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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 3:29:17 GMT
Let me start by saying that I keep being surprised (despite me being years online and discussing with people) that people from other side of the Atlantic Ocean tend to use word 'racism' pretty much as an umbrella term for pretty much all forms of prejudices pertaining someone's ethnicity or nationality. It is a word that gets bandied about far too often, but racism is a very real problem in the US. A large portion of our population descends from enslaved peoples, and the playing field continues to be slanted heavily against them in disturbingly myriad ways to this day. The blog post that prompted this most recent discussion is sort of a starting point for what often happens, in a way. The author/gamer projected her very real experiences with true racism into the game. She admittedly had no accurate concept about the game's lore going into it. This led to her completely missing the point in every case of what she called "racism" in the game. Her blog was still a fascinating and worthwhile read because of its real world value and application; but she was way off base about the game. Years of hearing "racism" thrown around, often justifiably, sometimes not, has the unfortunate effect of cheapening the word. Then the ignorant, stupid, or spiteful pick it up and misuse it and either make themselves look stupid, or start trouble. America is overflowing with racism, but not everything they call racist is racist, as you alluded. This is the second post of this sort I've ever made, and the second in two days. Who'd have thought it would be on a game site. We'd be warned and deleted for sure for such "controversial speech" on the old BSN. I like this new home better.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 3:36:43 GMT
The linked article is good because it might open individuals' minds to issues they'd never before considered. The author was absolutely projecting her real life issues into the game, though. She admittedly entered the game without an understanding of the setting's internal dynamics. She picked a Qunari, the setting's ultimate oppressors, and was suprised that she was distrusted. She interpreted the scorn as oppression rather than fear, because she was projecting her real life experiences into the game. Well, I think in the case of Tal-Vashoth, they're more of an oppressed group than an oppressor. Qun-sympathetic Tal-Vashoth might fall under the latter, but a Tal Vashoth in general might not agree with or want to spread the Qun. Even though the Qun itself poses a very real and tangible threat to modern Thedas, the Qunari themselves might not actually be, depending on their leanings. The Tal-Vashoth are certainly a different people. The author of the blog was complaining about the "racist Orlesian nobles", though, who were looking down on her Qunari character. Those Orlesians don't see Tal-Vashoth; they see Qunari. They don't bother to differentiate. She completely missed the point of their distrust, because she was projecting her own real life experiences with actual racists.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 3:40:57 GMT
I'll take a stab at some of these. We don't know if ancient elves who survived to modern day Thedas still age or not. I'm not sure if anyone asked the writers but I imagine they'd say "spoilers" if they had been asked. I think it's entirely possible that many of Solas' agents are ancient elves who survived to modern times either because they retained enough of a connection to the Fade to remain ageless or because they entered uthenera. I don't think all ancient elves were Dreamers. Although all elves had magic it still seems that being a Dreamer was more of a special ability. It was probably more common among the ancient elves as it is apparently incredibly rare in modern Thedas. I don't have much in the way of evidence to back up this belief though, so take it with a grain of salt. I doubt the common language existed in ancient times or certainly not in the form it does in modern Thedas. Languages change over time naturally. Even the Tevinter language has changed significantly as Dorian will tell you when you talk to Frederick in the Western Approach. It's entirely likely that Solas knows common from the Fade and from his various agents. I'm not even sure Mythal as Flemeth was known to Abelas and the other sentinel elves. Abelas says that Mythal was slain if a god can even be slain, which to me indicates that he believes she may still be around in some form but he's not sure. I honestly believe that Mythal has been trying to keep a low profile over the centuries, for whatever reason. I tend to agree with a lot of your ideas. This is as much a response to NeverlandHunter as you, so I'll just drop this tag as well. We really have no idea how many "ancients" are alive and aiding Solas, but it's safe to think there are some. As to their aging, perhaps the immortals never started aging? Were we ever told specifically that they started aging, or could it have been subsequent generations born post-Veil that exhibited aging? Migraine meds are clouding my mind, and my lore recall is currently responding with a 404. (I'm really not a proponent of this idea, I'm just spitballing.) I also agree about the Dreamers. I think the game makes it clear that they were exceptional. The Evanuris were likely Dreamers, and Solas' skill with dreaming likely brought him to their attention and led to his ascent to their ranks. The Tevinters followed suit in the early days, with Dreamers holding power. The prophets of the Old Gods were Dreamers (surprise, surprise... doubt that's a coincidence). Those Astrarium devices spread across Thedas were crafted by Tevinter Dreamers. Languages constantly grow and change. "Common" is definitely a "new" thing. Solas likely learned anything he needed to know via dreams. As Blackwall observed, "He knows everything about everything." I can't presently see NeverlandHunter 's original question about Mythal, but I agree with your thoughts. Abelas and his fellows seem ignorant of her present identity and existence. I suspect only Solas knew of her, until later events changed that.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 4:06:29 GMT
I'll take a stab at some of these. We don't know if ancient elves who survived to modern day Thedas still age or not. I'm not sure if anyone asked the writers but I imagine they'd say "spoilers" if they had been asked. I think it's entirely possible that many of Solas' agents are ancient elves who survived to modern times either because they retained enough of a connection to the Fade to remain ageless or because they entered uthenera. I don't think all ancient elves were Dreamers. Although all elves had magic it still seems that being a Dreamer was more of a special ability. It was probably more common among the ancient elves as it is apparently incredibly rare in modern Thedas. I don't have much in the way of evidence to back up this belief though, so take it with a grain of salt. I doubt the common language existed in ancient times or certainly not in the form it does in modern Thedas. Languages change over time naturally. Even the Tevinter language has changed significantly as Dorian will tell you when you talk to Frederick in the Western Approach. It's entirely likely that Solas knows common from the Fade and from his various agents. I'm not even sure Mythal as Flemeth was known to Abelas and the other sentinel elves. Abelas says that Mythal was slain if a god can even be slain, which to me indicates that he believes she may still be around in some form but he's not sure. I honestly believe that Mythal has been trying to keep a low profile over the centuries, for whatever reason. I tend to agree with a lot of your ideas. This is as much a response to NeverlandHunter as you, so I'll just drop this tag as well. We really have no idea how many "ancients" are alive and aiding Solas, but it's safe to think there are some. As to their aging, perhaps the immortals never started aging? Were we ever told specifically that they started aging, or could it have been subsequent generations born post-Veil that exhibited aging? Topamax is clouding my mind, and my lore recal is currently responding with a 404. I also agree about the Dreamers. I think the game makes it clear that they were exceptional. The Evanuris were likely Dreamers, and Solas' skill with dreaming likely brought him to their attention and led to his ascent to their ranks. The Tevinters followed suit in the early days, with Dreamers holding power. The prophets of the Old Gods were Dreamers (surprise, surprise... doubt that's a coincidence). Those Astrarium devices spread across Thedas were crafted by Tevinter Dreamers. Languages constantly grow and change. "Common" is definitely a "new" thing. Solas likely learned anything he needed to know via dreams. As Blackwall observed, "He knows everything about everything." I can't presently see NeverlandHunter 's original question about Mythal, but I agree with your thoughts. Abelas and his fellows seem ignorant of her present identity and existence. I suspect only Solas knew of her, until later events changed that.That's true, the aging might have only begun with generations born post-Veil. Neverlandhunter asked this in regards to Mythal: Do you think Flemythal is common knowledge among the modern ancient elves that haven't isolated themselves in jungle temples? I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Nov 5, 2016 4:13:10 GMT
That's true, the aging might have only begun with generations born post-Veil. Neverlandhunter asked this in regards to Mythal: Do you think Flemythal is common knowledge among the modern ancient elves that haven't isolated themselves in jungle temples? I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously. There's a group of "modern ancient elves" somewhere?
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 4:14:51 GMT
I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously. Solas plays dumb about a lot of things. He may not have known, but I suspect he knew quite well. He'd been awake for a year before DAI took place. That's plenty of time to discover the truth. Also, if Sandal's prophecy is any indication, it certainly seems possible that Flemeth knew both that Solas would be awakening and what he was plotting.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 4:16:30 GMT
That's true, the aging might have only begun with generations born post-Veil. Neverlandhunter asked this in regards to Mythal: Do you think Flemythal is common knowledge among the modern ancient elves that haven't isolated themselves in jungle temples? I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously. There's a group of "modern ancient elves" somewhere? You wouldn't know them. They wouldn't even look at me when I said hi. They've been ancient since before it was cool.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 4:22:04 GMT
That's true, the aging might have only begun with generations born post-Veil. Neverlandhunter asked this in regards to Mythal: Do you think Flemythal is common knowledge among the modern ancient elves that haven't isolated themselves in jungle temples? I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously. There's a group of "modern ancient elves" somewhere? Neverlandhunter was referring to ancient elves who are still alive in modern times, like the Sentinel elves - some of whom we believe are, in fact, ancient elves. Like Abelas.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 4:26:28 GMT
I'm not even sure Solas knew of her because if you take him into the Temple of Mythal he'll say, "So, Mythal endures." As if he hadn't known that previously. Solas plays dumb about a lot of things. He may not have known, but I suspect he knew quite well. He'd been awake for a year before DAI took place. That's plenty of time to discover the truth. Also, if Sandal's prophecy is any indication, it certainly seems possible that Flemeth knew both that Solas would be awakening and what he was plotting. He does but I see no reason for him to play dumb about this. I mean, he need not have said anything at all and it actually would have made more sense for him not to. I believe Flemeth *did* know that Solas was going to wake up and she may have even had a part in it. That doesn't necessarily mean Solas knew anything about Mythal as Flemeth. Also, I don't really have an opinion one way or another if Solas did or did not know about Flemeth/Mythal. I honestly don't think we have enough information to tell one way or the other. Darn ToP .... *waves hand* There is a Solas pic here.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 4:29:48 GMT
I was afraid I'd land that ToP post and have to work out how to post pics.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 4:40:06 GMT
I was afraid I'd land that ToP post and have to work out how to post pics. *shakes fist* I figured it out once ... and then forgot. And my screenshots are as bad as taking photos of people. The eyes are closed or the mouth is open or both. I *could* go find a good screenshot/drawing using google or one of the links provided by Capricorn or NightSymphony but really, I'm far too lazy.
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Post by NightSymphony on Nov 5, 2016 4:49:25 GMT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Nov 5, 2016 4:50:14 GMT
There's a group of "modern ancient elves" somewhere? Neverlandhunter was referring to ancient elves who are still alive in modern times, like the Sentinel elves - some of whom we believe are, in fact, ancient elves. Like Abelas. I'm aware of that. Abelas, however, was holed up in a Temple. So how many "modern ancient elves" are supposedly floating free as birds out there and what's the source for this? It's a legit question. Finding ancient elves in the Temple of Mythal is such a huge shock to the characters of the story it's pretty much a given that as far as we know... there are practically no ancient elves floating about not hunkered in a Temple.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 5:09:51 GMT
Neverlandhunter was referring to ancient elves who are still alive in modern times, like the Sentinel elves - some of whom we believe are, in fact, ancient elves. Like Abelas. I'm aware of that. Abelas, however, was holed up in a Temple. So how many "modern ancient elves" are supposedly floating free as birds out there and what's the source for this? It's a legit question. Finding ancient elves in the Temple of Mythal is such a huge shock to the characters of the story it's pretty much a given that as far as we know... there are practically no ancient elves floating about not hunkered in a Temple. There certainly can't be many. It would be sad to think that Felassan was the very last of his kind. I've wondered if there aren't at least a few others like him working for Solas.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 11:10:21 GMT
I think it would be odd if Felassan was the only ancient elf agent who has been active for Solas in Thedas over the last several years. For a start off there have to be the agents who left the orb for Corypheus to find. I can't see Solas entrusting that to modern elves. Then there are those agents in the Inquisition. Did he recruit them from modern elves already part of the organisation or were they his own ancient elves who passed themselves off as city elves? I know the one in Trespasser had hair like a modern elf but I suppose they could have altered their appearance. Felassan had certainly given himself vallaslin so as to blend in and be accepted by the Dalish clan(s) he came into contact with. They must have been genuine looking ones or you'd think Thelhen, the most bigoted and prejudiced Keeper imaginable, would immediately have spotted the error and refused to work with him, yet he seemed to trust Felassan even though it must have seemed odd that he was wandering around in the Wilderness and not part of a clan.
It would be interesting to know just how many of them were out there and how long they had been active. Felassan had been around for 20 years at least, which means he would have had the opportunity to attend two Arlathvhens in that time. Wouldn't Clan Virehen, with whom he seems to have been in contact during much of that time, have thought it odd if he didn't attend? Yet if he had attended, he would know that the views of Thelhen concerning city elves were not universal among the Dalish clans, which means he was deliberately misleading Briala over the attitude of the Dalish as opposed to the attitude of one individual clan. Originally he was working entirely to Fen'Harel's agenda and thus did not want the Dalish gaining control of the eluvians. Later he decided to let Briala have her chance with them and was killed for it. If he had attended any Arlathvhens, then you would assume he would have discovered the clan that actually had a book about eluvians and would thus have focussed his attention on them, or at least acquire the book from them in case they discovered more than they should, yet somehow it was Morrigan knew of this book and who stole it.
I must admit I wonder exactly what Felassan's true remit was. Solas says it was to gain control of the eluvians. I don't really see why he needed either Clan Virehen or Briala for that, since access was provided by the summoned Imshael. The latter seemed rather pleased when Felassan seemed to give some hint of what was to come, which would suggest he would have happily co-operated with Felassan if it aided those plans. After all I'm sure demons like Imshael would much rather have the Veil come down, although he might not have welcomed the return of the Evanuris. The casual attitude between Imshael and Felassan make me wonder just what they did know of each other and also the relationship between the Forbidden Ones and Fen'Harel.
Also when Solas says to Abelas there are other places and duties where he can be useful and he specifically says "Your people yet linger". Abelas responds "Elvhen such as you?" To which Solas responds "Elvhen such as I". That immediately suggests a number of elves like Solas, ancient but without vallaslin, in other words the followers of Fen'Harel. Abelas had already made it quite clear to Lavellan that he did not regard himself as having an kinship with modern elves, which is presumably why he asks Solas to clarify who the elves would be that he would be working with. These people who "linger" are clearly the elves that Solas is trying to save because, as Abelas explains, with each passing year they grow further from what they once were and closer to losing themselves entirely.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 11:43:07 GMT
Neverlandhunter was referring to ancient elves who are still alive in modern times, like the Sentinel elves - some of whom we believe are, in fact, ancient elves. Like Abelas. I'm aware of that. Abelas, however, was holed up in a Temple. So how many "modern ancient elves" are supposedly floating free as birds out there and what's the source for this? It's a legit question. Finding ancient elves in the Temple of Mythal is such a huge shock to the characters of the story it's pretty much a given that as far as we know... there are practically no ancient elves floating about not hunkered in a Temple. Oh, sorry! In that case, I don't imagine there's many but it's entirely possible there are a few. No real source for it, other than assuming Felessan was probably an ancient elf and if he was then there are probably at least a few others. The ancient elven empire was quite large after all and they appeared to have places no one has yet rediscovered. Depending on the aging question there might be small pockets here and there. Or they might be the agents of Solas. Or maybe Felessan and Abelas/the Sentinel elves really were the only ones. That would be sad.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 14:01:07 GMT
Also do not forget the elves that have become apparent in the Tirashan. They have blood red vallaslin and it is not clear who they worship, although it seems hinted that it could be the Forgotten Ones. Were they just Dalish who fled north on the fall of the Dales? (there were elves who worshipped the Forgotten Ones in the Dales), or are they in fact an enclave of ancient elves that were recently disturbed by the activities of people intruding into the depths of the forest? The Tirashan looks to be a huge area that seems hardly touched by civilisation and so could conceal any number of ruins.
I'd love to know exactly where we were during Trespasser. Fen'Harel's refuge was clearly not approachable overland because of the acres of stripweed that surrounded it, but it would still have be interesting to know where it was located. We then ran through several different locations between the eluvians that seemed remote and uninhabited, although that would beg the question, why? Likewise, how did that area in the Deep Roads remain undetected for so long? Why were the dwarves unaware of its existence? It would seem to be the location of a huge deposit of lyrium but seemingly untouched until the Qunari discovered it. Also there was no sign of darkspawn. Does this mean it was located near to a Titan or even inside of one? Was this the interior of a Titan that Mythal subdued?
The Temple of Mythal remained undiscovered because small groups that approached it never returned to report on it. It seems likely that Arlathan Forest was the location of another hidden community but because of the positive view of the gods, it was likely the remnant of an enclave of their worshippers, likely with nobility who slept through the years, while generations of slaves looked after their needs. It was these latter elves who were subsequently herded up and continued on as slaves under Tevinter. There was an ancient enclave in the Brecillian Forest because we find the spirit of an arcane warrior there. That seemed to have fallen to some external threat. So it would seem we just need to look for remote locations, possibly underground, to find the other locations of enclaves of ancient elves. Where did Solas rest up for all those millennia since he raised the Veil?
There seem an awful lot of loose ends that need explaining as a result of Trespasser.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 14:41:35 GMT
gervaise21, I agree that it's unlikely that Felassan was singular or unique. I believe Solas has at least a few friends, yet, from the "Fen'Harel Days". I'd not strongly considered that Felassan had reapplied vallaslin. His response to a question made me think he'd simply never had his removed, but I'd have to dig quite a bit to even find that exchange, now. It certainly wasn't the words themselves, either; but a combination of my own assumptions, and his words and tone. That he reapplied the vallaslin, to be removed later when no longer needed, makes sense. I hated to see him die. How long were he and Solas friends, I wonder? (Or were they friends? He definitely seemed to know Solas very well, and of course to admire him, as all his followers likely did.) Felassan wanted to give this new "rebellion" a chance, where their own had gone so wrong. Tough luck.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Nov 5, 2016 15:40:09 GMT
I'll not get sidetracked in endless speculation about Fen'Harel's war itself, but focus on the main points. When it ended, he fundamentally changed the world. He put up an artificial construct that diminished everyone living, and everyone born thereafter. He's not being racist in saying that the peoples of the Dragon Age are "mean", "narrow-minded", "lesser" (not a word he uses), or any similar such thing. He's right. They are. He did it to them by creating the Veil. He can't fix them, but he can fix the world and those born in the future. Your entire post was excellent, but I concur with this part the most. Solas states that his goal is to restore the Elves to their former state by tearing down the Veil... but we often fail to consider how this will affect the other races in Thedas? We merely assumed that they will be wiped out when "the world burns in the raw chaos", when how do we know the Veil being torn down won't return magic to all the races in Thedas, whether they be Human, Elf, Qunari or even Dwarves? To quote Sandal's prophecy in DA2, which strongly foreshadows the events of Inquisition and Trespasser; "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide"The Ancient Elves were the most magically inclined species we know about, but Solas seems to suggest that everyone formerly had magic prior to the Veil, with modern mages being only those rare individuals who've managed to retained some small connection with the Fade. Likewise, a conversation between Solas and Varric seems to imply that the Dwarves have been diminished in some way. Either this a result of the Evanuris' War with the Titans, the Veil coming down or something else entirely, but it's clear something catastrophic happened in antiquity that cut them off from the Fade; "Dwarves are the severed arm of a once mighty hero, lying in a pool of blood, undirected, whatever skill at arms it had gone forever."
It does make you wonder if we're blowing up the whole notion that Solas intends to commit genocide with the removal of the Veil? While the transition might be catastrophic, those who may survive the deluge would find themselves in a world without the current problems in Thedas. There'd no longer be a mage/non-mage divide because everyone could have access to magic, while Spirits can experience and understand the mortal world better, making it less likely to corrupt them into demons. Hold on,let's put aside the prophecy of Sandal that never made sense to me(Just as the majority of the prophecies in DA because ultimately the writers can always change their plans) but who is telling you that people will not die as a consequence to not being suited to live in a world without the veil?Afterall most elves are not ancient elves,dwarves aren't the same of the ancient times and that may be true for the humans as well. They may be simply not compatible with the world as it was as they developed their bodies to live with the veil. Who are those who will survive? Babelas and his friends+Solas and the Evanuris with the few ancient elves that remains and some talented somniari and maybe the darkpsawns? Because other than these beings i don't see anyone else survivng the world of Solas.So we resolved the mage/templar issues but we killed the majority of the population of the world(not just the continent of Thedas)
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Post by CapricornSun on Nov 5, 2016 15:45:01 GMT
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 15:49:31 GMT
Hold on,let's put aside the prophecy of Sandal that never made sense to me(Just as the majority of the prophecies in DA because ultimately the writers can always change their plans) but who is telling you that people will not die as a consequence to not being suited to live in a world without the veil?Afterall most elves are not ancient elves,dwarves aren't the same of the ancient times as that may be true for the humans as well. They may be simply not compatible with the world as it was as they developed their bodies to live with the veil. Who are those who will survive? Babelas and his friends+Solas and the Evanuris with the few ancient elves that remains and some talented somniari and maybe the darkpsawns?Because other than these beings i don't see anyone else survivng the world of Solas. I don't think anyone is inherently doomed. What is intrinsically deadly about the Fade? Removing the Veil doesn't make the air poisonous (though maybe pockets turn to poison because of crazy ass magic), or turn all the food to dust (though maybe it grows legs and runs out of the pantry, at the neighbor's place). I think the real danger of rapidly removing the Veil is the introduction of unexpected and difficult to control magic, and the sudden omnipresence of potentially confused spirits. Solas and his people are better prepared, as you said, to handle the magic and the spirits of such a world. That doesn't mean, though, that every other being would just drop dead because "not elf". I think there would be those who found a way to survive, and slowly new civilizations would claw their way back into existence. Obviously, that's a bleak future for a heroic video game tale, so that's not how things will ultimately take place. Still, my point this that the Fade and/or the post-Veil world isn't inherently poisonous to non-elves, as far as we've been told. Edit: I wanted to add this huge point, that I somehow failed to mention. It's pretty clear that the dwarves were part of the world well before the Veil. Humans most likely were as well, though I can't prove that statement with any lore, yet. The Veil is an artificial construct. The peoples of the world are creatures of the world (probably...), and the world's natural state is sans Veil.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 15:53:51 GMT
Also do not forget the elves that have become apparent in the Tirashan. They have blood red vallaslin and it is not clear who they worship, although it seems hinted that it could be the Forgotten Ones. Were they just Dalish who fled north on the fall of the Dales? (there were elves who worshipped the Forgotten Ones in the Dales), or are they in fact an enclave of ancient elves that were recently disturbed by the activities of people intruding into the depths of the forest? The Tirashan looks to be a huge area that seems hardly touched by civilisation and so could conceal any number of ruins. Considering that Leliana specifically mentions that the Tirashan elves are much like Sentinels, it's likely that they're NOT Dalish - and are either direct descendants of ancient elves or are ancient elves. Umm... how is Fen'Harel's "clearly not approachable overland" due to fields of stripweed? Does not compute. I know nothing about stripweed being deadly, aside maybe people allergic to it.... It's far more probable that his sanctuary was in some ort of remote location (elvhen sites are noted in main games to be located in far-flung corners), OR it was protected by spirits (we do know for a fact that spirits voluntarily stayed behind to tend to the place), OR there are some wards that repel visitors, same or similar way a ward on door on Solasan temple did OR Solas did something to either the place or people's memories that it had made the place to be often overlooked, probably the way Skyhold was. All of these options are likely. IMO every big forest on Thedosian continent likely contains either significant elvneh ruins or significant Elvhen secrets. Well duh... that was sort of the point of Trespasser - DAI after all is not a self-contained story and DA4 so far paints itself as its 2nd part.
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Post by lynroy on Nov 5, 2016 16:11:43 GMT
lynroy I didn't realise Crestwood was used for numerous character scenes, that's disappointing. Oh well, never mind! I like what Stick in the Mud suggested that 1) he needed a place where the veil was sufficiently wobbly so that he could show her the truth via the fade. Coz i think that's what he would've done, rather then just come out with "I'm Fen'Harel". And 2) needed to be far enough away so that he could leg it if she took it badly.. So I'll just pretend that's why Yeah, Crestwood was used as a backdrop for other places so the devs didn't need to create new areas just for a few cut scenes. In my mind that scene does not take place in Crestwood but in a place not far from Skyhold.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 16:46:11 GMT
Hold on,let's put aside the prophecy of Sandal that never made sense to me(Just as the majority of the prophecies in DA because ultimately the writers can always change their plans) but who is telling you that people will not die as a consequence to not being suited to live in a world without the veil?Afterall most elves are not ancient elves,dwarves aren't the same of the ancient times as that may be true for the humans as well. They may be simply not compatible with the world as it was as they developed their bodies to live with the veil. Who are those who will survive? Babelas and his friends+Solas and the Evanuris with the few ancient elves that remains and some talented somniari and maybe the darkpsawns?Because other than these beings i don't see anyone else survivng the world of Solas. I don't think anyone is inherently doomed. What is intrinsically deadly about the Fade? Removing the Veil doesn't make the air poisonous (though maybe pockets turn to poison because of crazy ass magic), or turn all the food to dust (though maybe it grows legs and runs out of the pantry, at the neighbor's place). I think the real danger of rapidly removing the Veil is the introduction of unexpected and difficult to control magic, and the sudden omnipresence of potentially confused spirits. Solas and his people are better prepared, as you said, to handle the magic and the spirits of such a world. That doesn't mean, though, that every other being would just drop dead because "not elf". I ink there would be those who found a way to survive, and slowly new civilizations would claw their way back into existence. Onviously, that's a bleak future for a heroic video game tale, so that's not how things will ultimately take place. Still, my point this that the Fade and/or the post-Veil world isn't inherently poisonous to non-elves, as far as we've been told. Actually, it is pretty well established in the lore that physical contact with the Fade is deadly to most (if not all) individuals. In fact, one of the main reasons the Herald of Andraste is considered to be blessed is because they walked the Fade unscathed. Even Solas makes it abundantly clear that he finds it near-miraculous - by his own words, even he can't walk the Fade IRL! Not without some sort of protection at least, which is exactly the reason why he's created the Anchor: to safely enter the Fade and tear the Veil from there. Heck, when we're in the Fade section (which Justinia explains to us is only possible due to protection of the Anchor), have you ever paid attention to all the broken eluvians we can find? There are bodies around them most of the time - crawling or running towards them, only to be seemingly incinerated before they reached it. IMO those are ancient elves caught in more Fade'y parts of the world that got themselves flung to Fade proper after the Veil went up and got themselves promptly eviscerated as a result. With that said... that doesn't mean that reuniting Thedas and Fade would have as deadly consequences. The Fade being cut from the world is - after all - an unnatural state, and it seems to me that sheer concentration of the raw Fade, or its lack of contact with physical world may be what does all the incineration of living beings. The effect might be diminished once things go back to... er, 'normal'? But personally, I don't believe it'd be an easy or smooth process in terms of how the Fade would affect the world and people - nor I believe Solas believes that. People had thousands of years to learn and adapt to the world with Fade being pushed away from it, and right now it seems that strong concentration of the Fade has about the same - if opposite - effect to the spirit being pulled into the real world: most of living being pulled from the Fade are unable to take the strain, and they contort into bizarre, half-mad creatures. Thedosians, in all likelihood, are unable to take the strain if they're pulled *into* Fade, to a point that they disintegrate - same way Cory did at the very end of main game. Hence... we don't really know what would happen if the Veil drops. Personally I think what is expected to happen - what Solas expects at least - is that when the Fade returns to the world, its dosage will be too deadly for most people to bear it. Or they may not 'die' per se, but the way the Fade will affect their minds or perceptions of the world would 'end' Thedosians as they're now, maybe even going as far as wiping or messing with their memories. May work kinda like a giant 'reset' button, if you know what I mean...
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 17:06:59 GMT
I don't think anyone is inherently doomed. What is intrinsically deadly about the Fade? Removing the Veil doesn't make the air poisonous (though maybe pockets turn to poison because of crazy ass magic), or turn all the food to dust (though maybe it grows legs and runs out of the pantry, at the neighbor's place). I think the real danger of rapidly removing the Veil is the introduction of unexpected and difficult to control magic, and the sudden omnipresence of potentially confused spirits. Solas and his people are better prepared, as you said, to handle the magic and the spirits of such a world. That doesn't mean, though, that every other being would just drop dead because "not elf". I ink there would be those who found a way to survive, and slowly new civilizations would claw their way back into existence. Onviously, that's a bleak future for a heroic video game tale, so that's not how things will ultimately take place. Still, my point this that the Fade and/or the post-Veil world isn't inherently poisonous to non-elves, as far as we've been told. Actually, it is pretty well established in the lore that physical contact with the Fade is deadly to most (if not all) individuals. In fact, one of the main reasons the Herald of Andraste is considered to be blessed is because they walked the Fade unscathed. Even Solas makes it abundantly clear that he finds it near-miraculous - by his own words, even he can't walk the Fade IRL! Not without some sort of protection at least, which is exactly the reason why he's created the Anchor: to safely enter the Fade and tear the Veil from there. Heck, when we're in the Fade section (which Justinia explains to us is only possible due to protection of the Anchor), have you ever paid attention to all the broken eluvians we can find? There are bodies around them most of the time - crawling or running towards them, only to be seemingly incinerated before they reached it. IMO those are ancient elves caught in more Fade'y parts of the world that got themselves flung to Fade proper after the Veil went up and got themselves promptly eviscerated as a result. With that said... that doesn't mean that reuniting Thedas and Fade would have as deadly consequences. The Fade being cut from the world is - after all - an unnatural state, and it seems to me that sheer concentration of the raw Fade, or its lack of contact with physical world may be what does all the incineration of living beings. The effect might be diminished once things go back to... er, 'normal'? But personally, I don't believe it'd be an easy or smooth process in terms of how the Fade would affect the world and people - nor I believe Solas believes that. People had thousands of years to learn and adapt to the world with Fade being pushed away from it, and right now it seems that strong concentration of the Fade has about the same - if opposite - effect to the spirit being pulled into the real world: most of living being pulled from the Fade are unable to take the strain, and they contort into bizarre, half-mad creatures. Thedosians, in all likelihood, are unable to take the strain if they're pulled *into* Fade, to a point that they disintegrate - same way Cory did at the very end of main game. Hence... we don't really know what would happen if the Veil drops. Personally I think what is expected to happen - what Solas expects at least - is that when the Fade returns to the world, its dosage will be too deadly for most people to bear it. Or they may not 'die' per se, but the way the Fade will affect their minds or perceptions of the world would 'end' Thedosians as they're now, maybe even going as far as wiping or messing with their memories. May work kinda like a giant 'reset' button, if you know what I mean... I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly.
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