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Post by arvaarad on Dec 13, 2020 14:08:39 GMT
I love the idea of ‘present’ Solas fighting ‘past’ Solas. In the sense that being with the Inquisition has changed him. Enough for his resolve to waiver. The Regret demon in Tevinter Nights broke my heart. I just see something going wrong in 4, something to do with the idol, that makes him realize that what he’s doing isn’t worth it. I want there to be other factors as well, the Inquisitor of course, but the very fact that the idol is between him and the Dread Wolf scares me. Fen’Harel is willing to risk what the idol does but Solas isn’t. I just worry because how do you redeem someone willing to kill so many and not have it be cheesy or forced? Especially when sacrifice and death are so cliched? And trapping him in the fade would be an eternal Christmas for him. lol How many innocent lives will he have had a hand in ending, through his own actions or his army’s, and at what point is it too late? Eh, tactical/action RPGs almost always have a confused value system around human (or other) life, I think that’s the nature of the medium. Players have two ways of interacting with the world, Talk or Kill. And the more developed the combat system is, the more time the player will want to spend in Kill mode. In order for that PC to be something resembling “good”, the value system of the world they’re in has to be pretty damn cavalier about people dying. It’s unlikely to be a workable value system for the real world. Maybe as algorithms get better at synthesizing new dialogue, AI Dungeon style, the Talk mode will become more strategic and compelling. You can’t really apply a skill tree to dialogue if every response has to be hand-crafted — there’s way too many different builds. There can only be one-off skill gates, rather than strategic usage of the entire skill tree, as is done in combat. Until then, I think we have to accept that most RPGs are gonna have a wacky sense of morality.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 13, 2020 14:22:23 GMT
Until then, I think we have to accept that most RPGs are gonna have a wacky sense of morality. Strangely enough it was Solas who pointed this out in his dialogue with Iron Bull. • Iron Bull: Nice job in that last fight, Solas. You really kicked the crap outta that guy. • Solas: I suppose. • Iron Bull: What, you don't think so? You ripped him a new one. It was great! • Solas: Unless the fight is personal, violence is a means to an end. It isn't appropriate to celebrate. • Iron Bull: I don't know. Gotta wonder about anyone who fights as much as we do and doesn't have some fun with it. • Solas: We have fought living men, with loves and families, and all that they might have been is gone. • Iron Bull: Yeah, but they were assholes! Solas is expressing a real world sensibility to the killing we do as part of the game, IB is the usual sentiment employed to justify our actions. I have to admit that Planescape: Torment is still one of my favourite games for the very fact that you didn't have to fight to win every confrontation, even with the final boss. All I had to do was focus on my wisdom stats and I was then given the dialogue options that would allow me to reason my out of it, essentially defeating my opponent with logic.
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Post by fluffysmom on Dec 13, 2020 14:38:28 GMT
I love the idea of ‘present’ Solas fighting ‘past’ Solas. In the sense that being with the Inquisition has changed him. Enough for his resolve to waiver. The Regret demon in Tevinter Nights broke my heart. I just see something going wrong in 4, something to do with the idol, that makes him realize that what he’s doing isn’t worth it. I want there to be other factors as well, the Inquisitor of course, but the very fact that the idol is between him and the Dread Wolf scares me. Fen’Harel is willing to risk what the idol does but Solas isn’t. I just worry because how do you redeem someone willing to kill so many and not have it be cheesy or forced? Especially when sacrifice and death are so cliched? And trapping him in the fade would be an eternal Christmas for him. lol How many innocent lives will he have had a hand in ending, through his own actions or his army’s, and at what point is it too late? Eh, tactical/action RPGs almost always have a confused value system around human (or other) life, I think that’s the nature of the medium. Players have two ways of interacting with the world, Talk or Kill. And the more developed the combat system is, the more time the player will want to spend in Kill mode. In order for that PC to be something resembling “good”, the value system of the world they’re in has to be pretty damn cavalier about people dying. It’s unlikely to be a workable value system for the real world. Maybe as algorithms get better at synthesizing new dialogue, AI Dungeon style, the Talk mode will become more strategic and compelling. You can’t really apply a skill tree to dialogue if every response has to be hand-crafted — there’s way too many different builds. There can only be one-off skill gates, rather than strategic usage of the entire skill tree, as is done in combat. Until then, I think we have to accept that most RPGs are gonna have a wacky sense of morality. It makes me think of Vergil from Devil May Cry. Definitely a fan favorite, mine as well, but he has killed so many people yet folks want him to have a happy ending. Heck I want him to even though he doesn’t deserve it at all. Tragic backstory shouldn’t matter but it does. The disconnect is weird at times and gives me a headache trying to think about it. Why would my Lavellan try to redeem him? I can’t think of a logical reason. In real life she’d either shoot him on the spot or immediately report him to the authorities. lol Yet in-game, mine would do anything to save him. I guess it’s just easier not to think about the darker negatives since there’s no real impact to ourselves. Just focus on getting those butt grabs back.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 13, 2020 15:03:50 GMT
Why would my Lavellan try to redeem him? I can’t think of a logical reason. In real life she’d either shoot him on the spot or immediately report him to the authorities. In case of the first part, I tend to agree the more I think about it. Let's say my Lavellan is already pretty frustrated by the stae of things (DAI gives ample reason to) and then the only one around her who she though could be approacheable also shits on her people and turns out to be the big bad after dumping her. Though Stonefisting him on the spot is appopriate... reporting to "authorities"? In DA? A bunch of racist human zealots? Nah...
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Post by fluffysmom on Dec 13, 2020 15:19:39 GMT
Why would my Lavellan try to redeem him? I can’t think of a logical reason. In real life she’d either shoot him on the spot or immediately report him to the authorities. In case of the first part, I tend to agree the more I think about it. Let's say my Lavellan is already pretty frustrated by the stae of things (DAI gives ample reason to) and then the only one around her who she though could be approacheable also shits on her people and turns out to be the big bad after dumping her. Though Stonefisting him on the spot is appopriate... reporting to "authorities"? In DA? A bunch of racist human zealots? Nah... lol I meant actual real life. If your significant other told you they don’t like how the world turned out so they’re gonna kill you and thousands more to bring their real friends back who are better at everything, I doubt very many would stick around to try and change their mind. Or try to save them. I’d nope the F out real quick like. I like the stonefisting idea though. You took my hand so have another?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 13, 2020 15:29:01 GMT
Hh, tactical/action RPGs almost always have a confused value system around human (or other) life, I think that’s the nature of the medium. Players have two ways of interacting with the world, Talk or Kill. And the more developed the combat system is, the more time the player will want to spend in Kill mode. In order for that PC to be something resembling “good”, the value system of the world they’re in has to be pretty damn cavalier about people dying. It’s unlikely to be a workable value system for the real world. Maybe as algorithms get better at synthesizing new dialogue, AI Dungeon style, the Talk mode will become more strategic and compelling. You can’t really apply a skill tree to dialogue if every response has to be hand-crafted — there’s way too many different builds. There can only be one-off skill gates, rather than strategic usage of the entire skill tree, as is done in combat. Until then, I think we have to accept that most RPGs are gonna have a wacky sense of morality. That depends entirely on the player. I don't care how amazing a combat system is - if there is an option to talk game sprites out of killing each other, I'd use it every time. (And feel more satisfaction in how things played out than if I'd defeated a tough boss fight. They feel more like chores to me than fun.) I have little interest in combat sequences. I don't like killing things in games. I just reluctantly accept that I have to in order to progress the story. ETA: I do miss the system in DAO whereby you could increase your Persuasion stat and convince people not to do stupid things sometimes.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 13, 2020 15:50:22 GMT
Hh, tactical/action RPGs almost always have a confused value system around human (or other) life, I think that’s the nature of the medium. Players have two ways of interacting with the world, Talk or Kill. And the more developed the combat system is, the more time the player will want to spend in Kill mode. In order for that PC to be something resembling “good”, the value system of the world they’re in has to be pretty damn cavalier about people dying. It’s unlikely to be a workable value system for the real world. Maybe as algorithms get better at synthesizing new dialogue, AI Dungeon style, the Talk mode will become more strategic and compelling. You can’t really apply a skill tree to dialogue if every response has to be hand-crafted — there’s way too many different builds. There can only be one-off skill gates, rather than strategic usage of the entire skill tree, as is done in combat. Until then, I think we have to accept that most RPGs are gonna have a wacky sense of morality. That depends entirely on the player. I don't care how amazing a combat system is - if there is an option to talk game sprites out of killing each other, I'd use it every time. (And feel more satisfaction in how things played out than if I'd defeated a tough boss fight. They feel more like chores to me than fun.) I have little interest in combat sequences. I don't like killing things in games. I just reluctantly accept that I have to in order to progress the story. Yeah, I have really mixed feelings about that myself. I enjoy the mechanics of combat, but my idea of a “hero” would be killing no one. Honestly, even the existence of heroes indicates a profound failure in a society. I’d much rather be the fire marshal than the firefighter. The firefighters take on more danger, so we valorize them. And when things go wrong, we do need them. But the fire marshals save more people. So even though I have fun in combat, I try to avoid it. It’s an odd situation to be in, being forced to choose between the fun, strategic puzzle and an RP that feels more humane. I’m really hoping that advances in conversational AI mean games can center more of those preventative roles. There are other, more effective ways to do good without fitting inside the hero pattern.
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legbamel
N3
Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: legbamel
XBL Gamertag: Legbamel
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Post by legbamel on Dec 14, 2020 15:17:32 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks he looks terribly sad in the teaser? Determined, yes, but mournful. It made new want to hug him. My canon Lavellan is fully on his side. She's up for burning it all down and making everyone start over, regardless of the cost.
Of course, she does, indeed, have questions, mostly ones that revolve around whether we'd be trading shem slavers and religious fanatics for Elvhen ones. That would rather defeat the purpose, though if there's another threat we aren't seeing it still might be acceptable.
My dwarves, on the other hand, would like to go down and fix the Titans or wake them up or whatever the hell is going on down there. All this Fade nonsense is just a distraction from the juicy, juicy lore.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Dec 14, 2020 16:24:02 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks he looks terribly sad in the teaser? Determined, yes, but mournful. It made new want to hug him. My canon Lavellan is fully on his side. She's up for burning it all down and making everyone start over, regardless of the cost. Of course, she does, indeed, have questions, mostly ones that revolve around whether we'd be trading shem slavers and religious fanatics for Elvhen ones. That would rather defeat the purpose, though if there's another threat we aren't seeing it still might be acceptable. My dwarves, on the other hand, would like to go down and fix the Titans or wake them up or whatever the hell is going on down there. All this Fade nonsense is just a distraction from the juicy, juicy lore. You are not alone. I thought the same thing.
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N1
Playing Dragon Age: Inquisition AGAIN!
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Origin: daymdel
Posts: 27 Likes: 81
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Playing Dragon Age: Inquisition AGAIN!
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Post by Delphine on Dec 14, 2020 23:43:26 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks he looks terribly sad in the teaser? Determined, yes, but mournful. It made new want to hug him. My canon Lavellan is fully on his side. She's up for burning it all down and making everyone start over, regardless of the cost. Of course, she does, indeed, have questions, mostly ones that revolve around whether we'd be trading shem slavers and religious fanatics for Elvhen ones. That would rather defeat the purpose, though if there's another threat we aren't seeing it still might be acceptable. My dwarves, on the other hand, would like to go down and fix the Titans or wake them up or whatever the hell is going on down there. All this Fade nonsense is just a distraction from the juicy, juicy lore.
I actually took a screenshot of one of the very last frames before the final cut, and there's a slight and incredible subtle change in his expression there, going from hardened, determined and distant, to so very subtly incredibly sad, sorrowful, and fragile even. BioWare animators already did such an AMAZING job with his animations in DA:I, but honestly I'm so ready to be blown away by the nuances, the life and all the subtleties they'll infuse in his body language and expressions on DA4.
Sharing the screenshot here, currently using it as my wallpaper, I edited it a bit to bea bit brighter, pop up a bit, and sharpened too.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Dec 14, 2020 23:54:50 GMT
His eyes are screaming, "please stop me!!!"
Poor guy.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 15, 2020 0:24:31 GMT
His eyes are screaming, "please stop me!!!" Poor guy. The fact he isn’t stopping removes any sympathy. Him wanting others to stop him does not absolve him.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Dec 15, 2020 12:13:23 GMT
His eyes are screaming, "please stop me!!!" Poor guy. The fact he isn’t stopping removes any sympathy. Him wanting others to stop him does not absolve him. Given how much sympathy many of us have for him, it clearly doesn't. lol
Sharing the screenshot here, currently using it as my wallpaper, I edited it a bit to bea bit brighter, pop up a bit, and sharpened too. WOW that picture gets ridiculously huge at original res. His face takes up my whole screen! Not that I'm complaining, of course. And that still image actually makes me feel a bit better about how he looks. It's still... I dunno. Different in a way I can't really describe from his DAI version? And I'm getting used to the smoothness of his skin texture. It just bugs me for some reason. lol But I'm starting to feel like, once I see him moving and hear the voice from him, I'll be fine.
He almost looks like he's an oil painting there.
EDIT: I just realized what it is that's throwing off that image for me, really. His neck is too long. Or my brain might just be whack, send help.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 15, 2020 15:35:33 GMT
EDIT: I just realized what it is that's throwing off that image for me, really. His neck is too long. Or my brain might just be whack, send help.I think it might be the ears. Dragon Age elves have ears that mostly stick up instead of sideways. This is more or less his regular face, but with more WoW-style elf ears. But because fan artists usually give him the more horizontal ears anyway, it’s not immediately obvious what’s “off”.
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Delphine
N1
Playing Dragon Age: Inquisition AGAIN!
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Origin: daymdel
Posts: 27 Likes: 81
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Post by Delphine on Dec 15, 2020 16:13:26 GMT
WOW that picture gets ridiculously huge at original res. His face takes up my whole screen! Not that I'm complaining, of course.
Yeah sorry I should have warned people about that. I wanted the best quality possible (despite it being a screenshot from a video, so there's only so much high definition and qua lity I can get out of it anyway) so I downloaded that trailer in 4K quality, hence why the picture is huge
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 15, 2020 18:35:14 GMT
I think it isn't the ears as they aren't so different in this picture but his face used to be longer (or slimmer) and his eyes are slightly different as well. I think you may also be right about the length of his neck. The design seems to have reverted back to DA2 elongated neck on elves or that could be the effect created by having really square shoulders rather than sloping ones.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 15, 2020 19:29:56 GMT
I think it isn't the ears as they aren't so different in this picture but his face used to be longer (or slimmer) and his eyes are slightly different as well. The ears still look like a very different shape to me. Maybe my brain’s facial processing just fixates on people’s ears for some reason. To me, the ears are what’s making the face look longer or shorter. Since his ears were more vertical in Inquisition, that made the entire silhouette of his face look a lot more vertical. They drew the eye up and down instead of side to side/front to back. They were slightly longer (horizontally) in the “kissy face” render too, so they’ve been gradually stretching with each new teaser lol.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Dec 15, 2020 20:27:46 GMT
Something I just threw together for reference: The proportional distance btwn the top of the chin cleft and the bottom of his lips is different I think? Just slightly. Also there's more room beneath it before the chin ends.
It could all just be the skin texture, though. He looks more like a real person in the newest shot. With a better skin care regimen. lol You could say he looks younger, too, I guess? In DAI, I got the impression he looked middle aged. Maybe late 30s. New shot looks more early thirties...? Though to be honest, I suck at age guessing half the time.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 15, 2020 22:40:10 GMT
Something I just threw together for reference: The proportional distance btwn the top of the chin cleft and the bottom of his lips is different I think? Just slightly. Also there's more room beneath it before the chin ends.
It could all just be the skin texture, though. He looks more like a real person in the newest shot. With a better skin care regimen. lol You could say he looks younger, too, I guess? In DAI, I got the impression he looked middle aged. Maybe late 30s. New shot looks more early thirties...? Though to be honest, I suck at age guessing half the time.
The image on the left is shot from slightly below compared to the image from the right, just like the other picture I see that people have made comparisons to, so naturally there will be differences between chin, lips, nose proportions... because you're looking at it from a different angle and then trying to compare it to a picture that isn't 1:1 in any regard (lighting, angle... also, simply different generation of the same engine, with imrpovements to, well, everything when it comes to image rendering). We just don't have that images of Solas from DAI that would match the angle of the camera in relation to the the face. In the trailer he is shown to look slightly down at you, in order to imply he's a dominant force of the next DA, both literally and figuratively.
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Post by fluffysmom on Dec 16, 2020 1:22:28 GMT
Someone did a side-by-side comparison in one of these threads and showed everything lines up. It’s mostly shadow play. Can’t remember where it is though.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 16, 2020 13:59:03 GMT
I wasn't able to post the head shot I originally wanted to use for some reason. However, let's try again with a different one: So the ears do appear to droop a bit more outwards in the more recent picture. Naturally the eyes look different because in my latest offering he is looking at his Vhenan rather than looking fearsome. However, I still think the angle on them is slightly different. It is difficult to see but I think his old face was more chiseled towards the chin, although it is hard to tell because of the lighting on the recent picture. I do think Delphine is right about the neck though and, as I say above, it is because he has sloping shoulders in the older image but squared off shoulders in the recent one, which is emphasised by by his outfit. Nevertheless, I think the main difference is that he is looking severe and stoic in the recent picture, whereas in both the older pictures there is a softer, more approachable visage. This alteration can of course be explained by the fact that he is becoming more the Dread Wolf and less Solas over time.
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Delphine
N1
Playing Dragon Age: Inquisition AGAIN!
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Origin: daymdel
Posts: 27 Likes: 81
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Playing Dragon Age: Inquisition AGAIN!
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Post by Delphine on Dec 16, 2020 22:50:20 GMT
Honestly, the differences I can notice so far are the following:
- slightly wider cheekbones - slightly larger chin - squarer/sharper jaw
- smaller distance from top lip to nose - more slanted ears - Squarer shoulders - Slightly different eyebrow shape, slightly fuller/bushier, and more arched instead of being straight & thin
- fuller eyes (in the sense of more fat deposit), and less deep-seated - Way thinner bottom lip, now it's the top lip that's bigger, while it used to be the bottom one
- Softer nose tip - lower nostrils
- Less round head-shape (but the new one is more anatomically accurate though)
- Smoother skin texture - no freckles at all sobs
- slightly bigger distance between eyes and eyebrows - wider/bigger neck - straighter hooded eyes, while they before they looked more downturned
- cupid's bow used to be bigger
- thinner nose bridge base, which kinda makes him lose his peculiar DA:I elvhen look
Overall all of those changes are very subtle though, but all combined together, they give the impression that he looks a bit younger, that his face is shorter (it isn't though) and squarer. That and also the lighting of course. I'd say that the biggest changes to me would be the eyes. A lot of those subtle changes have made them more realistic, but have also changed their nature a bit, which I honestly don't mind. Again, 6 years a lot in the industry of video games, and I think part of Solas' 3D model in DA:I looking the way it does was also because BioWare's 3D modelers might have been limited by the technology not fully being able to create exactly what they had in mind back when, with utmost fidelity, while nowadays, they can get closer and closer to that ideal.
Here, a shitty gif where I put both faces on top of each other:
(Yeah, I was bored I guess)
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N5
blep mlem mlem
ratlobster banger
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Prime Posts: 3,912
Prime Likes: 9733
Posts: 2,894 Likes: 12,961
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ratlobster banger
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Post by Solas on Dec 17, 2020 0:25:46 GMT
His appearance will most likely change yet again between now and release, see The Fires Above Morrigan, Cass and Varric compared to how they were at release.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 17, 2020 0:47:10 GMT
His appearance will most likely change yet again between now and release, see The Fires Above Morrigan, Cass and Varric compared to how they were at release. While I agree that some tweaking will keep happening (it's one of the reasons why Solas was in shadows and why they don't show anyone else...), the difference between then and now is that style-wise things weren't as established as they are post DAI release. So I don't' really think things will change terribly much from what we see now. Anyway, here's a comment liked by our resident lurking dev.
Lol.
No surprises here. A change in art direction for NPCs, chars and fauna is to be expected. Also expected is a change in the faces of returning chars (if any). Interesting, though, that art does not change the flora, trees, grass rock, water .. etc . If it was from Mark, then I suppose he is using a marketing technique to keep interest "alive" while revealing nothing.
I’m not expecting significant changes from what we saw in DAI - I think we can expect a lot of refinement in DA4 rather than redesign. Also - faces may be identical to those from DAI, yet still look quite different thanks to updated shaders, textures and animations. I'll also warn again that the same model may look different in different lighting conditions. I mean... that was actually the issue with Inquisition's CC - people's character models looked different than they did in CC due to how the model was lit in CC
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Post by fluffysmom on Dec 17, 2020 1:18:43 GMT
For me it’s his bottom lip throwing me off. It’s quite a bit thinner. Please don’t make me start an embarrassing petition, Bioware.
Joking aside, I thought they showed an in-game model of his face? It looked wonderful to me. Or was that just a technical thing?
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