a misogynist pig and expect to be taken seriously, you cannot cry out that women are just as good at a job as a man after granting them a lesser standard of attainment to qualify for the position and be upset that the men who took the harder tests laugh and say whe nyou get the same score as me you can claim your as good... women are biologically not as good as men at several things, they are also biologically unsuitable for certain jobs because of this, just the same applies the opposite direction and men are not as good at some stuff... that's not being anti women just realism as to realism in a game, a commander in a military game will pick the top scoring people with the right skill set to achive a given task, (the same applies in reality) that generally means there not going to pick the dead weight for the job so its unrealistic to have an onscreen character that isn't a macho ass kicking machine, be that male or female.... trying to downgrade the character type of the defender of the weak and possibly helpless is always a mistake but has nothing to do with misogyny just rampant PC gone wrong trying to emulate reality....
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 1, 2016 15:41:56 GMT
Oh lawd. Gaming doesn't have a MESOGGYKNEEE!!!! Problem. It does have a problem with idiot SJWs trying to force their cult onto everyone else though. It's no different than the many of the right wing who insist that there is no problem at all. No different than the gamers who insist on there being no problem. Look, there's got to be a better way to do things if people on both ends are complaining.
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Post by DeepJIMPACT on Oct 1, 2016 16:00:46 GMT
NO WOMEN IN GAMING. VIDYA AKBAR
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 16:03:57 GMT
I said that they werent the same thing 'while not strictly misogyny'... kinda falls in the same group as misogyny though because both are about the representation of females in this case it would be about the way in which the game would appreciate them whether as people or as things the only reason to objectify something is if you love it, you cant love something that you despise, representation is either good or bad it cannot be both, one of the biggest reason 99% of feminism fails to attract positive attention is this mixture of opposing messages, start with the base line hate = absence or mistreatment within the game storyline of women where they should be equally portrayed. a soldier (male or female) is a defender of the weak, a civilian is generally portrayed as weak or useless (if they weren't weak they would be a soldier and thus defender of the weak) so in a game where some females are shown as needing rescuing and saving there being defended by soldiers and thus are just using societies normal division between military and civvies that's got nothing to do with misogyny, but it would be described as such, swap women for a rainbow club member and you get the same thing, not hate just normal defence of the weak.... hate is easy to generate and easy to spot but only if you understand what it actually is.... and I think you've miss interpreted many different things to make them all equate to the same thing when clearly that's not logically possible.... I cant speak for uh feminists because im personally not one... but I can say what I think To me it isnt about whether youre represented or not but by the way in which you are... Like in Dragon Age... you can go to The Pearl and have sex with prostitutes... if those prostitutes were the only representation females had in the whole game that would be objectification because the only females there are would be subservient personality-less sex objects to have fade to black sex with But in Dragon Age theres Morrigan (for example) who is an amazing character. It doesnt even matter that shes a bad ass witch who can murderize all the darkspawn... thats irrelevant... its about depth and portrayal... fair representation basically You mentioned about women needing saving... just because someone needs rescuing and because that someone happens to be a female or gay or whatever... thats completely fine thats not an issue at all its when you start talking about everyone and giving unfair representations... thats when people start to complain... and again not every female character has to be a super powerful bad ass... character flaws are more important than strengths after all. What im saying is that theres a difference between being a person and being a thing when it comes to characters, and as I said... its about fair representation not just representation as a whole
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 16:04:19 GMT
Oh lawd. Gaming doesn't have a MESOGGYKNEEE!!!! Problem. It does have a problem with idiot SJWs trying to force their cult onto everyone else though. It's no different than the many of the right wing who insist that there is no problem at all. No different than the gamers who insist on there being no problem. Look, there's got to be a better way to do things if people on both ends are complaining. yeah round up both groups see which one is smaller and shove it into a bunker without the aircon switched on and let them deprive each other of oxygen instead of the rest of the planet until the problem is gone ... well it would be the most peaceful way... otherwise its going to be a fight, either way the loony fringe will loose
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 16:08:28 GMT
Also title change just saying this is about developers
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Post by nanotm on Oct 1, 2016 16:20:52 GMT
Also title change just saying this is about developers yeah I noticed that but the discussion is already running.... as to dev's treatment generally they get treated well by the fans if the game works and lambasted if it doesn't, bioware has made some incredible games and been applauded for them by the fans but a few questionable choices have been severally lambasted by those same fans... for instance. however they managed to pull of a whole range of stuff from interspecies to rainbow alliance to hetro relationships and left it up to the players to decide which path they chose to take even allowing you to refuse to pursue anyone... the only groups that seem to never be happy are the protest movements, it doesn't matter that your free to choose whatever avatar you like if the default was a white guy its wrong, if its a black chick its wrong..... so if your going to get flak regardless might just as well pick the white guy and generate as much free publicity as you can ....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 16:48:45 GMT
Also title change just saying this is about developers yeah I noticed that but the discussion is already running.... as to dev's treatment generally they get treated well by the fans if the game works and lambasted if it doesn't, bioware has made some incredible games and been applauded for them by the fans but a few questionable choices have been severally lambasted by those same fans... for instance. however they managed to pull of a whole range of stuff from interspecies to rainbow alliance to hetro relationships and left it up to the players to decide which path they chose to take even allowing you to refuse to pursue anyone... the only groups that seem to never be happy are the protest movements, it doesn't matter that your free to choose whatever avatar you like if the default was a white guy its wrong, if its a black chick its wrong..... so if your going to get flak regardless might just as well pick the white guy and generate as much free publicity as you can ....
Haha well even before it was off topic/not the intended topic so you know good luck now is all ill say
This thread needs like a serious cleanup by now... like the type from Monsters Inc when the guys in yellow suits burst in
Now also talking about the topic since the confusing attempted hijack of a perfectly good thread happened:
To me, game developers just like movie producers and authors and artists and musicians... their job is to make people happy (or make people sad depending on what like the tone is of whatever youre playing/watching/reading/seeing/listening to)... either way its to provide people with entertainment... To me thats the most important thing and I think that game developers shouldnt be attacked... their mistakes can be pointed out for sure but they themselves shouldnt be... like the difference between calling someones actions stupid and calling them stupid
Im not sure whether bad treatment of them has decreased or not overall though. I just think it should.
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