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Post by close2myheart on Sept 28, 2018 0:32:37 GMT
I'd settle for the rise of Elvhenan, tbh (or have them exist in some way or form). But I'm not sure if the rest of the fanbase would've like it if things change too much, (like breaking the Human Noble mold where they don't sit on the top of the food chain) At best, I'd like to play an elvhen background who is not opressed or being marginalized I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless. +1 to the equality amongst races here. Or maybe I'd just want a differing flavours of each races (like Brosca and Aeducan. I love how one belongs to the 'invisible' caste group and the other is of a prominent house) I'd like it more if there are some good, bad, wise, short sighted and everything else in between amongst the elvhen (and future Elvhenan 😆 here's me being hopeful) and everyone else. Belonging to a certain race/belief doesn't grant a person immunity over stupid anyway 😆. Ah well, here's for waiting to DA4 and what it might unfold. I'm curious what fate will unfold for my eggheaded friend.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 2, 2018 20:01:54 GMT
I'd settle for the rise of Elvhenan, tbh (or have them exist in some way or form). But I'm not sure if the rest of the fanbase would've like it if things change too much, (like breaking the Human Noble mold where they don't sit on the top of the food chain) At best, I'd like to play an elvhen background who is not opressed or being marginalized I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless. Ugh... just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in...
When Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Brent Knowles and others initially constructed Dragon Age, they created it to be a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. Elves, magic, dragons and the rest, that's all just metaphorical window dressing; they wanted a world that explored how people would actually react in such a world, and not necessarily how we would like them to. That means confronting ugly truths about human nature, rather than burying our heads in beautiful lies. You can't fight evil by pretending it doesn't exist, or simply dismiss the the complex histories of other peoples' existences simply because you disagree with them.
"I see enough negativity in real life, fantasy should be uplifting and comforting!"
Some fantasies should be comforting and uplifting, but others need the honesty of fully exploring their respective subject matters. Seriously, you knew coming in that the DA franchise had dark and uncomfortable elements coming in. If you don't like said darkness, why not just move on to another, more idealistic story, rather than insisting DA be twisted into the kind of adolescent wish fulfillment it was originally meant to subvert?
"Even if it start dark, the new writers can make it lighter! Even more, they have a moral obligation to do so!"
Says who? This isn't some "the depiction of triggering content also endorses it" nonsense, is it? How do you expect to show characters triumphing over various prejudices if said attitudes never existed in the first place? I've seen bigots use inclusive media where no one faces discrimination of any kind as "proof" that such attitudes are over, and that marginalized people should just get over it . Now, given some of Patrick Weekes comments it's possible you might get your wish, if he and crew decide to betray DA's legacy, dumb down the franchise, and gut it's soul.
But I hope not.
"You're just a wannabe Edgelord that wants everything to be GRIMDARK!"
Nice try, but no. My stance has less to do with liking "dark" stories, than wishing Dragon Age remains faithful to the creators' original vision. Honestly, so called "mature re imaginings" like Batman V Superman, a movie that strips away all the fun of superheroes, strikes me as boring and pretentious. Likewise, I find darkfics of Harry Potter, Steven Universe, or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic to be equally ridiculous. My feeling is that if you want to deconstruct something, you're better off making your own version, instead of changing the original to fit your own personal bias. Which incidentally, is exactly what Bioware did when they made DA as a Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate. I like both light and dark stories, but mostly I like ones that have their own unique identity. Making Thedas and it's characters lighter and more idealistic might make some good stories, but it WOULDN'T be Dragon Age.
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Post by close2myheart on Oct 3, 2018 1:45:55 GMT
LoL chill, broooo... 😂
In whatever form or tone the next DA will be, honestly that will be entirely up to the dev's 'artistic integrity', yo.
Wether they want to paint it darker with 'little pony' stripes that's their game. Imma just gonna be here waiting and see what's it gonna be. And like always, if I like it, I buy it. If not then I don't. It's not like the world is gonna end.
In the mean time I'll just be here, sitting back, speculate, discuss perspective and headcanons with other peeps in an enjoyable manner. So you like strawberry flavour ice cream. I like cookies and cream. Cool.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Oct 3, 2018 2:19:26 GMT
I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless. Ugh... just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in...
When Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Brent Knowles and others initially constructed Dragon Age, they created it to be a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. Elves, magic, dragons and the rest, that's all just metaphorical window dressing; they wanted a world that explored how people would actually react in such a world, and not necessarily how we would like them to. That means confronting ugly truths about human nature, rather than burying our heads in beautiful lies. You can't fight evil by pretending it doesn't exist, or simply dismiss the the complex histories of other peoples' existences simply because you disagree with them.
"I see enough negativity in real life, fantasy should be uplifting and comforting!"
Some fantasies should be comforting and uplifting, but others need the honesty of fully exploring their respective subject matters. Seriously, you knew coming in that the DA franchise had dark and uncomfortable elements coming in. If you don't like said darkness, why not just move on to another, more idealistic story, rather than insisting DA be twisted into the kind of adolescent wish fulfillment it was originally meant to subvert?
"Even if it start dark, the new writers can make it lighter! Even more, they have a moral obligation to do so!"
Says who? This isn't some "the depiction of triggering content also endorses it" nonsense, is it? How do you expect to show characters triumphing over various prejudices if said attitudes never existed in the first place? I've seen bigots use inclusive media where no one faces discrimination of any kind as "proof" that such attitudes are over, and that marginalized people should just get over it . Now, given some of Patrick Weekes comments it's possible you might get your wish, if he and crew decide to betray DA's legacy, dumb down the franchise, and gut it's soul.
But I hope not.
"You're just a wannabe Edgelord that wants everything to be GRIMDARK!"
Nice try, but no. My stance has less to do with liking "dark" stories, than wishing Dragon Age remains faithful to the creators' original vision. Honestly, so called "mature re imaginings" like Batman V Superman, a movie that strips away all the fun of superheroes, strikes me as boring and pretentious. Likewise, I find darkfics of Harry Potter, Steven Universe, or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic to be equally ridiculous. My feeling is that if you want to deconstruct something, you're better off making your own version, instead of changing the original to fit your own personal bias. Which incidentally, is exactly what Bioware did when they made DA as a Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate. I like both light and dark stories, but mostly I like ones that have their own unique identity. Making Thedas and it's characters lighter and more idealistic might make some good stories, but it WOULDN'T be Dragon Age.
Things can be improved in-universe though without the writing taking on a Not Dragon Age tone. I mean, hey, circles aren't truly a thing anymore (at least not as they were for the last few centuries). That required a war, but there are people who would argue its a step in a better direction. There are also those who would argue it isn't, or at least not the way its been done is. The debate room is still there. Same for how the templars have gone.
I think the same kind of thing could be had for slavery in Tevinter, for example. They've already set it up with Fenris' story, Calpernia and Dorian. And Krem introducing the whole "servant publicus" concept. Slavery in Tevinter is more nuanced than what it was shown as in DAO and dealing with it likely will be, too. Assuming we even get to.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Oct 3, 2018 3:02:07 GMT
I'd settle for the rise of Elvhenan, tbh (or have them exist in some way or form). But I'm not sure if the rest of the fanbase would've like it if things change too much, (like breaking the Human Noble mold where they don't sit on the top of the food chain) At best, I'd like to play an elvhen background who is not opressed or being marginalized I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless.
The Casteless situation is so sad, horrible, and wrong.
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Post by close2myheart on Oct 3, 2018 3:13:12 GMT
"Things can be improved in-universe though without the writing taking on a Not Dragon Age tone. I mean, hey, circles aren't truly a thing anymore (at least not as they were for the last few centuries). That required a war, but there are people who would argue its a step in a better direction. There are also those who would argue it isn't, or at least not the way its been done is. The debate room is still there. Same for how the templars have gone." ... [snip]
Thank youuuu for this one.
No matter how you take it, life will always have it's struggles, change met with conflict and where ever a light is cast, there will always be a shadow.
In any way the story takes it's twist and turn, it will always have it's opportunity to cast it's darker or hopeful tone. Depending how the story is being presented.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2018 4:20:29 GMT
I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless.
The Casteless situation is so sad, horrible, and wrong. Yep - when I played DAO I've found their situation most upsetting of them all. Many groups in Thedas have it bad, but there's some sense of solidarity between them - if not whole groups then in sub-groups. There's somewhere or someone to lean back on in times of need. But Casteless are deprived of even that and oftentimes prey upon one another. Urgh. For things to change though they'd have to change a lot about their traditional caste system, if not cast it away completely. Anyway... given that it's established in Descent that Orzammar's situation keeps getting worse regardless who's on the throne and Renn and Valta spoke of riots of lower classes... what do you think will be the potential situation of Orzammar in DA4 and how it'd impact the story? The mines have already been hit during times of Inquisition and even with us helping with the Titan and sending help I don't see it not having an impact on lyrium trade. I wonder if it's going to be a significant plot point in DA, especially if a portion of it focuses on Vint/Qunari war. Inquisition managed to mangle Qunari's own supply of lyrium in Trespasser, but there's no way of saying what did they learn and how much they stocked - and even if they don't have much of their own, Vints will more than likely feel the lyrium drought in their fight against the Qunari. Nevermind that potential lack of lyrium also threatens the South, given that last time it was the Southern mages that pushed the Qunari back and the Qunari have been trying to find a remedy for that ever since. I wonder if this is where Kal Sharok shows up in the plot? Though there's no way of saying if they're processing lyrium or have enough of it to sell... Gotta wonder if Valta/someone similar will make an appearance too? The fact that Descent is optional and Inquisition may not help Orzammar doesn't mean that Valta didn't reach the Titan on her own, especially that even with our help she claims that the Titan basically led to her meeting it. We were obviously there to witness her story/help her get to the place she was supposed to be - so while I don't expect her to show up from the start or for long (given her new god-like powers) she seems to be bound to show up at some point. ___ Also... Walter - isn't it time for you to create a thread about this massive axe I see you grinding every now and then? You obviously want to keep venting about it at the tiniest provocation.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Oct 3, 2018 5:35:12 GMT
The Casteless situation is so sad, horrible, and wrong. Yep - when I played DAO I've found their situation most upsetting of them all. Many groups in Thedas have it bad, but there's some sense of solidarity between them - if not whole groups then in sub-groups. There's somewhere or someone to lean back on in times of need. But Casteless are deprived of even that and oftentimes prey upon one another. Urgh. For things to change though they'd have to change a lot about their traditional caste system, if not cast it away completely. Anyway... given that it's established in Descent that Orzammar's situation keeps getting worse regardless who's on the throne and Renn and Valta spoke of riots of lower classes... what do you think will be the potential situation of Orzammar in DA4 and how it'd impact the story? The mines have already been hit during times of Inquisition and even with us helping with the Titan and sending help I don't see it not having an impact on lyrium trade. I wonder if it's going to be a significant plot point in DA, especially if a portion of it focuses on Vint/Qunari war. Inquisition managed to mangle Qunari's own supply of lyrium in Trespasser, but there's no way of saying what did they learn and how much they stocked - and even if they don't have much of their own, Vints will more than likely feel the lyrium drought in their fight against the Qunari. Nevermind that potential lack of lyrium also threatens the South, given that last time it was the Southern mages that pushed the Qunari back and the Qunari have been trying to find a remedy for that ever since. I wonder if this is where Kal Sharok shows up in the plot? Though there's no way of saying if they're processing lyrium or have enough of it to sell... Gotta wonder if Valta/someone similar will make an appearance too? The fact that Descent is optional and Inquisition may not help Orzammar doesn't mean that Valta didn't reach the Titan on her own, especially that even with our help she claims that the Titan basically led to her meeting it. We were obviously there to witness her story/help her get to the place she was supposed to be - so while I don't expect her to show up from the start or for long (given her new god-like powers) she seems to be bound to show up at some point. I wonder if we're going to see an increase in the tacitly practiced, but officially condemned, practice of slave sacrifice due to a lack of lyrium? Seems likely. I can even imagine having to deal with a situation where Vints need to hold off some Qunari forces and consider blood sacrifice of the soldier slaves (and pows if there are any) to do so. That could be an interesting scenario. Like, if they don't do this, the Qun gains ground. But if they do, they hold the territory. The player has to choose to interfere or not. Like, without a solid lyrium trade, Tevinter will get desperate. And that doesn't bode well.
Also, it would be very interesting to actually see the relations btwn Orzammar and Tevinter being effected by this. They've been *long* standing allies. I think their friendly relationship is going on a few millenia now? So, seeing just how those ties are impacted when Orzammar can no longer provide the main trade good that Tevinter wants from them in the amount they need would be interesting. And how would Orzammar react to Tevinter turning to Kal Sharok? I know Enderin refused to establish normal relations with Kal Sharok b/c they wouldn't bend the knee to the Orzammar throne, but has anything been said about Orzammar/Kal Sharok relations since Bhelen/Harrowmont took over?
Then you can throw in the likelyhood that their populations actually belong to different Titans. Even if they have no idea about any of that (and for all we know Kal Sharok does know about that stuff), it could still have an effect. In fact, if Kal Sharok does know about Titans, it kinda makes Enderin's comments in the DN origin about how they're eschewing tradition by not kneeling pretty ironic.
And if Valta comes back, I hope Renn does, too. His body is missing no matter what at the end, right?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Oct 3, 2018 14:06:36 GMT
And to bring this back to Solas since this is the Solas thread - he probably knows a heck of a lot about dwarves that even they have forgotten (remember the altered Records we come across in Descent?) Do you suppose he might leverage his knowledge of ancient dwarves and titans to interfere with things in a way that might help him bring about his ultimate goal?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2018 16:09:51 GMT
And to bring this back to Solas since this is the Solas thread - he probably knows a heck of a lot about dwarves that even they have forgotten (remember the altered Records we come across in Descent?) Do you suppose he might leverage his knowledge of ancient dwarves and titans to interfere with things in a way that might help him bring about his ultimate goal? I think so, yeah. Particularly if he needs another orb, and the only way to get one is to kill another Titan. Which, given what we know now, is probably just going to make things worse.
I have a lot of theories, but if they're going with a purely villainous direction with him that would be my guess on how he would use such knowledge.
Conversely, he may also be trying to free the Titans from essentially being Tranquilized, which would also involve removing the Veil.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2018 16:51:18 GMT
And to bring this back to Solas since this is the Solas thread - he probably knows a heck of a lot about dwarves that even they have forgotten (remember the altered Records we come across in Descent?) Do you suppose he might leverage his knowledge of ancient dwarves and titans to interfere with things in a way that might help him bring about his ultimate goal? I think so, yeah. Particularly if he needs another orb, and the only way to get one is to kill another Titan. Which, given what we know now, is probably just going to make things worse.
I have a lot of theories, but if they're going with a purely villainous direction with him that would be my guess on how he would use such knowledge.
Conversely, he may also be trying to free the Titans from essentially being Tranquilized, which would also involve removing the Veil. "He needs another orb and the only way to get one is to kill another Titan"? Since when this is a confirmed thing...? Did I miss something? I'm not sure anyone can tell ATM what orbs are, where they originate from and how they work... in fact I'd say we do know that Solas mourns not the original orb but its content (after Inky asks if it can be glued together and he responds that it will not return what matters) and that it gathered this content by soaking the Fade for millennia. It's possible that there could exist ways to charge it faster or make it do some other things that would help the Dread Wolf realize his plans - I'm just not sure if it requires a Titan or killing it, or whether it'll accomplish much, given that both Solas and Titans (and the world) now aren't what they used to be. And to bring this back to Solas since this is the Solas thread - he probably knows a heck of a lot about dwarves that even they have forgotten (remember the altered Records we come across in Descent?) Do you suppose he might leverage his knowledge of ancient dwarves and titans to interfere with things in a way that might help him bring about his ultimate goal? If it didn't seem to work with most of the Dalish he approached (given his bitterness) I'm not sure it will work with the dwarves, which can be even more set in their ways and protective of dwarven traditions. More than likely most dwarvs would dismiss his revelation as a bunch of hooey - even open-minded Valta has a hard time dealing with implications of our discoveries. Which makes me wonder if this is where Valta comes in. Dunno why, but at times she sort of struck me as the dwarven equivalent of Solas - a lone person searching for deep, forgotten mysteries and probably tasked with changing things by bringing them back in some ways (including ones that may not be subtle or expected).
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Post by close2myheart on Oct 4, 2018 0:56:38 GMT
*Snerks*.. "YOU LIKE THE WRONG THING" 😂 Trolololo... now, isn't that such a FAMILIAR stance I've red SOMEWHERE? [Sarcasm] When u can't practice 'in moderation' I guess things like that will continue to happen, sadly
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 4, 2018 21:13:57 GMT
___ Also... Walter - isn't it time for you to create a thread about this massive axe I see you grinding every now and then? You obviously want to keep venting about it at the tiniest provocation."An axe to grind"? Do I really come off like that? Well, I haven't been able to get a decent night's sleep in ages, work has been stressing me out, among many other things, so sorry about that. Don't have time to properly explain that particular position right now, maybe later. Incidentally, I did make a thread, but my wording.... needed work .
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Post by Elessara on Oct 4, 2018 23:53:21 GMT
I would very much love to see the elves have their own empire but I don't particularly want to replace "Human Noble on top of the food chain" with just someone else at the top. Which is not to say that I think humans should stay there - I would prefer more equality among all races - but I don't think the nobles of Elvhenan were any better (or worse) than the human nobles of current Thedas. And to clarify that statement, I mean there were likely some good/nice nobles, some bad/awful nobles, and the most were in between. Getting rid of nobles entirely would be nice but I don't think Thedas is quite ready to get rid of their current societal structure. And I'm definitely NOT advocating the Qun. What I would also really love to see is the dwarf society get rid of the Casteless. And I don't mean by wiping them out, I mean by getting rid of the entire idea of being Casteless. Ugh... just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in...
When Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Brent Knowles and others initially constructed Dragon Age, they created it to be a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. Elves, magic, dragons and the rest, that's all just metaphorical window dressing; they wanted a world that explored how people would actually react in such a world, and not necessarily how we would like them to. That means confronting ugly truths about human nature, rather than burying our heads in beautiful lies. You can't fight evil by pretending it doesn't exist, or simply dismiss the the complex histories of other peoples' existences simply because you disagree with them.
"I see enough negativity in real life, fantasy should be uplifting and comforting!"
Some fantasies should be comforting and uplifting, but others need the honesty of fully exploring their respective subject matters. Seriously, you knew coming in that the DA franchise had dark and uncomfortable elements coming in. If you don't like said darkness, why not just move on to another, more idealistic story, rather than insisting DA be twisted into the kind of adolescent wish fulfillment it was originally meant to subvert?
"Even if it start dark, the new writers can make it lighter! Even more, they have a moral obligation to do so!"
Says who? This isn't some "the depiction of triggering content also endorses it" nonsense, is it? How do you expect to show characters triumphing over various prejudices if said attitudes never existed in the first place? I've seen bigots use inclusive media where no one faces discrimination of any kind as "proof" that such attitudes are over, and that marginalized people should just get over it . Now, given some of Patrick Weekes comments it's possible you might get your wish, if he and crew decide to betray DA's legacy, dumb down the franchise, and gut it's soul.
But I hope not.
"You're just a wannabe Edgelord that wants everything to be GRIMDARK!"
Nice try, but no. My stance has less to do with liking "dark" stories, than wishing Dragon Age remains faithful to the creators' original vision. Honestly, so called "mature re imaginings" like Batman V Superman, a movie that strips away all the fun of superheroes, strikes me as boring and pretentious. Likewise, I find darkfics of Harry Potter, Steven Universe, or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic to be equally ridiculous. My feeling is that if you want to deconstruct something, you're better off making your own version, instead of changing the original to fit your own personal bias. Which incidentally, is exactly what Bioware did when they made DA as a Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate. I like both light and dark stories, but mostly I like ones that have their own unique identity. Making Thedas and it's characters lighter and more idealistic might make some good stories, but it WOULDN'T be Dragon Age.
I've been away for a couple days so I haven't seen this until now but .... *blinks* What are you smoking? And whatever it is, please don't share. It seems to make you delusional. Where did I ever say any of the things in your post? I've never said Dragon Age should be uplifting, although I do think that if everything is all darkness, death, and despair all the time then what the hell is even the point. There needs to be a balance. Seriously, would DAO have been at all good if at the end, no matter what you did, the darkspawn still won? I'm sure some people would have liked it but then some people also liked the ME3 ending. I've never said the writers have a "moral obligation" to make the games lighter. What an idiotic thing to say anyway. They don't have a moral obligation to do anything, not even to make another game. I've never called you a wannabe edgelord who wants everything grimdark. I mean, I remember seeing your name on these forums so I've likely read your posts and possibly responded to some of them but I've never called anyone an edgelord, wannabe or otherwise. At least I don't remember doing so. Wanting to see more equality among the races doesn't mean I think they should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe I should have said I wanted to see a more equal balance of power. I never said I thought they should all be at peace or happiness. And I also said that I didn't think Thedas was ready to get rid of its current societal structure. I may not like how elves are treated and I may not like how the Casteless are treated but overcoming those stereotypes in the game is part of the satisfaction of playing the game. So what if I would like to see the dwarven kingdom become more egalitarian? And if it doesn't happen I'm not going to wail, tear my hair out, gnash my teeth, or stomp my feet and have a temper tantrum. I'm also not saying that such a thing should just happen at the drop of a hat. I don't want the writers to suddenly go, "And lo, the dwarven people did have an epiphany and their hearts changed and they welcomed their brethren with open arms and all was joyful in the dwarven kingdom." That would be stupid and completely out of character. But assuming we get more games than just DA4, I would expect society to change gradually over time. It's just natural; no society stays the same forever. Also that would be really boring. Maybe things will change for the "better" or maybe not but they'll still change. Edit to add: I also wouldn't expect most changes to any of the current societal structures in Thedas to come about peacefully. This *is* Dragon Age. Also, most massive change in the real world don't come about peacefully either. If the Casteless ever do cease to exist then it would probably be the result of a civil war in Orzammar - and I'm ok with that.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 5, 2018 21:04:13 GMT
Ugh... just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in...
When Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Brent Knowles and others initially constructed Dragon Age, they created it to be a dark, adult fantasy with complex characters and no easy answers. Elves, magic, dragons and the rest, that's all just metaphorical window dressing; they wanted a world that explored how people would actually react in such a world, and not necessarily how we would like them to. That means confronting ugly truths about human nature, rather than burying our heads in beautiful lies. You can't fight evil by pretending it doesn't exist, or simply dismiss the the complex histories of other peoples' existences simply because you disagree with them.
"I see enough negativity in real life, fantasy should be uplifting and comforting!"
Some fantasies should be comforting and uplifting, but others need the honesty of fully exploring their respective subject matters. Seriously, you knew coming in that the DA franchise had dark and uncomfortable elements coming in. If you don't like said darkness, why not just move on to another, more idealistic story, rather than insisting DA be twisted into the kind of adolescent wish fulfillment it was originally meant to subvert?
"Even if it start dark, the new writers can make it lighter! Even more, they have a moral obligation to do so!"
Says who? This isn't some "the depiction of triggering content also endorses it" nonsense, is it? How do you expect to show characters triumphing over various prejudices if said attitudes never existed in the first place? I've seen bigots use inclusive media where no one faces discrimination of any kind as "proof" that such attitudes are over, and that marginalized people should just get over it . Now, given some of Patrick Weekes comments it's possible you might get your wish, if he and crew decide to betray DA's legacy, dumb down the franchise, and gut it's soul.
But I hope not.
"You're just a wannabe Edgelord that wants everything to be GRIMDARK!"
Nice try, but no. My stance has less to do with liking "dark" stories, than wishing Dragon Age remains faithful to the creators' original vision. Honestly, so called "mature re imaginings" like Batman V Superman, a movie that strips away all the fun of superheroes, strikes me as boring and pretentious. Likewise, I find darkfics of Harry Potter, Steven Universe, or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic to be equally ridiculous. My feeling is that if you want to deconstruct something, you're better off making your own version, instead of changing the original to fit your own personal bias. Which incidentally, is exactly what Bioware did when they made DA as a Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate. I like both light and dark stories, but mostly I like ones that have their own unique identity. Making Thedas and it's characters lighter and more idealistic might make some good stories, but it WOULDN'T be Dragon Age.
I've been away for a couple days so I haven't seen this until now but ....
*blinks* What are you smoking? And whatever it is, please don't share. It seems to make you delusional.
Where did I ever say any of the things in your post?
I've never said Dragon Age should be uplifting, although I do think that if everything is all darkness, death, and despair all the time then what the hell is even the point. There needs to be a balance. Seriously, would DAO have been at all good if at the end, no matter what you did, the darkspawn still won? I'm sure some people would have liked it but then some people also liked the ME3 ending.
I've never said the writers have a "moral obligation" to make the games lighter. What an idiotic thing to say anyway. They don't have a moral obligation to do anything, not even to make another game.
I've never called you a wannabe edgelord who wants everything grimdark. I mean, I remember seeing your name on these forums so I've likely read your posts and possibly responded to some of them but I've never called anyone an edgelord, wannabe or otherwise. At least I don't remember doing so.
Wanting to see more equality among the races doesn't mean I think they should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe I should have said I wanted to see a more equal balance of power. I never said I thought they should all be at peace or happiness. And I also said that I didn't think Thedas was ready to get rid of its current societal structure. I may not like how elves are treated and I may not like how the Casteless are treated but overcoming those stereotypes in the game is part of the satisfaction of playing the game.
So what if I would like to see the dwarven kingdom become more egalitarian? And if it doesn't happen I'm not going to wail, tear my hair out, gnash my teeth, or stomp my feet and have a temper tantrum. I'm also not saying that such a thing should just happen at the drop of a hat. I don't want the writers to suddenly go, "And lo, the dwarven people did have an epiphany and their hearts changed and they welcomed their brethren with open arms and all was joyful in the dwarven kingdom." That would be stupid and completely out of character. But assuming we get more games than just DA4, I would expect society to change gradually over time. It's just natural; no society stays the same forever. Also that would be really boring. Maybe things will change for the "better" or maybe not but they'll still change.
Edit to add: I also wouldn't expect most changes to any of the current societal structures in Thedas to come about peacefully. This *is* Dragon Age. Also, most massive change in the real world don't come about peacefully either. If the Casteless ever do cease to exist then it would probably be the result of a civil war in Orzammar - and I'm ok with that.
*Deep breath*
My apologies. I stand by the core of what I wrote, but in hindsight, I did not intend to come off so confrontational. My feelings were not so much directed at you or anyone in particular, but a (to me, at least) broader trend to make Dragon Age and other dark fantasies lighter and more appealing to the masses. It's hard to put into words... maybe it's a more personal preference on the scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism. There are times I *d*o want more positivity and hope, but there's always parts of my brain were it feels... wrong. Like I'm being talked down to, lied to. I want to believe so bad it hurts, but just... can't.
I did not mean to imply you personally said or were going to say any of my statements; i.e. "fantasy should be uplifting", "moral obligation", or "wanabe Edgelord". Others have used such arguments in the past and I guess that, fearing they would be used again, I tried preemptively countering them. In my college days a friend impressed upon me the importance of anticipating divergent ideas in any debate. That's part of it, but if I'm being honest there's also pangs of insecurity.
Like I said before, this week has been quite stressful. None of that is your fault, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking or dumping on you guys. Lately I've been trying to improve, talk to people, seek professional help, try new medications. It's... been an adjustment. Sorry for going all Emo there, hopefully we can get back to talking about what we actually like about DA.
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Post by Elessara on Oct 5, 2018 21:31:11 GMT
I've been away for a couple days so I haven't seen this until now but ....
*blinks* What are you smoking? And whatever it is, please don't share. It seems to make you delusional.
Where did I ever say any of the things in your post?
I've never said Dragon Age should be uplifting, although I do think that if everything is all darkness, death, and despair all the time then what the hell is even the point. There needs to be a balance. Seriously, would DAO have been at all good if at the end, no matter what you did, the darkspawn still won? I'm sure some people would have liked it but then some people also liked the ME3 ending.
I've never said the writers have a "moral obligation" to make the games lighter. What an idiotic thing to say anyway. They don't have a moral obligation to do anything, not even to make another game.
I've never called you a wannabe edgelord who wants everything grimdark. I mean, I remember seeing your name on these forums so I've likely read your posts and possibly responded to some of them but I've never called anyone an edgelord, wannabe or otherwise. At least I don't remember doing so.
Wanting to see more equality among the races doesn't mean I think they should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe I should have said I wanted to see a more equal balance of power. I never said I thought they should all be at peace or happiness. And I also said that I didn't think Thedas was ready to get rid of its current societal structure. I may not like how elves are treated and I may not like how the Casteless are treated but overcoming those stereotypes in the game is part of the satisfaction of playing the game.
So what if I would like to see the dwarven kingdom become more egalitarian? And if it doesn't happen I'm not going to wail, tear my hair out, gnash my teeth, or stomp my feet and have a temper tantrum. I'm also not saying that such a thing should just happen at the drop of a hat. I don't want the writers to suddenly go, "And lo, the dwarven people did have an epiphany and their hearts changed and they welcomed their brethren with open arms and all was joyful in the dwarven kingdom." That would be stupid and completely out of character. But assuming we get more games than just DA4, I would expect society to change gradually over time. It's just natural; no society stays the same forever. Also that would be really boring. Maybe things will change for the "better" or maybe not but they'll still change.
Edit to add: I also wouldn't expect most changes to any of the current societal structures in Thedas to come about peacefully. This *is* Dragon Age. Also, most massive change in the real world don't come about peacefully either. If the Casteless ever do cease to exist then it would probably be the result of a civil war in Orzammar - and I'm ok with that.
*Deep breath*
My apologies. I stand by the core of what I wrote, but in hindsight, I did not intend to come off so confrontational. My feelings were not so much directed at you or anyone in particular, but a (to me, at least) broader trend to make Dragon Age and other dark fantasies lighter and more appealing to the masses. It's hard to put into words... maybe it's a more personal preference on the scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism. There are times I *d*o want more positivity and hope, but there's always parts of my brain were it feels... wrong. Like I'm being talked down to, lied to. I want to believe so bad it hurts, but just... can't.
I did not mean to imply you personally said or were going to say any of my statements; i.e. "fantasy should be uplifting", "moral obligation", or "wanabe Edgelord". Others have used such arguments in the past and I guess that, fearing they would be used again, I tried preemptively countering them. In my college days a friend impressed upon me the importance of anticipating divergent ideas in any debate. That's part of it, but if I'm being honest there's also pangs of insecurity.
Like I said before, this week has been quite stressful. None of that is your fault, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was attacking or dumping on you guys. Lately I've been trying to improve, talk to people, seek professional help, try new medications. It's... been an adjustment. Sorry for going all Emo there, hopefully we can get back to talking about what we actually like about DA.
No worries, sorry you've been having a rough time. I hope things start to go better for you. For the most part I tend to prefer "happy ever afters" however I also know that just isn't Dragon Age. The protagonists might win a battle or accomplish their goal but something else is going to pop up. And I am ok with that. I love Dragon Age, it's my favorite game setting. If I couldn't take the dark parts I wouldn't love it. But I'm also of the mind there needs to be a balance. The heroes do need to win sometimes, there needs to be moments of hope to balance out the darkness. Also, when stories get to "happy ever after" that's usually it, there's nothing left for the story so it ends and I don't want Dragon Age to end. But I also wouldn't call Dragon Age seriously "dark" ... it's more "realistic". Obviously I don't mean the elves, dwarves, magic, etc. but more in the "you can't save everyone" and "shit happens, now deal with it" kind of way. So I think we're honestly on the same page when it comes to Dragon Age. Although that doesn't stop me from hoping for a resolution between Lavellan and Solas that I can find acceptable that doesn't involve either of them dying. ;D Edit: So I wrote this post and 6 hours later for some reason I'm thinking about DAO and the Deep Roads ... and then I remember Hespith. So, ok that shit was DARK. And creepy. I wouldn't change it though b/c like I said, I'm ok with the dark aspects of Dragon Age. Also, not sure why I started thinking about Hespith. I try not to. That ranks right up there with some of the creepiest and just personally revolting things I've seen in games. Still wouldn't change it - I just try not to think about it too often heh.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 7, 2018 21:05:58 GMT
Here's something lighter to speculate about... okay, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a topic touched here or somewhere else, given the dearth of any new info to digest, so let's refresh it a little.
What do you think is Solas relationship with nature? Would animals like him and vice versa?
Because for me, his whole Fade schtick still screams 'environmentalist!' and 'nature lover!' and all that, and that's regardless of clear and strong ties of elven race (including ancient elven one) to nature or Solas's love of color green and entire hobo/hipster/living-in-the wilderness vibe. In Thedas spirits are parts of nature and he clearly cares about those - but I can see him having a soft spot for animals too, or for animals to being OK in his presence.
There's commentary on wolves from Solas (banter with Cole in Hinterlands) but it could be argued that it almost doesn't matter given that... well... WOLVES. He has commens on liking forests and groves, but it may also be because they're quiet and secluded. But we also know that he doesn't mind giant spiders - according to him they let live anybody who doesn't bother them and leaves them some food. He doesn't seem to be sporting any wounds made by giant spider fangs, so that approach seems to have been be working during his solo journeys. Other animals also didn't seem to bother him and that's despite travelling solo for a year after waking up weakened in a very different world compared to what he knew.
We also know that he comments on nugs living in Deep Roads underneath Crestwood - and that he's noticeably upset at Inquisitor if he/she kills them.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Oct 7, 2018 21:24:51 GMT
Hello! I know I've been absent for long, but I need your help! I can't find the pics of Cassandra and Aveline arm wrestling, and I neeeeeeeed them! Please, if anyone finds them, tag me and post them here!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 7, 2018 21:52:59 GMT
Hello! I know I've been absent for long, but I need your help! I can't find the pics of Cassandra and Aveline arm wrestling, and I neeeeeeeed them! Please, if anyone finds them, tag me and post them here!
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2018 11:27:51 GMT
Here's something lighter to speculate about... okay, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a topic touched here or somewhere else, given the dearth of any new info to digest, so let's refresh it a little. What do you think is Solas relationship with nature? Would animals like him and vice versa? Because for me, his whole Fade schtick still screams 'environmentalist!' and 'nature lover!' and all that, and that's regardless of clear and strong ties of elven race (including ancient elven one) to nature or Solas's love of color green and entire hobo/hipster/living-in-the wilderness vibe. In Thedas spirits are parts of nature and he clearly cares about those - but I can see him having a soft spot for animals too, or for animals to being OK in his presence. There's commentary on wolves from Solas (banter with Cole in Hinterlands) but it could be argued that it almost doesn't matter given that... well... WOLVES. He has commens on liking forests and groves, but it may also be because they're quiet and secluded. But we also know that he doesn't mind giant spiders - according to him they let live anybody who doesn't bother them and leaves them some food. He doesn't seem to be sporting any wounds made by giant spider fangs, so that approach seems to have been be working during his solo journeys. Other animals also didn't seem to bother him and that's despite travelling solo for a year after waking up weakened in a very different world compared to what he knew. We also know that he comments on nugs living in Deep Roads underneath Crestwood - and that he's noticeably upset at Inquisitor if he/she kills them. The Fade isn't nature. It is another world. Solas' obsession with it only reinforces the fact that he doesn't care about the physical world. Well, not the modern one at least.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 17, 2018 14:53:35 GMT
Here's something lighter to speculate about... okay, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a topic touched here or somewhere else, given the dearth of any new info to digest, so let's refresh it a little. What do you think is Solas relationship with nature? Would animals like him and vice versa? Because for me, his whole Fade schtick still screams 'environmentalist!' and 'nature lover!' and all that, and that's regardless of clear and strong ties of elven race (including ancient elven one) to nature or Solas's love of color green and entire hobo/hipster/living-in-the wilderness vibe. In Thedas spirits are parts of nature and he clearly cares about those - but I can see him having a soft spot for animals too, or for animals to being OK in his presence. There's commentary on wolves from Solas (banter with Cole in Hinterlands) but it could be argued that it almost doesn't matter given that... well... WOLVES. He has commens on liking forests and groves, but it may also be because they're quiet and secluded. But we also know that he doesn't mind giant spiders - according to him they let live anybody who doesn't bother them and leaves them some food. He doesn't seem to be sporting any wounds made by giant spider fangs, so that approach seems to have been be working during his solo journeys. Other animals also didn't seem to bother him and that's despite travelling solo for a year after waking up weakened in a very different world compared to what he knew. We also know that he comments on nugs living in Deep Roads underneath Crestwood - and that he's noticeably upset at Inquisitor if he/she kills them. The Fade isn't nature. It is another world. Solas' obsession with it only reinforces the fact that he doesn't care about the physical world. Well, not the modern one at least. ...'modern physical world? What makes 'modern physical world' different from the old one - and if it's the Fade, then why are you saying that it's not part of nature? And what makes you claim that Fade isn't nature? We know enough since Trespasser to say that it pretty much is - and we know it from sources different than Solas (it's all over Vir Dirthara). The Fade appears to be 'another world' now because the Veil pushed most of it away. Spirit!Cole (who figured out the truth as first in Vir Dirthara) calls the Veil 'fabricated and fake' and is overwhelmed with joy to find out that - as a spirit - he isn't unnatural or broken, but how he should be. Even in vanilla game Cole states that the Fade is still there but 'structured' by the Veil - and tells us that Fade and its denizens cannot exist without minds of physical beings. There are clues all over the series to conclude that both Fade and Thedas are intrinsically linked (cutting away from he Fade turns people into Tranquil, killing Dreamer in the Fade kills them IRL, nevermind magic simply affecting physical world on the most basic level, etc.). So no - I don't think the claim that the Fade is not nature can really be substantiated. At this point I can only suspect that you say so because you think that 'nature' (or physical, I guess) can only be what we - on Earth - call natural. But Thedas isn't our world and so far all signs on Thedosian heaven and earth point to magic being part of its nature. It's the modern, Veiled Thedas that appears to be an artificial construct.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 17, 2018 22:48:41 GMT
A tiny bone bit has been thrown by Mr. Weekes. I have to wonder if Weekes means that it 'tipped him too far over' in a sense that it gave too much away (sheesh, in that case, I have to wonder what it was supposed to be like ) or because they wanted to create a level of uncertainty about his commitment to the relationship - which having an onscreen sex scene could be seen as cementing it in the minds of many.
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Post by close2myheart on Oct 17, 2018 23:48:08 GMT
A tiny bone bit has been thrown by Mr. Weekes. I have to wonder if Weekes means that it 'tipped him too far over' in a sense that it gave too much away (sheesh, in that case, I have to wonder what it was supposed to be like ) or because they wanted to create a level of uncertainty about his commitment to the relationship - which having an onscreen sex scene could be seen as cementing it in the minds of many. Dundududuuunnn... my take on this : Either way he goes, he would end up the Betrayer. Either he betrays his people or he betrays her. Even with an Inquisitor whom he befriended, he's having a difficult time in staying 'detached' to the group. He's trying his best not to fall in love, but his feelings sorta says 'LoL Nope' and for once, he has little to no control over it. He's planning to stop the relationship from the get go but the pull of his emotions almost made him chose her above his people. As it is, he's already experiencing an ugly inner struggle of 'tug-of-war' between his objective and goals (and the fate of his people) vs his love for Lavellan (that also extends to her people's right to exist) Sleeping with Lavellan will only hurt her even more and would crush him even deeper because he KNOWS that he can never put his desires above the survival of his people. No matter how pure he lives her. He's already hurting from his guilt, his despair over having to give up the one woman he loves and the gripping realization that he caused her pain and be the one who destroys her world. Cole aint kidding when he said that Solas is Sad. I'm like, 'sad' is just a monumental understatement for this Wolf in Lamb's Wool clothing XP .. word of note : have to admit that I drag MBTI into this (sorry) And I tend to peg Solas as INTJ. INTJ and INFJ (my Lavellan) shares the same dominant function. Which is why I really love this egghead even not romancing him. It's kinda sad when you finally found the one who finally understands you but ended up in opposing sides. Especially when you really don't hate each other
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 18, 2018 0:18:13 GMT
A tiny bone bit has been thrown by Mr. Weekes. I have to wonder if Weekes means that it 'tipped him too far over' in a sense that it gave too much away (sheesh, in that case, I have to wonder what it was supposed to be like ) or because they wanted to create a level of uncertainty about his commitment to the relationship - which having an onscreen sex scene could be seen as cementing it in the minds of many. Dundududuuunnn... my take on this : Either way he goes, he would end up the Betrayer. Either he betrays his people or he betrays her. Even with an Inquisitor whom he befriended, he's having a difficult time in staying 'detached' to the group. He's trying his best not to fall in love, but his feelings sorta says 'LoL Nope' and for once, he has little to no control over it. He's planning to stop the relationship from the get go but the pull of his emotions almost made him chose her above his people. As it is, he's already experiencing an ugly inner struggle of 'tug-of-war' between his objective and goals (and the fate of his people) vs his love for Lavellan (that also extends to her people's right to exist) Sleeping with Lavellan will only hurt her even more and would crush him even deeper because he KNOWS that he can never put his desires above the survival of his people. No matter how pure he lives her. He's already hurting from his guilt, his despair over having to give up the one woman he loves and the gripping realization that he caused her pain and be the one who destroys her world. Cole aint kidding when he said that Solas is Sad. I'm like, 'sad' is just a monumental understatement for this Wolf in Lamb's Wool clothing XP .. word of note : have to admit that I drag MBTI into this (sorry) And I tend to peg Solas as INTJ. INTJ and INFJ (my Lavellan) shares the same dominant function. Which is why I really love this egghead even not romancing him. It's kinda sad when you finally found the one who finally understands you but ended up in opposing sides. Especially when you really don't hate each other The discussion here is about 'no onscreen sex scene' and not 'no sex' Weekes has already stated a couple of times that this issue is meant to be ambiguous and thus people can headcanon whether the relationship went there or not, but nothing is officially confirmed in one way or another (even if we speculate to death about it, as we tend to do ). If you think that your Lavellan is meant to have this kind of relationship with Solas - cool! There's enough wiggle room there to accommodate not just our different outlooks on some things in this romance/friendship, but that of our individual characters. That way we can even have two or more playthroughs with Lavellans with a somewhat different relationship with Solas if we wish to. I think that this is also where the matters of consent come into play and why it was a factor in leaving things ambiguous - for some (characters or players) him being intimate with Lavellan while not entirely honest with her would be a dealbreaker... and for some, it won't, for whatever reasons. Plus, even if we agree that Solas's internal conflict and relationship with Lavellan is an epitome of sad and he tries his best not to hurt Lavellan further, there are people who simply want to crank up the drama to 11
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