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Post by midnight tea on Oct 22, 2016 21:45:31 GMT
Regarding your point about at what stage would the Veil have been justified, Solas himself seems to change his stance on this issue. Initially he says it is because the Evanuris murdered Mythal and he wanted to shut them away as punishment because he couldn't be sure he could kill them, plus he seems to think eternal imprisonment a much better punishment than simply killing them. According to this version of his motivations, he didn't seem to have a problem with the existing world so long as Mythal was around to keep the gods in order. There are a lot of wonky assumptions, stretches and inaccuracies here that I see. First - no, Solas doesn't "seem to change his stance on the issue", his main motivation is NOT Mythal and no; he didn't just began to work against the false gods in the wake of her assassination. His first and foremost reason to not just create the Veil, but to instigate rebellion itself was stop whatever Evanuris was planning. How do we know it? From rune placed on his Deep Road mural in Trespasser. "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."
And yes, it is 99,9% Solas's message. The damning evidence is also in datamined files, which describe a room with that specific mural and rune as thus: The fact that Mythal was Evanuris merely indicates that the case with Evanuris - or some of them, at least - is more complicated than the picture that has emerged so far. Don't forget that if Inquisitor drinks from the Well in Trespasser, they can find out that Mythal knew secret passphrase only Fen'Harel's allies knew, indicating that she even might have worked with Fen'Harel and his rebels in secret, in order to eventually overturn the other six. It may have been the reason why she died, or one among any. In any case, making it seem like Solas created the Veil merely for the sake of revenge seems extremely simplistic and unfair to him. Not only due to evidence above, showing that he obviously had the problem with Evanuris long before he created the Veil, but also because we don't really know what happened to Mythal, why and how did she feature in Solas's plans or he in hers. The codices and hints in Trespasser however, as well as some lore pieces in main game portray her as the only reasonable Evanuris who kept everyone else in check, be it through wit, influence or just sheer power (and likely political games, which Solas himself seems to enjoy and may have participated it, even if solely to help Mythal curb other mage-kings' ambitions). So after she's killed, is it really that much of a stretch to think that now that the only power able to stop other Evanuris is gone, everything will go South fast and Fen'Harel may be forced to do something drastic? I mean, heck, Solas tells us, explicitly, that Mythal was murdered in order to quench other Evanuris' lust for power - what that power was or did murdering Mythal guaranteed them access to something terrifying is a matter of speculation now, but considering that we have enough indications that the power Evanuris sought access to could be the Blight, and that Mythal stood in opposition to it, at least according to some lore pieces, indicates strongly that whatever they wanted to accomplish by murdering Mythal was something to be seriously concerned with... not to mention that likely when she was gone, Evanuris may have simply just went on a rampage, crushed the rebellion and enslave everyone else entirely on their own, now that the only person able to stop them was gone. That is not to say that Solas didn't seek revenge for Mythal, whom he seemed to have strong feelings for, but it seems to be a secondary, and perhaps even tertiary motivation, rather than the primary one, as you're suggesting. ... Hardly something to be guilty about? Even if destruction or death were 100% necessary and justified, it's unrealistic to expect a person - especially an empathetic one - to not be wracked with guilt. Hheck, Solas even tells us so in the game, in a conversation string with Iron Bull ("No man can kill so many people without breaking inside"). I mean, the 'survivor guilt' and other similar mental conditions are a real, psychological problems, and that's despite people being victims of cataclysms with no fault of their own - much less than perpetrators of change that brought destruction and death to people, wiping of so many things Solas loved and valued, and sentencing modern Thedosians to short-lived, frightful existence that quells any potential they can have more so than it bolsters it. Then there's the fact that Solas doesn't necessarily has to feel guilty for merely creating the Veil, but also contributing to a situation where it was needed in the first place. We don't know the extent of his involvement with Evanuris prior to his rebellion, but in Trespasser and some lore pieces we have enough of evidence to indicate that he was involved with previous power structure, maybe even so much that he helped to create it, only to have his hopes to create leadership and guidance for his people be dashed against ambitions of at least a few of the mage-kings he helped to elevate to power. In that regard he'd be much like Cassandra, especially in a world-state where she hates Inquisitor and laments the fact that she exalted them and placed them in position of power - and that's after jump-starting Inquisition herself. In Inquisition we have man such examples of people feeling guilty for things or decisions that may even be necessary at times - again, Cassandra is a great example of that. Leliana feels so guilty for letting Justinia die that it can lead her on a pretty dark path. And pretty much all DA heroes sometimes have to make decisions they're not happy with and express their guilt or regret, no matter how good or beneficial their decisions are, at least compared to others. The heck...? How did you even come to this assumption? All the dialogue in Trespasser indicated NOT that Solas was just immediately horrified and took a long nap to restore power, but that either the creation of the Veil OR a trap he sprung on Evanuris OR something he did to stop something worse than them (Cole's comment: "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap.") cost him so much energy, that he basically fell into a coma, which he was able to wake up "still weak" merely a year before events of the Inquisition. Also - what's with the assumption that Solas somehow thought that the Veil was a brilliant idea or something? Even in conversation with him Inquisitor can ask a very obvious question: "But you love the Fade - why would you create the Veil to push it all away" and Solas responds "because every other alternative was worse" and proceeds to explain that if he didn't do it the Evanuris would destroy the whole world. Solas didn't have to love the idea of the Veil in order to think that he has to create it, or even have much of a plan what to do afterward OR always had a plan to eventually tear it down. Why? Because from the looks of it the Veil was a last-ditch effort that had little to do with whether Solas thought it's a good idea or not: either he does it and suffers the consequences, whatever they are, or he lets Evanuris end everything. In a scenario like that "aiding the transition" or any other lofty plans were likely luxuries Solas couldn't afford. That's where the tragedy of Solas lies - he had to do it, even if he hated every second of it. He had no choice and it cost him pretty much everything and in the end it saved what it could from the world, but in many regards it has also left it in shambles. And the worst part is that it's not over yet, neither for the world nor for him. Untranslatable Elven Writing from Temple Of Mythal"We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been."Needless to say this excerpt shows that there could be various reasons why some elves have entered Uthenera - in this regard it would appear that some of them have done so not after the creation of the Veil, but the murder of Mythal. The only thing here that is clear is that we aren't even sure what are Solas's plans and who or what he exactly plans to save or restore. Saying that he simply does that to save a bunch of ancient elves is a vast oversimplification. If it was only about a bunch of ancient elves, you think he'd protest even more or refuse to join the slaughter of Sentinels in ToM in case Inquisitor didn't ally with them - he does not. He kills them. Obviously the objective is something bigger than just one particular group of people. Nor he'd make comments like this: "the Veil took everything form the elves - even themselves" and makes cryptic comments about 'restoration' and 'return of my people means the end of yours', which could mean dozens of things. Then there are Sandal's prophecies where EVERYONE will be how they were before. I'm pretty sure he doesn't just mean ancient elves. If you say that he was rather sparse with information, why do you assume that the information he gives or you try and extrapolate are all there is? Obviously there's more Solas doesn't reveal to us, that goes way beyond "ha! It's an obvious DA4 spoiler!". The reasons he acts could be as simple as restoration of elves and magic or as complex as saving the world from another oncoming cataclysm or something. Or both, who knows. Or just saving what he can before something worse happens. After all, he does say to Varric that despite his dislike for Wardens he'll give them credit for "buying US (that includes him) some time".... bought some time before what? Obviously he knows more than there is and his reluctance to reveal what it is could have many reasons; from not wanting Inky to stop him, to thinking that they're not ready for another truth-bomb and they'll find out what's going on in appropriate time. In either case it's too early to claim that "restoring the world of the elves" is as simple as 'restoring the world how it was prior to Veil', given that even 'world of the elves' comment seems purposefully vague and misleading, as many of his or Flemythal's comments are. If the scenario in which Solas created the Veil as the last-ditch effort against Evanuris is true - and there are enough indicators to assume that there is - saying that 'creating the Veil to prevent red lyrium from spreading can hardly be a reason, given that red lyrium has spread anyway' doesn't seem logically sound. Heck, even in case where Solas predicted that it would happen, there's no reason to think that he always worked with the mindset that he's creating a perfect and permanent solution for all of the world's problems. For all we know for Solas the Veil was always something he planned to tear down eventually and there's no reason to think that - if this is the case - the Veil was pointless. It obviously did what it was supposed to do: it cut the Evanuris away, freed his people and likely kept the threat of Blight or maybe even something worse at bay. That doesn't mean that it was supposed to hold forever or that the world would experience either new or renewed threats and this time it's not cutting away magic, but returning the magic to the world that might be a solution. Either way at this point we simply don't know. While I think most of us here are trying to wrap their heads around Solas's plans, I'm not sure why you seem to think the information we have now is enough to extrapolate all/most of his motivations and intentions, to a point that you seem convinced that his plan is pretty much entirely unreasonable or prejudiced. At this point we simply don't know enough that there is - and the game has been specifically designed that way. The whole moral or emotional conflict of either redeeming or destroying Solas has been left for (hopefully) DA4 and to give us now enough to speculate about prior to release of next title. If we just knew, comfortably, what he really plans or what else either he or the world is hiding from us, there would be no tension or anticipation. The whole major plot point and emotional arc would simply fall flat - not just for people who want to redeem him, but even those who want to stop/kill him, because the plot would be simple that way, with no further reveals that could mess with our perception or feelings the way BW games can do. I may be frustrated with lack of information myself, or the time left before we see DA4 released, but I get why they've done this or even why they've stuck to presenting whatever Solas plans to do as a threat and him as a future villain.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 22, 2016 21:48:05 GMT
I do not think Solas had a choice in whether to stick around after the Veil's construction or not. Regardless of how much or little he prepared for it, something that intricate would knock you on your ass and I believe it is implied he was forced to sleep afterwards. The argument could be made that he should have tried helping while in the Fade, but who knows if he was in a state where he could do that and didn't need to recuperate enough to be able to nudge himself into people's dreams. There are actually several implications across lore and even Solas's comments that he did indeed tried to reach to people multiple times, only to be either shot down, not heeded, forgotten or perhaps even chased away. It may even be a source of at least some of his bitterness towards modern Thedosians.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 22, 2016 21:54:47 GMT
The sequence of events seems a bit muddled, which would be understandable if you were learning it second hand but is odd since it is coming direct from the person involved in them. What we still need to know is why Mythal was killed? Was it just that the others objected to her keeping them in order or had she actively started moving against them. I keep returning to Flemeth's words to Merrill "the People are too quick to bow the knee", when admonishing her for bowing to her when she didn't really know who she was. Yet the Dalish are not known for submitting to anyone, it is an essential part of their culture "never again will we submit", so did Flemeth's words refer back to the People of old? Did the plan to free the ancient elves actually come from Mythal and when she was killed, Solas continued with it?
Otherwise it would seem the sequence was, Mythal is murdered, Solas rebels against the corrupt rule of the Evanuris and encourages others to do the same, he devises a plan to entrap them and does so by raising the Veil.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 22, 2016 22:19:49 GMT
The sequence of events seems a bit muddled, which would be understandable if you were learning it second hand but is odd since it is coming direct from the person involved in them. What we still need to know is why Mythal was killed? Was it just that the others objected to her keeping them in order or had she actively started moving against them. I keep returning to Flemeth's words to Merrill "the People are too quick to bow the knee", when admonishing her for bowing to her when she didn't really know who she was. Yet the Dalish are not known for submitting to anyone, it is an essential part of their culture "never again will we submit", so did Flemeth's words refer back to the People of old? Did the plan to free the ancient elves actually come from Mythal and when she was killed, Solas continued with it? Otherwise it would seem the sequence was, Mythal is murdered, Solas rebels against the corrupt rule of the Evanuris and encourages others to do the same, he devises a plan to entrap them and does so by raising the Veil. Solas's rebellion started BEFORE Mythal's murder. I'm not sure why you keep saying that it started after her death... Second - I think Mythal's comment criticizes not just elves, but people's willingness to bow to authority whatever that authority is. Heck, the whole of Inquisition is about giving an individual incredible political power, plainly because many think that the individual was sent by their god (never-mind other, more logical reasons). Heck 2: humans released the Blight because Tevinter magisters bowed to demands of their gods. And Mythal may have problem with elves specifically, and Dalish especially, simply because of the religion they're holding to. I mean, think about it - if Merril just bows before Flemeth, what would stop her to bow before other Evanuris, that the elves/Dalish think are their benevolent gods (or gods able to free them from bad treatment by humans) rather than tyrants who actually killed the most benevolent (as far as we know) of them, simply because they were thirsty for power??? I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the major issues with at least some elves in DA4. People, sadly, have a tendency to bow to whatever they view as prime authority for them, which may be elevated to such position by many factors and become a blind spot unmarred by doubt or scrutiny. I know this from my own backyard. After kicking away the commies to 'never again' bend the knee to those who'd like to rule us, we were quick to give Catholic Church massive amounts of political power, going entirely against the notion that we're supposed to be a secular nation. A clear case of Orwellian doublethink.
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Post by Amburu on Oct 22, 2016 22:21:32 GMT
:inhale: SOLAS AND KITTENS OMG *screams*
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 22, 2016 22:45:30 GMT
Easy - the destruction of raising/lowering the Veil would only be justified if equal or worse destruction would result from not doing so. If lowering the Veil kills, say, 30 million people, but leaving it up kills 40 million, then it's pretty easy to tell which is the better option. Granted that's an extreme simplification that only looks at loss of current life - factors like future livability would also have to be considered - so if, for instance, leaving the Veil up kills no one, but allows the Blight to spread, then tearing it down is the better option. It might result in greater loss of life here and now, but it would ultimately save the world. But, let's say things get muddied a bit. Leaving the Veil up kills 30 million people (Let's say they're spirits, or sleeping elvhen or something) and lowering the Veil kills 30 million people. Then it becomes more a matter of opinion - are the spirits/elvhen worth mortal people, or vice versa? You could justify both, really. Although in such a situation I imagine most would lean towards saving mortal people, both because almost all of our companions thus far have fallen in the latter category, and because it's the status quo. But - those elvhen would've lived longer, wouldn't they? Much longer. Whereas every mortal alive in Thedas will be dead in about a century or so. Is saving them worth it, then? Say you had to choose between saving a child or saving an elderly man - you'd probably pick the child, right? Because the child has more life to live. Because the elderly man's just going to die soon anyway, regardless. I wonder sometimes if that's how Solas looks at it. When you're millenia old, and you came from a world where everyone else was just as old, a lifespan of seventy years or so must seem frightfully small. I wonder if maybe he tries to justify it by thinking that they wouldn't have had much time anyway - that they are incapable of truly living a full life because a full life would last for centuries, at least. The modern world is, to him at least, filled with nothing but elderly men. So he's decided to save the child, even if it only exists in theory. Well, for one, we don't know what Solas did immediately after he put up the Veil. Maybe he fled in horror. Maybe he was so damn tired that he dropped off before the consequences really took effect. Altering the fabric of reality can't be an easy thing. For two, we don't know what his exact opinion on Mythal or her keeping slaves was. He says she was the best of the Evanuris - but that sets the bar pretty damn low. Being the best of the Evanuris doesn't mean he agreed with all her actions and beliefs. Maybe they initially disagreed, until she changed her beliefs to better align with his. Or maybe they initially agreed, but Solas' beliefs changed to conflict with hers. Also, Solas is allowed to have complex feelings on the Evanuris and Mythal, especially if he once regarded them as family. He might hate them. He might despise what they did and what they became. But that doesn't mean he always did. He could still care for them, still miss them. Yeah, they were shitty people, he's better off without them, the world's better off without them - but they were still his friends. His family. Feelings aren't always so black-and-white. It's not always "You're tyrants and I hate you" or "You're great people and I love you." It can be a weird mix of the two. Like - have you never had a shitty friend, but at times you kind of like them? Kind of miss them? Only to be reminded of what an awful person they are? I imagine it's somewhat similar for Solas, especially if he was once friends and comrades with them. Similarly, Solas can have complex feelings on court intrigue and still like it. Hell, him enjoying court and it's intrigue isn't even really the same thing as him liking the Evanuris/Mythal. He can enjoy the simple battle of cunning and wit while simultaneously loathe what that battle's being fought over. And lastly, the game offered you the chance to redeem Solas. He never spoke of it himself. If we run with the theory that Solas told the Inquisitor everything because he wants opposition (Another theory I'm not entirely sold on.) then that doesn't necessarily mean he wants them to redeem him or otherwise dissuade him from his course. He might be hoping that they'll simply try to kill him. Don't need to know his motivations to do that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 22, 2016 22:55:03 GMT
I would point out that my comments are based entirely on what I am given in game and not on data files. If that is what the data file says was the reason Solas finally turned against the Evanuris that is not what he actually says to the PC. In fact the first run through Trespasser I didn't even find that extra room with the information about collapsing the Deep Roads because you could only get there after visiting the ancient library and acquiring the additional power that enabled you to do so. I didn't even realise I could return to the Deep Roads because I thought they would be flooded. So when I did, this seemed to make clear that there was something bad in the depths that the Evanuris were doing and this was going endanger everyone so Solas felt compelled to stop them. So this would seem to explain his words about every other option being worse at the end.
I still maintain that if his aim was to free the elven people, it was achieved. If the aim was to save the world, it was achieved. Where his plan failed was that no provision whatsoever was made to deal with the aftermath? It would seem that the favoured followers of the Evanuris were the ones who entered Uthenera, whilst the majority of the former slaves were left still serving them in their slumbers or out in the world fending for themselves. They were the ones who lived and died down to the present day. They were the ones who were captured on mass by Tevinter, after the ancient ones (the sentinels) of Arlathan Forest had antagonised them by killing anyone who approached. (I still think that whole history makes little sense in the light of the revelations in the Temple of Mythal and Trespasser). It is the modern elves who are in fact the elves that he wished to free because they are the descendants of the slaves, not ancient elves like Abelas, who were the priesthood of the Evanuris and thus at the top of the hierarchy, just behind the Evanuris. Yet if the Inquisitior kills the sentinels, he laments they have killed the last of the true elves. Then he turns round to a friendly Lavellan and maintains he is not a monster simply because he is giving the people in the south the opportunity to die in peace. I still do not feel he gave me sufficient reason, in character, to justify his actions in the present. What is done, is done and should not be undone on the basis of what he has told me. At the very least, if it is done to restore the elven people, he should at least give them (the modern ones) the option of saying whether they want him to do this, having been given all the facts, including whether or not they are likely to survive the change. What right has he to destroy their world a second time? Sandal's prophesy isn't available to all either. Why should I take it at face value? It certainly isn't available to Lavellan. In any case, everyone being what they were before doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will be better off for the change. What the elves were before was enslaved to the Evanuris and because they didn't age, they lived that way endlessly.
So please do not lecture me that I do not give Solas enough credit. I have come to these boards enough and alternate between defending Solas and condemning him because I still feel that confrontation at the end of Trespasser was inadequate as an explanation of his motivations. It was great as a teaser trailer to encourage you to buy the next game but not as a justification for destroying the current world of Thedas. Having watched the alternative confrontations on You Tube, I find it less frustrating and ambiguous if the PC is not friendly with Solas. Essentially he says that he destroyed the world of the elves in the past and now he is going to put it all back again to the way he wants it. End of story.
I still find it hard to reconcile the person I admired for the majority of DAI with the person I meet at the end of Trespasser.
The bit about Flemeth and Merrill is that Merrill doesn't know that Flemeth is Mythal and it would seem in hindsight that she would have thought it appropriate if Merrill had known. She also doesn't object if the Inquisitor kneels before her, which I found odd in view of her previous comment to Merrill, but then it doesn't just occur with an elven Inquisitor but one of any race can choose that option.
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 22, 2016 23:56:00 GMT
I... isn't the point to Trespasser that it gives an inadequate explanation of his motivations? Like that's the whole point. It feels like a teaser because it IS a teaser. And secondly, while you might find low-approval conversations with Solas more enlightening, it helps to bear in mind that low-approval Solas is essentially a different person from high-approval or romanced Solas. They're still on roughly the same path, I imagine. But their reasons could be very different, and their opinions are plainly so. As I've said before, taking what low-approval Solas says to be indicative of what high-approval Solas thinks is a very risky business, and probably not very accurate. Think of it as the difference between hardened and unhardened Alistair. I gotta admit, I'm just a bit confused on what your sticking point is here. Is it that you wanted Trespasser to give you more information? I would've liked some more, too, but that's obviously not what the writers decided on. Is it that you didn't think Solas could be willing to do something like this? Also what's wrong with Sandal's prophecy? Why does Lavellan need to hear it for it to be valid?
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Post by Elessara on Oct 23, 2016 1:24:54 GMT
<snip> Sandal's prophesy isn't available to all either. Why should I take it at face value? It certainly isn't available to Lavellan. In any case, everyone being what they were before doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will be better off for the change. What the elves were before was enslaved to the Evanuris and because they didn't age, they lived that way endlessly.
<snip> This part right here ... to be honest, I'm not sure I take Sandal's prophecy at face value either but not for the same reasons you do. Things like Sandal's prophecy and the book of Arl Foreshadow and the coded book in the Black Emporium (DA2 version) and the smallest cave in DAI ... they're all foreshadowing the next game or what's *supposed* to come in the future of the series. But they're only foreshadowing what is supposed to happen at that particular time during development. As we know, the stories change and evolve from one installment to the next. I believe that there is an overarching story that the writers are following (or trying to follow) but still, things change. The events being foreshadowed may not ever happen.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 23, 2016 4:58:28 GMT
I would point out that my comments are based entirely on what I am given in game and not on data files.
I'd like to point out that I've given in-game information first and merely supported them with data-mined bit. Where does he says to PC that he began opposing Evanuris after Mythal's death? I think you may misunderstand some part of dialogue or lore, because both pieces of information in the game AND Solas's comments state clearly that he began rebellion to oppose gods and what they're doing and when they've finally went too far (ergo: killed Mythal), he was forced to create the Veil. I'm not sure how you not finding the extra room has anything to do with it? We're long past first playthroughs and we assemble what we know or what we assume based on the totality of information in the game and beyond them. And since the bolt-hole is hidden and requires people to re-visit Deep Roads it's obvious that it's a piece of information left for the inquisitive. Don't forget that BW games tend to reward inquisitive and diligent people clues, pieces of additional lore or bits that help us fill some holes (or poke new ones). And no, the rune doesn't just say what EVanuris plan to do - it clearly states that the people have to do: they have to rise before their false gods destroy them - a crystal clear indication that whatever Solas has found underneath the Earth has spurred him to instigate his rebellion. Again, I'm asking - why are you asking the game to give you sufficient information? I've already pointed out in past comment why they haven't done it. So did Ellawynn. I've also pointed out in the past comment why provisions to deal with the aftermath were likely thins Solas simply didn't have time for. I'm not sure why do you keep insisting that apparently Solas had either time, strength or resources to do so, when the picture that emerges is that the Veil was a last-ditch effort that has left Solas pretty much entirely depleted. We also don't know exactly what happened in Elvenhan after the creation of the Veil - in fact the whole recorded ancient history is sort of put under suspicion, given that no records: either elvhen or dwarven or human, ever mention that there was no Veil before (and dwarven fail to mention the existence of Titans). Missing such huge detail indicates that there are huge gaps in our knowledge about what Solas did or did not do for elves after the Veil was down. I'm sorry, but what do you think end of Trespasser was? He saves the life of champion of modern Thedas and that's even despite that he knows that they'd oppose him. He basically gives modern Thedas a fighting chance. That's all he can afford to do - expecting Solas to organize some sot of democratic referendum on whether modern Thedosians want the Veil down or else would be nothing short of mind-bogglingly naive. Also - I'm not really sure why are you pondering Solas's actions under the angle of whether it's right or not. It's not right. Even Solas admits that. He hates what he has to do - thing is that he thinks that what he does isn't right or wrong, but necessary. What does it matter whether Sandal's prophecy is available to Lavellan or not? We're discussing here based on TOTAL amount of information we have. Also - see, this is the problem with interpreting 'the world of the elves' with 'times of elvenhan under Evanuris rule'. There were times before Evanuris. Hell, there were even times before some sort of war before the EVanuris have risen to power in the first place. It is entirely fallacious to assume that Solas means he wants to return the world to times when Evanuris ruled, and we don't even know if beings such as Evanuris would be able to rise to power in restored world in the first place. Yet you don't give Solas enough credit - all your assumptions so far seem to be based on information you yourself say are incomplete. And again I am baffled with your statement that Trespasser for some reason should give you adequate information that would justify Solas's plans. I've already pointed out problem with that. Context matters. In case of Inquisitor - they know exactly who they're meeting. They just got back from her Temple where they've observed the amount of splendor and power and know precisely that it's a person they need to get help from. If anything, they know they have to gain her favor in order to finally beat Corypheus. That, and Flemeth appears to be amused mostly with the contrast between greeting from Inquisitor and her own daughter.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 23, 2016 5:11:53 GMT
<snip> Sandal's prophesy isn't available to all either. Why should I take it at face value? It certainly isn't available to Lavellan. In any case, everyone being what they were before doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will be better off for the change. What the elves were before was enslaved to the Evanuris and because they didn't age, they lived that way endlessly.
<snip> This part right here ... to be honest, I'm not sure I take Sandal's prophecy at face value either but not for the same reasons you do. Things like Sandal's prophecy and the book of Arl Foreshadow and the coded book in the Black Emporium (DA2 version) and the smallest cave in DAI ... they're all foreshadowing the next game or what's *supposed* to come in the future of the series. But they're only foreshadowing what is supposed to happen at that particular time during development. As we know, the stories change and evolve from one installment to the next. I believe that there is an overarching story that the writers are following (or trying to follow) but still, things change. The events being foreshadowed may not ever happen. Stories change and evolve, true - but while details may change, the overarching story likely won't. And Sandal's prophecy make statements that only make sense if you apply them to overarching story: "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see." I mean, even if we try and go through the biggest mental gymnastics it's hard to reduce Sandal's prophecy to something local or insignificant enough, or even as large event as Corypheus and the Breach - everyone is supposed to be 'how they were'. Everyone is supposed to see. All magic will return. That indicates change on global level. And the return of magic seems to be screaming of either Veil dropping or changing enough to allow magic back. Needless to say, it's safe to assume that DA devs have over-arching story pretty much pinned and they're heading in a direction it goes since DAO. Even fairly recently Mike Laidlaw has confirmed that an insignificant codex in DAO pretty much tells us what will happen in Inquisition. And David Gaider said that they've sat and planned out events in DA3 and past that even before they began working on DA2 and in fact DA4 initially was supposed to be (well... is supposed to be?) the 2nd half of Inqusition. They know exactly where they're going.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 23, 2016 8:36:53 GMT
The reason I think his rebellion didn't begin in earnest until after Mythal's death is that otherwise he was rebelling against Mythal as well. Why then would she address him as "old friend". We have all those statues linking Mythal with Fen'Harel; they were a team. It was likely he was her body guard and at that time was an arcane warrior, because that is what they did, acted as protectors of the nobility (which he tells you if you take the Knight Enchanter spec). Which is why it seems to me that he started his rebellion after her death and part of his guilt connects with the fact that he felt he failed her.
Alternatively, it was Mythal who encouraged him to lead the rebellion while she was still alive, while she remained in the shadows controlling things. May be the other Evanuris discovered the deception and this is why they killed her.
The discovery in the Deep Roads may have been the reason why he decided the Veil was necessary but not why he started the rebellion because there is a sense of urgency in that discovery and the rebellion seems to have developed over time. Unless, of course, what he discovered in the Deep Roads was the body of Mythal.
Probably the real problem with all this is that DAI was meant to be twice as long and the real story was always about Solas, not Corypheus, so essentially it finished with it only half told. This is why so many people I speak to who have played the game automatically think the Inquisitor character will be returning in the next game. The Devs tried to maintain that Trespasser had tied off their story but really it only tied off the story of the Inquisition and their role as Inquisitor as portrayed in DAI. The person who is the PC is still very invested in trying to stop/save Solas in a way that a new PC would not be. With a new PC we are going to have the problem of knowing far more than they do and yet having to pretend we don't.
My criticism of Solas' plan is valid whether a friendly Inquisitor or not. It makes the PC far too important if the fate of the entire world hangs on whether Solas respects them or not. When you are making world changing decisions in which millions of people will die, I'd like to think it was based on a better foundation than that. In fact he admits to you, as a friend, that his intention was always to use the orb to drop the Veil. If it hadn't been broken in the final confrontation with Corypheus, it was his intent to reclaim it and use it then, regardless of the friendship/love/respect he had enjoyed with the Inquisitor. So whatever his motivation and justification for this act applies equally to any play through.
I still keep coming back to the question, who is he doing this for? He claims it is for the sake of the elven people. Unfortunately the writers sent very mixed messages about that. However, on the basis of what he said to my Lavellan, I must assume that the modern elves will not be beneficiaries in a direct sense, since they will all be dead in their current form. He criticised the Dalish for clinging onto a false idea of the past (although they aren't aware of that fact) when he seems to be doing just the same, harking back to an idealised world in which all the bad bits have been eradicated. That is what he is trying to restore, which is no different to what the Dalish have been doing down the years on a lesser scale. It won't work because that is what gave rise to the Evanuris as tyrant gods. It would be different if he actually believed things could be different the second time around but then he states to the PC that corruption is inevitable in any organisation. So essentially he is just trying to repeat the mistakes of history because he doesn't believe things could be any better working on improving the present world instead. Not that he ever truly considered doing that. His rejection of romanced Lavellan was based off the fact that he knew what he was planning to do, that would result in her death and he could not abandon his plan and remain true to himself. It is why I feel that Solas, like all the Evanuris, was originally a spirit that became mortal and this accounts for his single minded intent. All that matters is his purpose. (Strangely enough this is now his only surviving friend from the Fade, wisdom having been diminished and no longer recognisable - now that plotline I think was highly symbolic).
As for the fulfilment of prophesy, if it is a case that all previous prophesies have been highlighting the future direction of the game, it is rather sad to think that we can do nothing to avert this. A prophesy is only valid prophesy if it comes true. Which makes everything pre-destined. Otherwise it is just an individual's idea of what they would like to come true. So may be Solas gave Sandal his vision because that is what he wanted to happen, not that it necessarily will end up that way. This would account for why it seems to sound a positive thing because Solas has to believe it will end that way.
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 23, 2016 9:43:34 GMT
My criticism of Solas' plan is valid whether a friendly Inquisitor or not. It makes the PC far too important if the fate of the entire world hangs on whether Solas respects them or not. When you are making world changing decisions in which millions of people will die, I'd like to think it was based on a better foundation than that. In fact he admits to you, as a friend, that his intention was always to use the orb to drop the Veil. If it hadn't been broken in the final confrontation with Corypheus, it was his intent to reclaim it and use it then, regardless of the friendship/love/respect he had enjoyed with the Inquisitor. So whatever his motivation and justification for this act applies equally to any play through. I still keep coming back to the question, who is he doing this for? He claims it is for the sake of the elven people. Unfortunately the writers sent very mixed messages about that. However, on the basis of what he said to my Lavellan, I must assume that the modern elves will not be beneficiaries in a direct sense, since they will all be dead in their current form. He criticised the Dalish for clinging onto a false idea of the past (although they aren't aware of that fact) when he seems to be doing just the same, harking back to an idealised world in which all the bad bits have been eradicated. That is what he is trying to restore, which is no different to what the Dalish have been doing down the years on a lesser scale. It won't work because that is what gave rise to the Evanuris as tyrant gods. It would be different if he actually believed things could be different the second time around but then he states to the PC that corruption is inevitable in any organisation. So essentially he is just trying to repeat the mistakes of history because he doesn't believe things could be any better working on improving the present world instead. Not that he ever truly considered doing that. His rejection of romanced Lavellan was based off the fact that he knew what he was planning to do, that would result in her death and he could not abandon his plan and remain true to himself. It is why I feel that Solas, like all the Evanuris, was originally a spirit that became mortal and this accounts for his single minded intent. All that matters is his purpose. (Strangely enough this is now his only surviving friend from the Fade, wisdom having been diminished and no longer recognisable - now that plotline I think was highly symbolic). As for the fulfilment of prophesy, if it is a case that all previous prophesies have been highlighting the future direction of the game, it is rather sad to think that we can do nothing to avert this. A prophesy is only valid prophesy if it comes true. Which makes everything pre-destined. Otherwise it is just an individual's idea of what they would like to come true. So may be Solas gave Sandal his vision because that is what he wanted to happen, not that it necessarily will end up that way. This would account for why it seems to sound a positive thing because Solas has to believe it will end that way. When does Solas blindly idealize Elvhenan? Hell, he gets on Dorian's case for romanticizing it. He outright says that it was "no better than Tevinter." I don't think he's white-washing the past if he's making comments like that. Also - since when did Solas have the ability to send people visions, especially waking ones? And if Solas is responsible for all of Sandal's weirdness, how'd he know to send a dream of Flemeth, when he didn't know what Flemeth looked like or even that she was still alive? How would it explain what Arl Spirit Dude? How would it explain the cave (Well, I have my doubts about the cave, frankly, but whatever.)? Further, why would Solas even CARE to set up this series of random prophesies that do nothing but vaguely suggest his plans to no one in particular? I'm pretty sure he's got better shit to do. Also, lastly: Hey, welcome to every BioWare game ever. Your harem of attractive yet willing love interests is to the right, your utterly improbable feats of skill and badassery are to the left, beer's in the fridge, call EA if you need anything and I hope you enjoy your blatant Mary/Gary Sue protagonist.
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Oct 23, 2016 10:14:40 GMT
Your song was beautiful, Solas, it brought tears to the eyes, and made the journey following you all much easier! My laugh at this comment sounded something like, phhhhhhhhahahahahaha, poor Fenris Edit to add: Elves and elves and Hawke - Haha, I wonder if Zevran or Fenris said something to make Solas turn away from them? And why is Fenris looking at his hand? Did Zevran make a comment about his phasing ability ? He's possibly contemplating using it to make Zevran stop laughing. xD I have the whole scenario set in my mind now. Zevran in an oh so innocent inquiry, asks about the red cloth, and Fenris uncomfortablely grumbles out a response, having been taken by surprise (Zevran had probably been flirting prior to his question). Zevran laughs out loud (it reminds me of his amusement at Alistair's expense about Alistair's lack of wooing) and Fenris, who brought his hand up to eye the red cloth as Zevran asked about it, is now debating using said hand to wipe the grin off of Zevran's face! Now we just need to figure out why Solas is upset!
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 23, 2016 10:48:05 GMT
The reason I think his rebellion didn't begin in earnest until after Mythal's death is that otherwise he was rebelling against Mythal as well. Why then would she address him as "old friend". We have all those statues linking Mythal with Fen'Harel; they were a team. It was likely he was her body guard and at that time was an arcane warrior, because that is what they did, acted as protectors of the nobility (which he tells you if you take the Knight Enchanter spec). Which is why it seems to me that he started his rebellion after her death and part of his guilt connects with the fact that he felt he failed her. Alternatively, it was Mythal who encouraged him to lead the rebellion while she was still alive, while she remained in the shadows controlling things. May be the other Evanuris discovered the deception and this is why they killed her.... I'm sorry Gervaise, but sometimes you give an impression like you're discussing with yourself, rather than with me, or you are simply are not paying attention to half of what was written (I assume my English is decent enough for what I say to come across clearly). I've made that observation before - in very first comment in this discussion string I've pointed out that Mythal may have been working with Fen'Harel in secrecy. I've even pointed out to evidence of it, given that Mythal knew a secret passphrase reserved for Fen'Harel's allies - Inquisitor can find that out if they've drank from the Well. Also - what "you think" is irrelevant in face of evidence: shortly after we meet Solas in Trespasser he lays out clearly the sequence of events: "I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel. And when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever." He then tells Inquisitor that "going to far" was killing Mythal. Honestly, at this point I am baffled with the way you form assumptions and loosely treat evidence. Like... you're mixing everything up. There's no mention of the Veil on the rune - but there's absolutely a mention of the necessity for people to rebel against their false gods. It's clear as day that the rune indicates that whatever Fen'Harel has found in Deep Roads has motivated him to start a rebellion and go against Evanuris; a fact supported by datamined description. Second - considering that the elves were immortal at that time, there may be an impression that the rebellion formed over time for modern Thedosians, while for the elves the rebellion may have swept like fire through the dry forest. Problem is that this seems to just be your personal impression, rather than anything that is supported by evidence. There is none that I am aware of, but feel free to provide some if you think I've missed something. Third - even if we assume that the rebellion indeed developed over time the urgency you're talking about pertained to findings in Deep Roads and necessity to oppose Evanuris, NOT that the rebellion and overthrowing of the gods must be super-fast. And no - I find it bizarre to even suggest that Solas has found Mythal's body in Deep Roads, especially that Solas explicitly says "let no one wake its anger" in relation to what he has found there. Lol, wasn't the same problem we've encountered in Trespasser? People knew already who Solas was, while Inquisitor was kept in the dark till the very end of the DLC. Didn't make the story less of a roller-coaster, given all the revelations and twists we encountered on the way. ...See, this is exactly why we were not given all of the necessary information at the end of Trespasser. There are obvious twists and turns that await us in the story - we can't know everything there is to know about Solas, his motivations and what really happened in the past or what is supposed to happen in the future, because it'd spoil all the fun. You're mixing things up again. Inquisitor asked what would have happened if his initial plan to use Corypheus to open the Orb worked as intended, with no Breach and the mess that was created - NOT what Solas would do if he'd recover the orb after Inky deals with Corypheus. I also don't see how a single person can't be a catalyst for someone to change. There are tons of stories in which a relationship with a single person influence others to make world-changing decisions. I find it preposterous to claim that it's a "weak foundation" for a story, especially that BW games have always been about inter-personal relations and how they influence people, big or small. Even not that very long ago, Patrick Weekes on his Twitter has chimed into fan conversation about the power of compassion shown to Solas and the power such compassion can have, so yes: DAI is most definitely a story where - at the very least - certain outcomes depend entirely on whether Solas respects Inquisitor or not (although surely those with strained relationship will be offered ways to deal with Solas). ... And not just myself have already pointed out WHY the writers have done this, so really, at this point I'm not sure why you keep beating this very dead horse. Again, you are making far-fetched assumptions, even though you yourself have said that the information is scarce and writers send a very mixed message. So in one sentence you're saying that it's all so vague and uncertain and incomplete and in another you seem to have decided Solas deeds and motivations 100%... Like I said, it really seems at times like you're talking with yourself, rather than with us and it can be a tad frustrating... See, again a contradiction. In one sentence you're claiming that Solas is harking back to idealized world only to point out Solas's cynicism towards organizations and in fact the world at large... So which one is it? I mean, really, there's nothing in the game suggesting that Solas thinks of the past as utopia - in fact there's enough evidence to suggest that he thinks otherwise, whether he's characterizing the nature of organizations, or telling Dorian that Elvenhan was no better than Tevinter in its time. The only thing that seems certain is that he seems to believe that the world now is worse than what once was. And unlike modern Thedosians (and through them: us) he was the one who saw both worlds and can compare the two (I'd also like to point out that Mythal also doesn't seem to be happy with the state of the world and works towards major change in it). Whether there'd be corruption and tyrants seems to be a secondary thing to restoring magic - after all, taking away the magic didn't prevent tyrants rising either way. You could claim that they weren't on the level of Evanuris, but it doesn't change the fact that it let people f**k the world entirely by such brilliant ideas like marching to what is widely believed to be a seat of god and unleashing a lethal affliction on the world that slowly rots it away. Again, where do you get this information from? This is an entirely baseless assumption. In fact, the dialogue Solas has with Inquisitor after ToM suggests otherwise - especially if, after he asks what Inky would do with power of the Well, they can answer that they'd help the world move forward. Not only Solas approves of that, he asks what would happen if all their efforts to make things better and help the world move on would only make things worse, and he asks so with genuine anger, as if this is exactly what happened to him (needless to say, I'd like to point out that that entire conversation - under the guise of asking what Inquisitor's plans are - is pretty much entirely about Solas, as each answer reveals something about his own experiences or motivations). Solas had literally thousands of years to observe the world and plan things from Uthenera. And taking into account how thoughtful and considering of every option he's portrayed to be, it is entirely out of character for him not to weight every option and alternative, especially on a matter of such grave importance. Even at the end of Trespasser he says that 'only the worst choices remain' - how would he know that if he didn't consider everything else? Heck, even at the very end, even when he things that he has no choice, he still wants to give Inquisitor a chance to prove him wrong :/ What makes you think that Solas have Sandal his visions? ...Because it sounds positive and Solas has to believe it's positive? ... See how you're making bizarre, far-fetched assumptions and mix things up? I'm sorry, but this is just silly. If anything, it's implied that visions may come from Flemythal (Sandal speaks of scary old lady giving him visions...) and not Solas. Also - there are many events in Dragon Age (or any story, really) that can't be averted, no matter of our PC's decisions. That doesn't mean that things can't be either exciting or entirely not what we think they are. Even if the prophecy is entirely true, right now we have no idea how it's going to be fulfilled or what awaits us next.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 23, 2016 13:02:17 GMT
Even if the vision given to Sandal came from Flemeth, that is still showing what they want to happen, not what necessarily will happen. If this was a true prophesy, it would have to be given by an omnipotent being that could see the future in its entirety, including all permutations that might alter it. So if it is a foreshadowing of the future plot, actually it comes from the Devs (god) rather than anyone in the game.
When I say he is restoring an idealised past, I mean in terms of what he thinks he is going to restore. When you say, won't it release the tyrants gods, he says he has plans. Mythal also has plans and both likely involving trying to destroy them. So ultimately he does think he is going to restore a world without the Veil, minus the bad bits (the Evanuris) and possibly the Blight as well. Will that necessarily be better than trying to fix the current one? He says everything about the modern world is worse than the old one. Well it doesn't have Evanuris. If the fearful thing in the depths was the start of the Blight, then that will still be there after he drops the Veil. If everyone has magic, will that automatically make everything better? The ancient elves all had magic, yet that didn't stop them being exploited and enslaved. The people who assaulted the Golden City were mages, likely utilising magical knowledge they gained from elven ruins; they were misusing magic, so raising the Veil had no affect on that at all. If you have sufficient magical power, you can still mess with reality, which after all is what he is trying to do.
When Solas talks to you about what you'll do with the Well, he disapproves if you suggest you might take the advice of other people. The one he approves of is saying if it doesn't work the first time, you'll go back and try again. Yes, it is all about Solas really. He only ever seems to approve if you say what he wants to hear. He only ever talks about the things he wants to talk about. Probably the most important question you can ask him is "Why does this world have to die?" He patronisingly commends your thoughtfulness and then refuses to give you a direct answer. Really everything else he told you was pretty much only confirming what you had likely worked out already and related to what happened in the past. What he intends to do in the future is far more important for people living in the present. If he truly thought you could stop him and wanted you to, then a bit more information would have come in handy. (I know the reasons why the writers withheld the information but it doesn't reflect well on the character to do so).
Solas does contradict the data mine. When you ask him why he finally moved against the Evanuris, he says it is because they killed Mythal, not because of what he found in the depths. Only much later, when you ask him why he shut away the Fade, does he say the alternative was worse because the Evanuris would have destroyed the world. Which is why I suggest that may be it was Mythal's body he found in the depths, perhaps having had something terrible done to it by the other Evanuris to ensure she would not regenerate, which would then fit both explanations he gives for his action. They had been growing increasingly more dangerous and Mythal was the only one with the power and will to keep them in order. With her out of the way, their excesses likely would have destroyed the world.
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Post by CapricornSun on Oct 23, 2016 14:46:18 GMT
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Post by NightSymphony on Oct 23, 2016 16:21:44 GMT
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Oct 23, 2016 16:58:32 GMT
Awesome art posts, CapricornSun and Nightsymphony! I'm having issues liking posts for some reason-- hopefully that will resolve itself quickly! I see a lot of awesome Dread Wolf, or white wolf, and halla fan art. I suppose the non-mage Lavellan's wolf tarot card doesn't lend for as much drama in art as the whole predator and prey thing. The lion loved the lamb... bleck now I'm thinking about my unfortunate tastes in literature as a teen. Anywho, I think the halla might fit my mage Lavellan's personality better than a wolf, though if it was me I would not want to be considered or correlated with a prey animal, even a beautiful and majestic one. Does the halla or does the wolf fit your Lavellan better? I really like the tarot card theme in Inquisition. I wonder if they'll do something similar for DA4... well, regardless, that's an awesome fan art!
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 23, 2016 17:32:01 GMT
When Solas talks to you about what you'll do with the Well, he disapproves if you suggest you might take the advice of other people. The one he approves of is saying if it doesn't work the first time, you'll go back and try again. Yes, it is all about Solas really. He only ever seems to approve if you say what he wants to hear. He only ever talks about the things he wants to talk about. Listen, I'm kind of checked out of this conversation, because I gotta agree with Tea that you're making some weird claims without much evidence that I just don't have the energy to argue with, especially since I've argued them with you before. But this, right here, this is one of those things that peeves me to no end. Yes, Solas only talks about what he likes to talk about. Yes, he generally only approves when you agree with him. You know who else does that? Literally every other companion in the game. Like - do you think you could tell Cassandra about how the Maker isn't real and her faith is dumb and she'd just shower you with approval for it? Do you think you could go to Bull and strike up a conversation about Dalish culture without being rebuffed because he just hasn't got an interest in the topic? This is a criticism I occasionally see of Solas' character, and it's one that has never made sense to me. He's just doing what every last one of the other companions do - so why give him, specifically, shit for it? If you don't like him, say you don't like him. There's plenty of reasons - good reasons - not to. But saying he only approves of what he wants to hear? ALL of the companions only approve of what they want to hear. That's a criticism that has no meaning or applicability whatsoever, unless you also hate every other companion for doing it.
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NeverlandHunter
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Oct 23, 2016 18:00:20 GMT
When Solas talks to you about what you'll do with the Well, he disapproves if you suggest you might take the advice of other people. The one he approves of is saying if it doesn't work the first time, you'll go back and try again. Yes, it is all about Solas really. He only ever seems to approve if you say what he wants to hear. He only ever talks about the things he wants to talk about. Listen, I'm kind of checked out of this conversation, because I gotta agree with Tea that you're making some weird claims without much evidence that I just don't have the energy to argue with, especially since I've argued them with you before. But this, right here, this is one of those things that peeves me to no end. Yes, Solas only talks about what he likes to talk about. Yes, he generally only approves when you agree with him. You know who else does that? Literally every other companion in the game. Like - do you think you could tell Cassandra about how the Maker isn't real and her faith is dumb and she'd just shower you with approval for it? Do you think you could go to Bull and strike up a conversation about Dalish culture without being rebuffed because he just hasn't got an interest in the topic? This is a criticism I occasionally see of Solas' character, and it's one that has never made sense to me. He's just doing what every last one of the other companions do - so why give him, specifically, shit for it? If you don't like him, say you don't like him. There's plenty of reasons - good reasons - not to. But saying he only approves of what he wants to hear? ALL of the companions only approve of what they want to hear. That's a criticism that has no meaning or applicability whatsoever, unless you also hate every other companion for doing it. I don't think Solas should be called out for it, because I do agree other companions do it, but there are moments where the Inquisitor can say something that surprises a companion and you can gain a little grudging approval. I can't give any specific examples right now, but I know they're there, because I find them awesome! I love feeling like my character's friendship or personality has an effect on those around her in more subtle ways. I think, not speaking for Gervaise, that people notice this a lot more about Solas because he is so opinionated, and radically opinionated if you look at through an average Thedasian's outlook. With that said, Vivienne and Sera both are incredibly opinionated and stubborn about accepting new ideas. If anything I'd say Solas is the most accepting of new ideas out of the three of them. He doesn't dismiss the idea of the Maker, he does come to accept that the modern Thedasians are people, he forgives Blackwall, befriends and tries to help Tal-Vashoth Bull, takes Varric's view of life into consideration, and he even accepts Sera for who she is. In the base game, neither Sera nor Vivienne grow as much as characters. Sera will start using the male pronoun for Cole (*sarcastic clapping* such an accomplishment), but even with all her mage friends and possible elven lover, she never lets go of her distaste for magic and her dismissal of all things not in Sera's comfort zone. Vivienne will come to care about Cole in her own way, though she deems that a weakness, but in dialogue the Inquisitor has with her, you never have the opportunity to change her mind on things (you don't even have the opportunity to call her out for a lot of what she says -.- ...that Dalish mages comment, er). Sooo, whatever my original point was, Solas is willing to change his views on certain things and he does listen. I would say most people even in real life don't like hearing what they don't want to hear. It's usually later when we consider the advice someone might have given us, and possibly accept it. Oh, yeah, I remembered an example! Cole will give you a little approval for telling him not to make the healer forget and your trying or it was a little approval for telling him to give the dying man a chance and not mercy killing him. One if those, or maybe both!
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CapricornSun
N3
Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
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Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
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Post by CapricornSun on Oct 23, 2016 19:14:12 GMT
Awesome art posts, CapricornSun and Nightsymphony! I'm having issues liking posts for some reason-- hopefully that will resolve itself quickly! I see a lot of awesome Dread Wolf, or white wolf, and halla fan art. I suppose the non-mage Lavellan's wolf tarot card doesn't lend for as much drama in art as the whole predator and prey thing. The lion loved the lamb... bleck now I'm thinking about my unfortunate tastes in literature as a teen. Anywho, I think the halla might fit my mage Lavellan's personality better than a wolf, though if it was me I would not want to be considered or correlated with a prey animal, even a beautiful and majestic one. Does the halla or does the wolf fit your Lavellan better? Thanks NeverlandHunter ! Frankly, I always saw my Lavellan (who was a rogue) as a wolf. Mostly because, well my Lavellan's a hunter and wolves are hunters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also because, dat wolf tarot card for non-mage Lavellan. (Though tbh, in terms of personality I see my Lavellan as a mix between a wolf and an otter. )
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NeverlandHunter
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Oct 23, 2016 19:28:24 GMT
Awesome art posts, CapricornSun and Nightsymphony! I'm having issues liking posts for some reason-- hopefully that will resolve itself quickly! I see a lot of awesome Dread Wolf, or white wolf, and halla fan art. I suppose the non-mage Lavellan's wolf tarot card doesn't lend for as much drama in art as the whole predator and prey thing. The lion loved the lamb... bleck now I'm thinking about my unfortunate tastes in literature as a teen. Anywho, I think the halla might fit my mage Lavellan's personality better than a wolf, though if it was me I would not want to be considered or correlated with a prey animal, even a beautiful and majestic one. Does the halla or does the wolf fit your Lavellan better? Thanks NeverlandHunter ! Frankly, I always saw my Lavellan (who was a rogue) as a wolf. Mostly because, well my Lavellan's a hunter and wolves are hunters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also because, dat wolf tarot card for non-mage Lavellan. (Though tbh, in terms of personality I see my Lavellan as a mix between a wolf and an otter. )Haha, that's an interesting mix. Now I'm wondering what that would look like. A wolf-otter or otter-wolf... like something from the Avatar universe xD Is your Lavellan playful and curious?
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NightSymphony
N2
Still in Solavellan Hell.
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Still in Solavellan Hell.
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Post by NightSymphony on Oct 23, 2016 20:16:33 GMT
Hmm. I suppose Atisha is more of a halla. She has the pale skin and white hair like a halla, but her nickname has always been dove because of that. Her name also means peace, so dove is a great nickname for her.
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CapricornSun
N3
Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
PSN: CapricornSun83
Posts: 361 Likes: 2,563
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Sept 18, 2017 14:52:54 GMT
2,563
CapricornSun
Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
361
August 2016
capricornsun
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
CapricornSun83
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Post by CapricornSun on Oct 23, 2016 20:17:35 GMT
Thanks NeverlandHunter ! Frankly, I always saw my Lavellan (who was a rogue) as a wolf. Mostly because, well my Lavellan's a hunter and wolves are hunters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also because, dat wolf tarot card for non-mage Lavellan. (Though tbh, in terms of personality I see my Lavellan as a mix between a wolf and an otter. )Haha, that's an interesting mix. Now I'm wondering what that would look like. A wolf-otter or otter-wolf... like something from the Avatar universe xD Is your Lavellan playful and curious? Yes, she is quite playful and curious.
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