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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 19, 2016 14:26:57 GMT
There is nothing definitive about what the ancient elves were, just speculation mostly. If you want to discuss these theories, why not pop over to the Back from Uthenera thread so we don't fill up the Solas thread with general elven lore. I'll post there.
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Post by javeart on Nov 19, 2016 14:28:58 GMT
There is nothing definitive about what the ancient elves were, just speculation mostly. If you want to discuss these theories, why not pop over to the Back from Uthenera thread so we don't fill up the Solas thread with general elven lore. I'll post there. Ah, so there's a thread about it specific for this!! I'm sorry, didn't know I'll check that one, thanks
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Post by ddj on Nov 19, 2016 23:50:30 GMT
There are some valid points here. I for one would like to learn a lot more about Solas and his times. His attitude toward the Wardens frankly mirrors my own. Fiona regards them as treacherous. Solas had good reason to be concerned considering the fact that they, alone of all the orders have summoned two demon armies. Their particular join or die, although if you join you get to be a ghoul at best, or a broodmother. I personally believe that Solas' view of the Wardens is more than "I just don't like them." We have only had three games and several books, but the crimes they commit for their view of the greater good. Under that philosophy anything they do is justifiable, unless of course you happen to be one of the victims.
What we really need is a well thought out DA 4. Sooner is better.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 20, 2016 1:24:17 GMT
There are some valid points here. I for one would like to learn a lot more about Solas and his times. His attitude toward the Wardens frankly mirrors my own. Fiona regards them as treacherous. Solas had good reason to be concerned considering the fact that they, alone of all the orders have summoned two demon armies. Their particular join or die, although if you join you get to be a ghoul at best, or a broodmother. I personally believe that Solas' view of the Wardens is more than "I just don't like them." We have only had three games and several books, but the crimes they commit for their view of the greater good. Under that philosophy anything they do is justifiable, unless of course you happen to be one of the victims. What we really need is a well thought out DA 4. Sooner is better. I don't know why - this is just my hunch - I think that we'd have a lot of stuff about Wardens resolved in either a comic (maybe an upcoming Knight-Errant comic that I heard might be happening AFTER the defeat of Corypheus?) or a book. We will likely have some Wardeny stuff in the game, I'm just not sure how much.
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Post by sugarquill on Nov 20, 2016 9:43:44 GMT
Oh my god I am so done with this painting. Waaaayyyyy too many hours spent. I'm gonna go sleep for 12 hours now. canonverse solavellan nsfwish party, titled "Reaper" after the Sia song (or, from my art folder, i'm sorry mom.jpg) much better viewed when you click through for full size! rebloggable linkhope you enjoy, friends
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Nov 20, 2016 13:48:03 GMT
I missed Inquisition's birthday! Well, it was today two years ago that I first played it. The two days between release and my birthday were the longest days eveeeer! I forced myself on a forum blackout too, so I had to resist seeing what everyone was up to! I've never been so hyped about a game's release before, and it really didn't let me down! Cheers for two years of playing a great game and all the wonderful things it created-- fan art, fanfiction, endless speculation, a lovely community, and a SolasxLavellan hell I've willingly drowned myself in!
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 20, 2016 18:03:22 GMT
When did the Wardens summon 2 demon armies? I know about their intention in DAI but that is the only one I am aware of.
Solas' criticism of the Wardens is a valid one, particularly their lack of effort to find an alternative to the Joining/destruction of arch demons solution to the problem of how to end Blights. In fact the majority of criticisms he makes of other people in the game are perfectly reasonable if he wasn't guilty of planning even worse crimes of his own. "The end justifies the means" sums up his current approach perfectly. The Wardens were crazy thinking their demon army idea would ever work but at least they were doing it with the intention of saving all the races of Thedas, not just one.
As for Fiona, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What were her actions in signing up the entire mage rebellion to work for a Tevinter Magister and letting him take over Redcliffe Castle if not treacherous? (To the mages that trusted her as well as the people of Ferelden). Not only that, but in Asunder she claims she left the Wardens with the deliberate intent of returning to the Circle and causing trouble.
Mind you I think everyone was a bit suspect in DAI, including Justinia. She set up the charter for forming the Inquisition and sent Cassandra to find Hawke to lead it before the Conclave. What was she intending doing with her private army if not enforcing whatever decision she deemed most appropriate?
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 20, 2016 20:48:59 GMT
When did the Wardens summon 2 demon armies? I know about their intention in DAI but that is the only one I am aware of. It was in the Soldier's Peak DLC for Origins. Warden Sophia Dryden used blood magic and demon summoning in an attempt to overthrow the then-king of Ferelden, causing the entire Warden order to be banished. S'whole reason why the Fereldan Wardens in Origins are like ten people, instead of the whole fortress they have in Orlais. They've only recently been allowed to come back and rebuild. Also I've heard the theory that Fiona did what she did because she was under the subtle influence of Alexius' blood magic (And/or the influence of any blood mages that managed to infiltrate the rebellion.) Frankly that's the only explanation to me that makes sense, besides the possibility that Fiona's just mind-bendingly stupid. Which, in fairness, a lot of people seem to become mind-bendingly stupid when it comes to Corypheus. The Orb must be a reverse Idiot Ball or something.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Nov 20, 2016 22:03:56 GMT
Also I've heard the theory that Fiona did what she did because she was under the subtle influence of Alexius' blood magic (And/or the influence of any blood mages that managed to infiltrate the rebellion.) Frankly that's the only explanation to me that makes sense, besides the possibility that Fiona's just mind-bendingly stupid. Which, in fairness, a lot of people seem to become mind-bendingly stupid when it comes to Corypheus. The Orb must be a reverse Idiot Ball or something. If you side with the mages instead of the Templars, I feel that it was quite strongly suggested in the game that Fiona was magically influenced to make that decision. Fiona: What has brought you to Redcliffe? Inquisitor: We're here because of your invitation back in Val Royeaux. Fiona: You must be mistaken. I haven't been to Val Royeaux since before the Conclave. Inquisitor: If it wasn't you who invited me here, who was it? Fiona: I... I don't know. Now that you say it, I feel strange. Whoever... or whatever... brought you here, the situation has changed. The free mages have already pledged themselves to the services of the Tevinter Imperium. [The conversation then continues with her explanation that she is indentured to a Magister so she can't negotiate, etc.] I think some people assume it's the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff that contribute to Fiona's confusion, but Redcliffe at this point is still in the normal timeline. So I think she came to Redcliffe after meeting you at Val Royeaux, and was ambushed by Alexius or his cronies at this point, who influenced her mind to submit to Alexius, and made her forget that she had spoken to the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 21, 2016 0:13:49 GMT
Also I've heard the theory that Fiona did what she did because she was under the subtle influence of Alexius' blood magic (And/or the influence of any blood mages that managed to infiltrate the rebellion.) Frankly that's the only explanation to me that makes sense, besides the possibility that Fiona's just mind-bendingly stupid. Which, in fairness, a lot of people seem to become mind-bendingly stupid when it comes to Corypheus. The Orb must be a reverse Idiot Ball or something. If you side with the mages instead of the Templars, I feel that it was quite strongly suggested in the game that Fiona was magically influenced to make that decision. Fiona: What has brought you to Redcliffe? Inquisitor: We're here because of your invitation back in Val Royeaux. Fiona: You must be mistaken. I haven't been to Val Royeaux since before the Conclave. Inquisitor: If it wasn't you who invited me here, who was it? Fiona: I... I don't know. Now that you say it, I feel strange. Whoever... or whatever... brought you here, the situation has changed. The free mages have already pledged themselves to the services of the Tevinter Imperium. [The conversation then continues with her explanation that she is indentured to a Magister so she can't negotiate, etc.] I think some people assume it's the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff that contribute to Fiona's confusion, but Redcliffe at this point is still in the normal timeline. So I think she came to Redcliffe after meeting you at Val Royeaux, and was ambushed by Alexius or his cronies at this point, who influenced her mind to submit to Alexius, and made her forget that she had spoken to the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux. Redcliff is not quite "in the normal timeline", as you say. Alexis went back in time and altered Fiona's personal timeline by establishing the alliance before she met the Inquisitor in Val Royeaux. Apparently, some residual memory or sense of wrongness remained. Between "Asunder", her in-game explanations for her actions, and all in-game context, I'd say it's pretty clear she was not under the effects of blood magic. She willingly allied with Tevinter.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Nov 21, 2016 0:51:15 GMT
Dorian does confirm that Alexius distorted time in order to reach Redcliffe before the Inquisition, you're right. But that's all that's said. I think it's an assumption to say that he did that to get to Fiona before she even went to Val Royeaux. This is one of those ambiguities people either love or hate about BioWare games. I think it's equally plausible that Fiona did go to Val Royeaux and between her return to Redcliffe and the Inquisitor's arrival there may be when Alexius showed up. I think that with or without time magic, it's more plausible that Fiona has a very buried memory of going to Val Royeaux than that she maintains some link to an alternate reality. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by melbella on Nov 21, 2016 1:36:43 GMT
Several of the mages you talk to in Redcliffe say Alexius showed up there only a couple of days after the Conclave explosion. Since the Herald was unconscious for 3 days afterwards, and then had to piecemeal together enough influence to even get a hearing in VR, I'd say Alexius really did mess with time.
Redcliffe time and everywhere else time are no longer the same as soon as Alexius showed up there and worked his magic - literally. It's why so many people get a headache trying to explain the hows and whys of IHW.
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Post by spiritofsolace on Nov 21, 2016 1:59:24 GMT
When you enter redcliffe for the first time and you have Solas in your party he will say something about the veil being altered in a way he is unfamiliar with. That and the fact that the rifts there distort time make it seem as though Alexius did in fact alter time before the inquisitor arrived.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 21, 2016 2:09:39 GMT
Several of the mages you talk to in Redcliffe say Alexius showed up there only a couple of days after the Conclave explosion. Since the Herald was unconscious for 3 days afterwards, and then had to piecemeal together enough influence to even get a hearing in VR, I'd say Alexius really did mess with time. Redcliffe time and everywhere else time are no longer the same as soon as Alexius showed up there and worked his magic - literally. It's why so many people get a headache trying to explain the hows and whys of IHW. Agreed. I wish I were feeling less ill. I don't feel up to fully articulating all of the points I know exist in-game. I'll try to list a few, all the same. There are many signs that the Vints arrived before the meeting in Val Royeaux ever took place, and it's outright stated at least once, as melbella says. We have time-distorting rifts popping around Redcliff, likely not only because Alexius intends to use this crazy time-bending magic, but because it has already been used. (That's how the Vints arrived in such a "timely" fashion. Fiona's pun, not mine.) Solas comments on the Veil feeling wrong, if he's in the party. There's the issue of the Vints somehow managing to overwhelm Fiona and her entourage and then enchant them with blood magic, and to do it with neither casualties, nor evidence nor suspicions. That's not a small task; quite the opposite, in fact. Then, there's Fiona's own clear description of how and why she led the rebellion and ultimately joined with Tevinter. She cited fear and desperation as the reason for the alliance, not confusion or muddled thought that might suggest enchantment. I'm not at all seeing the blood magic angle. I've missed this thread. The MEA forum has been taking a lot of my time and attention, but this little corner of the forum is like a refuge of calm, sane discussion.
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Post by spiritofsolace on Nov 21, 2016 2:21:41 GMT
You know, I wonder if the veil having an unusual effect on time was added just to facilitate IHW or if the writers want to do something with it in the future. Because apparently time magic didn't work without the breach and time magic seems to alter it in a weird way.
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Post by phoray on Nov 21, 2016 2:25:55 GMT
You know, I wonder if the veil having an unusual effect on time was added just to facilitate IHW or if the writers want to do something with it in the future. Because apparently time magic didn't work without the breach and time magic seems to alter it in a weird way. But they did do something with it in the future. Ba dum crash.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 21, 2016 2:28:52 GMT
You know, I wonder if the veil having an unusual effect on time was added just to facilitate IHW or if the writers want to do something with it in the future. Because apparently time magic didn't work without the breach and time magic seems to alter it in a weird way. I hope we've seen the last of it. I'm not a big fan. "Frozen time" magic is one thing. Time travel is a can of worms that DA doesn't need, in my opinion. Who knows, though? It could be absolutely crucial to solving the "Solas problem", down the road.
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Post by phoray on Nov 21, 2016 2:31:36 GMT
You know, I wonder if the veil having an unusual effect on time was added just to facilitate IHW or if the writers want to do something with it in the future. Because apparently time magic didn't work without the breach and time magic seems to alter it in a weird way. I hope we've seen the last of it. I'm not a big fan. "Frozen time" magic is one thing. Time travel is a can of worms that DA doesn't need, in my opinion. Who knows, though? It could be absolutely crucial to solving the "Solas problem", down the road. That sounds like a headache. I absolutely hope not. I don't want to be confused about how I beat the bad guys. It'd be FF8 all over again. I still don't know what the heck was going on in that game.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 21, 2016 2:55:30 GMT
I hope we've seen the last of it. I'm not a big fan. "Frozen time" magic is one thing. Time travel is a can of worms that DA doesn't need, in my opinion. Who knows, though? It could be absolutely crucial to solving the "Solas problem", down the road. That sounds like a headache. I absolutely hope not. I don't want to be confused about how I beat the bad guys. It'd be FF8 all over again. I still don't know what the heck was going on in that game. I was thinking more in terms of Solas using the magic in some way to find a less destructive solution, but I'd hate to see it used again. No more time travel, please. I'm not a big fan of IHW, and the time travel is only one part of it. (I really do hate the time magic, though. They just didn't sell it well.) Honestly, Dorian's heroic role is the only positive of that story path, for me. Otherwise, I find CotJ superior in every way.
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Post by ellawyn on Nov 21, 2016 3:03:26 GMT
I'm not at all seeing the blood magic angle. To clarify - I agree that the line about Fiona's muddledness refers to time travel, not blood magic, but whether or not you can see solid evidence for blood magic is irrelevant. Fiona's actions are a pretty clearly the result of Fiona's writer having her make a dumb decision because the rest of the plotline depended on her making that decision. Same with Clarel and the Wardens deciding suicide-by-darkspawn (And the wholesale slaughter of their comrades on the word of a newcomer) was a better idea than almost literally anything else. There's no evidence of blood magic because it's not the writers who came up with the notion. The idea that Fiona and her rebels were under the control of blood magic is a fix-it theory, a post-mortem attempt by fans to explain away what would otherwise be messy writing. That there is no evidence for it is not as important as the fact that there's no solid evidence against it, either. That's how fanon works. It's a question of author intention versus reader interpretation. The authors didn't intend any deeper meaning. Fiona just decided that was the best course of action because otherwise the quest would've had to be something else, and they probably already had some assets made and lines recorded and deadlines to make and they couldn't just abort for something better. But as the reader you can interpret it however you wish, and if canon does not directly contradict said interpretation, well, no one can say you're wrong. Whether or not you believe it depends on how much validity you lend to fanon. For a different example - consider the people who believe in Indoctrination Theory. Clearly that's not what the writers were going for, but plenty of people swear it's "their" ending because they think it makes more sense, never mind if the writers didn't actually intend for it. Also put me down as someone who hopes we've seen the end of time travel in DA, or if it does return, that it'll do so in a very limited capacity.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 21, 2016 3:19:49 GMT
I'm not at all seeing the blood magic angle. To clarify - I agree that the line about Fiona's muddledness refers to time travel, not blood magic, but whether or not you can see solid evidence for blood magic is irrelevant. Fiona's actions are a pretty clearly the result of Fiona's writer having her make a dumb decision because the rest of the plotline depended on her making that decision. Same with Clarel and the Wardens deciding suicide-by-darkspawn (And the wholesale slaughter of their comrades on the word of a newcomer) was a better idea than almost literally anything else. There's no evidence of blood magic because it's not the writers who came up with the notion. The idea that Fiona and her rebels were under the control of blood magic is a fix-it theory, a post-mortem attempt by fans to explain away what would otherwise be messy writing. That there is no evidence for it is not as important as the fact that there's no solid evidence against it, either. That's how fanon works. It's a question of author intention versus reader interpretation. The authors didn't intend any deeper meaning. Fiona just decided that was the best course of action because otherwise the quest would've had to be something else, and they probably already had some assets made and lines recorded and deadlines to make and they couldn't just abort for something better. But as the reader you can interpret it however you wish, and if canon does not directly contradict said interpretation, well, no one can say you're wrong. Whether or not you believe it depends on how much validity you lend to fanon. For a different example - consider the people who believe in Indoctrination Theory. Clearly that's not what the writers were going for, but plenty of people swear it's "their" ending because they think it makes more sense, never mind if the writers didn't actually intend for it. Also put me down as someone who hopes we've seen the end of time travel in DA, or if it does return, that it'll do so in a very limited capacity. I didn't realize we were discussing fully recognized fanon. I can see how it's a preferable version of events to what they gave us. They had Fiona go full idiot, which is why I almost always go with CotJ. I feel like she leaves my Inquisitor no choice. Old IT. It still has its fans. Those were dark days for nearly everyone.
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