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Post by midnight tea on Dec 25, 2019 21:38:52 GMT
Happy Solstice folks!
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Post by Iddy on Dec 27, 2019 14:47:13 GMT
I'm reading this interview where PW says that some of Solas' lines were in "Hallelujah cadence" and I haven't the faintest clue what that means.
Could someone explain it to me in layman's terms?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 27, 2019 16:37:33 GMT
I'm reading this interview where PW says that some of Solas' lines were in "Hallelujah cadence" and I haven't the faintest clue what that means. Could someone explain it to me in layman's terms? Have you ever heard Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah? There are lots of covers of it. Anyway, it's a pretty famous song. Patrick Weekes listened to it a lot while they were writing Solas, and they decided to have Solas speak sometimes to the cadence, or beat, of Hallelujah. Because Weekes has a degree in English and an interest in poetry, and Leonard Cohen was a poet, they both know that the Hallelujah cadence is one that mimics the human heart beat, and so stuff written in it can actually have a deep emotional impact on the person reading or hearing it. If you're interested to see which passages Solas uses the Hallelujah cadence for, here's a great analysis by my friend, DrunkDalish: www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2017/08/sing-song-of-solas-solas-dialogue-and.htmlAnd here is one of k d lang's covers of Hallelujah; her version is the one Patrick Weekes listened to the most while they were writing Solas. Edits: About 50% of the time, I forget that Patrick Weekes uses they/them now, so I corrected myself.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 27, 2019 16:48:16 GMT
I'm reading this interview where PW says that some of Solas' lines were in "Hallelujah cadence" and I haven't the faintest clue what that means. Could someone explain it to me in layman's terms? Have you ever heard Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah? There are lots of covers of it. Anyway, it's a pretty famous song. Patrick Weekes listened to it a lot while he was writing Solas, and he decided to have Solas speak sometimes to the cadence, or beat, of Hallelujah. Because Weekes has a degree in English and an interest in poetry, and Leonard Cohen was a poet, they both know that the Hallelujah cadence is one that mimics the human heart beat, and so stuff written in it can actually have a deep emotional impact on the person reading or hearing it. If you're interested to see which passages Solas uses the Hallelujah cadence for, here's a great analysis by my friend, DrunkDalish: www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2017/08/sing-song-of-solas-solas-dialogue-and.htmlAnd here is one of k d lang's covers of Hallelujah; her version is the one Patrick Weekes listened to the most while he was writing Solas. And now I'm picturing Solas singing Hallelujah 
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 27, 2019 16:52:29 GMT
And now I'm picturing Solas singing Hallelujah  I definitely haven't sung all the DAI Hallelujah passages to myself... 
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Post by Iddy on Dec 28, 2019 4:56:02 GMT
I find it baffling when people say that Solas "talks down to Lavellan", is condescending and so on.
I don't remember a single instance where he implies she is inferior in any way.
At worst, he is rude in the first conversatiin about elven culture because his previous encounters with Dalish elves went poorly.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 28, 2019 15:42:44 GMT
Maybe he is more like that if your Inquisitor has a low approval rating with him? I agree that he can be quite rude about the Dalish at first and throughout the game, really, but I just imagined it started to become an in-joke between him and my Lavellan as their relationship grew. He does continue to be disparaging about the Dalish - even in the balcony scene he marvels that the Dalish managed to raise someone with a spirit like Lavellan's, for example. And in the final break up scene, if you pick the sad option after he reveals the true meaning of the vallaslin, he will reaffirm that sentiment by saying "Don’t say that. For all they got wrong, the Dalish did one thing right. They made you." So, by the end of the game, he is still an ass about the Dalish. Some people might react to that a bit more strongly than others.  |
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Post by xerrai on Dec 28, 2019 20:35:16 GMT
I find it baffling when people say that Solas "talks down to Lavellan", is condescending and so on. I don't remember a single instance where he implies she is inferior in any way. At worst, he is rude in the first conversatiin about elven culture because his previous encounters with Dalish elves went poorly. Well when Solas feels like someone is being presumptuous on ancient elvhen culture and the nature of spirits (as he did initially with Dorian) he does tend to get a bit derisive. Not that I blame him. Kinda hard to not be a bit rue when people go around claiming to know more about ancient elvhen culture than someone who actually lived in that time. Same goes for when people try to lump him into a category just because he has pointy ears or wields a staff. But I think the one of the biggest issues they may have with Solas is when he used the term "Da'len" when talking to Lavellan in one of thier early Haven conversations. The literal translation for that is 'small child', so it is easy to see why some people think he was talking down to her. Even I did when I first heard it. Although in that particular case, I think it should be noted Lavellan deliberately called him "hahren" while asking him his advice immediately prior to that response. So it can be argued that it was less an old man/child dynamic and was instead more of an elder/younger (less experienced) dynamic that was initiated by Lavellan. Still, easy to see why some would think that. If nothing else though he does grow to respect people more the more he gets to know and get along with them.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 28, 2019 20:48:41 GMT
I find it baffling when people say that Solas "talks down to Lavellan", is condescending and so on. I don't remember a single instance where he implies she is inferior in any way. At worst, he is rude in the first conversatiin about elven culture because his previous encounters with Dalish elves went poorly. Well when Solas feels like someone is being presumptuous on ancient elvhen culture and the nature of spirits (as he did initially with Dorian) he does tend to get a bit derisive. Not that I blame him. Kinda hard to not be a bit rue when people go around claiming to know more about ancient elvhen culture than someone who actually lived in that time. Same goes for when people try to lump him into a category just because he has pointy ears or wields a staff. But I think the one of the biggest issues they may have with Solas is when he used the term "Da'len" when talking to Lavellan in one of thier early Haven conversations. The literal translation for that is 'small child', so it is easy to see why some people think he was talking down to her. Even I did when I first heard it. Although in that particular case, I think it should be noted Lavellan deliberately called him "hahren" while asking him his advice immediately prior to that response. So it can be argued that it was less an old man/child dynamic and was instead more of an elder/younger (less experienced) dynamic that was initiated by Lavellan. Still, easy to see why some would think that. If nothing else though he does grow to respect people more the more he gets to know and get along with them. I thought nothing of it because I remember my Warden being called "da'len" by all older members of the clan. It's just elven tradition. |
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 28, 2019 21:34:06 GMT
He hesitates before saying "da'len," too - as if he's wondering whether it's appropriate or not. There's an ellipsis before it, anyway, which conventionally indicates a pause.
Solas: Remember, I have walked the memories of the Fade. I have seen the history the Dalish imitate.
Inquisitor: Ir abelas, Hahren. If the Dalish have done you a disservice, I would make that right. What course would you set for them that is better than what they know now?
Solas: (Sighs.) You are right, of course. The fault is mine, for expecting what the Dalish could never truly accomplish. Ir abelas… da’len. If I can offer any understanding, you have but to ask.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 28, 2019 23:43:55 GMT
He hesitates before saying "da'len," too - as if he's wondering whether it's appropriate or not. There's an ellipsis before it, anyway, which conventionally indicates a pause. Solas: Remember, I have walked the memories of the Fade. I have seen the history the Dalish imitate. Inquisitor: Ir abelas, Hahren. If the Dalish have done you a disservice, I would make that right. What course would you set for them that is better than what they know now? Solas: (Sighs.) You are right, of course. The fault is mine, for expecting what the Dalish could never truly accomplish. Ir abelas… da’len. If I can offer any understanding, you have but to ask. For me it seemed it was more a matter of Lavellan recognizing Solas as someone with knowledge/experience and willing to learn, while Solas agred to sharing that knowledge with them. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with age or thinking less of them. Anyway, we do know from Trespasser that Solas's desire is to share knowledge he possesses with people and Lavellan may be one of few in recent memory that were curious, respectful and willing to listen. So I think Solas may have been a bit less prickly about the Dalish or, well, anyone really, if more people were just willing to listen and learn - if not from himself then from the Fade. He's pretty vocal about the Fade being open to anyone with smarts an will to explore it via dreams and has oftentimes expressed frustration not with people being one or other thing, but being incurious, stuck in their ways, afraid to act or complacent. I still maintain that a lot of his bitterness stems from not being heeded or not meeting many who'd be willing to listen to him, rather than 'notelfiness', especially how quickly he can warm up to Inquisitor of any race who is kind to him and curious about what he has to say. IMO Lavellan being respectful and Solas willing to share his knowledge seems to be a first significant chip in his defensive walls.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 28, 2019 23:59:21 GMT
He hesitates before saying "da'len," too - as if he's wondering whether it's appropriate or not. There's an ellipsis before it, anyway, which conventionally indicates a pause. Solas: Remember, I have walked the memories of the Fade. I have seen the history the Dalish imitate. Inquisitor: Ir abelas, Hahren. If the Dalish have done you a disservice, I would make that right. What course would you set for them that is better than what they know now? Solas: (Sighs.) You are right, of course. The fault is mine, for expecting what the Dalish could never truly accomplish. Ir abelas… da’len. If I can offer any understanding, you have but to ask. Nice catch!
Makes me wonder if Solas' pause might have also been him trying to recall the correct Dalish term, because despite them using Elvish words, they're completely recontextualised from how the Ancient Elves might have used them?
(Like someone thinking you meant goats rather than children because you used the word "kids")
The term "Keeper" especially seems far less friendly, now we know the Ancient Elves practiced slavery.
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Post by Iddy on Jan 15, 2020 15:52:17 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2020 15:55:01 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it. And he can’t reveal the truth since that outs him as the devil of their religion which won’t go well for many. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 15, 2020 19:29:12 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it. But isn't the same true for the Inquisition? He's saved the Herald and aided in critical time, but without making outrageous or unbelievable claims, or without his claims being unfounded or proven to be accurate at some point in time. I don't think it's right to assume that Solas walked into the Dalish camp and began making claims that he's later tried to explain or justify only with "I saw it in the Fade".
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Post by Iddy on Jan 15, 2020 21:15:58 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it. But isn't the same true for the Inquisition? He's saved the Herald and aided in critical time, but without making outrageous or unbelievable claims, or without his claims being unfounded or proven to be accurate at some point in time. I don't think it's right to assume that Solas walked into the Dalish camp and began making claims that he's later tried to explain or justify only with "I saw it in the Fade". I'm sure he would introduce himself first. But making claims and justifying it only with "I saw it in the Fade" is how he went about revealing the vallaslin's origin. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 15, 2020 23:28:56 GMT
But isn't the same true for the Inquisition? He's saved the Herald and aided in critical time, but without making outrageous or unbelievable claims, or without his claims being unfounded or proven to be accurate at some point in time. I don't think it's right to assume that Solas walked into the Dalish camp and began making claims that he's later tried to explain or justify only with "I saw it in the Fade". I'm sure he would introduce himself first. But making claims and justifying it only with "I saw it in the Fade" is how he went about revealing the vallaslin's origin. But at the time the vallaslin origin was revealed the Inquisitor has built enough trust and rapport with Solas for "I saw it in the Fade" to not just be treated as an offhand explanation with no validity. At that time Solas has already revealed many things that he 'saw in the Fade'/people assumed he saw in the Fade - the Orb and its origins, Skyhold or his friend's plight (and as tragic as loss of his friend was, that chain of events has also confirmed Solas's claims about nature of spirits) and so on. I mean, never mind that that particular reveal has been done during a personal moment. We know from Patrick Weekes that Solas didn't drag Lavellan on that glade to babble out the truth about vallaslin, but that instead it was the first thing that came to his mind in attempt to smoothly cover backtracking out of revealing who he truly is. Plus, I assume that he chose specifically that glade - which he notes is where the Veil is thin - to confirm in some magical ways that he's not lying or delusional.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2020 19:37:57 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it. I think the Dalish's incredulity would be more down to him not having any vallaslin.
It's not all that surprising that they wouldn't believe anything told to them by a "flat-ear", especially one claiming to have knowledge that flies in the face of many of their traditions and deepest held beliefs. Compare this to Felassan, who despite occasionally upsetting the Dalish he interacted with due to his "foolish ideas", nevertheless was often accepted as one of them because of his vallaslin.
This makes me wonder about Felassan having vallaslin, as if he was an Ancient Elf (as many suspect), why didn't he have it removed? Or was it removed, but later reapplied so that he could walk among the Dalish without arousing any suspicion? If Solas failed to be accepted by the Dalish, maybe he was forced to rely on his agents that still possessed vallaslin instead to infiltrate their ranks and gather information.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 17, 2020 20:23:49 GMT
I can't really blame the Dalish for not believing Solas. He can't prove his claims and "I saw it in the Fade" isn't gonna cut it. I think the Dalish's incredulity would be more down to him not having any vallaslin.
It's not all that surprising that they wouldn't believe anything told to them by a "flat-ear", especially one claiming to have knowledge that flies in the face of many of their traditions and deepest held beliefs. Compare this to Felassan, who despite occasionally upsetting the Dalish he interacted with due to his "foolish ideas", nevertheless was often accepted as one of them because of his vallaslin.
This makes me wonder about Felassan having vallaslin, as if he was an Ancient Elf (as many suspect), why didn't he have it removed? Or was it removed, but later reapplied so that he could walk among the Dalish without arousing any suspicion? If Solas failed to be accepted by the Dalish, maybe he was forced to rely on his agents that still possessed vallaslin instead to infiltrate their ranks and gather information.
It's quite likely Solas has only really relied on his agents, or whatever he could achieve via Fade itself, because I don't think the one and only year he was awake after he's created the Veil has been spent mostly on travelling between Dalish clans and trying to unsuccessfully convince most of them, or something. Never mind that I really don't think Solas, or anybody who worked for him, has just waltzed somewhere, began claiming things flying against someone's entire identity and then was like "believe me! ...Uh, it's in the Fade!" Even in ancient propaganda pamphlet it is noted that Solas - who described himself as hot-headed and always ready for a fight in his youth - acts through subtlety, knowledgeably and ability to talk with people. In fact, that pamphlet was issued specifically because Solas was this good at convincing people  Naturally, in modern Thedas such skills would be dulled by the fact that at the time Solas woke up the truth about him or the past seems just so unbelievably bonkers, plus - people that needed convincing weren't ancient elves anymore. I don't think that would make Solas or his people change the approach to be a 180 to previous one tho. Thing is, I don't think this is just about knowing or accepting the truth. That distrust and disappointment Solas carries (be it towards the Dalish or others) doesn't seem like a a result of being let down or chased away several of times, but also millennia of observations of mortals and whatever he's learned through that.
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Post by Iddy on Jan 21, 2020 0:10:26 GMT
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jan 21, 2020 2:51:03 GMT
Basically, that’s why they gave the mustache to Dorian, not the egg.
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Post by Auirel on Jan 21, 2020 10:14:05 GMT
Does anyone know if there are any in-universe references about the appearance of Fen'Harel being a giant black wolf with an excessive number of red eyes? Because AFAIK any statues, murals and artwork not done by Solas himself just have him appear as a regular looking (sometimes giant) wolf. The only thing I found that was close was the Treachery of the Wolf codex and that isn't accurate enough for me to count it. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 21, 2020 15:35:34 GMT
Does anyone know if there are any in-universe references about the appearance of Fen'Harel being a giant black wolf with an excessive number of red eyes? Because AFAIK any statues, murals and artwork not done by Solas himself just have him appear as a regular looking (sometimes giant) wolf. The only thing I found that was close was the Treachery of the Wolf codex and that isn't accurate enough for me to count it. There aren't and the 'Treachery' description is propaganda. Keep in mind though that that was Solas's Fade fursona from ancient times - it could be that he's never appeared as such a wolf after the Veil dropped, or hardly anyone has seen him appear as such orrrr - he mighty have appeared like that to someone, but nobody would know it's Fen'Harel, much less Solas. Also, the statues may be of regular wolf, because sometimes it's hard to remember how stuff in dreams looks like or he wanted to look friendlier, plus - I don't think they wanted to go overboard with mysterious/sinister-looking wolf depiction in order not to trigger our suspicions. It was enough that they stuffed wolves everywhere for some of us to be like 'hmmmm'... 
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Post by Auirel on Jan 21, 2020 21:37:19 GMT
There aren't and the 'Treachery' description is propaganda. Keep in mind though that that was Solas's Fade fursona from ancient times - it could be that he's never appeared as such a wolf after the Veil dropped, or hardly anyone has seen him appear as such orrrr - he mighty have appeared like that to someone, but nobody would know it's Fen'Harel, much less Solas. Also, the statues may be of regular wolf, because sometimes it's hard to remember how stuff in dreams looks like or he wanted to look friendlier, plus - I don't think they wanted to go overboard with mysterious/sinister-looking wolf depiction in order not to trigger our suspicions. It was enough that they stuffed wolves everywhere for some of us to be like 'hmmmm'... True, maybe its just hard to remember what he actually looked like in the Fade while dreaming. I don't think any Dalish character has described Fen'Harel in that way either. It does seem like a popular interpretation by us that the Dalish only really know him as this demony giant wolf, but there aren't any direct sources that actually confirm it. I mean I totally understand why people believe the Dalish only see him like this, it makes a Lavellan's acceptance of who he is more significant if she's throwing aside this demonic interpretation of him, but Solas did choose this wolf form to represent himself and counter (or play into?) Evanuris propaganda. To "inspire hope in my friends and fear in my enemies," as it were. But maybe its also how he sees himself on a deeply personal level and not just for posturing? That I'm not sure of 
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 21, 2020 22:49:13 GMT
There aren't and the 'Treachery' description is propaganda. Keep in mind though that that was Solas's Fade fursona from ancient times - it could be that he's never appeared as such a wolf after the Veil dropped, or hardly anyone has seen him appear as such orrrr - he mighty have appeared like that to someone, but nobody would know it's Fen'Harel, much less Solas. Also, the statues may be of regular wolf, because sometimes it's hard to remember how stuff in dreams looks like or he wanted to look friendlier, plus - I don't think they wanted to go overboard with mysterious/sinister-looking wolf depiction in order not to trigger our suspicions. It was enough that they stuffed wolves everywhere for some of us to be like 'hmmmm'... True, maybe its just hard to remember what he actually looked like in the Fade while dreaming. I don't think any Dalish character has described Fen'Harel in that way either. It does seem like a popular interpretation by us that the Dalish only really know him as this demony giant wolf, but there aren't any direct sources that actually confirm it. I mean I totally understand why people believe the Dalish only see him like this, it makes a Lavellan's acceptance of who he is more significant if she's throwing aside this demonic interpretation of him, but Solas did choose this wolf form to represent himself and counter (or play into?) Evanuris propaganda. To "inspire hope in my friends and fear in my enemies," as it were. But maybe its also how he sees himself on a deeply personal level and not just for posturing? That I'm not sure of Oh, I think he does.  In fact, I think he has a love/hate relationship with his alter-ego. On one hand he dons the mask of Fen'Harel in order to both inspire and terrorize AND in order to do things that Solas wouldn't do or may object to (morally, even if it's a pragmatic option). We do know that Solas had a wolf fursona before he became a rebel, but it may have not been that black wolf - perhaps something closer to what was present on murals or as sculptures, or as seen on his romance card (that darn cute white wolf). I think that specific autoportrait with the black/many-eyed wolf may have been painted around the time when he's accepted that he IS Fen'Harel and will lead people against Evanuris. It may be sort of like that defining moment with the Herald on steps of Skyhold when they take the sword and accept the mantle of Inquisitor. Anyway, I think Solas fears that his own mantle will soon dominate who he is. I mean, it IS Solas, just like Leliana's darker side is still Leliana and Inquisitor is still a title carried by a specific person doing specific things and so on and their deeds as this larger-than-life hero can't be detached fully from who they are as a person. I think he's not looking forward to the moment his Fen'Harel side will take over (given all the awful stuff he thinks he has to do), which is probably why he appreciates Inquisitor, or people within Inquisition, who recognize and appreciate the side of him that he's either suppressed or began forgetting. Or why he thanks Inquisitor when they say in Trespasser, basically, 'no, Solas, you wouldn't do that awful stuff you said you'd do' - because Solas as Solas wouldn't do that (while Fen'Harel would).
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