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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 3:44:03 GMT
To be fair, Flemythal has been around in the post-veil world far longer than Solas has. In the course of her many lives, she may have met a person that proved her wrong about the people living in the post-veil world much like Solas if he has a good opinion of you. Though, I am not sure about her "wrekoning that will shake the very heavens" will have any damage to the Fade or physical world She's also not obligated to care for elves like she used to so there's nothing in her logic that compels her to be careful on judging them. But my concern seems to be on a meta level, more towards the writers when they're giving opinions of characters to inform the player about the world. When Flemeth is saying they're all the same, are we, the players, meant to see the Dalish as an all encompassing race or are we supposed to see the flaws on a case by case since the clans are too scattered?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 3:53:29 GMT
To be fair, Solas may have only ran into a small sample size of Dalish since we, the players have the benefit of seeing more open-minded and self-aware examples across the games. When Solas meets a Dalish Inquisitor who acts otherwise, he's willing to give the benefit of a doubt. Problem was, what was mentioned, about Flemeth saying all people are the same when a human Inquisitor asks if she'll reveal herself to the elven people, is sending me mixed messages. If the Dalish are meant to be too scattered to judge any single one as a representative of the rest, then why in the writing, are the detractors blanketing them as all of them possessing the same flaws? Yes, I get that it's up to the viewer to sift through what we're given and that the opinions put forth are not unbiased, but without a balancing counterviewpoint, it can subliminally send the message that all Dalish are the same: arrogant, misguided and deserving of their fate. Sorry, I'm probably jumping in without reading far enough. But I am a little baffled as to why the writing keeps tacking on the flaws as though it's universal with the Dalish if they're meant to be too varied to judge. I don't recall simply lumping the Dalish just in terms of flaws - and I'd like to ask why is the exception made for the Dalish and not for the other groups? Humans can be extremely varied - ranging from spirit-loving Avvars to pious Orlesians. Same with dwarves (Orzammar, surface and Kal-Sharok) or Qunari (followers of the Qun and Vashoth). Yet - according to both Flemeth and Solas - overall, none of those varied people in varied groups different enough from one another that much. So even if there are people or even smaller groups among them that are open-minded and generally admirable (like in case of Inquisitor that Solas likes a lot), apparently their numbers are not enough to make a difference.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 4:10:22 GMT
I don't recall simply lumping the Dalish just in terms of flaws - and I'd like to ask why is the exception made for the Dalish and not for the other groups? Humans can be extremely varied - ranging from spirit-loving Avvars to pious Orlesians. Same with dwarves (Orzammar, surface and Kal-Sharok) or Qunari (followers of the Qun and Vashoth). Yet - according to both Flemeth and Solas - overall, none of those varied people in varied groups different enough from one another that much. So even if there are people or even smaller groups among them that are open-minded and generally admirable (like in case of Inquisitor that Solas likes a lot), apparently their numbers are not enough to make a difference. Didn't mean to say you were doing such a thing, midnight tea, I'm sorry if that's how I came off. I'm focusing on the Dalish because there's an emphasis on them in Inquisition it seems and a great deal of it tends to be being told through the eyes of Lavellan that being Dalish is something to be ashamed of. Discrimination against elves is a major part of their story whereas with dwarves, a certain level of respect has been given to them because of their access to lyrium and the Qunari are currently right now in the background. It's not to say that an Adaar isn't facing prejudice; in fact it's quite the opposite. Humans being the dominant race don't have to fear as deeply being wiped out because of negative perceptions and they're not immediately written off as having characteristics they may not possess when meeting a character. But that's a topic for another time and I'd rather not bog things down with multiple issues. What I've noticed is how there's a conflicting message here. Do ALL Dalish practice the 3 mage rule despite what Lavellan can say? Are characters right to presume that the first reaction to expect from the Dalish is hostility? Or is it only certain aspects of Dalish culture that can vary while the rest can be expected as a rule of thumb?
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 5, 2017 4:21:19 GMT
I don't recall simply lumping the Dalish just in terms of flaws - and I'd like to ask why is the exception made for the Dalish and not for the other groups? Humans can be extremely varied - ranging from spirit-loving Avvars to pious Orlesians. Same with dwarves (Orzammar, surface and Kal-Sharok) or Qunari (followers of the Qun and Vashoth). Yet - according to both Flemeth and Solas - overall, none of those varied people in varied groups different enough from one another that much. So even if there are people or even smaller groups among them that are open-minded and generally admirable (like in case of Inquisitor that Solas likes a lot), apparently their numbers are not enough to make a difference. Didn't mean to say you were doing such a thing, midnight tea, I'm sorry if that's how I came off. I'm focusing on the Dalish because there's an emphasis on them in Inquisition it seems and a great deal of it tends to be being told through the eyes of Lavellan that being Dalish is something to be ashamed of. Discrimination against elves is a major part of their story whereas with dwarves, a certain level of respect has been given to them because of their access to lyrium and the Qunari are currently right now in the background. It's not to say that an Adaar isn't facing prejudice; in fact it's quite the opposite. Humans being the dominant race don't have to fear as deeply being wiped out because of negative perceptions and they're not immediately written off as having characteristics they may not possess when meeting a character. But that's a topic for another time and I'd rather not bog things down with multiple issues. What I've noticed is how there's a conflicting message here. Do ALL Dalish practice the 3 mage rule despite what Lavellan can say? Are characters right to presume that the first reaction to expect from the Dalish is hostility? Or is it only certain aspects of Dalish culture that can vary while the rest can be expected as a rule of thumb? The issue of hostility is also broached in a fairly one-sided manner as well. If the Dalish endure repeated attacks, threats intending to coerce them to convert, and templars, why would the Dalish expect anything but hostility from outsiders and strangers? Even Clan Lavellan is noted to be wary of the danger posed by humans if the player reads the codex that Clan Lavellan travels "along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities." Frankly, that's one of the biggest obstacles faced by the Dalish, which is why their nomadic lifestyle is one of survival. You don't really get the opportunity to criticize the members of the Chantry or the Chantry's militant arm in the way that Solas, and others, repeatedly criticize the Dalish in a fairly one-sided manner.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 4:26:18 GMT
The issue of hostility is also broached in a fairly one-sided manner as well. If the Dalish endure repeated attacks, threats intending to coerce them to convert, and templars, why would the Dalish expect anything but hostility from outsiders and strangers? Even Clan Lavellan is noted to be wary of the danger posed by humans if the player reads the codex that Clan Lavellan travels "along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities." Frankly, that's one of the biggest obstacles faced by the Dalish, which is why their nomadic lifestyle is one of survival. You don't really get the opportunity to criticize the members of the Chantry or the Chantry's militant arm in the way that Solas, and others, repeatedly criticize the Dalish in a fairly one-sided manner. I agree, although I'm concerned we're derailing this thread and might best take this elsewhere once we have an answer. To bring it back to Solas, I thought he'd have served as a critic to the Chantry's attempt to force city elves to adapt to their faith like he was hostile towards the Qun.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 5, 2017 4:34:35 GMT
The issue of hostility is also broached in a fairly one-sided manner as well. If the Dalish endure repeated attacks, threats intending to coerce them to convert, and templars, why would the Dalish expect anything but hostility from outsiders and strangers? Even Clan Lavellan is noted to be wary of the danger posed by humans if the player reads the codex that Clan Lavellan travels "along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities." Frankly, that's one of the biggest obstacles faced by the Dalish, which is why their nomadic lifestyle is one of survival. You don't really get the opportunity to criticize the members of the Chantry or the Chantry's militant arm in the way that Solas, and others, repeatedly criticize the Dalish in a fairly one-sided manner. I agree, although I'm concerned we're derailing this thread and might best take this elsewhere once we have an answer. To bring it back to Solas, I thought he'd have served as a critic to the Chantry's attempt to force city elves to adapt to their faith like he was hostile towards the Qun. True. It's surprising that there's not commentary from Solas on how alienage elves suffer under the status quo of the 'White Chantry' - Vaughan abducted women out of the Denerim alienage in broad daylight while no one seemed to care, the Denerim alienage was purged (including the orphanage), chevaliers murder elves as part of their initiation rites (which has been happening for centuries), and Halamshiral was recently burned down, with elves either burning alive or being shot with arrows if they attempted to flee. Alidda of Halamshiral was also an interesting historical figure I could have seen him making reference to: "The most famous elven criminal in Orlais was Alidda of Halamshiral, arrested in 4:45 Black for slaying three chevaliers. The trial, presided over by Divine Clemence I, revealed that Alidda had slain twelve chevaliers, in retaliation for the "graduation" tradition that sent knights into the slums to attack elves out past curfew. Alidda escaped and killed twenty more chevaliers, two in single combat, before she was cornered and, to avoid capture, cut her throat with her own dagger."
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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 4:39:54 GMT
Do you think he was unaware since he spent much of his time in the wild or that he should know since he had spies like Felassan to report in on the situation? Then again, it may not matter as he did say he doesn't see the modern elves as his people. But then, that didn't stop him from becoming upset over Gatt joining the Qun. Glah, my head hurts.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 5, 2017 4:47:50 GMT
Do you think he was unaware since he spent much of his time in the wild or that he should know since he had spies like Felassan to report in on the situation? Then again, it may not matter as he did say he doesn't see the modern elves as his people. There is a bit of inconsistency with that since he takes that tone with an elven protagonist (including when you ask him how he feels if you empowered Briala) but takes another approach with regard to Sera. Solas: Ar dirthan'as ir elgara, ma'sula e'var vhenan. Sera: Pppbbthh! Solas: Excuse me? Sera: Excuse yourself, whatever you said and what I did, same difference to me. Solas: I'd hoped, well, our people can sometimes feel the rhythm of the language despite lacking the vocabulary. Sera: Uh huh? Know what else is good? Words that mean things. Like these. Words. Solas: Fenedhis lasa. Sera: Pppbbthh. But then, that didn't stop him from becoming upset over Gatt joining the Qun. Glah, my head hurts. Yeah, it's not the most consistent, and perhaps it signals that Solas is still coming to grips with his own feelings on the matter.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 5:21:23 GMT
I don't recall simply lumping the Dalish just in terms of flaws - and I'd like to ask why is the exception made for the Dalish and not for the other groups? Humans can be extremely varied - ranging from spirit-loving Avvars to pious Orlesians. Same with dwarves (Orzammar, surface and Kal-Sharok) or Qunari (followers of the Qun and Vashoth). Yet - according to both Flemeth and Solas - overall, none of those varied people in varied groups different enough from one another that much. So even if there are people or even smaller groups among them that are open-minded and generally admirable (like in case of Inquisitor that Solas likes a lot), apparently their numbers are not enough to make a difference. Didn't mean to say you were doing such a thing, midnight tea, I'm sorry if that's how I came off. I'm focusing on the Dalish because there's an emphasis on them in Inquisition it seems and a great deal of it tends to be being told through the eyes of Lavellan that being Dalish is something to be ashamed of. Discrimination against elves is a major part of their story whereas with dwarves, a certain level of respect has been given to them because of their access to lyrium and the Qunari are currently right now in the background. It's not to say that an Adaar isn't facing prejudice; in fact it's quite the opposite. Humans being the dominant race don't have to fear as deeply being wiped out because of negative perceptions and they're not immediately written off as having characteristics they may not possess when meeting a character. But that's a topic for another time and I'd rather not bog things down with multiple issues. I think that emphasis might be a bit illusory and mostly stems from the fact that we can play only a Dalish elf - not a city one or else - that is a protagonist in a part of DA story during which we delve way more into the secrets of the past than we did in any other past installment. Of course, that's not to say that as an elf, and a Dalish one in fact, Lavellan doesn't experience discrimination that is reserved to Thedosian elves, but whichever elf we'd be playing - in fact whichever Inquisitor we'd be playing - there will be a slew of uncomfortable discoveries that are going to await them. None of the sides is saved from swallowing some bitter pills and I'm pretty certain we're not done yet. Is there really a 'conflicting' message, when even Lavellan can inform Minaeve that their clan's policies are different from hers? Yes, they have a 3 mage rule, but they're closer to clan Alerion and Sabrae in it that they exchange their mages. What I'm really baffled by is that.. we know that there are different groups even among those that have central administration and have been firmly established in Thedas, like the Southern Chantry. We know that Lothering cloister has been distinct in how accepting it was and that a lot of times central Chantries are shaped by affiliations to certain factions within the Chantry, oftentimes centered around certain Clerics/Grand Clerics. Somehow that isn't 'conflicting'. ... So how is it so strange or conflicting that there can be major differences among the people who have been established since DAO to be scattered and differing between one another? Aside from some basics, there doesn't seem to be any unifying culture between clans all across Thedas - it's natural for them to have different rules, even if Thedas at large lumps them all together, or there are Dalish who'd prefer to believe that they're unified by some sort of larger culture.
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Post by ellawyn on Feb 5, 2017 6:00:47 GMT
Do you think he was unaware since he spent much of his time in the wild or that he should know since he had spies like Felassan to report in on the situation? Then again, it may not matter as he did say he doesn't see the modern elves as his people. There is a bit of inconsistency with that since he takes that tone with an elven protagonist (including when you ask him how he feels if you empowered Briala) but takes another approach with regard to Sera. Solas: Ar dirthan'as ir elgara, ma'sula e'var vhenan. Sera: Pppbbthh! Solas: Excuse me? Sera: Excuse yourself, whatever you said and what I did, same difference to me. Solas: I'd hoped, well, our people can sometimes feel the rhythm of the language despite lacking the vocabulary. Sera: Uh huh? Know what else is good? Words that mean things. Like these. Words. Solas: Fenedhis lasa. Sera: Pppbbthh. I think this is less inconsistency and more just a general weirdness with Sera (A weirdness that she specifically points out the Inquisitor doesn't share, even if the Quizzie is Dalish.) I've heard plenty of theories as to what is weird about Sera, but I don't really believe any of them. Regardless, her and Solas' banter could've been completely scrapped and just replaced with them just shouting "Foreshadowing!" for ten minutes and I don't think we would've lost much.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 5, 2017 13:29:01 GMT
Actually Solas contradicts himself with regard to the Dalish. This is where his views to a non-friendly Dalish are more revealing. He claims that the Dalish "already consider themselves perfect". Yet he admits in earlier conversation that the Dalish have grown steadily apart of the years, so you cannot generalise their culture. So you have two extremes here. A lumping together of the entire group as arrogantly considering themselves perfect "true" elves and yet admitting that his bad experience with the Dalish clan(s) he has come into contact with may not be an accurate reflection of their entire group.
To he honest though, it is a fault of the writers, not Solas, or Sera for that matter, that they have the accusation being levelled at the Dalish as a whole that they are arrogant and superior in their dealings with others, when at the same time they claim they are not a homogenised group. This was my complaint a few pages back, that every time Lavellan tries to defend their culture by pointing out their clan doesn't do certain things the Dalish are accused of, it is brushed aside with "your clan are the exception" or "every clan is different", but when people are criticising the Dalish, then suddenly they are all the same.
Even the encounter with the Dalish clan in DAI does not support the view of Solas. They are wary of someone associated with the Inquisition (an organisation that has its roots in the Chantry) but they are receptive once you have proven they can trust you. Then when you take the information about Red Crossing, they take it on board and actually do something positive with it (unlike the Chantry representative). Where is the arrogance and attitude of "already perfect" in that? Yet Solas doesn't say that he has revised his opinion of the Dalish in view of this clan but only if he approves of Lavellan as an individual. If he and Lavellan don't get on, then his opinion of the Dalish remains the same. Surely the actions of an entire clan is more revealing that just one person?
It always irked me that none of my Advisors were willing to treat that peace offering in the spirit in which it was given. Josephine implied it was going to be an awful lot of effort and very costly in diplomatic favours, Leliana said to trick the villagers, and Cullen very grudgingly suggested that "if it means that much to you" he would take the gift in under guard. May be their attitude wouldn't upset an Inquisitor who was not Dalish to the same extent but I felt truly insulted. I opted for Cullen with the words in my mind "Yes, it f***ing does mean that much to me."
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 5, 2017 13:39:37 GMT
You know I never quite understood why Solas kept badgering Sera. In one of his earlier responses if you suggest he could go to the city elves with his wisdom, he dismisses the idea as giving them false hope (or something to that effect), yet he does this with Sera, who makes it clear from the outset that she does not wish to identify with elven culture in any form.
His reaction if you put Briala into power and then comment about it helping "Our People" was priceless. Pure puzzlement on his part and then "Oh you mean the elves." I remember thinking the first time, "Of course I meant the elves, who else would I mean?"
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 16:27:52 GMT
You know I never quite understood why Solas kept badgering Sera. In one of his earlier responses if you suggest he could go to the city elves with his wisdom, he dismisses the idea as giving them false hope (or something to that effect), yet he does this with Sera, who makes it clear from the outset that she does not wish to identify with elven culture in any form. Right... because he sits Sera and reveals to her all the secrets of Elvenhan and him being the Dread Wolf, instead of one time mentioning that elves used to be everywhere... Big qualitative difference here. As for badgering Sera - it's not that hard to guess what he's on about: Sera is actually a perfect specimen to try and see how far apart modern elves are from ancient ones. Why? Because she denies all sorts of 'elfiness'. Loudly. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but such is the 'shtick' with Sera that some people confuse for more than it is and think that it may mean that she's a reincarnation of Andruil or something ... The truth is however that - despite her denial - Sera will still display 'elfy' characteristics that don't seem so apparent at first glance: her subconscious attunement to the Fade, her strange reaction when looking at the Breach, the deja-vu, potential dormant talents, seeing things differently in Crossroads and so on. All of these Sera tries to deny, yet experiences either way. You could ask whether this is necessary hen Inky is an elf, but a.) not all Inquisitors ar elves, hence Solas's sample is limitrd to what he has at hand and b.) two specimens are better than one .... and c.) Solas can't seem to help himself to seek out things that are familiar to him in others. He couldn't help to see "comforting familiarity" in Blackwall, even if that "comforting familiarity" was seeing the horrors of war and harboring terrible secrets. So is it that difficult to understand that he'd seek familiarity in everything, just in attempt to either connect with the world or in last, desperate attempt to try and find another solution?
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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 17:40:35 GMT
I think that emphasis might be a bit illusory and mostly stems from the fact that we can play only a Dalish elf - not a city one or else - that is a protagonist in a part of DA story during which we delve way more into the secrets of the past than we did in any other past installment. Of course, that's not to say that as an elf, and a Dalish one in fact, Lavellan doesn't experience discrimination that is reserved to Thedosian elves, but whichever elf we'd be playing - in fact whichever Inquisitor we'd be playing - there will be a slew of uncomfortable discoveries that are going to await them. None of the sides is saved from swallowing some bitter pills and I'm pretty certain we're not done yet. Is there really a 'conflicting' message, when even Lavellan can inform Minaeve that their clan's policies are different from hers? Yes, they have a 3 mage rule, but they're closer to clan Alerion and Sabrae in it that they exchange their mages. What I'm really baffled by is that.. we know that there are different groups even among those that have central administration and have been firmly established in Thedas, like the Southern Chantry. We know that Lothering cloister has been distinct in how accepting it was and that a lot of times central Chantries are shaped by affiliations to certain factions within the Chantry, oftentimes centered around certain Clerics/Grand Clerics. Somehow that isn't 'conflicting'. ... So how is it so strange or conflicting that there can be major differences among the people who have been established since DAO to be scattered and differing between one another? Aside from some basics, there doesn't seem to be any unifying culture between clans all across Thedas - it's natural for them to have different rules, even if Thedas at large lumps them all together, or there are Dalish who'd prefer to believe that they're unified by some sort of larger culture. Thanks for answering, had to give this some thought but Gervaise put it better than I. I don't have much to offer beyond asking if the storytelling has really accomplished its purpose in portraying the Dalish as a scattered culture if the major characters we meet are acting as though all the Dalish are the same in a negative form. We don't hear much about City elves having a reputation worth mocking, nor is the first reaction a self admitted Andrastian a hostile one from anyone who would have a reason to be suspicious of their dogma to convert others to the faith. Solas being unusually quiet about the Chantry's forceful conversion of others was jarring. It probably doesn't matter in the end, since the series is still progressing as you said and that since it's headed to Tevinter, there may be a deconstruction of the Chantry faith.
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Post by ellawyn on Feb 5, 2017 17:52:00 GMT
You know I never quite understood why Solas kept badgering Sera. In one of his earlier responses if you suggest he could go to the city elves with his wisdom, he dismisses the idea as giving them false hope (or something to that effect), yet he does this with Sera, who makes it clear from the outset that she does not wish to identify with elven culture in any form. Right... because he sits Sera and reveals to her all the secrets of Elvenhan and him being the Dread Wolf, instead of one time mentioning that elves used to be everywhere... Big qualitative difference here. As for badgering Sera - it's not that hard to guess what he's on about: Sera is actually a perfect specimen to try and see how far apart modern elves are from ancient ones. Why? Because she denies all sorts of 'elfiness'. Loudly. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but such is the 'shtick' with Sera that some people confuse for more than it is and think that it may mean that she's a reincarnation of Andruil or something ... The truth is however that - despite her denial - Sera will still display 'elfy' characteristics that don't seem so apparent at first glance: her subconscious attunement to the Fade, her strange reaction when looking at the Breach, the deja-vu, potential dormant talents, seeing things differently in Crossroads and so on. All of these Sera tries to deny, yet experiences either way. You could ask whether this is necessary hen Inky is an elf, but a.) not all Inquisitors ar elves, hence Solas's sample is limitrd to what he has at hand and b.) two specimens are better than one .... and c.) Solas can't seem to help himself to seek out things that are familiar to him in others. He couldn't help to see "comforting familiarity" in Blackwall, even if that "comforting familiarity" was seeing the horrors of war and harboring terrible secrets. So is it that difficult to understand that he'd seek familiarity in everything, just in attempt to either connect with the world or in last, desperate attempt to try and find another solution? I'd be inclined to believe that it's simply Solas using Sera as a measuring stick if it weren't for the fact that Sera points out that the Dalish Inquisitor doesn't share it. She even specifically states "It's not an elfy thing." So, I don't think it's that simple. Nevermind her nightmares or the Fade tombstone. Also, unless have a source where this was unambiguously confirmed, I'd appreciate it if you refrained from presenting your theory as "the truth," and belittling those who believe otherwise.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 18:42:10 GMT
I'd be inclined to believe that it's simply Solas using Sera as a measuring stick if it weren't for the fact that Sera points out that the Dalish Inquisitor doesn't share it. She even specifically states "It's not an elfy thing." So, I don't think it's that simple. Nevermind her nightmares or the Fade tombstone. Actually, she does the opposite. Sera: (shivers) Weird. Solas: Sera? What are you feeling? Sera: Ugh, here we go. It’s nothing, it just feels like I've seen this. Exactly this. It happens. Solas: Not to everyone.
(If Inquisitor is an elf) Sera: It’s not an elf thing. Inquisitor's not shaking.
(Otherwise) Sera: It’s not an elf thing. You’re not shaking. Sera: I suppose now you’ll switch to how I’m the same but different? Solas: You are different. You are the furthest from what you were meant to be. Sera: Well I’ve definitely heard piss like this before. Hmph!The thing she says is that Inquisitor/Soals doesn't shake, not that they don't experience the deja-vu. And yeah - they don't shake, because such experience doesn't freak them out. Sera on the other hand is demonstrably freaked out by everything she finds weird or otherwise 'magical'. It is well established in the story, be it through comments with Solas, Cole, Cassandra or her reactions to Fade, her reaction to dreams (if romanced) or seeing things differently in Crossroads. I'm not sure what her Fade tombstone has to do with 'making things complicated' for positing that she's simply struggling with her 'elfiness'. Sera has huge identity issues and Blackwall even makes it a point that she doesn't know who she is, and it's quite apparent that she's struggling to find her place in the world - that she sees nothingness in the Fade is likely a result of that. It is indeed quite unambiguously confirmed in one of the first dialogues Solas has with Sera: Solas: What color is the sky, Sera? Sera: Hang on. Solas: It is an earnest question. What color is the sky when you look at it? Sera: You know, blue mostly. Except for the Breachy bits. Solas: And when you looked past the Breach? As perhaps you were drawn to do? Sera: Greenish? Then clear a long ways, and kind of...felt like falling. Sera: Ugh! Makes my head hurt. You make my head hurt. Solas: We are not so far apart, you and I. Sera: We will be.It's hard to interpret it as anything else. We know this banter quite well here, it's been quoted on those boards dozens of times, and I even mention it passingly in my response, as I did other things. If you want to bash me for apparently " presenting your theory as "the truth," and belittling those who believe otherwise" then hey - have at it, because I know my presentation can be confrontational... but there's one thing you can't do and that is not presenting or not willing to present my sources, either on a spot or when asked for it. I'm quite known for doing that consistently.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 19:25:04 GMT
I don't have much to offer beyond asking if the storytelling has really accomplished its purpose in portraying the Dalish as a scattered culture if the major characters we meet are acting as though all the Dalish are the same in a negative form. We don't hear much about City elves having a reputation worth mocking, nor is the first reaction a self admitted Andrastian a hostile one from anyone who would have a reason to be suspicious of their dogma to convert others to the faith. Solas being unusually quiet about the Chantry's forceful conversion of others was jarring. I'm going to ask who those 'major characters' would be (aside from Solas)? I'm also not sure I'm understanding what you're aiming at when you say that we don't hear much about City elves not having a reputation worth mocking... I'm a bit confused where it's going, aside from pointing out that city elves indeed have been mocked and dismissed, not just by humans they live among, but by some Dalish we meet. That in itself shows differences between clans or individual members - Mihris is quick to call Soals 'flat-ear' and be dismissive towards him. Zathrian on the other hand accepts city elves to the clan, and even has made a city elf his First. Other clans are hostile towards outsiders - Hawen's little clan is reasonably suspicious, but if Inquisition shows they're worthy of trust, they open up to a point of willing to let one of their own to Inquisition (and one of their clan members - entirely on his own - thinks it's time to start mending bridges between elves and humans). That in itself shows how Dalish clans can differ between one another. That doesn't mean that they don't have common characteristics - one of them is what I have issue with and that is being an isolationist bunch, who at best interact with humans in terms of commerce, but don't have any sort of presence in terms of representatives to any government or any institution and so on. They exist only on fringes of society (that we meet as many as we do is also an illusion created by extraordinary circumstances we usually follow) and that in itself guarantees that they won't be there to dispel any sort of notions that Thedas at large has about them. Hence, sadly, a Dalish elf may not have it easy to tackle all the misconceptions and stereotypes floating around - to a world they're an exotic, unpredictable element who - worse - is not worshipping same god the majority does. And Andrastians have issues with that, but that is not just the issue with the Dalish - they have the same beef with Avvar after all. As if we didn't have that in spades in DAI Especially in Trespasser. The revelation that the Veil is actually not Maker's creation, but of an elf who was once considered god (and still may have god-like powers) AND that there was a world without the Veil is a blow that could reasonably end with religious war in Chantry-controlled regions, if that knowledge ever becomes widespread. Of course, there's no guarantee that that knowledge will become widespread before we see a deconstruction of entire world
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 5, 2017 19:41:38 GMT
Come on Midnight, you do like to be confrontational and have a tendency to twist what people say. When I mentioned Solas' attitude to revealing his wisdom to city elves, I was not suggesting that he would sit Sera down and tell her "all the secrets of Elvhenan or him being the Dread Wolf". I highly doubt he would have told anyone this, even if they were willing to listen. That was the whole point I was trying to make in my earlier post.
I have been replaying through the early part of DAI and it does strike me how confrontational Solas is behind is apparently mild, humble exterior. Not long after you meet him the first time, whilst you are still fighting your way through demons, is when he first brings up having had a "run in" with the Dalish. If you were genuinely trying to find out about people, and knew that every clan was different, then why not bring up the matter in a less fraught setting, when it might be possible to talk through just what he had experienced with them. Then when you ask him about what he knows of elven culture, he throws the question back at you, it would seem in the hope of getting you to incriminate yourself. And if you ask him what his problem is, you get a "Solas disapproves" (bear in mind if you didn't go off track up the frozen river, then you won't even know he had previously had a "run in" with the Dalish). So from the outset he is disposed to be confrontation with a Dalish Inquisitor, without giving them the benefit of the doubt.
By contrast, he seems determined to discuss things with Sera when she has made it clear she doesn't want to know. Yet her reaction doesn't elicit the sarcasm and scorn that he seems to reserve for the Dalish. So, as with Sera's hostility towards the Dalish, I would have appreciated knowing a bit more as to why he felt as he did towards them. What sort of wisdom did he try and share with them?
You see, as lobselvith has pointed out, previously the Dalish we have encountered in game and in codices are quite willing to admit that their knowledge is patchy and there is a lot they still don't know. They would also likely give greater deference to a somniari. Marethari was willing to try and help Feynriel as he wasn't even a full elf. She says how rare they are in modern times. So a somniari who claims to have knowledge he has gained from the Fade would likely be listened to. However, simply an apostate elf, who to the Dalish is likely escaped from a Circle, who turns up and starts lecturing them on matters, claiming to have superior knowledge, would not be appreciated because it would seem like a backhanded way of the Chantry getting to them and trying to destroy their culture. This ties in with Opuspace was saying, that Solas never seems to have anything to say about the Chantry forcibly converting people to their faith in the past. If he knows the history of the Dalish, then he should be able to appreciate why they might be so sensitive to someone approaching them criticising their culture. The reason they appear so proud of it, is that they refused to give it up. It symbolises their determination not to submit.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, so far as the Dalish are concerned, Solas has a distinct lack of empathy, which is surprising given their history and his own.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 5, 2017 20:11:33 GMT
The issue of the Dalish being isolationist is a matter of survival. They live they way they do because that is the only way they can have their independence. City elves did not have any representation in government despite living in cities and having submitted to human rule. They are constantly treated like dirt even 700 years after the fall of the Dales. As was made clear in DAO, when some of them have made something of a success of their lives and try to move up in the world by leaving the alienage, invariably they end up being attacked by their humans neighbours and driven back into the slums having lost everything. The uprising in Halamshiral came about because an honest merchant, who was constantly having to put up with late payments from his human customers because they know they can get away with it, was murdered by a nobleman in retaliation for a child throwing a stone at his carriage. This is the reality for elves across Thedas. So why would it be any different for the Dalish, even if they were to abandon faith in their gods? Briala only achieved anything because she was the Empress' lover and was as steeped in the culture of the Game as any human. Do you suggest that the Dalish should be as corrupt and cutthroat as human nobles just to get on in the world? That is what I view as being polluted by human contact means.
In fact the reason Gisharel started sharing his culture with human scholars was that he hoped that by seeing and understanding the Dalish, the humans would eventually come to respect them. Keeper Mahariel of the Sabrae clan had advocated trying to learn more about the humans for the same reason. Not all clans agreed with their stance and some of the more isolationist clans (presumably like Virnehn) were angry towards them. However, it would seem that there was little appreciation for their efforts considering the attitudes we encounter in game towards the Dalish.
If the Inquisitor is a Lavellan and they succeed in saving their clan, then hopefully that would result in a better profile for the Dalish as a whole, at least in the Freemarches. The clans were said to be watching your progress with interest. Several Dalish joined up with the Inquisition to help in the efforts against Corypheus, including two from Gisharel's clan, Ralaferin. However, I wonder if any of this will have a lasting affect if the Inquisitor is not a Dalish elf. My Dalish Warden was given the boon for their people at the end of DAO but by DA2 that had come to nothing, so I wouldn't be surprised if any of the gains made by a Dalish Inquisitor aren't quietly forgotten further down the line.
As I've said before, I didn't have such an appreciation for the Dalish simply after DAO. However, having read everything there is to read on them in order to properly role play my Dalish Inquisitor and having fully immersed myself in their character, now I do understand where the Dalish are coming from. I like that they are different and not selling out their culture just to fit in. I'd like for this to be rewarded by the writers some day but like I've also said before, I'm worried that the opposite is going to be true and they are going to be sacrificed to the plot down the line. This is one instance, though, when I really hope that I'm wrong.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 20:20:56 GMT
Come on Midnight, you do like to be confrontational and have a tendency to twist what people say. I do like to be confrontational, but I disagree that I twist what people say. Case in point: Well no, that is NOT what you said, or at least it didn't across that way. So please don't accuse me of "twisting your words" when you first express confusion as to why Solas keeps 'badgering' Sera with elfy stuff despite her expressing her unwillingness to hear what he has to say. Basically, your previous comment suggests the exact opposite of what you're claiming your point is trying to make, hence I've responded accordingly - although, apparently, I have to be more careful when I use playful hyperbole. That's... not news. Not only it's generally accepted even among his fans that Solas can be a prickly, snarky Mr. Smartypants, it's even pointed out by characters in the story, like in case of banter with Cassandra. Solas is relatively quick to be prickly about things, be it elves, humans or specific institutions or organizations at large or else. Okay... not only this excerpt flies straight in the face of what you claimed earlier, I fail to see how is Solas's interaction with Sera not snarky at times and just plain dismissive at others. You know, especially when he ends the argument with just swearing at Sera in elvhen - that's somehow NOT scornful? I mean... it's quite obvious that Solas has very mixed feelings towards Sera. And I'm not saying that based on some conjecture: he admits it right away if you recruit Sera and then discuss with Solas about the elves - he outright tells Inquisitor that he both pities and envies her. After ToM he even tells it to Sera directly, in a fairly emotional outburst (for him). He expresses similar feelings towards Varric in fact, though in more roundabout way. And Varric's issues with 'dwarfiness' are about as big as Sera's with 'elfiness' and practically never addressed, not by Inquisitor at least. It's quite apparent that it's tantamount to Solas's own conflict about his own struggles with identity and what to accept or reject from past or present. Unlike most Dalish - or at least Dalish he met - both Varric and Sera choose to reject the past and embrace the present. Solas has no such luxury - he can't do that without sacrificing his cause and likely people he's sworn to fight for. And taking that into consideration, is it really that surprising that he'd first seek people who he assumed embraced the past and may be willing to work towards restoring it, ergo: Dalish? From his own experience we can assume that he's found out that the Dalish he approached may not be interested with the past, but with version of the past they believe in (a major beef both Solas and Flemeth has with the world at large, it seems), made only worse by them proudly wearing markings of rulers he's fought so hard to rescue people from...
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 5, 2017 20:43:20 GMT
Yes, and what Solas does not seem to appreciate is that during their time as slaves of Tevinter, the elves were denied their culture, which is why they have forgotten so much. They wear the vallaslin with pride because now they are a symbol of their refusal to submit. It might be sadly ironic that is the case but that is the situation in the present. They are determined to follow their own religion because in the past Tevinter forbade them their own religion and forced them to follow their own, just as the Chantry did in more recent times. Everything they do is because they lost everything in the past and they do not want to be simply pointy eared humans. Their idea of the past may be wrong in terms of history but up until Solas appeared on the scene, no one knew that. He can appreciate the need for Abelas to be clinging to his past because he lacks the power to restore what is lost in the present, yet despises the Dalish for doing exactly the same. Except that unlike Abelas, the Dalish are not holed up in some forgotten temple, but out there in a hostile world, trying to live their lives in being true to themselves. It is not just a case of looking back nostalgically at some idealised past but maintaining their own identity in the present.
So far as the elves were concerned, both Mythal and Solas do have a lot to answer for because as Lavellan points out, they having been crying out for years for someone to guide them and no one answered. They had to make the best of it having been abandoned by the ancient powers. Solas could have stuck around after he freed them and tried to help them to a better future but instead he just recoiled in horror at what he had done and went to sleep with the intention of reversing it. So they were left at the mercy of whoever would lead them. It would seem that initially this was most likely the followers of the other gods, who encouraged them in isolation while the world moved on. Then the world in the form of Tevinter discovered them again and their leaders led them to their doom and ultimately slavery. I think the elven slaves and their descendants have been pretty badly let down for millennia but that is just my take on the whole thing.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 5, 2017 21:16:11 GMT
I'm going to ask who those 'major characters' would be (aside from Solas)? I'm also not sure I'm understanding what you're aiming at when you say that we don't hear much about City elves not having a reputation worth mocking... I'm a bit confused where it's going, aside from pointing out that city elves indeed have been mocked and dismissed, not just by humans they live among, but by some Dalish we meet. That in itself shows differences between clans or individual members - Mihris is quick to call Soals 'flat-ear' and be dismissive towards him. Zathrian on the other hand accepts city elves to the clan, and even has made a city elf his First. Other clans are hostile towards outsiders - Hawen's little clan is reasonably suspicious, but if Inquisition shows they're worthy of trust, they open up to a point of willing to let one of their own to Inquisition (and one of their clan members - entirely on his own - thinks it's time to start mending bridges between elves and humans). That in itself shows how Dalish clans can differ between one another. That doesn't mean that they don't have common characteristics - one of them is what I have issue with and that is being an isolationist bunch, who at best interact with humans in terms of commerce, but don't have any sort of presence in terms of representatives to any government or any institution and so on. They exist only on fringes of society (that we meet as many as we do is also an illusion created by extraordinary circumstances we usually follow) and that in itself guarantees that they won't be there to dispel any sort of notions that Thedas at large has about them. Hence, sadly, a Dalish elf may not have it easy to tackle all the misconceptions and stereotypes floating around - to a world they're an exotic, unpredictable element who - worse - is not worshipping same god the majority does. And Andrastians have issues with that, but that is not just the issue with the Dalish - they have the same beef with Avvar after all. As if we didn't have that in spades in DAI Especially in Trespasser. The revelation that the Veil is actually not Maker's creation, but of an elf who was once considered god (and still may have god-like powers) AND that there was a world without the Veil is a blow that could reasonably end with religious war in Chantry-controlled regions, if that knowledge ever becomes widespread. Of course, there's no guarantee that that knowledge will become widespread before we see a deconstruction of entire world I think the entire issue comes down to that race selection wasn't initially planned for Inquisition, hence the absurd moments like where a Dalish Inquisitor asks who Mythal was. Again, my opinion is based upon a meta level, not in story. Given the wider spread of Andrastianism and its familiarity with others, I'd have thought there'd be a higher chance of people outside the Chantry making negative preconceptions of a self-admitted faithful. It's a controlling faith that tries to convert others but no one is reacting with hostility towards that. Why is it that Solas is expecting a fight from Lavellan in the beginning but he's nowhere as hostile towards Cassandra where he knows she'd have locked him away, an act that would be anathema to his values towards freedom? Why is there no way to correct Bull by saying it's her clan, not theirs when he mentions Dalish' reason for leaving? Why is there no way to argue with Sera when she says the Dalish don't know anything? These are all small and petty things, but they build up to a sense that we, the players, are expected to see the Dalish as all the same when it comes to their flaws.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 22:00:06 GMT
Yes, and what Solas does not seem to appreciate is that during their time as slaves of Tevinter, the elves were denied their culture, which is why they have forgotten so much. You're conflating two things. Losing cultural heritage doesn't justify being close-minded or believing in things that aren't true. I know something about it from my own turf. And Solas offered the Dalish (and others, I assume) means to discover the very culture and history they lost. Barring some exceptions, he seemed to have been largely rejected. Apples and oranges. The problem with that comparison is that Abelas actually knows what he holds on to. I mean... aside from the fact that it's actually more than a shadow of lost culture - Vir Abelassan is a real, palpable source of deep knowledge linked with Mythal and both Solas and Vivienne suggest that there's still some significant power hiding in that temple, aside from the Well. Er, no... for quite a few Dalish it seems that maintaining their own identity in the presence is precisely looking back nostalgically at idealized past. It's actually how it works for many oppressed people, IRL or not. And let's not beat around the bush - in Thedas the Dalish are not the only ones doing that. Andrastians, especially those poor and disenfranchised ones, yearning for return of the Maker and bringing back Thedosian equivalent of paradise back are hardly any different. We've already had this discussion and I'm still surprised that you keep throwing around the idea that Solas "might have stuck around and instead recoiled in horror and went to take a long nap" when we: a.) have enough evidence to suggest that either after creating the Veil or trapping the Evanuris Solas fell into coma he only managed to wake up "still weak" merely a year before events in Inquisition, b.) have no certainty whatsoever that he didn't attempt to contact people through dreams or agents. In fact we have evidence to suggest the opposite, given that Felassan has been roaming the countryside for decades, and surely wasn't the only agent Solas has (someone had to lead Venatori to the orb after all).
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2017 22:59:18 GMT
I think the entire issue comes down to that race selection wasn't initially planned for Inquisition, hence the absurd moments like where a Dalish Inquisitor asks who Mythal was. Again, my opinion is based upon a meta level, not in story. In a game of this size and scope it's inevitable to have such, *even if* Inquisition would have been planned with race selection from the start. ...How is nobody reacting with hostility towards the Chantry? It's being criticized by people in story left and right, outside or not - in fact, its most staunch critics are the insiders: Cassandra, Leliana, Giselle, Vivienne or Cullen. They have varying views on the Chantry, but it certainly cannot be said that they don't pour scathing criticism on it. The story also makes it clear that the Chantry is a deeply flawed institution - DAI especially, where we basically see Southern Chantry's unraveling. We see its members doing highly questionable things, oftentimes for gains, political and whatnot, spreading fear and dissent or even fighting between one another. Inquisition in fact starts in position of heretical rebellion against the Chantry, and practically every Inquisitor of any background is given a chance to say some harsh words about institution themselves. Hence I'm not really sure where this criticism stems from, given all of the above Hang on - after Lavellan woke up Solas was around Cassandra for 3 days. And no - Cassandra wouldn't have locked him away. In fact her NOT doing so (even if she threatened him, to which Solas freely admitted in Fade scene) resulted with him saving the Herald and having a chance to fix this mess in the first place. And even with Cassandra in place, almost the very first thing Solas does is making up his mind of staying with Inquisition - when Herald asks if that was ever in doubt, he informs them that he's an apostate mage surrounded by Chantry forces in the middle of mage rebellion. Later on, when Inky wants to know them - when Solas asks why and Inky tells them is because they think he's brave for approaching Chantry - he says that it's probably not the smartest thing to do if framed that way. So he's clearly wary, clearly critical (he has extensive banters about that with Cass) and clearly the only reason he stays is because a very small group of people (Inky, Cass, Leliana) has made enough of a first impression on him. Also, a separate issue - Solas may be all about freedom, but above everything else he's a pragmatist. Him approaching the Chantry and staying with Inquisition wasn't a matter of ideals, but sheer, raw necessity. This is why he stays even if he and Inquisitor are hostile towards one another. In situations like this, ideals will have to be sacrificed - it's a trait he shares with hardened Leliana. ...Because that was a passing mention in a scene where meant to establish background for Chargers and NOT a scene in which Dalish - or any Inquisitor really - can get into extensive discussions about political realities of separate clans If we went that far, we'd find such small and petty things everywhere - I, for example, have a small beef with Cassandra for stating to Inquisitor who says that they don't believe in Maker (only human ones, actually) "It must be comforting to be so certain", which ultimately means that she gives in to common logical error and conflates belief with knowledge. We have no way of addressing it pretty much anywhere in the game. ... do you hear me spinning it into Dragon Age being against atheists or something? Do I argue that this scene puts all atheists in bad light? No, this is simply Cassandra's (who is portrayed as staunch believer) personal opinion on the matter. Just like Sera's is Sera's. And Sera is not exactly portrayed in the story as being the one with smarts or knowledge, in fact she is pretty much a brat who "doesn't like complicated" - so again I have to wonder why is her personal opinion suddenly given so much gravitas...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 23:10:31 GMT
You can add Dorain to the list of people who criticize the Chantry and Samson. Dorain says to should be done away with, calling it a "relic of a bygone era." Samson saying the Chantry used its Templars and then threw them away in the garbage.
Also, I think the reason why Solas goes after the Dalish so much is because of the whole "Fen'harel is evil, eats babies, and hates the elves."
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