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Post by midnight tea on May 2, 2017 20:14:20 GMT
People also seem to forget that game mechanics make it seem as though the Chargers only comprise 7 people but in reality these are the main chargers, his inner circle so to speak, that have probably been with him the longest. However, according to WoT2, the Chargers true figure is around 50 standing members, still considered small by mercenary standards and more of a task force than a private army. They are also said to be one of the most prestigious companies in all of Thedas. So the choice is in fact between an elite mercenary band that has absolutely proven their usefulness and loyalty to your organisation, against a dubious alliance with the Qun. So far as I was concerned, the Qunari wanted us to stop red lyrium being shipped to Tevinter to be used in the war against them. We successfully achieved this. Everything that followed was outside of the remit and seemed like a set up from where I was standing. The Qun should have scouted the area better, so either incompetent or failed to pass on vital information. So the loss of the dreadnought was down to them. From character standpoint, Demands of the Qun works since Iron Bull would never have willing choose between the Qun and the Bull's Chargers until forced to. From a logic and tactical standpoint however, it's a mess. By this point in the story, both the Inquisition and Chargers knew that they could face Venatori Mages at any time, and should adapt accordingly. Even if the Inquisition couldn't marshal proper support lest the Venatori get tipped off, the Chargers couldn't work with Inquisition Scouts already in the area, and/or The Blades of Hessarian? They couldn't hit and run, have Dalish put up barriers while Rocky, Skinner and other archers throw suppression fire? They could beat Envy, but not a couple of glass cannons? It seems another instance of Bioware weakening characters in order manufacture a false dilemma. The Qun have specifically forbade Inquisition to use any large force, fearing that the Venatori will realize they're tracked and about to be ambushed. We can even address it when talking with Gatt.
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Post by Walter Black on May 2, 2017 20:33:32 GMT
From character standpoint, Demands of the Qun works since Iron Bull would never have willing choose between the Qun and the Bull's Chargers until forced to. From a logic and tactical standpoint however, it's a mess. By this point in the story, both the Inquisition and Chargers knew that they could face Venatori Mages at any time, and should adapt accordingly. Even if the Inquisition couldn't marshal proper support lest the Venatori get tipped off, the Chargers couldn't work with Inquisition Scouts already in the area, and/or The Blades of Hessarian? They couldn't hit and run, have Dalish put up barriers while Rocky, Skinner and other archers throw suppression fire? They could beat Envy, but not a couple of glass cannons? It seems another instance of Bioware weakening characters in order manufacture a false dilemma. The Qun have specifically forbade Inquisition to use any large force, fearing that the Venatori will realize they're tracked and about to be ambushed. We can even address it when talking with Gatt. I'm not talking about a large force, but simply our people who were already in the area to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 21:32:20 GMT
Well I suppose the Blades of Hessarian would be a wild-card actually. It would depend on what assignments that they could already be on and if there were enough members not currently away on another assignment when the Qunari asked for assistance. Remember they are a rag-tag gang and not necessarily an army or anything, more like a small group similar to the fifty odd men/women like the Chargers.
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Post by midnight tea on May 2, 2017 22:11:20 GMT
The Qun have specifically forbade Inquisition to use any large force, fearing that the Venatori will realize they're tracked and about to be ambushed. We can even address it when talking with Gatt. I'm not talking about a large force, but simply our people who were already in the area to begin with. Neither Scouts or the Blades would stand much chance against Venatori - which is why Chargers didn't.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on May 2, 2017 23:27:06 GMT
There is the mitigating factor that the Dreadnought is not "countless" strangers and the whole thing smacks of a setup by the Qunari to test Bull's loyalty if you read btwn the lines as you go through it, but still a good point. Glad I'm not the only one who thought it might be a secret test of character. Wouldn't have been hard for the Qunari to take an old Dreadnought (that maybe was intended to be scrapped anyway), place only a skeleton crew onboard, so there'd be little collateral damage if Bull decided to go against the Qun and save his men over the ship. Whereas if Bull chose to follow the Qun and save the Dreadnought, the Qunari would lose absolutely nothing. Seems like the kind of stunt they'd pull. I honestly have no problem believing that the Dreadnought was fully staffed. The Qunari see people as tools, valued for their usefulness and purpose. They're not above sacrificing more than a skeleton crew if they feel it was necessary to maintain the ruse. But other than that, yeah, that's how I saw that quest. Glad I'm not the only one who thought it might be a secret test of character. Wouldn't have been hard for the Qunari to take an old Dreadnought (that maybe was intended to be scrapped anyway), place only a skeleton crew onboard, so there'd be little collateral damage if Bull decided to go against the Qun and save his men over the ship. Whereas if Bull chose to follow the Qun and save the Dreadnought, the Qunari would lose absolutely nothing. Seems like the kind of stunt they'd pull. An interesting theory, but I don't know if I completely buy it. For a number of reasons: 1. The Qunari obsess over not wasting resources, and endangering the dreadnought and crew just to test one spy doesn't seem very utilitarian. Especially when Mark of the Assassin and later Trespasser imply that they have more than enough so that Bull alone wouldn't be that valuable. 2. Setting up all these variables endanger the real mission of keeping red lyrium from getting to Tevinter. There any number of ways the Ben-Hassrath could test Hissrad's loyalty without risking that. 3. Piloting a dreadnought so far outside Qunari controlled waters also runs the risk, however unlikely, of outsiders getting gattlok from the sip's wreckage. 1. Considering what happens when you choose the Qun, I think its safe to say Bull is actually that valuable. If his ties to the Qun are enforced here, they get a sleeper agent at the Inquisitor's right hand, ready and willing to take him/her out at a word. And in the meantime he's up-to-date on all Inquisition activities, including any possible "Fen'Harel links" once the Qun starts to suspect we're involved with him, making his presence and position in the Inquisition extremely valuable to the Qun. Thus he is extremely valuable to the Qun. But they doubt his loyalty, so they hatch a plan to test him. And they need it to be believable cus he'd recognize deviations from normal procedure. I think they'd be willing to endanger a full crew for the possible reward of a loyal sleeper agent in Bull's shoes. 2. There's a good deal of territory btwn the spot on the storm coast where we confront them and Tevinter. The Qunari have agents all over the Free Marches. They could still try to take out the red lyrium if the operation on the Storm Coast went sideways if they really wanted to. Although its a bit of a silly idea that this one shipment is the end all be all of red lyrium shipments to Tevinter. Unless the Qunari were constantly patrolling the waking sea and sinking Venatori ships, and patrolling all land routes, its almost guaranteed at least some red lyriuim has made its way into the Imperium. Not to mention the fact that you can probably just make the stuff from scratch once you realize its simply blighted lyrium. The Imperium has lyrium trade with Orzammar and the blighted land of the Anderfells right next door. Its almost a guarantee we have not seen the last of red lyrium in this franchise, especially when we go up north. I don't think its realistic to think the operation on the storm coast actually did much of anything in the way of stopping red lyrium from reaching Tevinter. And you take out the camps of venatori anyway, regardless of who you choose to save, so the mission is still a success in that regard, I think. Maybe. Strangely (or conveniently?) the actual issue of whether you actually stopped the shipping of the lyrium doesn't come up once that choice on the hill happens. 3. Yes. But like Bull said, the ship is rigged to explode as a matter of course. So its no more risky for them there than it is in border skirmishes up north.
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Post by arvaarad on May 3, 2017 0:48:46 GMT
Glad I'm not the only one who thought it might be a secret test of character. Wouldn't have been hard for the Qunari to take an old Dreadnought (that maybe was intended to be scrapped anyway), place only a skeleton crew onboard, so there'd be little collateral damage if Bull decided to go against the Qun and save his men over the ship. Whereas if Bull chose to follow the Qun and save the Dreadnought, the Qunari would lose absolutely nothing. Seems like the kind of stunt they'd pull. An interesting theory, but I don't know if I completely buy it. For a number of reasons: 1. The Qunari obsess over not wasting resources, and endangering the dreadnought and crew just to test one spy doesn't seem very utilitarian. Especially when Mark of the Assassin and later Trespasser imply that they have more than enough so that Bull alone wouldn't be that valuable. 2. Setting up all these variables endanger the real mission of keeping red lyrium from getting to Tevinter. There any number of ways the Ben-Hassrath could test Hissrad's loyalty without risking that. 3. Piloting a dreadnought so far outside Qunari controlled waters also runs the risk, however unlikely, of outsiders getting gattlok from the sip's wreckage. True. For all their faults, the Qunari are more humane in some aspects. I think wasting life is one of those. Sure, they'll take away people's freedom, even their minds. And bas are fair game. But they seem more averse to outright loss of life, compared to the rest of Thedas. Of course, the rest of Thedas is vaguely medieval/renaissance, so the bar on "valuing life" is pretty low. That said, they could be running on a bigger scale of lives lost. Suppose they see the Inquisitor as a very large threat, maybe because they have more research on the power of the Mark. Clearly Viddasala thinks this way, though it's unclear if she's a rogue agent or if her fears are shared by higher-ups. If they are, the Qunari might decide that it's critical to ensure the loyalty of their sleeper agent. Because we control them, it's easy to forget that the Inquisitor is basically a one-person, completely unchecked nuke. They need no one's approval to use the Mark. There is no careful process. If the Inquisitor goes mad, and Hissrad doesn't follow his orders immediately, the Inquisitor could singlehandedly doom all of Thedas. The Qunari might reasonably decide that risking 100 lives, and even the secret of gaatlok, is outweighed by the risk of an assassination that comes too late.
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Post by CapricornSun on May 3, 2017 5:15:32 GMT
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Post by Walter Black on May 3, 2017 15:21:35 GMT
I'm not talking about a large force, but simply our people who were already in the area to begin with. Neither Scouts or the Blades would stand much chance against Venatori - which is why Chargers didn't. Yet they were perfectly able to take out Envy and any remaining Red Templars still at Therinfal. I guess Bioware didn't have to be consistent there since it wasn't a Companion Crisis Moment .
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Post by midnight tea on May 3, 2017 15:51:35 GMT
Neither Scouts or the Blades would stand much chance against Venatori - which is why Chargers didn't. Yet they were perfectly able to take out Envy and any remaining Red Templars still at Therinfal. I guess Bioware didn't have to be consistent there since it wasn't a Companion Crisis Moment . Why do you assume it is "inconsistency", instead of making a logical assumption that the Venatori on Storm Coast are simply more dangerous than Red Templars and Envy ? (nevermind that they likely used different tactics to approach those) I mean heck - they manage to drown Qunari dreadnought if we save the Chargers.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 3, 2017 19:18:37 GMT
I agree that after what we discover in Trespasser it is clear the Qun was as much concerned about the Inquisitor and their mark as they were about Corypheus and red lyrium. They wanted the latter stopped but even more they wanted to confirm Bull in his position as their inside man. Had the Gaatlok plan been successful in taking out the leadership across the south, if that hadn't included the Inquisitor in its victims, it was likely that Bull would have received his orders to take them out immediately after. The Inquisition as an organisation was a threat to any plans they might have for the south, which is why they tried to discredit them as part of their plan, but the Inquisitor with their magic hand was a wild card that they would definitely want eliminated once they felt they no longer needed them. I think the Viddasala also spoke on behalf of the Qun when she expressed the surprise that the Inquisitor was still being allowed to run around lose with their magical bauble after they had fulfilled their purpose with regard to Corypheus and the Breach. It also wouldn't have surprised me to learn that agents of the Qun had been helping to fan the flames of discontent with the Inquisition among the nobility in the south.
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Post by midnight tea on May 3, 2017 20:56:23 GMT
I agree that after what we discover in Trespasser it is clear the Qun was as much concerned about the Inquisitor and their mark as they were about Corypheus and red lyrium. They wanted the latter stopped but even more they wanted to confirm Bull in his position as their inside man. Had the Gaatlok plan been successful in taking out the leadership across the south, if that hadn't included the Inquisitor in its victims, it was likely that Bull would have received his orders to take them out immediately after. The Inquisition as an organisation was a threat to any plans they might have for the south, which is why they tried to discredit them as part of their plan, but the Inquisitor with their magic hand was a wild card that they would definitely want eliminated once they felt they no longer needed them. I think the Viddasala also spoke on behalf of the Qun when she expressed the surprise that the Inquisitor was still being allowed to run around lose with their magical bauble after they had fulfilled their purpose with regard to Corypheus and the Breach. It also wouldn't have surprised me to learn that agents of the Qun had been helping to fan the flames of discontent with the Inquisition among the nobility in the south. That's quite a conspiracy theory... on the other hand the Exalted Council was organized because of rising tension between Inquisition and Southern leadership, and the Qunari wanted to blow the whole thing to smithereens On the other OTHER hand, the tensions would rise anyway, because many of the issues on the South concerning Inquisition were valid, and Qunari wanted to blow other seats of power on the South at the same time. But yeah, even with them planning a full-blown attack on South, getting rid of Inquisitor would be a priority for them. Hand or not, they'd be killing a person who is not only widely considered a hero (and depending on the world-state, possibly the only living hero of those South had), but a literal godsend. Inquisitor is a symbol, as much as they're a leader and they'd be so with Anchor or surrounding Inquisition or not. The Qunari killing a person who was essential in getting the South from the brink would severely impact people's morale - and aside from paralyzing administration, that was the whole point of the operation.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 4, 2017 18:22:07 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that.
What has always been more of a problem for me was how the Viddasala knew the "agent of Fen'Harel" aka Solas had given his orb to Corypheus. So far as I was aware, Solas did not do this personally in order to distance himself from proceedings. His identity would have been a closely guarded secret and I thought that the only person outside his trusted agents who would have known this prior to Trespasser was Flemeth. Yet Viddasala was aware of the whole thing, which we only figured out because of various clues left lying around and our prior knowledge of Solas. So how did she know he was an agent of Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know he was Fen'Harel himself)?
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Post by Elessara on May 4, 2017 20:58:04 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that. What has always been more of a problem for me was how the Viddasala knew the "agent of Fen'Harel" aka Solas had given his orb to Corypheus. So far as I was aware, Solas did not do this personally in order to distance himself from proceedings. His identity would have been a closely guarded secret and I thought that the only person outside his trusted agents who would have known this prior to Trespasser was Flemeth. Yet Viddasala was aware of the whole thing, which we only figured out because of various clues left lying around and our prior knowledge of Solas. So how did she know he was an agent of Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know he was Fen'Harel himself)? Uhh .... *waves hand* This IS the Agent of Fen'Harel you're looking for. (I mean, the Force isn't REAL magic after all, it's SPACE magic so it would work, right?)
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 21:13:19 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that. What has always been more of a problem for me was how the Viddasala knew the "agent of Fen'Harel" aka Solas had given his orb to Corypheus. So far as I was aware, Solas did not do this personally in order to distance himself from proceedings. His identity would have been a closely guarded secret and I thought that the only person outside his trusted agents who would have known this prior to Trespasser was Flemeth. Yet Viddasala was aware of the whole thing, which we only figured out because of various clues left lying around and our prior knowledge of Solas. So how did she know he was an agent of Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know he was Fen'Harel himself)? Because no one is interfering with Viddasala's investigation. My crazy tinfoil theory is that Leliana is (either knowingly or unknowingly) shielding Solas from inquiry. Not that she's necessarily working for Solas directly, but rather that whoever she's working for also wants certain double agents to slip through. What better way to broadly compromise the Inquisition, than by compromising the person at the very top? She's a skilled bard who lets Solas, his agents, and a bunch of Ben-Hassrath through - which, admittedly, could be down to the Inquisition's sheer size (after all, she misses Blackwall too). She received her visions through dreams, which many parties can manipulate, and if she dies the lyrium wakes her for some mysterious purpose, only to let her disperse after Trespasser. Again, all that could be convenient story hooks, or pure coincidence. However, for me, the most damning piece of evidence is that Leliana sends a letter to Sketch indicating that she knows about the existence of agents of Fen'Harel, including that they're former slaves, and that they're ancient. She never shares this information with the Inquisitor. I believe that something lyrium-related, maybe a titan, maybe the Stone, maybe something from the Void, wanted her to be the Inquisition's spymaster. Wanted her to wave through all manner of questionable agents. For what purpose, I don't know. But I do know she helped kickstart the Tevinter iteration of the Inquisition, so if she's compromised, the new-Inquisition is too. Potentially the Chantry as well, depending on ending.
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Post by Walter Black on May 4, 2017 22:07:22 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that. What has always been more of a problem for me was how the Viddasala knew the "agent of Fen'Harel" aka Solas had given his orb to Corypheus. So far as I was aware, Solas did not do this personally in order to distance himself from proceedings. His identity would have been a closely guarded secret and I thought that the only person outside his trusted agents who would have known this prior to Trespasser was Flemeth. Yet Viddasala was aware of the whole thing, which we only figured out because of various clues left lying around and our prior knowledge of Solas. So how did she know he was an agent of Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know he was Fen'Harel himself)? Because no one is interfering with Viddasala's investigation. My crazy tinfoil theory is that Leliana is (either knowingly or unknowingly) shielding Solas from inquiry. Not that she's necessarily working for Solas directly, but rather that whoever she's working for also wants certain double agents to slip through. What better way to broadly compromise the Inquisition, than by compromising the person at the very top? I'll be one the first to call out when video game writers force the Idiot Ball on the player and Compnaion NPCs in the name of "drama". However, is it possible in this case that a millennia old revolutionary just might be better at concealing his forces than a not yet forty spymaster? That it's less hero incompetence, and actual antagonist competence for once? Even on my first playthrough, I got the impression that Leliana did know about Thom Rainer. A softened Leliana could have supported his quest for redemption, while a hardened one could view him as a valuable tool. I never played Trespasser, so I can't comment on this letter. Did Leliana have actual proof, or only rumors? Did she have anything to believe that the agents of Fen'Harel where any different than the myriad of cults, revolutionaries, criminals and terrorists that the Inquisition deal with every day? Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar .
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Post by arvaarad on May 4, 2017 22:26:44 GMT
However, for me, the most damning piece of evidence is that Leliana sends a letter to Sketch indicating that she knows about the existence of agents of Fen'Harel, including that they're former slaves, and that they're ancient. She never shares this information with the Inquisitor. I never played Trespasser, so I can't comment on this letter. Did Leliana have actual proof, or only rumors? Did she have anything to believe that the agents of Fen'Harel where any different than the myriad of cults, revolutionaries, criminals and terrorists that the Inquisition deal with every day? The letter appears in World of Thedas 2, not Trespasser. I expect it would have been too spoilery in Trespasser. Leliana was certain enough to assert that Sketch was probably an AoF. She basically said "hey since you're from that ancient group, I could use a second pair of eyes on some ancient stuff." Like, it wasn't even the point of the letter, she just mentioned it offhand in that casual spymaster way. (and to clarify, I'm well aware this theory comes with about 15 layers of tinfoil - I'm slightly exaggerating my "certainty" in it )
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Post by midnight tea on May 5, 2017 0:01:55 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that. What has always been more of a problem for me was how the Viddasala knew the "agent of Fen'Harel" aka Solas had given his orb to Corypheus. So far as I was aware, Solas did not do this personally in order to distance himself from proceedings. His identity would have been a closely guarded secret and I thought that the only person outside his trusted agents who would have known this prior to Trespasser was Flemeth. Yet Viddasala was aware of the whole thing, which we only figured out because of various clues left lying around and our prior knowledge of Solas. So how did she know he was an agent of Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know he was Fen'Harel himself)? Because no one is interfering with Viddasala's investigation. My crazy tinfoil theory is that Leliana is (either knowingly or unknowingly) shielding Solas from inquiry. Not that she's necessarily working for Solas directly, but rather that whoever she's working for also wants certain double agents to slip through. What better way to broadly compromise the Inquisition, than by compromising the person at the very top? She's a skilled bard who lets Solas, his agents, and a bunch of Ben-Hassrath through - which, admittedly, could be down to the Inquisition's sheer size (after all, she misses Blackwall too). She received her visions through dreams, which many parties can manipulate, and if she dies the lyrium wakes her for some mysterious purpose, only to let her disperse after Trespasser. Again, all that could be convenient story hooks, or pure coincidence. However, for me, the most damning piece of evidence is that Leliana sends a letter to Sketch indicating that she knows about the existence of agents of Fen'Harel, including that they're former slaves, and that they're ancient. She never shares this information with the Inquisitor. I believe that something lyrium-related, maybe a titan, maybe the Stone, maybe something from the Void, wanted her to be the Inquisition's spymaster. Wanted her to wave through all manner of questionable agents. For what purpose, I don't know. But I do know she helped kickstart the Tevinter iteration of the Inquisition, so if she's compromised, the new-Inquisition is too. Potentially the Chantry as well, depending on ending. Iiii... don't think I'd take that far xD; I'd agree that there might be some yet unknown powers (of fate? Or whatever...) guiding some characters or nudging events, but I highly doubt Leliana is their conscious agent - I mean, heck... following that logic, Inquisitor could as well be considered an agent of higher powers, with all the bizarre coincidences happening around them, weird Sera dream where Inky - after job done - goes back to Andraste, cryptic stuff said by ghost!Justinia, Flemythal and entity on the desert and so on. Also - how do you know she didn't share information in the letter with Inquisitor? WOT 2 is established to be written after events of Inquisition (otherwise, for example, how they'd know that Solas has disappeared?) and at that time we know that ancient elves and their god exist and there's something fishy going on there, even if we didn't know it's Solas. In fact we don't really know the timeframe of letter being sent, or found. (also - Leliana knew who Blackwall was. From the start. You can tell when she says that Blackwall is '...not what she expected' and later Cullen brings documents gathered by Leli to Inky in the prison, and Inquisitor verbally acknowledges that she knew way earlier).
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Post by midnight tea on May 5, 2017 0:17:03 GMT
I'll admit the "fanning the flames" might be taking it a bit far but as for the rest, the Viddasala said that the moment the breach opened up the leadership decided something needed to be done about the south as they clearly couldn't control their magic users. Then of course they would have heard about the Inquisition being established to deal with the problem and that it was led by the Herald of Andraste, a religious title that would also be a provocation to them. Bear in mind, whilst many people probably rejected the title, equally they would have been those Inquisitors who fully embraced their "holy" status. The Qun would have to eventually put a stop to that. The Qunari are careful enough not to step in into stuff they're uncertain of (disregarding the power of mages is what kicked their arses during first invasion) - the strategy seems to be that if the South can deal with it on their own (and get weakened in the result) the better. They seemed to have similar mindset 10 years ago, when the Blight occurred. They've only sent high-level agents to monitor the situation and figure out what hit the lands they aimed to invade - Sten for Blight, and Iron Bull (and who knows who else) for the Breach/Corypheus. Of course, nobody could tell if they could have predicted Thedas unifying around one magical person and their organization - on the other hand, who could have predicted that? I wouldn't say Viddassala was aware of the whole thing - more like, Viddassala came to certain conclusions (based on events as well as what she may have uncovered during her research), and some of them were right (Fen'Harel had an orb and was at one point tied to Inquisition) and some of them were wrong (Solas being an agent of Fen'Harel, instead of Fen'Harel, or that he gave an orb to Corypheus). That's... kinda normal for people in Thedas to get some things right and some things wrong.
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Post by arvaarad on May 5, 2017 0:23:06 GMT
Because no one is interfering with Viddasala's investigation. My crazy tinfoil theory is that Leliana is (either knowingly or unknowingly) shielding Solas from inquiry. Not that she's necessarily working for Solas directly, but rather that whoever she's working for also wants certain double agents to slip through. What better way to broadly compromise the Inquisition, than by compromising the person at the very top? She's a skilled bard who lets Solas, his agents, and a bunch of Ben-Hassrath through - which, admittedly, could be down to the Inquisition's sheer size (after all, she misses Blackwall too). She received her visions through dreams, which many parties can manipulate, and if she dies the lyrium wakes her for some mysterious purpose, only to let her disperse after Trespasser. Again, all that could be convenient story hooks, or pure coincidence. However, for me, the most damning piece of evidence is that Leliana sends a letter to Sketch indicating that she knows about the existence of agents of Fen'Harel, including that they're former slaves, and that they're ancient. She never shares this information with the Inquisitor. I believe that something lyrium-related, maybe a titan, maybe the Stone, maybe something from the Void, wanted her to be the Inquisition's spymaster. Wanted her to wave through all manner of questionable agents. For what purpose, I don't know. But I do know she helped kickstart the Tevinter iteration of the Inquisition, so if she's compromised, the new-Inquisition is too. Potentially the Chantry as well, depending on ending. Iiii... don't think I'd take that far xD; I'd agree that there might be some yet unknown powers (of fate? Or whatever...) guiding some characters or nudging events, but I highly doubt Leliana is their conscious agent - I mean, heck... following that logic, Inquisitor could as well be considered an agent of higher powers, with all the bizarre coincidences happening around them, weird Sera dream where Inky - after job done - goes back to Andraste, cryptic stuff said by ghost!Justinia, Flemythal and entity on the desert and so on. Ah, I have it! Both Leliana and the Inquisitor are being puppeted by the cunning machinations of the Snake-Kings of the Earth, as part of their ancient war against Tevinter's Moon Men. With these terrible Truths now Unmasked, at last we may begin to decode the Ley Lines in Frostback Basin!
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Post by midnight tea on May 5, 2017 0:27:39 GMT
Iiii... don't think I'd take that far xD; I'd agree that there might be some yet unknown powers (of fate? Or whatever...) guiding some characters or nudging events, but I highly doubt Leliana is their conscious agent - I mean, heck... following that logic, Inquisitor could as well be considered an agent of higher powers, with all the bizarre coincidences happening around them, weird Sera dream where Inky - after job done - goes back to Andraste, cryptic stuff said by ghost!Justinia, Flemythal and entity on the desert and so on. Ah, I have it! Both Leliana and the Inquisitor are being puppeted by the cunning machinations of the Snake-Kings of the Earth, as part of their ancient war against Tevinter's Moon Men. With these terrible Truths now Unmasked, at last we may begin to decode the Ley Lines in Frostback Basin! Ley-lines and Leliana... coincidence???? I THINK NOT!!
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Post by arvaarad on May 5, 2017 1:59:54 GMT
Ley-lines and Leliana... coincidence???? None can say, but I will say yes as that would Fit My Theories.(this will always be my favorite line in Mysteries of the Frostback Basin)
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Post by midnight tea on May 5, 2017 2:29:19 GMT
Ley-lines and Leliana... coincidence???? None can say, but I will say yes as that would Fit My Theories.(this will always be my favorite line in Mysteries of the Frostback Basin) All that conspiracy theory satire is funny and all... until you realize just how many people are willing to believe in weird conspiracy theories IRL _^_ Only recently my cousin shocked me so much with some conspiracy stuff that I was apoplectic for days.
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Post by arvaarad on May 5, 2017 4:26:21 GMT
None can say, but I will say yes as that would Fit My Theories.(this will always be my favorite line in Mysteries of the Frostback Basin) All that conspiracy theory satire is funny and all... until you realize just how many people are willing to believe in weird conspiracy theories IRL _^_ Only recently my cousin shocked me so much with some conspiracy stuff that I was apoplectic for days. Oh for sure. Part of what gets me about MotFB, is how well they captured rationalizations I've heard. Used to have a housemate that was way into the pyramids=generators one and... something about the Illuminati. We had to be careful around him. Certain keywords would set off really ridiculous debates and/or monologues ending in "draw your own conclusions." I understand why conspiracies are so comforting, in real life. A lot of stuff happens randomly, and that can be frightening because you can't avoid random stuff. Or people will do evil stuff without malice, just a bunch of reasonable actions clashing together in a way that generates suffering. If there's a conspiracy, at least someone's steering the ship.
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Post by Iddy on May 5, 2017 12:38:32 GMT
All that conspiracy theory satire is funny and all... until you realize just how many people are willing to believe in weird conspiracy theories IRL _^_ Only recently my cousin shocked me so much with some conspiracy stuff that I was apoplectic for days. Oh for sure. Part of what gets me about MotFB, is how well they captured rationalizations I've heard. Used to have a housemate that was way into the pyramids=generators one and... something about the Illuminati. We had to be careful around him. Certain keywords would set off really ridiculous debates and/or monologues ending in "draw your own conclusions." I understand why conspiracies are so comforting, in real life. A lot of stuff happens randomly, and that can be frightening because you can't avoid random stuff. Or people will do evil stuff without malice, just a bunch of reasonable actions clashing together in a way that generates suffering. If there's a conspiracy, at least someone's steering the ship. I'd say it is far more comforting to believe randomness is random and nothing more. Imagine thinking there is a big and evil scheme at work and its sucess is inevitable because nobody acknowledges it as real. A conspiracy theory supporter has no peace of mind.
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Post by arvaarad on May 5, 2017 13:10:49 GMT
Oh for sure. Part of what gets me about MotFB, is how well they captured rationalizations I've heard. Used to have a housemate that was way into the pyramids=generators one and... something about the Illuminati. We had to be careful around him. Certain keywords would set off really ridiculous debates and/or monologues ending in "draw your own conclusions." I understand why conspiracies are so comforting, in real life. A lot of stuff happens randomly, and that can be frightening because you can't avoid random stuff. Or people will do evil stuff without malice, just a bunch of reasonable actions clashing together in a way that generates suffering. If there's a conspiracy, at least someone's steering the ship. I'd say it is far more comforting to believe randomness is random and nothing more. Imagine thinking there is a big and evil scheme at work and its sucess is inevitable because nobody acknowledges it as real. A conspiracy theory supporter has no peace of mind. I think for a conspiracy theorist, the comfort comes because they know about the existence of the shadowy puppeteers, and can adjust their behavior accordingly. If bad stuff just happens, with no possible way to avoid it or predict it, then how can they protect themselves from it? If there's a vast conspiracy, at least there are people, with motives they might be able to predict... if they spend enough time thinking about the theory. It's good, in a way, that few others believe. It means the conspiracy theorist has an information advantage - or so they think - over everyone else. They feel that they're better able to predict what kind of bad things will happen, better able to avoid them.
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