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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2016 21:27:44 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Okay so Lavellan has vallaslin but we know that Felassan had vallaslin. Would Abelas have refused to acknowledge him on that account? City elves do not have vallaslin. If a city elf turned up there would Abelas have treated them any differently to Lavellan? I doubt it. There seems something about Solas which allows Abelas to immediately recognise him as one of his own and he does this right at the beginning before Solas even opens his mouth. Then in case you miss that reference, he confirms it during their later exchange at the Well. May be that have a secret hand signal or something (I'm joking).
Also, if the Inquisitor kills Abelas and the sentinels, Solas criticises them for destroying some of the last "true" elves. If the difference was merely one of immortality and culture, that is something that modern elves could reacquire, if Solas' rescue plan applied to them all. He makes clear it does not. There is something fundamentally different between those elves who were born/came into existence pre-Veil and those who were born after it, which is why dropping the Veil will not restore the modern elves. His rescue plan is to restore the "true" elves to what they once were. I'm guessing that the modern elves will need to die so their spirit can be freed from its mortal shell and then reborn into a post Veil world in order to be restored.
There is some sort of kinship between spirits and elves. One of the memories in the library calls the spirits who never leave the Fade "our brethren of the air" and in Masked Empire it says that Felassan "calmed his breathing until he found his true self inside the shell of his flesh". This being the case, I wonder if Abelas can actually see/sense the "true self" of Solas beneath the shell of his flesh and that is how he knows immediately that he is different from the rest of the party, even Lavellan.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Nov 6, 2016 21:31:06 GMT
Yup, here's an example. Lavellan floats off the ground and Solas' feet clip through ground during fade kiss. Pretty normal. Huh, I did think the kiss made me feel like I was floating on air, I just never realized I literally did!
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Nov 6, 2016 21:33:44 GMT
Hey guys... So. When is my solas obsession going to go away? Its been a few months now! I thought it was just a phase i was going through. Evidently not. Ugh.
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Post by GalentheYounger on Nov 6, 2016 21:51:19 GMT
I just made a new Elven mage Inquisitor solely for the purpose of romancing Solas. I've only experienced the Cullenmance so far and because of the enthusiasm for Solas on this forum I decided to give it a go! This is the first time I am playing as a non human non warrrior character in any game ever. Wish me luck! *mentally prepares sELF for angst and feels*
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Nov 6, 2016 21:59:41 GMT
What are you talking about? They aren't different at all... unless you count the snazzy armour they wear? Solas and Abelas look no different from any of the other Elves in the entire game, otherwise Solas being an Ancient Elf would have been obvious right away? All the Elves in DAI seem to be slightly taller than in previous games or grow in certain cutscenes (this happens to Cadash and Adaar as well). In a recent playthrough I noticed several times how a Male Lavellan was almost the same height as Dorian and Cassandra. Solas is only slightly taller than a female Lavellan, yet the same height as a m!Lavellan, so unless Lavellan is an Ancient Elf... I don't think that Ancient Elves are any taller than their modern day counterparts? Abelas does not wish to be compared to the modern Elves, not because they aren't the same race, but because they've lost both their immortality and culture. Throughout Masked Empire and DAI, we see Ancient Elves express the belief these qualities are what it means to be an Elf, thus the reason why they look down on modern Elves with pity and derision. Abelas rebukes the Dalish for instance as being "shadows wearing vallaslin"... contempt that makes sense in hindsight as we know the Dalish are so ignorant of the past, they do not even realise they have been branding themselves with slave markings. The Sentinels are marked with the vallaslin to show their devotion and subservience to Mythal, whom they serves as eternal guardians of her temple. To the Sentinels, it probably seems blasphemous for the modern Elves to wear those markings. (A good example from our world is people getting Maori tattoos, which is not only cultural appropriation, but the wear lacks any of the context or significance those tattoos hold to the people whom traditionally wear them. The Dalish are essentially no different than this, "digging up the past to play dress-up" as Sera once describes them.) Again, I don't think that the Ancient Elves are any different from their modern day counterparts. Elitism on their part is more likely the reason they act as if the modern Elves are nothing like them or beneath them... which we have sadly seen in our own world, tends to be often the way people detract from those they are prejudiced against. The Ancient elves possess a different body,which is more similar to the body of humans than the one of modern elves.They are not just taller,but also bigger and so far most males i have saw are bald,i don't know if that is the effect of the veil.Solas body isn't the same of modern elves.
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Post by NightSymphony on Nov 7, 2016 0:48:02 GMT
I just made a new Elven mage Inquisitor solely for the purpose of romancing Solas. I've only experienced the Cullenmance so far and because of the enthusiasm for Solas on this forum I decided to give it a go! This is the first time I am playing as a non human non warrrior character in any game ever. Wish me luck! *mentally prepares sELF for angst and feels* Good luck! The Blanketfort will be here when you're done.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Nov 7, 2016 1:20:49 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? *snip* My thought on this is that pre-Veil elves, more in tune with the Fade and their spirit selves, are empathic or possibly even telepathic. And I think that is how Abelas knew, if he didn't actually recognize Fen'Harel himself. I don't have any evidence for this, only hints: 1. OGB Kieran seems able to communicate something to Flemythal without speaking to her. They have a significant glance with an unnatural pause, and after that, Flemythal somehow knows what Kieran wants.
Could it be an animation error? Certainly. But sometimes I think BioWare intentionally puts subtle things in their cutscenes - Patrick Weekes, for example, encouraged fans to compare the post-credits scene of Solas and Flemeth with the end scene of Trespasser to compare similarities between the two.
2. There are undercurrents to all the exchanges between Abelas and Solas in the Temple of Mythal (if you don't attack the Sentinels), from the scene where you first meet Abelas to the one where you decided who will drink from the well. For example, if you ask Solas to try to convince Abelas to let you have the Well, Solas starts speaking and while he speaks, the camera flashes to Abelas. Why do that if what Solas is saying doesn't hold some significance for Abelas? Solas is perhaps tipping Abelas off about his Elvhen-ness in this conversation and Abelas is then using his elfiness to confirm what Solas says.
3. Most significantly, in the Vir Dirthara, the books you read are described as being able to convey images and feelings to you. Check out any number of codices you pick up in the Vir Dirthara to see what I mean. Perhaps ancient elves were used to conveying information using images and feelings rather than words. Then, making "books" that record information in this way would be a natural progression. If they had no telepathic or empathic abilities, I would expect their "written" language to be more mundane... like what you are reading right now.
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Post by lynroy on Nov 7, 2016 2:51:48 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Snip People assume that he did. I never took Abelas's comment about the Inquisitor walking beside one of their own to be him identifying Solas as an ancient elf, but just as an elf. To me it's just another instance of the game showing that they were only going to have a human protagonist. As to his, "Elvhen such as you?" I always took that as him being a bit sarcastic. Top. Damn. No time, recycled screen shot. Source: Screenshot folder
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 7, 2016 3:15:14 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Snip People assume that he did. I never took Abelas's comment about the Inquisitor walking beside one of their own to be him identifying Solas as an ancient elf, but just as an elf. To me it's just another instance of the game showing that they were only going to have a human protagonist. As to his, "Elvhen such as you?" I always took that as him being a bit sarcastic. He pretty obviously recognized Solas - if not as Fen'Harel, then definitely as ancient elf. First - we have a comment he makes when non-elf Inquisitor enters the chamber they first meet. He pretty much straightforwardly tells them "huh, you're travelling with one of our own" - now, why would he do that if he recognized Solas 'only as an elf' when he was quick to denounce elf Inquisitor's elfiness, first saying that they merely look like elvhen, only to squarely tell them in the face "you are not my people" (in relation to Inky and 'shadows wearing vallaslin')? The contrast between how he treats those two is too much to ignore. As for "Elvhen such as you?"... I didn't really see sarcasm there, especially that throughout all of the time we speak with Abelas he's dour and practically humorless. He doesn't dismiss Solas, neither then or when Solas later claims that there is a place for him somewhere else, and in fact seems to be somehow energized by the comment that there might be a place for Sentinels somewhere else. And when Solas speaks to him in elvhen in the end, Abelas almost smiles and looks hopeful. Yeah... he totally recognized his kin. Which in itself strengthens the notion that there's something ancient elves can sense between one another, that modern Thedosians either lack of have it suppressed. I mean, let's face it - we already know for a fact that regular, modern elves can see and sense more than other races in places like Crossroads or in relation to the Fade. So there's nothing standing in the way of claiming that ancient elves may see or sense even more.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 7, 2016 3:17:10 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Okay so Lavellan has vallaslin but we know that Felassan had vallaslin. Would Abelas have refused to acknowledge him on that account? City elves do not have vallaslin. If a city elf turned up there would Abelas have treated them any differently to Lavellan? I doubt it. There seems something about Solas which allows Abelas to immediately recognise him as one of his own and he does this right at the beginning before Solas even opens his mouth. Then in case you miss that reference, he confirms it during their later exchange at the Well. May be that have a secret hand signal or something (I'm joking). I don't get this impression at all. I know exactly which lines you're interpreting in this fashion. I reviewed the scenes to make certain. I just don't agree that this is what is happening. I think you're reading way too much into their few words. I don't think there is anything to indicate that Abelas recognizes Solas as one from his own age. I could be wrong, but, meh. We could see Abelas again, down the road, if Solas is able to recruit him into his service. A more likely scenario would be that he'd reappear in Mythal's service, as he's eternally bound to her, should she choose to reveal herself or call upon her servants.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 7, 2016 3:20:17 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Okay so Lavellan has vallaslin but we know that Felassan had vallaslin. Would Abelas have refused to acknowledge him on that account? City elves do not have vallaslin. If a city elf turned up there would Abelas have treated them any differently to Lavellan? I doubt it. There seems something about Solas which allows Abelas to immediately recognise him as one of his own and he does this right at the beginning before Solas even opens his mouth. Then in case you miss that reference, he confirms it during their later exchange at the Well. May be that have a secret hand signal or something (I'm joking). I don't get this impression at all. I know exactly which lines you're interpreting in this fashion. I reviewed the scenes to make certain. I just don't agree that this is what is happening. I think you're reading way too much into their few words. Problem is that this is not just few words. Pay attention to totality of Solas/Abelas interactions and how differently he treats Solas and elf Inky at the start.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 7, 2016 3:26:56 GMT
I don't get this impression at all. I know exactly which lines you're interpreting in this fashion. I reviewed the scenes to make certain. I just don't agree that this is what is happening. I think you're reading way too much into their few words. Problem is that this is not just few words. Pay attention to totality of Solas/Abelas interactions and how differently he treats Solas and elf Inky at the start. He doesn't, really, in my opinion. He only dismisses Lavellan's claim to be "of my people" when he/she tries to pull "the elf-card" on him in order to leverage access to the Vir Abelasan. Then he got a bit testy and laid bare his true feelings. Solas wisely refused to pull the elf-card for Lavellan when prompted, so he never got slapped down. Never once did Abelas say or do anything to indicate that Solas was anything more to him than Lavellan was.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 7, 2016 3:35:34 GMT
Problem is that this is not just few words. Pay attention to totality of Solas/Abelas interactions and how differently he treats Solas and elf Inky at the start. He doesn't, really, in my opinion. He only dismisses Lavellan's claim to be "of my people" when he/she tries to pull "the elf-card" on him in order to leverage access to the Vir Abelasan. Then he got a bit testy and laid bare his true feelings. Solas wisely refused to pull the elf-card for Lavellan when prompted, so he never got slapped down. Never once did Abelas say or do anything to indicate that Solas was anything more to him than Lavellan was. He only tells Lavellans that they merely look like eves. He downright tells other Inkys that they travel with of his own. That's a very stark distinction. Needless to say, Solas DID indeed played the elf card later in the quest - he adressed Abelas directly 3 times, and his interaction with him and Inkquisitor are entirely different. Not once he was dismissed, in fact he and Abelas looked almost like they were talking in secret code, lol. For more, I refer you to my earlier comment.
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Post by CapricornSun on Nov 7, 2016 3:59:37 GMT
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 7, 2016 4:10:25 GMT
He doesn't, really, in my opinion. He only dismisses Lavellan's claim to be "of my people" when he/she tries to pull "the elf-card" on him in order to leverage access to the Vir Abelasan. Then he got a bit testy and laid bare his true feelings. Solas wisely refused to pull the elf-card for Lavellan when prompted, so he never got slapped down. Never once did Abelas say or do anything to indicate that Solas was anything more to him than Lavellan was. He only tells Lavellans that they merely look like eves. He downright tells other Inkys that they travel with of his own. That's a very stark distinction. Needless to say, Solas DID indeed played the elf card later in the quest - he adressed Abelas directly 3 times, and his interaction with him and Inkquisitor are entirely different. Not once he was dismissed, in fact he and Abelas looked almost like they were talking in secret code, lol. For more, I refer you to my earlier comment. Abelas' acknowledging elves as being his people initially makes sense. "Elves are elves," in a biological sense. He turns a bit testy (not hostile) if the Inquisitor tries to use it to the party's advantage. Abelas lays out the facts then, saying essentially "We are not the same," since elves are not simply elves, culturally. Only after a tentative alliance has been established, and peaceful conversation has been intitiated, do he and Solas exchange words in elvhen. Even then, aside from Solas choosing to engage him in a shared tongue, and Abelas logically responding in kind, Abelas shows no greater respect for Solas than for Lavellan. He shows considerable respect for Lavellan in the conversation at the Vir Abelasan. If someone suggested that Solas' accent and manner of speaking elvhen during those later exchanges might've put Abelas to wondering about his possible origins, I'd agree wholeheartedly. (Then again, how much familiarity would Abelas have with the differences between ancient and modern elvhen speech?) Solas did show proper respect for and knowledge of Abelas' ways, after a fashion; but no more than Lavellan had in completing the rites of the temple, so again... Like I said, I've already reviewed all of the scenes before posting. I think too much is being read into the scenes. I acknowledged I could be wrong; but fans sometimes tend to see more than is really there, particularly with this game. Maybe, at most, Abelas leaves suspicious of Solas' nature. That I've always wondered. To suggest that he immediately, on sight, recognized Solas' ancient nature though seems extremely unlikely.
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 7, 2016 4:10:49 GMT
It's a bit weird, since I agree that Abelas' "Elvhen such as you?" comment sounds like a bitterly sarcastic (And even vaguely accusatory) rejection that Solas turns around into a serious confirmation, but there's no side-stepping around the "one of our own" line.
But Abelas also recognized the Mark as familiar magic, so Solas probably just gives off some similar magic aura that Abelas picked up on.
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Post by phoray on Nov 7, 2016 5:30:33 GMT
You know. All this speculation makes me wonder if, 3 games from now when the series is done, if we'll finally have all the answers. Just straight up facts on what the heck was going on secretly this whole series. Including plot points that were dropped.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 7, 2016 5:41:02 GMT
You know. All this speculation makes me wonder if, 3 games from now when the series is done, if we'll finally have all the answers. Just straight up facts on what the heck was going on secretly this whole series. Including plot points that were dropped. It will be fun, either way, to look back and see how far off base we are with many of our ideas, and to celebrate the ones we nailed.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Nov 7, 2016 5:58:49 GMT
The thing is, if there is nothing different about Solas' appearance to modern elves (other than the lack of hair), how does Abelas immediately know that he is an ancient elf such as him, whilst Lavellan is not? Snip People assume that he did. I never took Abelas's comment about the Inquisitor walking beside one of their own to be him identifying Solas as an ancient elf, but just as an elf. To me it's just another instance of the game showing that they were only going to have a human protagonist. As to his, "Elvhen such as you?" I always took that as him being a bit sarcastic. I gotta say I totally agree with this. The whole context of the conversations when meeting the ancient elves is that they don't regard modern elves as their people.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 7, 2016 7:20:25 GMT
He only tells Lavellans that they merely look like eves. He downright tells other Inkys that they travel with of his own. That's a very stark distinction. Needless to say, Solas DID indeed played the elf card later in the quest - he adressed Abelas directly 3 times, and his interaction with him and Inkquisitor are entirely different. Not once he was dismissed, in fact he and Abelas looked almost like they were talking in secret code, lol. For more, I refer you to my earlier comment. Abelas' acknowledging elves as being his people initially makes sense. "Elves are elves," in a biological sense. Yet he makes it a point to immediately tell Inquisitor that they merely have 'features of those who call themselves Elvhen', while deeming Solas his kin. In other words he spotted some sort of difference, without a word being uttered. He literally calls the Dalish 'shadows' and makes it a big point to lump elf Inkys together with other 'mortals'. That distinction bears significance. This is not just a matter of culture. In fact - how would Abelas know how much they differ, culturally? And why would it matter so much that he'd angrily dismiss any notion that they're associated in any way? And by the way - Inquisitor didn't try to use the whole 'elfy' argument for party's advantage. It's an additional dialogue option, where elf Inquisitor pleads with Abelas to share his knowledge with modern elves and it's obvious that Abelas reacted with irritation not because Inky tries to butter him up in order to advance further into the temple, but because they suggested that they're in any way related. Heck, the dialogue option is called 'the elves need you!'. There's obviously something else going on there, that has made Abelas irritated with the suggestion. What it is we can only guess, but Abelas ain't the only one who sees some sort of distinction between him and modern elves that goes beyond culture. After all, Solas tells Sera 'we are not that far apart, you and I'.... yet they are apart in some way. And he definitely didn't test her cultural knowledge or personality or whatever when he sneakily asked her what or how she feels when she looks at the Breach and she experiences a strange sense of falling into it. Abelas and Solas have three exchanges, not one, and yes - he most definitely shows respect for Solas. At elvhen words from Solas he almost smiles after all. So I don't understand how people can claim otherwise. You yourself say that he reacts with annoyance when elf Inky barely attempts to associate themselves with ancient elves, yet doesn't even flinch on Solas for using the word 'lethallin' (a word Solas uses ONLY for people he feels especially close to) and telling him outright that Abelas can abandon his post because there are other places where he can find his kin - and counts himself into it? And Abelas responds that perhaps indeed there are such places with 'elvhen such as Solas' (and - by implication - him)? The difference between how Abelas treats Solas and Inky is in a different league entirely. They talk like peers. And Abelas talks with everyone else like with an intruder or a child. Yet Solas - without uttering a word and showing up with Inky, whom at time Abelas treated as intruder - immediately got recognized as 'one of his own' and elf Inky (mo matter if they respected Temple's traditions or not) is, immediately dismissed as merely 'elf lookalike'? Come on ... And why would it be 'extremely unlikely' in a universe in which a phenomenon of immediately sensing something or experiencing something differently is very well-established? Regular elves can see more than other races. Literally. They IMMEDIATELY see Crossroads differently than others, in stark detail. So why dismiss a possibility that maybe ancient elves like Abelas sees more when he looks at other people? (I'd like to point out that he also immediately notices Anchor's magic and deems it familiar). Mages have been established since day one to sense and see way more than regular Thedosians. Spirits can sense a whole array of things unnoticeable by regular people. And Grey Wardens literally gain instant 'darkspawn-sensing' powers via Taint. Heck, through entire Inquisition Solas is gently hinted at seeing or sensing way more than regular folk. Solas is an ancient elf. So is Abelas. Like I said, it's a totality of the clues that makes me convinced that there's something going on, albeit the exchanges and different treatment of Solas by Abelas has immediately caught my attention, only to deepen by suspicion after multiple reviews.
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Post by lynroy on Nov 7, 2016 9:05:44 GMT
He pretty obviously recognized Solas - if not as Fen'Harel, then definitely as ancient elf. First - we have a comment he makes when non-elf Inquisitor enters the chamber they first meet. He pretty much straightforwardly tells them "huh, you're travelling with one of our own" - now, why would he do that if he recognized Solas 'only as an elf' when he was quick to denounce elf Inquisitor's elfiness, first saying that they merely look like elvhen, only to squarely tell them in the face "you are not my people" (in relation to Inky and 'shadows wearing vallaslin')? The contrast between how he treats those two is too much to ignore. As for "Elvhen such as you?"... I didn't really see sarcasm there, especially that throughout all of the time we speak with Abelas he's dour and practically humorless. He doesn't dismiss Solas, neither then or when Solas later claims that there is a place for him somewhere else, and in fact seems to be somehow energized by the comment that there might be a place for Sentinels somewhere else. And when Solas speaks to him in elvhen in the end, Abelas almost smiles and looks hopeful. Yeah... he totally recognized his kin. Which in itself strengthens the notion that there's something ancient elves can sense between one another, that modern Thedosians either lack of have it suppressed. I mean, let's face it - we already know for a fact that regular, modern elves can see and sense more than other races in places like Crossroads or in relation to the Fade. So there's nothing standing in the way of claiming that ancient elves may see or sense even more. What you see as obvious, I see as looking too much into it. We are both looking at the same conversations and interactions and coming to different conclusions. I know all the cut scenes and dialogue from the ToM very well. As I've already mentioned, 'walking beside one of our own' could be there because the Inquisitor was originally going to be human only. A Lavellan doesn't get dismissed until they try to play the race card. Sarcasm, disdain, I think Abelas meant to be insulting when he throws that line at Solas, but Solas turns it around on him. I just don't think Abelas recognized Solas right away for what he was. Later on? Sure. I don't like going in circles, I get nauseous real easy and I think it is one of the worst feelings ever, so this is all I will say on the subject.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 7, 2016 9:42:57 GMT
What you see as obvious, I see as looking too much into it. We are both looking at the same conversations and interactions and coming to different conclusions. I know all the cut scenes and dialogue from the ToM very well. As I've already mentioned, 'walking beside one of our own' could be there because the Inquisitor was originally going to be human only. A Lavellan doesn't get dismissed until they try to play the race card. I don't see 'too much into it' - I see it as looking at all available evidence. And I see no reason to dismiss the comment as a leftover from times when the protagonist was human, when they've made it clear that Abelas has a different reaction to elf Inquisitor than they have to Solas. And here's his reaction to Sera: If Abelas goes as far as to call BOTH modern elves we can have in the party as 'elf lookalikes', instead of 'one of our own' like in case of Solas, then the conclusion is fairly clear: we're onto something here.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Nov 7, 2016 9:57:37 GMT
What you see as obvious, I see as looking too much into it. We are both looking at the same conversations and interactions and coming to different conclusions. I know all the cut scenes and dialogue from the ToM very well. As I've already mentioned, 'walking beside one of our own' could be there because the Inquisitor was originally going to be human only. A Lavellan doesn't get dismissed until they try to play the race card. I don't see 'too much into it' - I see it as looking at all available evidence. And I see no reason to dismiss the comment as a leftover from times when the protagonist was human, when they've made it clear that Abelas has a different reaction to elf Inquisitor than they have to Solas. And here's his reaction to Sera: If Abelas goes as far as to call BOTH modern elves we can have in the party as 'elf lookalikes', instead of 'one of our own' like in case of Solas, then the conclusion is fairly clear: we're onto something here. I think you see too much into it. Edit: It's just too easy to come back after finding out what we know later about Solas and read too much into it. I read it as it was first presented and all the dialogue fits just fine... all elves in the party are outsiders. Abelas treats Solas with the same skepticism and disregard as he does any other elf he talks with (read Inquisitor) or talks about (read Sera).
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Post by lynroy on Nov 7, 2016 10:06:46 GMT
As I said, circles. I don't see it the same way you do. Deal. With. it.
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