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Post by close2myheart on Apr 26, 2017 14:04:09 GMT
Yep.
But my canon did let morigan take the sip.
My reasons : I just like that whole unexpected family reunion thing between 3 generations. Coming from a close knit family.. I guess that scene speaks louder.
My Lavellan's reason : She has been raised most of her life time to be the next Keeper. Duty for clan and her People should come first. Never wanted to be the Herald, never expected to be the Inquisitor. But overtime, the role of Inquisitor has been deeply entrenched into her person that in the end, when face upon a difficult option, she falters. She could conjure up many reasons : Mythal wills it (Morrigan being her daughter and all) and at the behest of Solas' plea (had to headcanon there a bit, that Solas did BEG her to not drink from the Vir Abelassan). But she knows those were just excuses. In truth, she declined the well for her chance of a 'Happily Ever After'. Yes, she is flawed because of that (her close friendship with non-elves and the nearly blind devotion of her followers. Gradually she changes the Inquisition along with the people within it and the Inquisition changed her) and those exact flaws are the reason why I love her character. She definitly has her People's best interest at heart, wishing to create a world where people can be more accepting for the elves in general (like in Wycome) and think that her Inquisition is still the best tool to achieve it.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 26, 2017 16:37:08 GMT
Do you find it morally reprehensible for a mage Lavellan to let Morrigan drink from the Well of Sorrows? I mean, it might seem like neglecting your duty to your people in favor of self-preservation. Might seem like neglecting duty to whom? We don't know which Dalish or clan would consider absorbing a completely unknown power someone's "duty". I mean, Merril wanted to repair the eluvian in order to uncover secrets of the past - and her clan largely disagreed with her. Obviously there are different ways to look at things, and if things to know the past are found to be risky, not all will be cool with rushing towards answers or preserving legacy (which some may also find dubious, considering all the reveals). ... And nevermind that Inquisitor's duty is to all Thedosians, rather than one people. I understand wanting Inquisitor to care for well-being of their group or family, but after they accepted the role, they're protectors of all Thedas first and Keepers/Firsts/heads of family, etc second.
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Post by phoray on Apr 26, 2017 16:38:43 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Apr 26, 2017 18:45:19 GMT
Do you find it morally reprehensible for a mage Lavellan to let Morrigan drink from the Well of Sorrows? I mean, it might seem like neglecting your duty to your people in favor of self-preservation. Might seem like neglecting duty to whom? We don't know which Dalish or clan would consider absorbing a completely unknown power someone's "duty". I mean, Merril wanted to repair the eluvian in order to uncover secrets of the past - and her clan largely disagreed with her. Obviously there are different ways to look at things, and if things to know the past are found to be risky, not all will be cool with rushing towards answers or preserving legacy (which some may also find dubious, considering all the reveals). ... And nevermind that Inquisitor's duty is to all Thedosians, rather than one people. I understand wanting Inquisitor to care for well-being of their group or family, but after they accepted the role, they're protectors of all Thedas first and Keepers/Firsts/heads of family, etc second. Well... they were only against Merrill's goal because they're sorta traumatized from Tamlen (and maybe Mahariel)'s death. Otherwise, they might've been interested in the mirror. As for Merrill herself, I bet she would drink from the Well without thinking twice.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 26, 2017 19:11:23 GMT
There is an important aspect to the Well of Sorrows and that is surrendering your freedom of thought and action to the spirits of the Well. Remember at this point we have been told that Mythal is dead and whilst there is the faint possibility she may have survived in some form, at the time of the decision you are essentially putting yourself at the mercy of the spirits of the priesthood. The Dalish have a deep suspicion of anything involving the use of spirits, particularly dead ones. There is also their mantra "never again will we submit". Retaining their freedom is all important to the Dalish so giving it up to some unknown force would not be something you would do lightly. Even if they didn't take their role of Inquisitor seriously for the sake of the wider population, everything they do as Inquisitor will have an effect on their clan (if still alive) and the Dalish people as a whole since unclosed rifts and rampant demons affect everyone. The Inquisitor is the only person who can close these. If the spirits stop you from doing this or simply kill you, then everyone is screwed, including the Dalish.
That said, my male Lavellan was very tempted because he didn't trust Morrigan and there could possibly be so much ancient knowledge there that would benefit his people. However, when Dorian said "I would not lose you to the Well" he declined not just because he didn't want to do that to Dorian but also because it actually jolted him to his senses that he could potentially die or become enslaved by the Well.
My female Lavellan, in a relationship with Solas, didn't do it because Solas declined wanting to have anything to do with it, which set alarm bells ringing, and then Cole told her she didn't want those voices in her head. When an actual spirit is telling you to back off from something as a bad idea, you tend to listen.
To be honest, I think you would have to be personally ambitious, whether an elf or not, to risk drinking from the Well. Even if you don't trust Morrigan with the knowledge later, you can at least trust her to help you stop Corypheus. When you think about it, even Corypheus didn't want to drink from the Well himself. If he was afraid to drink then that has to be strong reason not to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 19:25:13 GMT
There is an important aspect to the Well of Sorrows and that is surrendering your freedom of thought and action to the spirits of the Well. Remember at this point we have been told that Mythal is dead and whilst there is the faint possibility she may have survived in some form, at the time of the decision you are essentially putting yourself at the mercy of the spirits of the priesthood. The Dalish have a deep suspicion of anything involving the use of spirits, particularly dead ones. There is also their mantra "never again will we submit". Retaining their freedom is all important to the Dalish so giving it up to some unknown force would not be something you would do lightly. Even if they didn't take their role of Inquisitor seriously for the sake of the wider population, everything they do as Inquisitor will have an effect on their clan (if still alive) and the Dalish people as a whole since unclosed rifts and rampant demons affect everyone. The Inquisitor is the only person who can close these. If the spirits stop you from doing this or simply kill you, then everyone is screwed, including the Dalish. That said, my male Lavellan was very tempted because he didn't trust Morrigan and there could possibly be so much ancient knowledge there that would benefit his people. However, when Dorian said "I would not lose you to the Well" he declined not just because he didn't want to do that to Dorian but also because it actually jolted him to his senses that he could potentially die or become enslaved by the Well. My female Lavellan, in a relationship with Solas, didn't do it because Solas declined wanting to have anything to do with it, which set alarm bells ringing, and then Cole told her she didn't want those voices in her head. When an actual spirit is telling you to back off from something as a bad idea, you tend to listen. To be honest, I think you would have to be personally ambitious, whether an elf or not, to risk drinking from the Well. Even if you don't trust Morrigan with the knowledge later, you can at least trust her to help you stop Corypheus. When you think about it, even Corypheus didn't want to drink from the Well himself. If he was afraid to drink then that has to be strong reason not to do so.You would assume this would make any Inquisitor take a step back and decline to drink. I mean, a person who is close to being a demi-god in the eyes of most of the world is giving a big 'Hell No'. Corypheus draws from multiple sources of magic and your entire inner circle is aware of this. And even he is saying no? This should make any question if the pros really do outweigh the cons. If Corypheus isn't capable/certain that he can overcome the geas, then a logical Inquisitor would know they definitely aren't. And I don't remember if the point of Corypheus denying to drink from the Well comes up during decision time, either by companion or Morrigan? It has been awhile.
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Post by phoray on Apr 27, 2017 0:07:06 GMT
If you consider yourself to already be bound to the will of Mythal- really believed you're following her tents and wishes-- then there should not be any fear of drinking.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 1:22:16 GMT
If you consider yourself to already be bound to the will of Mythal- really believed you're following her tents and wishes-- then there should not be any fear of drinking. Well, that could possibly only be the case for a devout Dalish Inquisitor. And even then, they would need to be Chantry Sister/Templar Order type devout for that not to make an Inquisitor take a second to really think about drinking. When the concept of being 'bound to the Will' of -well, anything- gets uttered, the first thought is going to be 'your everything is tied to X'. Only someone super steadfast and gun-ho in their beliefs is going to be like 'yeah, certainly! ' without taking a moment to consider if that's really the way they want to live their life and take a chance that its not going to end badly when even a power-hungry demi-god was trying to foster the repercussions on someone else.
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Post by close2myheart on Apr 27, 2017 2:28:51 GMT
I'd say if a Dalish who is steadfast in her faith to the Creators and held tight to her roots of origin, I'd say that s/he would likely jump to the well withouth hesitation. Consequences be damned.
This is the well of knowledge, containing COUNTLES information of the Elvhen People, ancient lore long forgotten. This will be as close as s/he can get to something from the days of Elvhenan and Arlathan still stood tall.
.. Should s/he back down from it? Heck no. It should be considered an HONOR to be a part of Mythal, even if it means surrendering your freewill to her.
"Never again shall we submit" can be taken in many other ways. Several what I have in mind are :
1. Not to bow to any oppressive force and live life as you see fit.
2. Or as a united force, of 'us' (elves) against 'them' (shem lords).
Truthfully, my Lavellan before Inquisition will find it offensive that a human witch would take even a drop of water from that well. She would happily swim in it even with Cole's warning and a written 'of SORROWS' being labled to the well.
She has sworn herself to a life of being a keeper of ancient lore, for her People and for their Creators (especially one as prominent as Mythal) Paying it with her soul, is a small price indeed.
... Then Inquisition happens XD.
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Post by phoray on Apr 27, 2017 2:51:01 GMT
The Lavellan I have planned for Solas has her own nickname and has been Elvhen Criminal Hunter- deeting out justice, in the name of Mythal, even when it tears at her soul to do so.
Drinking that well? She's not even going to ask what people think. She'll laugh in Morrigan's face as she walks into another layer of the destiny she's been living all her 50 years of life. There is no turning back after what she's done so far for her people.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 27, 2017 2:53:33 GMT
I don't think its "morally reprehensible" to not drink from the Well as a First, for reasons others have stated, particularly Midnight's point about not all clans necessarily considering the Well something worth drinking. But you can certainly have a Lavellan that would think it their duty to drink, especially if their chosen god is Mythal and they're really devout. But then again, isn't it the First's primary responsibility to "protect" their clan? You need your free will to do that. What if the well's geas makes you turn on your clan? Abelas has made no bones up to that point that he does not consider you to be of his people. He's willing to not kill you if you do things right, but there's no guarantee that the will of the well he serves will be as charitable, or that your clan will do things right enough to warrant that consideration.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 27, 2017 2:58:42 GMT
Wildly off the current topic, I find myself looking for fanfic recs.
I'm looking for fics with the following situation: someone is trying to hide how much they know about him, but Solas is getting suspicious. Whether he's calmly thinking "hm I might need to kill this person to maintain my secret", or whether he's internally panicking - either way is cool. I just like the dance that happens when both people are trying their hardest not to act shifty, but also need to know how much the other person knows. So they're both probing for information, but trying to mask it as normal conversation.
A lot of "Modern Person In Thedas" fics have that exact situation... though I think I've read most of the ones I'm interested in. The other person doesn't have to be modern, they could be a normal Thedosian that stumbles onto Solas info accidentally (a la Tranquility). I don't care what background they have, or what romances (if any) are involved. All I want is the mutual suspicion.
Anyone got recommendations?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 27, 2017 3:07:24 GMT
My Lavellan was a rogue, not a mage. She had the Arcane Knowledge perk because she was intelligent and curious, and clearly saw that knowing about magic would be of use to her in trying to figure out how to defeat an ancient mage. Because of the Arcane Knowledge, she had a conversational tree with Morrigan where she (my Inquisitor) figures out that the Well places a geas on the drinker. Still, she drank from the Well because Solas strongly counselled not to let Morrigan drink it, and also not to leave it for Corypheus. So then she asked him if he would drink it, and we know what happens with that! Well, that didn't really leave her with any options. Morrigan was too ambitious and also rather insulting since she says that it would be wasted on my Lavellan since she is not a mage. (My Lavellan had some pride!) Solas wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. When my Lavellan suggested that maybe Abelas was right and they SHOULD destroy it, both Solas and Morrigan told her that was a bad idea.
So, in the end, when all other options seemed to be worse, she chose the one where she drinks the Well herself.
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Post by lucidae on Apr 27, 2017 9:31:44 GMT
Hey folks, been a long time since I've been in here. But since MEA was recently released I was scrounging around the forums looking for possible DA4 Juice and theory crafting.
However, I got distracted by an the art posts and saw a picture of Lavellan pinning Solas to a bed.
And it reminded me of how Weekes intentionally left the sexual activity of the Solas romance pretty ambiguous and left it up to our imaginations. Even though he has that quote of "getting you into bed is just an enjoyable side benefit." He still could've just been joking/flirting.
So for the Solasmancers out there I'm curious how you perceived the physicality of the romance.
My Lavellan was a tempest archer who had a pretty cool/aloof demeanor for the most part, but she did warm up to certain people.
Since their first kiss happens in the fade and for other reasons I imagine they only ever made love in the fade if it even ever went past just making out. And even then it was only a handful of times at most. I imagine it this way for my character because of how remorseful Solas was, as well as the two being pretty private individuals. Sure people could pick up they had a thing for each other, but no one ever saw anything remotely close to physical affection unlike in Cullen romance for example where he is about to kiss her and the guard shows up. I also think Solas would prefer to have those experiences in the fade and I see him being a bit more carefree and relaxed there as well. Less likely to be so strict with himself there and to be more passionate.
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Post by Seven Zettabytes on Apr 27, 2017 9:38:45 GMT
Even for a Dalish Inquisitor who isn't strongly devout or has lost their faith throughout the course of the game, I couldn't ever not make them drink. It doesn't feel right. The main thing we always hear about the Dalish is that they strive to regain their lost history, and the Well is the combined knowledge of many. For a Dalish Inquisitor who's probably been taught all their lives that restoring lost knowledge is of the utmost importance, that Well sounds like a goldmine and worth any kind of sacrifice for their people. That's something that I don't think will change even now Lavellan leads many more people than just the Dalish, I think that would only strengthen it, because the Well is obviously important to Corypheus' plans.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 27, 2017 11:06:20 GMT
I don't think its "morally reprehensible" to not drink from the Well as a First, for reasons others have stated, particularly Midnight's point about not all clans necessarily considering the Well something worth drinking. But you can certainly have a Lavellan that would think it their duty to drink, especially if their chosen god is Mythal and they're really devout. But then again, isn't it the First's primary responsibility to "protect" their clan? You need your free will to do that. What if the well's geas makes you turn on your clan? Abelas has made no bones up to that point that he does not consider you to be of his people. He's willing to not kill you if you do things right, but there's no guarantee that the will of the well he serves will be as charitable, or that your clan will do things right enough to warrant that consideration. Protecting the clan is the Keeper's duty. The First is just the one who stays at camp with her nose stuck in old books all the time.
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Post by CapricornSun on Apr 27, 2017 17:12:30 GMT
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Post by Iddy on Apr 27, 2017 18:24:11 GMT
I was just thinking about their experiences and I've come to the conclusion Lavellan is more challenged as a person than Mahariel.
You see, the Warden is a soldier. His/her job is to slay beasts and s/he doesn't need to interact with humans beyond what is strictly necessary, which allows him/her to remain... detached. The distance between Mahariel and human society is mostly intact.
On the other hand, Lavellan isn't just a protector fighting far away from people's eyes. Her role is political first and foremost. She deals with the affairs of other races regularly and attends the occasional social event as well. The cultural isolation she was used to is completely shattered, and she truly becomes part of the rest of the world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 27, 2017 18:45:28 GMT
One thing you are never allowed to consider but which was a possibility if you did Champions of the Just, was let Morrigan drink and then use Corypheus' binding ritual on her. After all, that was his solution to wanting the knowledge of the Well without having to risk the geas himself. Even without the binding ritual, you could still insist that Morrigan doesn't just leave, taking the knowledge with her in case it might be needed for other things. At the very least you could have asked her a few questions about important things like the Black City, in case the spirits had any insight. Although, to be honest, it would seem the spirits are no more forthcoming about information than either Flemeth or Morrigan had been in the past. If you drink, you would think you could have discovered so much more than confirm the identity of Mythal, read a few old texts, tame a dragon and talk to the spirits in Trespasser. Question number one: Who killed Mythal? (asked after returning from the Well), then a whole string more after meeting Flemeth, seeing Fen'Harel's sanctuary, etc. Surely the spirits must have some of the answers? Clearly, though, they must be controlling your PC because you never think to ask.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 27, 2017 18:55:20 GMT
I was just thinking about their experiences and I've come to the conclusion Lavellan is more challenged as a person than Mahariel. You see, the Warden is a soldier. His/her job is to slay beasts and s/he doesn't need to interact with humans beyond what is strictly necessary, which allows him/her to remain... detached. The distance between Mahariel and human society is mostly intact. On the other hand, Lavellan isn't just a protector fighting far away from people's eyes. Her role is political first and foremost. She deals with the affairs of other races regularly and attends the occasional social event as well. The cultural isolation she was used to is completely shattered, and she truly becomes part of the rest of the world. That's the reason why I keep telling not to put equal sign between Warden and Inquisitor at times when they're actively compared. Yes, their stories bear similarities as both are larger-than-life heroes who can do amazing things, but ultimately those are two different stories with heroes facing different challenges.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 27, 2017 19:06:04 GMT
One thing you are never allowed to consider but which was a possibility if you did Champions of the Just, was let Morrigan drink and then use Corypheus' binding ritual on her. After all, that was his solution to wanting the knowledge of the Well without having to risk the geas himself. Even without the binding ritual, you could still insist that Morrigan doesn't just leave, taking the knowledge with her in case it might be needed for other things. At the very least you could have asked her a few questions about important things like the Black City, in case the spirits had any insight. Although, to be honest, it would seem the spirits are no more forthcoming about information than either Flemeth or Morrigan had been in the past. If you drink, you would think you could have discovered so much more than confirm the identity of Mythal, read a few old texts, tame a dragon and talk to the spirits in Trespasser. Question number one: Who killed Mythal? (asked after returning from the Well), then a whole string more after meeting Flemeth, seeing Fen'Harel's sanctuary, etc. Surely the spirits must have some of the answers? Clearly, though, they must be controlling your PC because you never think to ask. That assumes that Inquisitor knows how to use the binding ritual. And from the looks of it, Corypheus has groomed both Calpernia and Samson for months in order to be able to use the binding - and that's assuming that Morrigan simply ain't more powerful and versed in arcane arts (which she likely is - she IS Flemythal's daughter on top of that too, so even if Well Of Sorrows might have effect over her, perhaps nothing of smaller caliber could). And on top of that it assumes that Corypheus' binding would work as intended in the first place, and not be swiftly overridden by by power of the Well or its restrictions. We can't assume that those who drank from the Well have access to all knowledge, immediately - in fact we see from different effects on Morrigan and Inquisitor that those not versed in some ancient magical tricks understand less than Morrigan does... and even she didn't immediately access information that would even let her know who Mythal was or is. Ancient elves knew their magic well. So we can't assume that their magical devices don't have restrictions, like even our older computers have. "You don't have a password or you're not an administrator? Well sorry then, hon, you don't have access to this tier of information." Perhaps they can be overridden... but then again, we'd have to know how to override them.
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Post by Julilla on Apr 27, 2017 20:54:54 GMT
Art Post again. The frilly cake one was too cute. I have a feeling Lavellan is going to wake up to an empty box of frilly cakes. And Solas will be nowhere to be found. Just a trail of crumbs to an Eluvian remain.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 27, 2017 21:28:53 GMT
Art Post again. The frilly cake one was too cute. I have a feeling Lavellan is going to wake up to an empty box of frilly cakes. And Solas will be nowhere to be found. Just a trail of crumbs to an Eluvian remain. ~_~.... Now I have an image of Lavellan setting traps on Solas everywhere with frilly cakes as bait.
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Post by Auirel on Apr 28, 2017 14:50:28 GMT
One thing you are never allowed to consider but which was a possibility if you did Champions of the Just, was let Morrigan drink and then use Corypheus' binding ritual on her. After all, that was his solution to wanting the knowledge of the Well without having to risk the geas himself. Even without the binding ritual, you could still insist that Morrigan doesn't just leave, taking the knowledge with her in case it might be needed for other things. At the very least you could have asked her a few questions about important things like the Black City, in case the spirits had any insight. Although, to be honest, it would seem the spirits are no more forthcoming about information than either Flemeth or Morrigan had been in the past. If you drink, you would think you could have discovered so much more than confirm the identity of Mythal, read a few old texts, tame a dragon and talk to the spirits in Trespasser. Question number one: Who killed Mythal? (asked after returning from the Well), then a whole string more after meeting Flemeth, seeing Fen'Harel's sanctuary, etc. Surely the spirits must have some of the answers? Clearly, though, they must be controlling your PC because you never think to ask. I think the spirits of the Well are controlled by Mythal, so it isn't exactly in Mythal's best interest to give away too much information (she has her own agenda after all). Even if the Inquisitor or Morrigan asks, they might end up receiving silence. Better yet, have the spirits mutter unintelligble gibberish just to make it seem as though the spirits are responding, but that the Inquisitor or Morrigan just aren't able to understand it yet. And besides, Mythal loves theatricality. The beginning of DA:2 comes to mind. Also now you've made me realise that Bioware really missed an opportunity for the Inquisitor to ride into the final battle against Corypheus ON A DRAGON!!But I guess there's always DA:4. One day we'll ride a dragon. One day...
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Post by close2myheart on Apr 28, 2017 16:04:26 GMT
Better yet, Mythal giving the next protag a piggy back ride on her dragon form XD .. well, in DAI ppl insist into labeling you as 'Herald of Andraste' no matter what your stance on it or wether or not you believe in the Maker. So it's fair game to have the next protag as 'Chosen of Mythal'. Bet it'll be funny playing a devout HN who has no choice but be a part of Mythalen lol.
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