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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 20:17:05 GMT
That's weird. I mean, why would the hay fever only happen if they're in a relationship and both in the party at the time ... if the answer is obvious, someone take pity and explain it to me. My brain might be too tired and sick to put the pieces together. See gervaise21 's response below. It's a banter to supposedly show Bull being concerned over Dorian. I don't take it that way and kind of find it offensive. But, that's a whole other topic I won't get into here.
That hayfever thing was ridiculous. Dorian is quite okay with the stripweed provided he is not in a romance with Bull. If anything that would suggest that something about Bull has compromised his immune system, although the reality was the writer just wanted to introduce what they saw as something "cute" about their romance. The banter starts at around 3:20
Thanks for linking to it .. I understand now; still think it's weird though. Actually I think it's even more weird now.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2016 20:22:18 GMT
From what I understood from Solas, there were always two states of existence during the time of the ancient elves, the Waking World and the Fade. The difference between then and now was that there was no barrier between the two, so spirits could pass freely into the Waking World and the elves were mentally connected in a way that allowed them to draw energy from the Fade that stopped them from aging. From the memories in the Library, it would seem that the elves did not physically enter the Fade even then but explored it whilst meditating in uthenera. So it is true that it was not meant to be a place you entered physically and likely dangerous if you did, if nothing else because the constantly shifting nature of the place might cause you to lose yourself within in.
The Crossroads and much of the elven empire seem to have been deliberately constructed in such a way as to bridge the two realities, placing those who wished to explore the Fade that much closer to it without actually having to enter it.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 5, 2016 20:23:35 GMT
I'm perfectly well aware of the stripweed conversation between Dorian and Bull, which is why I say it is ridiculous since it only occurs if they are in a romance and they are both in the party. It really annoyed me when I saw that the Wiki said that Dorian is allergic to stripweed. No he isn't. In every other instance when you reach that place, he is not allergic, he does not sneeze, he does not say anything that would suggest it affects him personally. If they wanted to make him allergic, they should have done this on every play through, with just the bit about the hankie only occurring if Bull is there and in a romance with him (which is the bit that I meant they thought was cute). In all of my games, Dorian is not allergic to stripweed.
I didn't personally find the conversation between the two of them indicative of Bull being caring but actually rather patronising and embarrassing but it is not something I have to bother about in my actual games. Uh... I sort of noticed that you seem to think that is something didn't happen in one playthrough it is somehow invalidated. No, it isn't. There are entire plot points that may not exist in one playthrough or another, and they're still valid and canon, at least in a sense that they say something about character or event or else. That's how DA works. So if Dorian starts sneezing when he has contact with stripweed, then he is allergic to stripweed. It's canon. End of story. There could be multiple reasons why Dorian doesn't say anything when he's not in relation with Bull or isn't there with Bull that go beyond writers trying to make matters cute. Dorian in relationship with Bull may simply be more chatty. And he might've been sneezing in PT when he's not in relationship, but nobody really paid that much attention to it - after all, there's the entire 'holy-moly-we're-in-an-ancient-temple-of-Fen'Harel-who-turns-out-to-be-a-rebel-and-there-are-Qunari-here-as-well!' thing going on... I also don't see anything patronizing in that exchange. I find such assessment bizarre, same way I find people deeming their relationship as abusive bizarre.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 5, 2016 20:58:38 GMT
I really don't understand where you're trying to go with "people aren't saying the other stuff in the Fade isn't real" ... it really seems to have like no bearing on this discussion of whether or not those corpses were physically real or not. The Nightmare goes into everyone's heads and finds out what scares them and puts that in the Fade. Hence, the gravestones. I didn't say the things we saw definitely weren't real, I said they MIGHT NOT be real. Like, I don't know but it's a possibility. Like all of that red lyrium, people find that scary, probably some of your companions do; people find Corypheus scary (*snicker*) so hey, look stuff about Corypheus, etc. But maybe the Nightmare did somehow get a Claw of Dumat from that altar Corypheus made, I have no idea. Well, this time I am confused. You've responded to my point about the bodies by suggesting that they're not real, basically suggesting that the whole 'bodies of people rushing towards eluvians' being incinerated is either a figment of the, well' Fade or some sort of red herring, instead of a real clue. I've responded that nobody really questions the validity of other clues we find in the Fade, tombs or red lyrium included. Whether the bodies were 'physically real' is entirely beside the point, because whether they're real or a mere memory doesn't change the fact that they were likely there for a reason. If living creatures can be severely affected merely by energies emanating from the Fade, it's not hard to imagine what could/can happen if the whole creature is immersed by it. Aw, hope you're feeling better. If it's any consolation, I am dealing with some severe back pains :/ But anyhow - saying that "Inquisitor is the only one who can cross the rift" really doesn't tell us much, because it also applies to "X is the only person who can go through a hole in that wall (and not die from lava on the other side)". I'd also like to point out that our resident Fade Nerd seemed to never be really that impressed by Inky crossing the Veil, but walking the Fade. Both times when he mentions it (Haven scene or under Adamant) he explicitly mentions that it's the whole 'physically Fade-walking and surviving it' is what amazes him the most. He even makes it a point to mention that he is the one who studied the Fade more than anyone else alive, yet he's only able to do it in dreams. And he's an ancient elf! From times there was no Veil! I guess I just don't understand why those bodies *have* to be a clue. Not everything we see in game is indicative of something special. Maybe they are a clue but maybe they're not. Yes, the artists/devs/writers use visual cues/clues ... but not always. Weren't those bodies only near the eluvian that had demons pop up after we clicked on it? Maybe those bodies were just saying, hey if you click on this demons will spawn. Btw, not a consolation ... I don't want you to be in pain just b/c we're having a disagreement lol. I hope you feel better soon too! If I was my mother I would nag you into taking aspirin and using a heating pad but instead I'll just realise you're an adult and probably don't want to be nagged. Actually, as I recall Solas does get surprised that we crossed the Veil ... doesn't he say something like, "the Inquisitor opened a rift, we went through and survived!" Although that statement could be interpreted either way - he's either surprised we went through and survived going through or surprised we went through and are surviving in the Fade.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Nov 5, 2016 23:34:08 GMT
Hold on,let's put aside the prophecy of to live in a world without the veil? Who is telling you that people will die as a consequence of the Veil being dropped? [brThe thing is there we see no biological distinction between the Ancient Elves and modern Elves, save for that the Ancient Elves know that they have been diminished. Solas, Abelas and Felassan all lost immortality when the Veil was created, so there's no reason to believe the modern Elves won't regain it once the Veil is lifted.
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 6, 2016 0:33:17 GMT
I also don't see anything patronizing in that exchange. I find such assessment bizarre, same way I find people deeming their relationship as abusive bizarre. I don't know about abusive, but I know that if I were in Dorian's situation, Bull's ass would've been dumped as soon as he saw it fit to casually chat up friends about our sex life and make blatant sexual advances in front of everyone. I don't particularly enjoy public humiliation. If Dorian's cool with it and just playing at offense, cool. But from the outside looking in it seemed to me like Bull was somewhat unconcerned with Dorian's feelings - which, y'know, doesn't tend to lead to healthy and long-lasting relationships.
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Post by phoray on Nov 6, 2016 0:42:11 GMT
Considering 151 pages, this may have been posted before.
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Post by Solas on Nov 6, 2016 0:42:28 GMT
the evanuris were complete cucks tbh fam
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 6, 2016 1:32:06 GMT
I also don't see anything patronizing in that exchange. I find such assessment bizarre, same way I find people deeming their relationship as abusive bizarre. I don't know about abusive, but I know that if I were in Dorian's situation, Bull's ass would've been dumped as soon as he saw it fit to casually chat up friends about our sex life and make blatant sexual advances in front of everyone. I don't particularly enjoy public humiliation. If Dorian's cool with it and just playing at offense, cool. But from the outside looking in it seemed to me like Bull was somewhat unconcerned with Dorian's feelings - which, y'know, doesn't tend to lead to healthy and long-lasting relationships. Considering that Dorian can pretty shamelessly flirt with both male and female Inquisitors, I think both sides have a very lax approach towards talking about sex life and flirting with others, especially that it's very likely that the whole Adoribull affair likely began as a casual, non-committal think that eventually grew into something stronger. Anyhow, in Trespasser, once it's established that their relationship is serious, I don't really recall Dorian or IB flirting with anyone else.
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Post by melbella on Nov 6, 2016 1:44:46 GMT
I don't know about abusive, but I know that if I were in Dorian's situation, Bull's ass would've been dumped as soon as he saw it fit to casually chat up friends about our sex life and make blatant sexual advances in front of everyone. I don't particularly enjoy public humiliation. If Dorian's cool with it and just playing at offense, cool. But from the outside looking in it seemed to me like Bull was somewhat unconcerned with Dorian's feelings - which, y'know, doesn't tend to lead to healthy and long-lasting relationships. Considering that Dorian can pretty shamelessly flirt with both male and female Inquisitors, I think both sides have a very lax approach towards talking about sex life and flirting with others, especially that it's very likely that the whole Adoribull affair likely began as a casual, non-committal think that eventually grew into something stronger. Anyhow, in Trespasser, once it's established that their relationship is serious, I don't really recall Dorian or IB flirting with anyone else. There's a big difference between flirting, even shamelessly, and blabbing about your private relationship in front of other people, especially when such blabbing appears* to make the other person uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with flirting.
I didn't really care for the Bull romance with my Inquisitor and, as a result, I don't like the Dorian/Bull romance much either, so I avoid taking them together as much as possible. That's one case where the banter bug is actually a good thing, imo.
*I say "appears" since, from an outside observer (me) it seems that Dorian would prefer Bull to stfu about their relationship while they are out in the field. The fact Bull just keeps on talking doesn't say much about his level of respect for Dorian. He just seems to think it's rather funny.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 2:23:34 GMT
That adorable homicidal expression your bb gets, when his Dread Wolf is showing.
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Post by Elessara on Nov 6, 2016 3:16:21 GMT
the evanuris were complete cucks tbh fam You would know. I'm really not sure how you managed to put up with them for as long as you did.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 6, 2016 6:54:21 GMT
As for the fatal effects of dropping the Veil, this is not something that players assume, Solas actually states it will be the result. "If they must die, let them die in peace". You can actually ask him, "Why does this world have to die?" He doesn't contradict your assumption, just evades giving you a justification. In Hushed Whispers the Veil has been removed in a gradual way, a bleeding together rather than an instant removal. This is why I think it is the release of energy that causes the fatalities rather than simply reuniting the two planes of existence. Mind you, from what we are given to understand, there is not much left alive outside of Redcliffe Castle by the time we arrive in the future, purely through the activities of the rampant demons. The gradual deterioration of the Veil probably had the effect of twisting the benign spirits into demons, whereas Solas probably feels that an instant drop will leave the majority of benign spirits untouched. They will then be able to recreate the world that he has imagined from his memories.
Solas also quite clearly states in Trespasser that it was not humans that caused the elves to lose their immortality but him, specifically through raising the Veil. This is why the ancient ones stay in Uthenera as much as possible in order to wait out the time until things are restored to normal. What is not explained is how they know this will happen. However, clearly there was some idea in the past that the gods would eventually return to aid them, which was handed down the years and became part of the Dalish belief "when we remember what it is to be true elves our gods will return to us". What was not passed on was the full history of what happened and why, or the fact that beyond a certain point the mortal elves no longer qualified for restoration, having apparently gone too far from what they were to be recognised as kin by the ancient ones.
The ancient elves ability to enter Uthenera seems to be what marks them out from modern elves, the latter being condemned to live and die in the normal way. I suspect that just as the Crossroads is gradually deteriorating through its severance from the Fade, so the ability to cheat death through Uthenera is also likely being undermined or the same reason. They still age in eternal hibernation, just much more slowly but eventually they will reached the point where they will die. It is likely not that far off, which is why Solas feels he must take action in order to "save" them. Otherwise his insistence that he is only doing what anyone would to save their people does not really make sense. Apart from the odd intrusion into the area of their sanctuary, the ancient elves do not appear to be under immediate threat, unless of course there is something more to the Blight that Solas knows about but has yet to be revealed. It may well be that he believes the instant release of magical energy is necessary in order to cleanse the world of the Blight and if he doesn't do this, everyone will eventually be doomed anyway. I wanted to address the bonded part first, and most specifically. My feelings on it are best summed up as "Maybe. Maybe not." Saying that "the world will die" could mean quite literally that the world itself will die/be destroyed, but is that what we think it means? No, of course not. This might seem stupid to ask, but bear with me. I mention it only to illustrate the nuance of meaning that is often present in a statement. In this case, maybe there's more? It could mean that every living thing in the world, excepting Solas and any of the few capable others will die. This seems highly plausible. It's also the interpretation I've seen used as a "proof" two or three times in posts tonight. A third possibility is that "the world will die" again, just as the work died when the Veil was created. Who knows how many people died. A sprawling, unique civilization was destroyed. The spirits were cut-off from the world. It was bad, to understate it. I've actually used the turn of phrase that Solas' "world had died" before, and it certainly fits. The world of the Dragon Age can die without a total extinction of its peoples. The survivors could conceivably adapt to the new/restored world and claw their way back. Or maybe they can't, because Solas seriously meant "you're all going to burn" when he said, "your world will burn." That's a possibility. I don't know which is true; but I don't think we should assume his words need be taken 100% literally. I also think everyone would agree he hasn't told us even half the story, so I'll wait for further info before I make up my mind. There's still too much fog on the battlefield. I almost forgot the other comment I wanted to make. It was a minor sidebar. I sort of hate "In Hushed Whispers", other than thinking Dorian is awesome. Your comment about the Veil's failure in this future reminded me of a particular part I hate. When you finally arrive outside, a party member comments on how the Veil has disappeared completely! Oh my! Then, fade rifts begin popping open. I tried telling myself they were "temporal distortions", but demons were popping out of them. Fail. That mission is a hot mess. I try to make myself do it, now and then, but I strongly prefer the game's narrative with CotJ, and the CotJ mission itself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2016 13:05:06 GMT
It is one of my annoyances with the writers if that was phrased in such a way to make it symbolic rather than literal. You could take it that he is just referring to the "death" of the current civilisation and social structure but that the races will survive into the new age, just greatly reduced in number, but that is not how it comes across at the time. Role playing my Lavellan, I was definitely given the impression that I and everyone else was going to perish and would already have done so had Corypheus not intervened.
The options you are given for response also seem to assume the same. You either vow to stop him by any means or to "prove him wrong" (about the need to destroy the world). If you are just trying to prove him wrong about the need to drop the Veil in order to restore the elves to what they once were, that is clearly a vain endeavour because the Veil is what brought them to their current state. This is why the "prove you wrong" option is such a puzzle to me, unless his reason for taking the action has more to it than simply restoring the elves. If it is to cleanse the world of the Blight, that would make more sense because then there is a possibility for discovering an alternative means of achieving his end. In fact his words are "I will save the elven people, even if this world has to die". That last bit with "even if" suggests that he is open to alternatives and the focus is on saving the elven people, not necessarily restoring them completely, although currently his plan would achieve both.
I also prefer Champions of the Just because it fits much better with the lore of the world as already established and has less difficulties associated with it. If you did Hushed Whispers and then meet up with Solas at the end, the obvious response to him would be "I've seen the world without the Veil and it was not the paradise you imagine it will be". If his plan is to destroy the Blight, then Hushed Whispers also shows that won't work either. So it really throws up a whole lot of difficulties if someone is trying to use it to show that people will survive removing the Veil.
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Post by illyria on Nov 6, 2016 15:08:48 GMT
Guys.
Sera.
The Sera romance is so great. I'm only at Haven and flirting with her but it's so great.
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Post by forgetmenot on Nov 6, 2016 15:30:40 GMT
Hey guys... So. When is my solas obsession going to go away? Its been a few months now! I thought it was just a phase i was going through. Evidently not. Ugh.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 15:48:58 GMT
Hey guys... So. When is my solas obsession going to go away? Its been a few months now! I thought it was just a phase i was going through. Evidently not. Ugh. Hehe. I've been in the fandom since February of last year, and I'm still very interested in where his story is going to go.
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Post by Solas on Nov 6, 2016 15:53:51 GMT
Hey guys... So. When is my solas obsession going to go away? Its been a few months now! I thought it was just a phase i was going through. Evidently not. Ugh. there is no escape
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Post by lovelykotori on Nov 6, 2016 16:20:46 GMT
Hey guys... So. When is my solas obsession going to go away? Its been a few months now! I thought it was just a phase i was going through. Evidently not. Ugh. I guess it won't lol. I played ME1-3 in between and I still think of Solas xD (but sometimes I think of Garrus too ) As long as there is no DA4 I won't stop thinking xD
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Post by lilyenachaos on Nov 6, 2016 18:31:56 GMT
It won't end for me until there is some sort of closure with his storyline. I think it may be a long wait. Worth it though.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 6, 2016 18:56:26 GMT
What are you talking about? They aren't different at all... unless you count the snazzy armour they wear? Solas and Abelas look no different from any of the other Elves in the entire game, otherwise Solas being an Ancient Elf would have been obvious right away? All the Elves in DAI seem to be slightly taller than in previous games or grow in certain cutscenes (this happens to Cadash and Adaar as well). In a recent playthrough I noticed several times how a Male Lavellan was almost the same height as Dorian and Cassandra. Solas is only slightly taller than a female Lavellan, yet the same height as a m!Lavellan, so unless Lavellan is an Ancient Elf... I don't think that Ancient Elves are any taller than their modern day counterparts? Abelas does not wish to be compared to the modern Elves, not because they aren't the same race, but because they've lost both their immortality and culture. Throughout Masked Empire and DAI, we see Ancient Elves express the belief these qualities are what it means to be an Elf, thus the reason why they look down on modern Elves with pity and derision. Abelas rebukes the Dalish for instance as being "shadows wearing vallaslin"... contempt that makes sense in hindsight as we know the Dalish are so ignorant of the past, they do not even realise they have been branding themselves with slave markings. The Sentinels are marked with the vallaslin to show their devotion and subservience to Mythal, whom they serves as eternal guardians of her temple. To the Sentinels, it probably seems blasphemous for the modern Elves to wear those markings. (A good example from our world is people getting Maori tattoos, which is not only cultural appropriation, but the wear lacks any of the context or significance those tattoos hold to the people whom traditionally wear them. The Dalish are essentially no different than this, "digging up the past to play dress-up" as Sera once describes them.) Again, I don't think that the Ancient Elves are any different from their modern day counterparts. Elitism on their part is more likely the reason they act as if the modern Elves are nothing like them or beneath them... which we have sadly seen in our own world, tends to be often the way people detract from those they are prejudiced against.
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Post by draconaise on Nov 6, 2016 19:14:26 GMT
This is pretty random, but can anyone tell me who I need to take to the Winter Palace with me to get Solas to SMILE when you find Gaspard's captain tied to the bed? I remember the first time I went I had Cass in the party and both her and Solas seemed amused by the whole thing. Last time I played through I brought Cole, Cass, and Solas and all I got was a disapproving statement from Cass and a frowny Solas after we found the dude. I was so disappointed! Do I need Dorian in the party??
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Post by Sifr on Nov 6, 2016 19:38:13 GMT
I think part of my problem with that codex is that the line reads, "without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been." If the Veil removed their immortality than having "the wise" leading them would be completely irrelevant. No amount of wisdom or leadership would change that. But mostly, I (personally) just try very hard not to assume anything about DA unless it's explicitly stated and even then if the statement is from an in-game perspective (like the codex entries), I try to take them with a grain of salt. My assumptions usually come back to bite me in the ass. Elven culture has a lot of emphasis on respecting the wisdom of the Elders of your community, something that lasted since the time of the Ancient Elves, through to the Dalish and even has been retained by the City Elves. In Elvhenan, the Elders were in charge and often entered Uthenera for a year and day, seeking wisdom from spirits they could return to spread among the People. A lot of these Elders were slain where they slept - likely by the slaves they owned or rivals - when their Empire fell and they turned on each other. Without immortality, no Elder could hope to live long enough to attain the level of wisdom that existed before the Veil. Their time in Uthenera would not be spent seeking wisdom, but merely to prolong their lives, which also means they have less time in the waking world to dispense wisdom or try to lead their people. I think that was the point of what Abelas meant. Mortality created a massive paradigm shift in how their leadership operated. When you can live forever, you don't need to change how you do things, because you can expect everything tomorrow will be the same as it was a century ago... you simply aren't going to be used to adapting on the fly to rapidly changing circumstances, no matter how experienced you are? Losing immortality would have been devastating to the Ancient Elves, not only because it means their lives are now finite, but because they had to try to figure out how to operate in terms of what must be done today, tomorrow and next week if they want to accomplish something. For a culture who Solas states could spent a century performing a ritual spell, you can imagine this would not be something they could easily adjust to. With the death of each Elder who lived before the Veil, the level of knowledge and leadership experience diminishes. Any Elder post-Veil simply hasn't the time to devote themselves to studying the Fade in pursuit of knowledge on how to lead their people... because they can't actually lead their people or use that knowledge, while they're taking a power-nap? Before the Veil, they had all the time in the world to pursue their goals. Post-Veil, they have a lot to do and little time to do it in.
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 6, 2016 19:48:01 GMT
What are you talking about? They aren't different at all... unless you count the snazzy armour they wear? Solas and Abelas look no different from any of the other Elves in the entire game, otherwise Solas being an Ancient Elf would have been obvious right away? All the Elves in DAI seem to be slightly taller than in previous games or grow in certain cutscenes (this happens to Cadash and Adaar as well). In a recent playthrough I noticed several times how a Male Lavellan was almost the same height as Dorian and Cassandra. Solas is only slightly taller than a female Lavellan, yet the same height as a m!Lavellan, so unless Lavellan is an Ancient Elf... I don't think that Ancient Elves are any taller than their modern day counterparts? Solas has a considerably broader physique compared to M!Lavellan, actually, though he's still pretty thin compared to humans. I'm trying to dig up the pictures demonstrating the difference, but all the links I can find go to the old BSN so... yeah. I think he's also supposed to be taller, but as you point out, the heights of the Inquisitors and the various companions change throughout the game, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly how tall everyone's supposed to be. Supposedly it's pretty common for characters in cutscenes to either clip through the floor or float above it so that everyone can sit at a good (But constantly fluctuating) height. EDIT: Yeah I'm having no luck finding it (Doesn't help that my computer's being weirdly slow.) It's also worth pointing out that the body models of the companions change based on what armor they have on. Try putting Bull or Blackwall in the Skin That Stalks, for instance. I think Solas' unique body model gets switched out for the generic elven male one if he's in the Warden armor, too - which is why his head suddenly seems a bit too big for his body. And why he's absurdly ripped in the Avaar armor but painfully thin in the Qunari armor. EDIT Numero Duos: Here's a nice pic that demonstrates it:
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lynroy
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Current Location: Tsushima
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3tWits
PSN: The3tWits
Prime Posts: 24,721
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Current Location: Tsushima
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Post by lynroy on Nov 6, 2016 20:02:29 GMT
Yup, here's an example. Lavellan floats off the ground and Solas' feet clip through ground during fade kiss. Pretty normal.
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