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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 17:18:06 GMT
I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly. If it was passing the Veil that was deadly, I don't think we'd find those burned bodies reaching for eluvians in the Fade. Not to mention all the creatures we find near places where the Veil is thin, oftentimes dubbed to be "Fade-touched" (the DAO/DA2 codex on giant spiders directly addresses the issue of possibly Fade leaking through thinned veil and affecting creatures). There are also some adverse effects on minds of mages studying raw Fade, as evidenced by Rift-mage specialization teacher and group they represent.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 17:49:15 GMT
I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly. If it was passing the Veil that was deadly, Id on't think we'd find those burned bodies reaching for eluvians in the Fade. Not to mention all the creatures we find near places where the Veil is thin, oftentimes dubbed to be "Fade-touched" (the DAO/DA2 codex on giant spiders directly addresses the issue of possibly Fade leaking through thinned veil and affecting creatures). There are also some adverse effects on minds of mages studying raw Fade, as evidenced by Rift-mage specialization teacher and group they represent. How much of what we see in the Fade is real real? At Adamant, are those actually the bodies of people or were they created by the Nightmare to freak us out? It's possible that a lot of what we see in the Fade isn't physically real. The creatures we find near places where the Veil is thin ... that's magic coming from the Fade into the physical world, not creatures from the physical world crossing into the Fade. And Your Teacher and others from the Mage Collective studied the rifts and the magic of the rifts but - as far as I'm aware - they never tried passing through them. Or maybe they did and that's how most of them died. My point is that I don't think that being in the Fade itself is particularly inimical to life but passing through the rifts seems to be quite deadly.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 5, 2016 17:51:58 GMT
I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly. If it was passing the Veil that was deadly, Id on't think we'd find those burned bodies reaching for eluvians in the Fade. Not to mention all the creatures we find near places where the Veil is thin, oftentimes dubbed to be "Fade-touched" (the DAO/DA2 codex on giant spiders directly addresses the issue of possibly Fade leaking through thinned veil and affecting creatures). There are also some adverse effects on minds of mages studying raw Fade, as evidenced by Rift-mage specialization teacher and group they represent. Valid points. I'm undecided. I feel like I still don't have enough information, though I agree with your points about "raw Fade" and the dangers of "direct", or prolonged contact. I think that a lot of that is the fact that is that the Fade is a place of concentrated magic, or even magic constrained like a compressed spring. It behaves in ways that modern mages aren't prepared to handle, and possibly in ways that aren't even natural. (Could be I'm off base in my view of the Fade, but I've yet to hear anything through three games that's altered this idea. It just keeps being reaffirmed.) I always figured those dead bodies lying around the broken eluvians were the remains of assorted idiots who'd been killed by one of the following: a demon they'd stupidly summoned to assist in their efforts, like Merrill; disapproving elves; pursuers; threats from within the eluvian network; or something else miscellaneous. Honestly, the Fade never once came to mind. The eluvian network isn't part of the Fade. It's another dimension entirely that's "closer" to the Fade, according to Morrigan. In any case, we know people can "safely" walk through the network. Even the belief that no one could walk the Fade itself and live, without the Anchor, rings hollow, considering the 5 people I have with me in the Fade in DAI. Claiming that my anchor protects them seems like a serious reach. The Tevinter Magisters also seem to have walked the Fade and lived. At least one did, and lore suggests others may have made it back too, but less "whole". I don't think the Fade damaged them, but rather whatever Corruption they found in the Black City. I think the deadliness of the Fade may be more of a previously unchallenged belief than a reality. Finally, a small group has reliably challenged that belief by visiting the Fade and not returning as monsters of legend. I think Solas, and especially Dorian, even speak about this a bit, now that I think on it.
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Post by Theneras on Nov 5, 2016 17:52:15 GMT
I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly. I tend to lean toward crossing the Veil as being dangerous more so than the Fade being so toxic that contact is almost a death sentence. What is dangerous are the demons who inhabit the Fade. As seen with the initial scene and the creepy little spiders sent after the Herald. We do know that the eluvians went dormant when the Veil was created. I see this as the most plausible explanation for the broken eluvians, and the bodies around them. We enter the Fade with Morrigan after all depending on your world state, where the Inquisitor meets with Flemeth/Mythal. We do know that the Fade is easily manipulated by a persons thoughts. What you expect is what you will get. So if you expect to see the place as a burning caldron of doom, then you're going to get it. If the Veil has cut most people from the Fade akin to tranquility and mages then this is where I see the trouble starting. Most non-mages will be woefully unprepared for this sudden 'gift' of magic and possible wider ranges of emotions. It's all speculation, of course. But that's my two cents on it.
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 5, 2016 18:08:20 GMT
Also do not forget the elves that have become apparent in the Tirashan. They have blood red vallaslin and it is not clear who they worship, although it seems hinted that it could be the Forgotten Ones. Were they just Dalish who fled north on the fall of the Dales? (there were elves who worshipped the Forgotten Ones in the Dales), or are they in fact an enclave of ancient elves that were recently disturbed by the activities of people intruding into the depths of the forest? The Tirashan looks to be a huge area that seems hardly touched by civilisation and so could conceal any number of ruins. I'd love to know exactly where we were during Trespasser. Fen'Harel's refuge was clearly not approachable overland because of the acres of stripweed that surrounded it, but it would still have be interesting to know where it was located. We then ran through several different locations between the eluvians that seemed remote and uninhabited, although that would beg the question, why? Likewise, how did that area in the Deep Roads remain undetected for so long? Why were the dwarves unaware of its existence? It would seem to be the location of a huge deposit of lyrium but seemingly untouched until the Qunari discovered it. Also there was no sign of darkspawn. Does this mean it was located near to a Titan or even inside of one? Was this the interior of a Titan that Mythal subdued? The Temple of Mythal remained undiscovered because small groups that approached it never returned to report on it. It seems likely that Arlathan Forest was the location of another hidden community but because of the positive view of the gods, it was likely the remnant of an enclave of their worshippers, likely with nobility who slept through the years, while generations of slaves looked after their needs. It was these latter elves who were subsequently herded up and continued on as slaves under Tevinter. There was an ancient enclave in the Brecillian Forest because we find the spirit of an arcane warrior there. That seemed to have fallen to some external threat. So it would seem we just need to look for remote locations, possibly underground, to find the other locations of enclaves of ancient elves. Where did Solas rest up for all those millennia since he raised the Veil? There seem an awful lot of loose ends that need explaining as a result of Trespasser. Forgive me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I played Trespasser, but wasn't Solas' stronghold located in some valley surrounded by big fuck-off mountains? It's probably just difficult to find, perhaps inaccessible unless you've got an eluvian or a lot of mountain-climbing gear. Although Skyhold is in a similarly inhospitable location, but nonetheless was settled several times after Solas left it. Hmm. As for the Deep Roads - the dwarves actually know very little of their layout and contents, as I recall, since the Deep Roads are so extensive and have been abandoned/overrun by darkspawn for so long. It's why you had to do a whole expedition in DA2 - nobody knows or remembers what's in the nearby Deep Roads, and if you wait too long, the darkspawn there will resurge and you'll never be able to find out, either. On top of all of that, the ancient elves might've collapsed all tunnels leading down there once they met whatever terrible thing that one codex entry mentions. And yeah it was probably located either in or near a Titan. And on the subject of where Solas was rest - I got my Sundermount theory and I'm sticking to it, even if it is a little shaky. I can't think of any other location, save maybe Solasan, that could fit the bill. It's also possible that wherever he rested up simply hasn't been mentioned/featured in any real way yet. And of course there are an awful lot of loose ends hanging after Trespasser. It was Sequel Hook: The DLC. Hell, we don't even have all of Solas' story yet, since everything about Trespasser seemed to very carefully skirt around his history prior to the rebellion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 18:17:58 GMT
I think the main problem will be the trauma from the Veil being removed, both to the inhabitants of the world and the world itself. The Veil has been effectively holding back the magic and it will then be released in a wave of energy. Which is presumably why Solas believes that the "world will burn in the raw chaos". It is that release of energy that will be the problem rather than the Fade itself. True, there will also be the problem of all the denizens of the Fade being able to pass freely into the material world but I don't think that is what Solas is referring to when he states that he believes everyone is going to die.
As for Sandal's prophesy, when he says that "everyone will be just like they were", that could mean that everyone will be returned to being a spirit. I have long speculated that this is why Solas feels his actions are compatible with his belief that all freewill people have the right to exist. If everyone is freed from their mortal body and becomes a spirit, they will still "exist", just not as they currently do. Both humans and elves seem to believe that when you die your spirit either returns to the Fade or passes through it to somewhere else. After all Andraste did regard to Fade as the source of life, the Wellspring of Creation.
If may be that Solas is wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) and dropping the Veil will not result in immediate annihilation for the races of the material world but at the moment that is all anyone in Thedas has to go on when deciding what to do about Solas and his plan. There is also the added complication that Solas also believes that dropping the Veil will release the Evanuris. Whilst he claims to have a plan to deal with this, if that fails then anyone who does survive the dropping of the Veil will be faced with seven (or more?) rather angry mage/gods, likely in dragon form. If the Fade doesn't crisp you, then probably the Evanuris will instead.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 5, 2016 18:20:07 GMT
Hold on,let's put aside the prophecy of Sandal that never made sense to me(Just as the majority of the prophecies in DA because ultimately the writers can always change their plans) but who is telling you that people will not die as a consequence to not being suited to live in a world without the veil? Who is telling you that people will die as a consequence of the Veil being dropped? That was my point in the original post, that Solas never states that the Veil being dropped will kill everyone, people merely have been assuming that this is the case. Solas only ever states that the transition will be catastrophic as the two worlds merge back into the state they originally existed in. The thing is there we see no biological distinction between the Ancient Elves and modern Elves, save for that the Ancient Elves know that they have been diminished. Solas, Abelas and Felassan all lost immortality when the Veil was created, so there's no reason to believe the modern Elves won't regain it once the Veil is lifted. @midnight Tea; Strictly speaking, the lore never stated that physical contact with the Fade is lethal... just the transition between the two planes of existence is. The Veil makes it near-impossible for someone to physically enter (or leave) the Fade, likely something that was intentionally designed by Solas to prevent the Evanuris from escaping their eternal prison. This is why the Magisters Sidereal had to figure out a way for them to enter safely, as well as why Solas (and later Corypheus) required the Anchor to protect themselves when planning to enter the Fade. We don't necessarily know it was the Fade that did that. For all we know the Eluvians present in the Fade were smashed or smashed so no-one could leave. Those corpses like those trapped in the Vir Dirthara, the unlucky people trapped when the Veil dropped and left to starve or be slain by the Fade's native denizens. Furthermore, the Crossroads and Vir Dirthara are mentioned as constructs built into a pocket of the Fade and thus share many of the same properties, yet people can survive there perfectly fine without the Inquisitor's presence to extend the Anchor's protection onto them. (It's true the Crossroads is not the Fade, but according to Morrigan, it is close and will eventually be reabsorbed back into the Fade proper) In an OGB worldstate, Kieran even demonstrates the ability to redirect an Eluvian to let him venture into the Fade and was completely unscathed. The Eluvians likely operate in the same manner as the Anchor and are capable of protect the traveller during transit between two different realms. It's likely that Solas decided upon using the Anchor to enter the Fade, rather than an Eluvian, because the Eluvian option was out of the question. This scenario has a lot of evidence backing it up, as we know from TME and Trespasser his attempt to find the password to unseal the network failed, thanks to Felassan and Briala. Our trips to the Fade in Inquisition show most of them have been destroyed and Morrigan tells us that Kieran must have used a lot of power to redirect it in such a manner, power we know that Solas lacks due to his extensive slumber. (It's possible that the "Pillars of Dumat" that the Magisters Sidereal used to enter the Fade was actually an Eluvian, or some similar device. It would explain why the Seven are said to have needed a lot of lyrium and Elven blood to power it up. Morrigan also had to pump a lot of power into an Eluvian in Witch Hunt to jailbreak it long enough for her to use it.) Morrigan may have been right about Corypheus planning to use an Eluvian to try to enter the Fade, after he failed to reacquire the Anchor at Haven. We thought she was wrong when we learn he was after the Well of Sorrows at the Temple of Mythal... but that might have been part of the plan. After his Vessel gained knowledge of Ancient Elven secrets, they could locate and/or unlock the Eluvian for him. We see a glimpse of what this might look like during "In Hushed Whispers", as according to Future!Solas; "The Veil is shattered. There is no boundary now between the world and the Fade".That there are those still alive in the future - if you can call their hellish existence "living" - would further back up the idea that exposure to Fade is not fatal, only travelling between the two without any means of protection is. Makes you wonder if the Elves in that Dark Future are immortal as a result of the Veil dropping? Could that be one of the reasons why Fiona is still alive, despite being almost entirely encased in Red Lyrium?
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 18:23:51 GMT
About the stripweed around Fen'Harel's sanctuary. According to Dorian it "looks like grass, stings like a knife and causes sores if you so much as brush up against it". He also states that there are fields of it so far as the eye can see. So to my mind that would indicate that it was planted deliberately in order to keep people away, likely to deter the followers of Andruil in particular, who I see as the original Slave Hunters of Thedas.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 18:45:58 GMT
<snip> There is also the added complication that Solas also believes that dropping the Veil will release the Evanuris. Whilst he claims to have a plan to deal with this, if that fails then anyone who does survive the dropping of the Veil will be faced with seven (or more?) rather angry mage/gods, likely in dragon form. If the Fade doesn't crisp you, then probably the Evanuris will instead. The Evanuris might just eat everyone instead. I mean, they have to be hungry after being asleep for so long, right? Edit: Oh, FFS AGAIN?! *more Jedi handwaving* You see an awesome Solas pic here.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 18:48:15 GMT
<snip> The thing is there we see no biological distinction between the Ancient Elves and modern Elves, save for that the Ancient Elves know that they have been diminished. Solas, Abelas and Felassan all lost immortality when the Veil was created, so there's no reason to believe the modern Elves won't regain it once the Veil is lifted. <snip> Just to be a picker of nits, we don't actually know that they lost their immortality.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 19:03:16 GMT
If it was passing the Veil that was deadly, Id on't think we'd find those burned bodies reaching for eluvians in the Fade. Not to mention all the creatures we find near places where the Veil is thin, oftentimes dubbed to be "Fade-touched" (the DAO/DA2 codex on giant spiders directly addresses the issue of possibly Fade leaking through thinned veil and affecting creatures). There are also some adverse effects on minds of mages studying raw Fade, as evidenced by Rift-mage specialization teacher and group they represent. How much of what we see in the Fade is real real? At Adamant, are those actually the bodies of people or were they created by the Nightmare to freak us out? It's possible that a lot of what we see in the Fade isn't physically real. What is in the Fade is created in relation to the real world, whether literal or symbolic. It's been underlined several times in the story that spirits can't really create much on their own, they can only recreate. I mean, I don't see people questioning whether symbolic tombs with companions biggest fears are real, or whether a codex describing Corypheus is real, or whether whispers in Red Lyrium are real - so why should they dismiss anything else, especially with BW's propensity to leave clues in plain sight? (wolves, yo!) You're missing the point. Whether the creatures are affected by magic coming from the Fade, or in it, doesn't change the fact that they both have been affected by energies emanating from the Fade. And yes, the codex for Rift Mage does mantion one of the mages death - we're not really sure what they were dong that led to it, other than they've tampered with magic they didn't really understand. But the rift is a place where the Veil is TORN. Technically the rift is a spot *where's there no Veil* or it's severely limited, hence creatures from one side can be pulled to another. So basically that's like saying that's like saying that someone got killed by the wall that has shielded someone from a pool of lava - by ignoring the fact that what they did is they actually fell through a hole in the wall, hence the wall itself couldn't have hurt them
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 19:07:50 GMT
<snip> The thing is there we see no biological distinction between the Ancient Elves and modern Elves, save for that the Ancient Elves know that they have been diminished. Solas, Abelas and Felassan all lost immortality when the Veil was created, so there's no reason to believe the modern Elves won't regain it once the Veil is lifted. <snip> Just to be a picker of nits, we don't actually know that they lost their immortality. I'd say they didn't. We hear nothing from Abelas about them losing their immortality - in fact from the things he said it'd appear that he's resigned to pretty much either eternal servitude to his dead goddess, or Uthenera.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 5, 2016 19:12:12 GMT
Just to be a picker of nits, we don't actually know that they lost their immortality. When you ask Solas about the legends of Elven immortality in the main game, he reveals it was an inherent part of their nature. In Trespasser he further expands on this to reveal that he was the reason that the Elves lost their immortality after the Veil was created, because it lessened their connection to the Fade. From this it's safe to assume that the Ancient Elves are just as mortal as the Modern Elves, the only distinction being that they remember their immortality. In one of the codex entries you can read if you drank from the Well, it reveals that Abelas has difficulty explaining to the Sentinels born post-Veil what life was like before, when they had not been diminished and when their Gods walked among them. "We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter Uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been."While this codex admittedly does not explicitly state they are mortal, the repeated mentions of "what they lost" and "should have been" would indicate he's talking about their immortality having been lost. That the Sentinels have to repeatedly "awaken" to guard the temple, would further back up the idea that all Ancient Elves are now mortal and the only way they have survived to the modern age is because Uthenera allows them to sleep through the centuries, rather than taking the slow path.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 19:12:58 GMT
About the stripweed around Fen'Harel's sanctuary. According to Dorian it "looks like grass, stings like a knife and causes sores if you so much as brush up against it". He also states that there are fields of it so far as the eye can see. So to my mind that would indicate that it was planted deliberately in order to keep people away, likely to deter the followers of Andruil in particular, who I see as the original Slave Hunters of Thedas. Actually, I think the stripweed was likely mentioned to give a sense that you weren't in southern Thedas anymore. As in, this plant was not native to Orlais or Ferelden, but was common in Tevinter, enough so that Dorian was familiar with it, and the rest of the party was not. So that implied to me that the temple was in northern Thedas, somewhere in Tevinter. It could have been planted as a security method, too, but that wasn't my first thought when Dorian was the one who brought it up, rather than say an old campaigner like Blackwall or Cassandra.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 19:15:42 GMT
About the stripweed around Fen'Harel's sanctuary. According to Dorian it "looks like grass, stings like a knife and causes sores if you so much as brush up against it". He also states that there are fields of it so far as the eye can see. So to my mind that would indicate that it was planted deliberately in order to keep people away, likely to deter the followers of Andruil in particular, who I see as the original Slave Hunters of Thedas. You're talking about a perspective of someone who is severely allergic to the thing. Let's not forget after all that despite seeing 'fields of stripweed as far as the eye can see', the group is actually quite far away from them when he makes that comment... and Dorian still managed to catch hay fever. And let us not forget that Dorian has quite a bit of theatrical flair that results in him making humorous, hyperbolic statements from time to time - that he says that there are fields of stripweed (which he dislikes... because allergy) as far as the eye can see doesn't mean that Fen'Harel's sanctuary is actually 100% surrounded by the thing or that it's as vile as he describes.
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Post by melbella on Nov 5, 2016 19:19:03 GMT
About the stripweed around Fen'Harel's sanctuary. According to Dorian it "looks like grass, stings like a knife and causes sores if you so much as brush up against it". He also states that there are fields of it so far as the eye can see. So to my mind that would indicate that it was planted deliberately in order to keep people away, likely to deter the followers of Andruil in particular, who I see as the original Slave Hunters of Thedas. You're talking about a perspective of someone who is severely allergic to the thing. Let's not forget after all that despite seeing 'fields of stripweed as far as the eye can see', the group is actually quite far away from them when he makes that comment... and Dorian still managed to catch hay fever.
And let us not forget that Dorian has quite a bit of theatrical flair that results in him making humorous, hyperbolic statements from time to time - that he says that there are fields of stripweed (which he dislikes... because allergy) as far as the eye can see doesn't mean that Fen'Harel's sanctuary is actually 100% surrounded by the thing or that it's as vile as he describes.
The "hay fever" only happens if Dorian and Bull are in a romance, and if both are in your party at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 19:28:38 GMT
I just want to say that this thread of conversation brings new meaning to the phrase "deep in the weeds".
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 19:29:23 GMT
How much of what we see in the Fade is real real? At Adamant, are those actually the bodies of people or were they created by the Nightmare to freak us out? It's possible that a lot of what we see in the Fade isn't physically real. What is in the Fade is created in relation to the real world, whether literal or symbolic. It's been underlined several times in the story that spirits can't really create much on their own, they can only recreate. I mean, I don't see people questioning whether symbolic tombs with companions biggest fears are real, or whether a codex describing Corypheus is real, or whether whispers in Red Lyrium are real - so why should they dismiss anything else, especially with BW's propensity to leave clues in plain sight? (wolves, yo!) You're missing the point. Whether the creatures are affected by magic coming from the Fade, or in it, doesn't change the fact that they both have been affected by energies emanating from the Fade. And yes, the codex for Rift Mage does mantion one of the mages death - we're not really sure what they were dong that led to it, other than they've tampered with magic they didn't really understand. But the rift is a place where the Veil is TORN. Technically the rift is a spot *where's there no Veil* or it's severely limited, hence creatures from one side can be pulled to another. So basically that's like saying that's like saying that someone got killed by the wall that has shielded someone from a pool of lava - by ignoring the fact that what they did is they actually entered a hole in the wall, hence the wall itself couldn't have hurt them I really don't understand where you're trying to go with "people aren't saying the other stuff in the Fade isn't real" ... it really seems to have like no bearing on this discussion of whether or not those corpses were physically real or not. The Nightmare goes into everyone's heads and finds out what scares them and puts that in the Fade. Hence, the gravestones. I didn't say the things we saw definitely weren't real, I said they MIGHT NOT be real. Like, I don't know but it's a possibility. Like all of that red lyrium, people find that scary, probably some of your companions do; people find Corypheus scary (*snicker*) so hey, look stuff about Corypheus, etc. But maybe the Nightmare did somehow get a Claw of Dumat from that altar Corypheus made, I have no idea. I'm not missing the point. Being affected by energy from the Fade does not mean that being in the Fade itself would kill a creature. That was my point. And actually, Your Trainer was a part of a group of mages (DA wiki says 20 mages) studying the rifts and she was the only survivor. I also get the feeling that a rift in the Veil is not exactly like a hole in a wall. Wasn't there something in the game that said only the Inquisitor could safely pass through them because of the Anchor? I don't know, I'm too tired and sick (stupid cold) to go look. I just vaguely remember something because I thought it was odd that the Inquisitor apparently safely brought everyone else from Adamant plus Hawke and Warden (Stroud/Alistair/Loghain).
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 19:41:51 GMT
Just to be a picker of nits, we don't actually know that they lost their immortality. When you ask Solas about the legends of Elven immortality in the main game, he reveals it was an inherent part of their nature. In Trespasser he further expands on this to reveal that he was the reason that the Elves lost their immortality after the Veil was created, because it lessened their connection to the Fade. From this it's safe to assume that the Ancient Elves are just as mortal as the Modern Elves, the only distinction being that they remember their immortality. In one of the codex entries you can read if you drank from the Well, it reveals that Abelas has difficulty explaining to the Sentinels born post-Veil what life was like before, when they had not been diminished and when their Gods walked among them. "We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter Uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been."While this codex admittedly does not explicitly state they are mortal, the repeated mentions of "what they lost" and "should have been" would indicate he's talking about their immortality having been lost. That the Sentinels have to repeatedly "awaken" to guard the temple, would further back up the idea that all Ancient Elves are now mortal and the only way they have survived to the modern age is because Uthenera allows them to sleep through the centuries, rather than taking the slow path. I think part of my problem with that codex is that the line reads, "without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been." If the Veil removed their immortality than having "the wise" leading them would be completely irrelevant. No amount of wisdom or leadership would change that. But mostly, I (personally) just try very hard not to assume anything about DA unless it's explicitly stated and even then if the statement is from an in-game perspective (like the codex entries), I try to take them with a grain of salt. My assumptions usually come back to bite me in the ass.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 19:43:12 GMT
That hayfever thing was ridiculous. Dorian is quite okay with the stripweed provided he is not in a romance with Bull. If anything that would suggest that something about Bull has compromised his immune system, although the reality was the writer just wanted to introduce what they saw as something "cute" about their romance. So the comment about the stripweed is not an exaggeration brought on by his own dislike of the stuff. There is no reason to think that the symptoms he describes do not apply to everyone. It probably does indicate that the region we were in was in northern Thedas but you can see that the stripweed stretches to the horizon; you don't need Dorian to you that. I assumed that the name "stripweed" is likely because it does cause lacerations that strip the skin from your body.
As for the fatal effects of dropping the Veil, this is not something that players assume, Solas actually states it will be the result. "If they must die, let them die in peace". You can actually ask him, "Why does this world have to die?" He doesn't contradict your assumption, just evades giving you a justification. In Hushed Whispers the Veil has been removed in a gradual way, a bleeding together rather than an instant removal. This is why I think it is the release of energy that causes the fatalities rather than simply reuniting the two planes of existence. Mind you, from what we are given to understand, there is not much left alive outside of Redcliffe Castle by the time we arrive in the future, purely through the activities of the rampant demons. The gradual deterioration of the Veil probably had the effect of twisting the benign spirits into demons, whereas Solas probably feels that an instant drop will leave the majority of benign spirits untouched. They will then be able to recreate the world that he has imagined from his memories.
Solas also quite clearly states in Trespasser that it was not humans that caused the elves to lose their immortality but him, specifically through raising the Veil. This is why the ancient ones stay in Uthenera as much as possible in order to wait out the time until things are restored to normal. What is not explained is how they know this will happen. However, clearly there was some idea in the past that the gods would eventually return to aid them, which was handed down the years and became part of the Dalish belief "when we remember what it is to be true elves our gods will return to us". What was not passed on was the full history of what happened and why, or the fact that beyond a certain point the mortal elves no longer qualified for restoration, having apparently gone too far from what they were to be recognised as kin by the ancient ones.
The ancient elves ability to enter Uthenera seems to be what marks them out from modern elves, the latter being condemned to live and die in the normal way. I suspect that just as the Crossroads is gradually deteriorating through its severance from the Fade, so the ability to cheat death through Uthenera is also likely being undermined or the same reason. They still age in eternal hibernation, just much more slowly but eventually they will reached the point where they will die. It is likely not that far off, which is why Solas feels he must take action in order to "save" them. Otherwise his insistence that he is only doing what anyone would to save their people does not really make sense. Apart from the odd intrusion into the area of their sanctuary, the ancient elves do not appear to be under immediate threat, unless of course there is something more to the Blight that Solas knows about but has yet to be revealed. It may well be that he believes the instant release of magical energy is necessary in order to cleanse the world of the Blight and if he doesn't do this, everyone will eventually be doomed anyway.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 19:45:23 GMT
You're talking about a perspective of someone who is severely allergic to the thing. Let's not forget after all that despite seeing 'fields of stripweed as far as the eye can see', the group is actually quite far away from them when he makes that comment... and Dorian still managed to catch hay fever.
And let us not forget that Dorian has quite a bit of theatrical flair that results in him making humorous, hyperbolic statements from time to time - that he says that there are fields of stripweed (which he dislikes... because allergy) as far as the eye can see doesn't mean that Fen'Harel's sanctuary is actually 100% surrounded by the thing or that it's as vile as he describes.
The "hay fever" only happens if Dorian and Bull are in a romance, and if both are in your party at the time.
That's weird. I mean, why would the hay fever only happen if they're in a relationship and both in the party at the time ... if the answer is obvious, someone take pity and explain it to me. My brain might be too tired and sick to put the pieces together.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 19:48:02 GMT
I'm not so sure that it's being in the Fade itself that's deadly but physically passing through the Veil that's deadly. I tend to lean toward crossing the Veil as being dangerous more so than the Fade being so toxic that contact is almost a death sentence. What is dangerous are the demons who inhabit the Fade. As seen with the initial scene and the creepy little spiders sent after the Herald. Creepy little spiders were sent by the Nightmare, who had vested interest in getting the Herald. Actually no - Morrigan explains to us (in non-OGB world-state, after she gains the power of the Well and studies actual ancient elvhen documents) that most eluvians were shut down during a grand conflict of sorts, which now we may safely assume was Fen'Harel's rebellion. So no - the Creation of the Veil didn't shut most of them down, even if it did a lot of damage by itself. Also - you have to pay a bit more attention to visual clues. Think about it: if the explanation for bodies surrounding eluvians was that they've just shut down and people couldn't get through, the placement and state of the bodies wouldn't suggest that they've died a fast, terrible death while trying to reach eluvians. We don't see bodies preserved banging the closed entrance or perhaps groups huddled together in failed hope that they'd reopen one day (we don't see that in Vir Dirthara, for example). No, what we see is bodies in position that suggest people were crawling or running towards eluvians, only to be incinerated even before they've managed to even get to them. Also - you can't forget that people who enter the Fade in OGB states are all unique in their own right. Neither Inquisitor, nor Flemeth, nor Kieran, note ven Morrigan are your regular Thedosian mortals. Well, that's not entirely correct. The Fade part we enter under Adamant doesn't budge or shift according to people's fears or desires - what it is is pretty much entirely governed by Nightmare. Solas even tells us that the demon controls that section of the Fade and since it's the dominant will in the area, it's Nightmare's will that seems to shape it the most. Also - I'm not sure what Inky or Morrigan could expect when they've entered fade through eluvian in Skyhold, but the Fade there seemed pretty stable, no matter of the world-state and, in fact, seems to have roughly reflected Skyhold. Honestly, while Solas is one of the staunchest supporters of free will and dislikes imposing his will on others, I don't really think he'd be in such bad mood over what he has to do, if all it happened was people suddenly discovering they have magical gifts and inexplicable mood swings...
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Post by melbella on Nov 5, 2016 19:55:48 GMT
The "hay fever" only happens if Dorian and Bull are in a romance, and if both are in your party at the time.
That's weird. I mean, why would the hay fever only happen if they're in a relationship and both in the party at the time ... if the answer is obvious, someone take pity and explain it to me. My brain might be too tired and sick to put the pieces together. See gervaise21 's response below. It's a banter to supposedly show Bull being concerned over Dorian. I don't take it that way and kind of find it offensive. But, that's a whole other topic I won't get into here.
That hayfever thing was ridiculous. Dorian is quite okay with the stripweed provided he is not in a romance with Bull. If anything that would suggest that something about Bull has compromised his immune system, although the reality was the writer just wanted to introduce what they saw as something "cute" about their romance. The banter starts at around 3:20
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 20:08:10 GMT
I'm perfectly well aware of the stripweed conversation between Dorian and Bull, which is why I say it is ridiculous since it only occurs if they are in a romance and they are both in the party. It really annoyed me when I saw that the Wiki said that Dorian is allergic to stripweed. No he isn't. In every other instance when you reach that place, he is not allergic, he does not sneeze, he does not say anything that would suggest it affects him personally. If they wanted to make him allergic, they should have done this on every play through, with just the bit about the hankie only occurring if Bull is there and in a romance with him (which is the bit that I meant they thought was cute). In all of my games, Dorian is not allergic to stripweed.
I didn't personally find the conversation between the two of them indicative of Bull being caring but actually rather patronising and embarrassing but it is not something I have to bother about in my actual games.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 20:11:44 GMT
I really don't understand where you're trying to go with "people aren't saying the other stuff in the Fade isn't real" ... it really seems to have like no bearing on this discussion of whether or not those corpses were physically real or not. The Nightmare goes into everyone's heads and finds out what scares them and puts that in the Fade. Hence, the gravestones. I didn't say the things we saw definitely weren't real, I said they MIGHT NOT be real. Like, I don't know but it's a possibility. Like all of that red lyrium, people find that scary, probably some of your companions do; people find Corypheus scary (*snicker*) so hey, look stuff about Corypheus, etc. But maybe the Nightmare did somehow get a Claw of Dumat from that altar Corypheus made, I have no idea. Well, this time I am confused. You've responded to my point about the bodies by suggesting that they're not real, basically suggesting that the whole 'bodies of people rushing towards eluvians' being incinerated is either a figment of the, well' Fade or some sort of red herring, instead of a real clue. I've responded that nobody really questions the validity of other clues we find in the Fade, tombs or red lyrium included. Whether the bodies were 'physically real' is entirely beside the point, because whether they're real or a mere memory doesn't change the fact that they were likely there for a reason. If living creatures can be severely affected merely by energies emanating from the Fade, it's not hard to imagine what could/can happen if the whole creature is immersed by it. Aw, hope you're feeling better. If it's any consolation, I am dealing with some severe back pains :/ But anyhow - saying that "Inquisitor is the only one who can cross the rift" really doesn't tell us much, because it also applies to "X is the only person who can go through a hole in that wall (and not die from lava on the other side)". I'd also like to point out that our resident Fade Nerd seemed to never be really that impressed by Inky crossing the Veil, but walking the Fade. Both times when he mentions it (Haven scene or under Adamant) he explicitly mentions that it's the whole 'physically Fade-walking and surviving it' is what amazes him the most. He even makes it a point to mention that he is the one who studied the Fade more than anyone else alive, yet he's only able to do it in dreams. And he's an ancient elf! From times there was no Veil!
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