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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 22:36:23 GMT
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Post by melbella on Feb 17, 2017 2:03:32 GMT
I'm pretty certain that either the Blight or red lyrium, or both, are the reason that Solas thinks he has no choice but to drop the Veil and cleanse the world with the fires of chaos.
And yet, if this is really the case, why wouldn't he say so? Instead of "I'm going to bring back my world even I have to destroy yours in the process," wouldn't it make more sense for him to say, "I need to bring the Veil down - it's the only way to fight/stop the Blight."
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 17, 2017 2:15:49 GMT
I'm pretty certain that either the Blight or red lyrium, or both, are the reason that Solas thinks he has no choice but to drop the Veil and cleanse the world with the fires of chaos.
And yet, if this is really the case, why wouldn't he say so? Instead of "I'm going to bring back my world even I have to destroy yours in the process," wouldn't it make more sense for him to say, "I need to bring the Veil down - it's the only way to fight/stop the Blight." There's probably something about the Blight he doesn't want the world to know. Flemeth appears to share that sentiment. She could have had revealed something since game 1 - but nope. And when Inquisitor asks about details, she just brushes them off and tells them that they don't know what they're asking for.
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 17, 2017 4:57:23 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 17, 2017 20:08:46 GMT
The problem is that if Solas said "It's the only way to stop the Blight", then the next question would be "How can you be sure?" Admitting that the elves were responsible for the existence of the Blight is not something he would want to readily admit to. He was afraid of the backlash when people discovered the orb used by Corypheus was elven. Imagine the reaction when people discovered the curse on the world was not the work of the Maker but the ancient elves. At present he can take the world hating him. That is nothing new and the other races, if they have heard of Fen'Harel at all, will know that the Dalish say he is a trickster and bad luck, so it will not necessarily reflect badly on the elves for the news about him to be known. In any case, the epilogue seems to suggest that, just as with the presence of Qunari spies across the south that Hawke discovered, people prefer to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the warnings:"Those who believe the Inquisitor". Likely that means very few people take it seriously apart from your immediate allies. Even so, Maryden's song says "Mercy for the Elves" and questions whether the "Dalish son will survive the fight", which suggests that people are going to blame the elves anyway.
However, I am hopeful that if you could come up with an alternative for the curing the Blight, then he would be willing to listen to you, if you left him as a friend (or still faithful lover). For those who parted from him on bad terms, likely the Inquisitor won't be able to change his mind but perhaps the next PC will, depending on how they feel about him and how he feels about them.
Solas admits that he has had a lot of disappointment in the past from people he thought were friends. His comment that "only a friend can betray you" is likely based on experience (and why he understands how a friendly Inquisitor must feel) but he also mentions how in the past sometimes even his allies have derided him and called him "a liar, fool or madman". This has presumably been in reaction to him revealing the truth about things in the past, so it is hardly surprising that he has such reluctance to trust even his friend/lover in the present.
I'm hoping this is the case anyway. Feeling he has no choice when it comes to the Blight/Red lyrium is something I can at least understand and sympathise with. If it is simply that he wants to put things back as they were before then I am rather less so, unless it can be achieved without the massive loss of life that is suggested in the conversation with him at the end of Trespasser. That is a possibility for a way to redeem him; discovering a way to drop the Veil without the accompanying loss of life, but I still have this hunch that the Blight will be the key to everything.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 17, 2017 20:41:56 GMT
The problem is that if Solas said "It's the only way to stop the Blight", then the next question would be "How can you be sure?" Admitting that the elves were responsible for the existence of the Blight is not something he would want to readily admit to.
... What makes you think that ancient elves were responsible for existence of the Blight? We have enough evidence to suggest that (the Evanuris at least) had contact with the Blight or have actively used it to empower themselves, but NOT that they've created the Blight. In fact, if we assume that Solas has created the Veil to either prevent or slow the spread of the Blight, then Cole's comment from Trespasser ("He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking") suggests that the Blight is something primordial, hence likely something that has pre-existed elves, and also something that seems to actively seek ways to return to the world. We also have enough of hints to suggest that the Blight might have some sort of connection with Titans (Solas's rune in Trespasser mentions him being frightened by the 'angry energy' emanating from that place, and when Cole is brought to Emprise to lion he tells us that the red lyrium is 'very angry'), and - as of now - we can't really tell for sure what is the Titans contribution to the whole thing, other than - while apparently defeated by Evanuris - they seem to nudge and shove events along course of history on their own (if revival of Leliana in case she's dead or leading Valta to Titan is Descent is any indicator).
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 17, 2017 21:30:38 GMT
It is true that they may not have actually created the Blight deliberately but there seem strong hints that somehow they may have caused it to come into being. For example, killing a Titan may have caused its corpse to become corrupt, particularly if powerful magic was involved. Right at the beginning of DAI when Varric is discussing with Cassandra how the lyrium came to be there, Solas mentions that may be magic had something to do with it (although no one acknowledges this at the time). May be the Titan wasn't totally killed but merely altered in some way and became the first broodmother as a result. In which case finding its body and cleansing it may be the key.
There is also the possibility that it was the Forgotten Ones who were responsible, since the Blight draws its power from the Void, the lair of the Forgotten Ones. People have also suggested that the plague Andruil brought back from the Void was the Blight.
The thing is, as Corypheus pointed out, you don't actually have to have been responsible for the creation of the Blight for people to damn your name for having a connection with it. He and is fellow Magisters only discovered the darkness (by accident it would seem), yet were condemned by history and by implication so were Tevinter and mages throughout Thedas. Which is why elves, who have been vilified for centuries merely because of their war with Orlais and desire for their own culture, would be an easy target for yet more hatred by the inhabitants of Thedas if they suspected their ancient ancestors of having any connection with the origins of the Blight.
I was giving Solas a bit of credit really for realising how his revelations might impact on the other elves. As you know, I have been critical of him for not revealing more if he really wants the Inquisitor to stop him, but I have to acknowledge that not every Inquisitor is elven and so would not necessarily have the same concern for them as Lavellan or Solas would. Even Lavellan is surrounded by non-human advisors and allies, strongly connected to the Chantry, who generally do not seem favourably disposed towards viewing revelations about the elves in anything other than the worst light (for example look at the Chantry sister's reaction to the information about Red Crossing compared with the Dalish one) Hence his reluctance to reveal more.
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 18, 2017 5:03:40 GMT
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Post by javeart on Feb 18, 2017 10:09:59 GMT
I have to say that as much as I hope that is the case it still doesn't really work for me if Solas is after saving the world and not telling us He doesn't need to explain the whole thing to us, all he needs to do is not making his plans sound worse than they are :/
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 18, 2017 15:02:02 GMT
^ Agreed. It seems terribly counterproductive to have an idea of how to save the world from the Blight, and not mention it to anyone. That's why I am not so sure that he knows how to save the world from the Blight.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 18, 2017 15:17:30 GMT
^ Agreed. It seems terribly counterproductive to have an idea of how to save the world from the Blight, and not mention it to anyone. That's why I am not so sure that he knows how to save the world from the Blight. While I don't necessarily think that Solas knows a good solution for the Blight, there's one thing not taken into equation - Solas may likely think that nobody currently can do anything about the Blight. Or they may even make things worse. Solas has big trust issues after all. And it's not beyond a realm of possibility that he's shared knowledge how to defeat/harness/use some kind of power or secret before, only for it to be exploited by people he's entrusted that knowledge to. I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of why he felt betrayed (and guilty) or why he said "there's no regret sharper than watching fools squander what you've sacrificed to achieve". And modern world didn't necessarily convince him that they're any better. Cracking open the Golden City and other things have probably not warmed him to modern Thedosians; and that's aside from the fact that he probably doesn't think them capable of fighting back in the first place (at best they 'bought some time'), even if he admires their courage for 'fighting against the tide', whatever that tide is. After all...: Dorian: I can't believe you entered the Fade. Physically. Solas: You think that is an achievement of which to be proud? Dorian: It's the second time that's been done in all of history. That's not nothing, Solas. Solas: In all of human history. Dorian: The Fade is still a mystery to us humans, yes. Probably always will be. Solas: Perhaps it's best it remain that way.
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Post by Solas on Feb 18, 2017 20:09:43 GMT
did we discuss what the new comic might mean in regards to Solas?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 18, 2017 21:02:10 GMT
did we discuss what the new comic might mean in regards to Solas? I have my doubts that it'd have any overt references or ties to Solas. The Magekiller didn't after all. I know that people are quick to theorize that Vaea may be an elven spy of his, but aside from an amusing tendency to eye almost every elf with suspicion since Trespasser, I have my doubts that Vaea would be his spy, given that she's likely the main protag. Besides - what would Solas need head of red-lyriumcized Meredith for? Because the cover suggests that it's likely target of the theft. Solas ain't fond of red lyrium, to put it lightly. I wouldn't however be surprised if Vaea was a Qunari spy. We do know from chunk of red lyrium in Trespasser that they've been researching the damn thing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 21:58:54 GMT
^ Agreed. It seems terribly counterproductive to have an idea of how to save the world from the Blight, and not mention it to anyone. That's why I am not so sure that he knows how to save the world from the Blight. While I don't necessarily think that Solas knows a good solution for the Blight, there's one thing not taken into equation - Solas may likely think that nobody currently can do anything about the Blight. Or they may even make things worse. Solas has big trust issues after all. And it's not beyond a realm of possibility that he's shared knowledge how to defeat/harness/use some kind of power or secret before, only for it to be exploited by people he's entrusted that knowledge to. I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of why he felt betrayed (and guilty) or why he said "there's no regret sharper than watching fools squander what you've sacrificed to achieve". And modern world didn't necessarily convince him that they're any better. Cracking open the Golden City and other things have probably not warmed him to modern Thedosians; and that's aside from the fact that he probably doesn't think them capable of fighting back in the first place (at best they 'bought some time'), even if he admires their courage for 'fighting against the tide', whatever that tide is. After all...: Dorian: I can't believe you entered the Fade. Physically. Solas: You think that is an achievement of which to be proud? Dorian: It's the second time that's been done in all of history. That's not nothing, Solas. Solas: In all of human history. Dorian: The Fade is still a mystery to us humans, yes. Probably always will be. Solas: Perhaps it's best it remain that way.Very good points. Here we have Solas and Flemeth, two very powerful characters that could potentially alter the world through their knowledge, but remain secretive. Why's that? Maybe because would-be gods with so much power almost destroyed the world once, and sharing it would just make things worse. But, then again, individuals like the Warden, Hawke and the Inquisitor are the best solution for progressive and positive change. Yet Flemeth and Solas chose to remain silent about everything. Based on our discoveries since the last DLC, it's not far fetched to assume that the Black City is where the evanuris are trapped. If not there, they are in a realm beyond the Fade. The archdemons are also implied so far to be Elven Gods, but which? Aren't their soul destroyed forever if killed in a Blight by a Grey Warden? In my opinion, Solas is showing a fatal flaw, that he himself states is his most profound goal: Wisdom (his lack of). He has a lot of knowledge, about how Thedas worked, and almost every mystery that is intertwined with magic. Magic from his people that is slowly fading away (no pun intended). He's still lacking it about the current world politics, and that we may be able to use to our advantage. A trusted inner circle of a large organization spreading false information to keep his agents off balance is also a good strategy as is the legend of the Dread Wolf, if we can use it against his followers. He has that much knowledge, but is lacking wisdom to utilize it correctly. The man, full of sorrow and regret, wants to destroy the world of other species to save one which has been of the elves. Most of them don't even remember Elvhenan, they have become more part of the today's culture than whatever they have been in the past. Their stories of the old times are all mixed up, they consider Solas to be their devil, yet so many are following him. Even if we assume he is right to destroy the Veil, he is going to release the Evanuris again. Now, what makes him believe he'll have the power to stop them again? He did once, but assuming they've learned from their mistakes, in such a long time. They might as well be ready for him and just turn everything into a more catastrophic situation. One man vs seven, as we presume, without the element of surprise this time? With Elgar'nan probably even more powerful than Mythal? Waiting thousands of years for revenge? A really bad idea, in my point of view. Another theory is that the blight itself might have been caused by the Evanuris as retaliation for their banishment and Solas kept it in the City until stupid humans decided it was for their religion. Maybe Solas will be the main focus in the next game and the epilogue will be about the Evanuris's release, and DA 5 will be the focused on the fight against them (despite my strong beliefs that will be the Qunari). The real question is: what will Bioware come up with to have a new protagonist to give them command of an even larger organization than the Inquisition and power to stand up to an elven deity with a lot of followers? Will we be gathering armies again? A marked hand is so 2014, and you need to have someone credible enough to attract and inspire a large following, even more than before. Someone coming out of the blue? That might be harder than it looks. Someone already known in the world? I think most of us just don't want to kill Solas (I know I don't), he's one of the most interesting characters so far, without being arrogant. He'll make a exceptionally good enemy because he's not really "evil", he's knowledgeable, intelligent, powerful, resourceful, and worst of all, a friend (to most of us, I think). If we can redeem him again, and even have him with us fighting the rest of his brethren, it will be wonderful. Of course, for those of you heartless bastards, I want you to have the option to end him for good as well. Choice for all of us to roleplay as we want!!! Sorry for the monstrous post, by the way.
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 18, 2017 22:39:48 GMT
I think the reason why they don't bother to tell us anything (aside from a story-telling pov) is due to them thinking we're just pawns for them to use in a grander game.
In the words of Flemythal "People do not want to know the truth" and the Inquisitor was the only person that could close rifts and act as a foil against Corypheus. Had Solas told the truth (whatever it may be) the Inquisitor might not have been willing to play along, especially with Solas being as weak as he was at the time. In her own cryptic way of speaking, Flemeth did hint what she was "A shadow lingering in the sun" (a shadow of her former self) "Forgotten by the world" (Mythal was forgotten, save for what the Dalish barely remembers of her myths) and "A flotsam to cling to in the storm" (Mythal clinging to Flemeth for survival) In fact, I think there's some truths to Flemeth's dialogues if we can decipher her cryptic way of speaking. At the very least she'll quickly shut down potential questions via "more than that you need not know" whereas Solas will either skirt around the subject, maybe even lie.
Lastly, Flemeth also calls herself a "fly in the ointment" back in DAO ... that sounds pretty ominous when you consider she's cause a reckoning that'll shake the heavens.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of things he doesn't want people to find out. I found it strange that he was very quiet throughout The Descent when we learn the history of the Dwarves and Titans; you'd think he'd comment about "so even Dwarves erase their own history" or such. After Trespasser, it makes sense why he was silent.
On a side note, if he and other ancient Elvhen don't consider modern people as "people" due to being cut-off from the Fade (despite still being connected via dreams, etc) then what would Elvhen even think of the Dwarves, especially back then?
The more I think of it, I think June may have been the 1st Dwarf (due to his Dwarven iconography) to somehow "connect" to the Fade; thus "creating himself" in the eyes Elvhen
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 23:38:50 GMT
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Post by Sifr on Feb 19, 2017 3:18:07 GMT
Cannot unsee...
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 19, 2017 7:46:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 22:48:36 GMT
The fact that the artist kept the muscular thighs is what makes it
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 23:26:59 GMT
The fact that the artist kept the muscular thighs is what makes it It wouldn't be Solas without them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 4:06:39 GMT
Was the fact Dumat's preserved body was once housed in Weisshaupt been discussed? It's not necessarily Solas related but kinda makes you wonder if Wardens going silent and that Weissaupt is mention regardless of how the Wardens are dealt with in Inquisition doesn't somehow come into play in DA4 perhaps. I mean Dumat is one of the Old Gods and it is merely believed his remains were destroyed after using his blood to lure Corypheus. Old Gods still haven't had an actual role in the DA games yet just like the Evanuris aside from Solas (who is only recently been given an introduction). So maybe Weisshaupt becomes a target for our DA4 protagonist? Gotta get to powerful corpse before Solas uses it? Probably not.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 20, 2017 5:17:35 GMT
Was the fact Dumat's preserved body was once housed in Weisshaupt been discussed? It's not necessarily Solas related but kinda makes you wonder if Wardens going silent and that Weissaupt is mention regardless of how the Wardens are dealt with in Inquisition doesn't somehow come into play in DA4 perhaps. I mean Dumat is one of the Old Gods and it is merely believed his remains were destroyed after using his blood to lure Corypheus. Old Gods still haven't had an actual role in the DA games yet just like the Evanuris aside from Solas (who is only recently been given an introduction). So maybe Weisshaupt becomes a target for our DA4 protagonist? Gotta get to powerful corpse before Solas uses it? Probably not. Weisshaupt has been painted as suspicious since game 1 - and the fact that both Orlesian and Fereldan Wardens have teamed up in DAI in misguided attempt to deal with remaining Archdemons before they all succumb to the Calling doesn't help to dispel the impression that there's something wrong with Anderfelian Wardens. Like: Corypheus and Venatori schemes aside, why did Fereldan and Orlesian Wardens thought that if THEY perish, there won't be anyone left to deal with potential Blight? Did they distrust Wardens from other parts of the world? Why Weisshaupt wasn't involved? Basically - it really wouldn't be that surprising if it turned out that there's something very shady going on there. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if Dumat was involved in some way, because I am convinced that we haven't seen the last of him and he'll show up sometime in one way and another. Things thought dead in Thedas have already proven to be surprisingly resilient, after all I'm not sure whether both things would be connected though... they could be, for obvious reasons, but at the very same time I don't think they have to be. Weisshaupt could be corrupted by many things that may not even be related to the Blight, including Wardens' grasp on Anderfels itself and First Warden apparently vying for its throne. Also... with all the lines the Wardens have crossed over time in either researching or using dubious means to prevent the Blight, there's really no way of telling if there's anything left from Dumat that they haven't tried to use over time (Dumat steaks! The Best Of The Best! Believe me!) As for us visiting Weisshaupt in DA4... who knows? We do know that the Wardens did have contact with eluvians, so I wouldn't be surprised if they've had one or two in their vaults, even if they didn't know what they were (though, considering that even those with higher rank didn't know of existence of Corypheus, puts into question how much is withheld by those at the top... What if the Wardens have - through independent research - found how to crack the key to a few and we'd meet them in similar fashion we've met the Qunari?). And I am 99% convinced that DA4 will feature extensive eluvian-hopping. Aside from them being a major part of Trespasser, Weekes' and Epler's GDC talk leaves little room for doubt that they're going to be a major part of future storyline. In fact I am willing to bet that we'd spend less time in Tevinter than we could expect and visit many more places than just Weisshaupt, likely spread all over Thedas - and who knows if just there? Unlike DAO or DAI we very possibly won't be spending time gaining major alliances, unifying nations and stabilizing specific regions, but be probably mostly focused on discovering ancient mysteries and playing cat-and-mouse with Solas and who knows what else. Hence Tevinter will likely serve as a background - a hub we'd be returning to for some major story beats as well as a place where we do all the socializing. I can even imagine being mostly restricted to Minrathous, same way we were mostly restricted to Kirkwall in DA2 - maybe aside from some smaller zones, like a starter area. I don't think the open world is going away at all, but I do think we may see smaller, tighter zones and maybe the return of extensive dungeon crawls.
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CapricornSun
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Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
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Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 20, 2017 5:18:50 GMT
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spiritofsolace
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Post by spiritofsolace on Feb 20, 2017 5:39:09 GMT
It would be weird to me if Solas wasn't doing something about the blight. He does call it "the real problem" at one point. So if he isn't doing something about it and he is just doing his veil destroying plan for nostalgia or whatever, than he has to just accept that the blight is going to eventually kill the Elves anyway? That is way less explainable than why he isn't telling us about what he is doing. Honestly what is the inqusitor going to be able to do? The grey wardens haven't found a good plan for the blight or even truly understand it after 2,000 years. It is sheer player vanity to think we have an answer for all these problems. If we do it is just because that is the sort of power fantasy bioware games are, not that it is remotely logical for you to be the shiny hero who can solve anything, the npcs just aren't going to acknowledge you that way.
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LliiraAnna
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Post by LliiraAnna on Feb 20, 2017 7:27:46 GMT
It would be weird to me if Solas wasn't doing something about the blight. He does call it "the real problem" at one point. So if he isn't doing something about it and he is just doing his veil destroying plan for nostalgia or whatever, than he has to just accept that the blight is going to eventually kill the Elves anyway? That is way less explainable than why he isn't telling us about what he is doing. Honestly what is the inqusitor going to be able to do? The grey wardens haven't found a good plan for the blight or even truly understand it after 2,000 years. It is sheer player vanity to think we have an answer for all these problems. If we do it is just because that is the sort of power fantasy bioware games are, not that it is remotely logical for you to be the shiny hero who can solve anything, the npcs just aren't going to acknowledge you that way. I *still* don't remember where I read this, but I think DA protagonists are *supposed* to be random people stuck at the right (or wrong?) place at the right (or wrong) time. They're essentially just pawns to the story or to some higher powers, struggling against the current. Some actions can fail, others backfire, and yet others lead to some unexpected consequences (yeah, sure, let's help that dwarf open a church in Orzammar...). We are not supposed to be able to help everyone and save everything, and I think that it's the point. But players don't like it because people like feeling like they've accomplished something. But DA's prerogative seems to be it's story, not making the players feel accomplished by becoming a "shiny hero" who magically made every problem on Thedas go away. And it's realistic, even if depressing and/or irritating at times. That's my take on it, anyway. As for Solas, no matter how much he tries to be logical, he still acts on his emotions. That's his main problem, he doesn't really think things through. Right now, destroying the Veil is his goal number one since he feels guilty about this, and the Blight might be somewhere further down the list... might be. As I saw on Tumblr the other day - Solas is what happens when you put all stat points in Intelligence and zero in Wisdom
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