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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 15, 2024 21:53:36 GMT
Hmmmm.... okay, time to focus on some story tidbits surrounding Inky in relation to Solas. First - it does seem like Morrigan and Inquisitor are buddies in Veilguard; with Morrigan advising Inky, and Inky knowing this older, wiser Morrigan well enough to trust her advice. Anyway, given their experience in DAI and current friendly relationship, Inky has to know about Mythal's memories and - given that we also know that Morrigan knows about content of Solas' regrets - they're also probably privy to its contents. Never mind that they stumble upon the first piece of his memory somehow - the one that triggers being able to view all the others. And Morrigan tells Rook that only Inquisitor could bring that memory figurine to them, which... hmmmm. I HAVE to wonder how Inquisitor stumbled on that. Did they just recover it from Venatori/Antaam that managed it to snatch from parts of Crossroads we didn't see? Did they themselves explored that part of Crossroads? ...Or did Inky just got woken up by the figurine falling on their head one night? I assume the statuette was sent to her magically somehow. Whether it was intentional on Solas' part or not is hard to tell. It might just be a result of his regret surrounding her, the same way the others manifested near his other regrets.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Nov 16, 2024 22:00:58 GMT
Have you been able to recreate your Lavellans? I spent more than an hour in CC and despite my best efforts, fucjed up her jaw It's so sad I can't redo her and first time you can see your results in a game happens mid-story RIP my aspirations to use flycam For ref: DAI DAV (CC) Ingame T_T (every time she turns, profile is...bad) The curse of bad lighting was kept specifically for inky
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Post by Iddy on Nov 16, 2024 22:58:49 GMT
What is everyone's opinion on Solas killing Varric at the beginning?
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 16, 2024 23:53:01 GMT
What is everyone's opinion on Solas killing Varric at the beginning? It sucks, but Varric knew better than to go hand to hand with the Dread Wolf. There was only one way that could have ended.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 17, 2024 18:43:03 GMT
Have you been able to recreate your Lavellans? I spent more than an hour in CC and despite my best efforts, fucjed up her jaw It's so sad I can't redo her and first time you can see your results in a game happens mid-story RIP my aspirations to use flycam For ref: DAI DAV (CC) Ingame T_T (every time she turns, profile is...bad) The curse of bad lighting was kept specifically for inky I didn't, but at the same time... I didn't want to? The thing with my DAI character is that I could never create her the same (or even similar) way I've had her pictured in my head; or there were things about the way characters looked in DAI that frustrated me, even after using mods that were available when I played the game a few years back. So, in this regard, my Lavellan now looks much closer to how I picture her. With that said, before my 2nd playthrough, I did re-create her first in Rook's place and spent about a half a day tinkering her looks by replaying the first hour of the game - observing how she looks in several initial cutscenes in Lighthouse, then running back and forth to the transformation mirror and so on, until I've had what I was fine with. To my surprise it pretty heavily affected animations in proper Inquisitor cutscenes, with my 2nd attempt being much more expressive than the first one.
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Post by phoray on Nov 17, 2024 21:20:18 GMT
What is everyone's opinion on Solas killing Varric at the beginning? It sucks, but Varric knew better than to go hand to hand with the Dread Wolf. There was only one way that could have ended. The response is to blame the murder victim? He was just trying to get the dagger, not actually to kill Solas. It wasn't even a self defense kill.
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Post by theratpack55 on Nov 17, 2024 21:27:19 GMT
It sucks, but Varric knew better than to go hand to hand with the Dread Wolf. There was only one way that could have ended. The response is to blame the murder victim? He was just trying to get the dagger, not actually to kill Solas. It wasn't even a self defense kill. I'm no Solas stan but it was a fight for an outcome. Solas did what he had to do.
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Post by phoray on Nov 17, 2024 21:29:50 GMT
I'm no Solas stan but it was a fight for an outcome. Solas did what he had to do. It's fine. It's just interesting and unique to see what the diehard fans of Solas will rationalize. But I guess one more for the pile of corpses makes no difference, even if it's a massive pile.
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Post by theratpack55 on Nov 17, 2024 21:35:13 GMT
I'm no Solas stan but it was a fight for an outcome. Solas did what he had to do. It's fine. It's just interesting and unique to see what the diehard fans of Solas will rationalize. But I guess one more for the pile of corpses makes no difference, even if it's a massive pile. I mean, I never did his romance, and he was never a character that I got along with, I'm very much not an elf person... but in VG, after DAI, I kind of get what he's on about.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 18, 2024 6:07:00 GMT
I'm no Solas stan but it was a fight for an outcome. Solas did what he had to do. It's fine. It's just interesting and unique to see what the diehard fans of Solas will rationalize. But I guess one more for the pile of corpses makes no difference, even if it's a massive pile. Okay, this is not cool. A person just told you that they're no Solas stan, yet you still dismissed them. Dismissing someone's argument just on a basis on "because you're a diehard fan (and this everything you say is just emotional drivel)" is not a basis for rational argument, it's just an ad hominem attack. I mean, heck in the game itself, if one talks with Fade!Varric and picks an option "Solas killed you" Varric himself says that Solas didn't mean it. He's had all the chance in the world to turn Varric to stone or explode him earlier; he didn't do it - he only destroyed Bianca. He stabbed Varric only during the chaotic scramble where both sides fought for what they thought was the highest stakes.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 18, 2024 13:44:36 GMT
It's fine. It's just interesting and unique to see what the diehard fans of Solas will rationalize. But I guess one more for the pile of corpses makes no difference, even if it's a massive pile. Okay, this is not cool. A person just told you that they're no Solas stan, yet you still dismissed them. Dismissing someone's argument just on a basis on "because you're a diehard fan (and this everything you say is just emotional drivel)" is not a basis for rational argument, it's just an ad hominem attack. I mean, heck in the game itself, if one talks with Fade!Varric and picks an option "Solas killed you" Varric says that Solas didn't mean it. He's had all the chance in the world to turn Varric to stone or explode him earlier; he didn't do it - he only destroyed Bianca. He stabbed Varric only during the chaotic scramble where both sides fought for what they thought was the highest stakes. Not to mention that on the journey to the ritual site, real, living Varric himself said if it came down to a fight with the Dread Wolf, they would lose. He knew the risks. I was only repeating what he already said.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 18, 2024 23:04:05 GMT
It sucks, but Varric knew better than to go hand to hand with the Dread Wolf. There was only one way that could have ended. The response is to blame the murder victim? He was just trying to get the dagger, not actually to kill Solas. It wasn't even a self defense kill. Personally, I think he could easily repel Varric with a non-lethal magical blast or force field.
And really, this is the same guy who spared the Inquisitor in Trespasser even if the latter vowed to stop him.
This seemed rather OOC.
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Post by phoray on Nov 18, 2024 23:18:49 GMT
The response is to blame the murder victim? He was just trying to get the dagger, not actually to kill Solas. It wasn't even a self defense kill. Personally, I think he could easily repel Varric with a non-lethal magical blast or force field.
And really, this is the same guy who spared the Inquisitor in Trespasser even if the latter vowed to stop him.
This seemed rather OOC. Exactly. He chose to do this. Telling me that dagger got in the full 6 inches on accident? Nonesense
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 21, 2024 22:35:21 GMT
I must say Solas' personal mission in Inquisition hits a lot harder now. A spirit of wisdom taken from the fade, bound to service and commanded to fight? Oof. Explains the massive vitriol against the circle mages. So much projection.
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Post by Amburu on Nov 22, 2024 0:43:06 GMT
Hello everyone, Ive patched together the entire playthrough from various twitch creators and all the full endings from a youtube channel I AM BOTH VERY MUCH NOT OK AND EXTREMELY GRATEFUL, im going to read this thread in the near future but not right now at 1 am through my ocean of tears
here are all my raw impressions am sorry if im repeating stuff said a million times before. Some capitalized letters are involved. Warning for being a complete and absolute mess
THE BIGGEST ONE BEING THAT FINALLY AFTER ALL THIS TIME AND THROUGH ALL THIS IMMENSE TRAGIC PAIN, THE EGG HAS GOTTEN HIS OWN AR LASA MALA REVAS, IM S O B B I N G AND I REALISE THIS IS ALL IVE EVER WISHED FOR FOR THIS POOR BATTERED CHARACTER
ANOTHER ONE BEING THAT I LOVE THAT SO MUCH GREAT HEADCANONING GOT CONFIRMED !!!!!!!!! That for example Solas is a former wisdom spirit, all the elven people were spirits in the past, he wanted cole to remain a spirit because he wishes he'd never stopped, AND MANY MORE
DURING THE ENDING "and i'm a fool" GDL'S PERFORMANCE WAS INCREDIBLE ! THOSE PAINED CHUCKLES ??? HELLO ???????? I watched it twice just to make sure i was suffering an adequate amount, IM PRETTY SURE THAT WAS NEW STUFF AND IT WAS PERFECTLY HEARTWRENCHING 10/10
The sadness of the "normal" ending ("and i am a god") is unbearable, that he's fully become what he hated the most and will simmer in that wrongness for the rest of all eternity, all alone ???? Like the thing he feared the most in that fade quest ? (I would, personally, count that as dying in my book since I can only assume he's permanently removed from the plot afterwards)
Adding this in, right at the beginning, I got SO messed up by "people always die, it is what they do" and the sorrow that carried I was right back in that heartbreaking hell from the very first minutes
What a ride has Dragon Age been. I feel so privileged that I picked up DAO at random on the PS3's store during a sale despite not liking the gritty tone of dark fantasy and got attached to the elven lore, then sticking around for more despite everything else I had going on. In DAI I got invested in this elven historian that we called an apostate hobo before we doubted anything, now to be generously rewarded with this extraordinary emotional release despite being someone who doesnt feel much the vast majority of the time.
This game, this storyline, it gave me so much life. For a while I get to feel like a complete person once more, with intense feelings, a craving for art and poetry...
I dont know where to put this because i have no social media but, I'm hoping that everyone involved in making this story as great as it ended up becoming from the early stages of DAO brainstorming to the last possible tweaks in veilguard's events will know that they've successfully made such a worthwhile contribution to our cultural life. Some of us resonated with this piece of media to an unspeakable degree, for over a decade it remained on our minds, shedding tears and imagining a world were closure would be met, the day has arrived, and, I am glad that I was still there to be able to greet it
thank you so much weekes for forcing a Solas romance into DAI thank you so much
(also ive finally just read the last chapter of tevinter nights and I loved the wig, stellar work both meme and suffering-wise, you're a treasure. Someone then forwarded me the fancomic which was another fantastic treat)
is still crying some more and will probably not sleep
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Post by smilesja on Nov 22, 2024 2:09:32 GMT
The response is to blame the murder victim? He was just trying to get the dagger, not actually to kill Solas. It wasn't even a self defense kill. Personally, I think he could easily repel Varric with a non-lethal magical blast or force field.
And really, this is the same guy who spared the Inquisitor in Trespasser even if the latter vowed to stop him.
This seemed rather OOC. As we saw in his memories, he has no problem killing people who are loyal to him advance his cause though he is VERY regretful afterwards. Varric was in his way and wasn't going to back down. So, Solas felt he needed to kill him something that he was remorseful in doing so.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 22, 2024 2:45:07 GMT
IMO, if Solas had reservations about her survival in the Fade, or wherever they'll be together, he'd never risk taking her with him - but also, it seems that places like regret prison are places where physical sustenance either ain't a problem, or less of a problem, because there is moment in the game where Rook is sent physically to regret prison, and it is implied in dialogue and banter with companions that they were there for at least several days, yet we don't see Rook either drinking or eating, or complaining at being thirsty/hungry
Also, since we know that Fade sustenance is a thing and Solas must surely be an individual that knows how to sustain himself on the Fade (in fact, I wonder if it's what makes ancient elves immortal), I don't see why he wouldn't share the secret with Lavellan, and - given all the magical stuff she's dealt with - that she wouldn't learn fast. Yeah, I assume the food thing won't be too big an issue.
As for the immortality thing, I think we've been given an answer.
We know for a fact now that the Evanuris (and Solas himself) are just spirits housed in lyrium bodies. And we know spirits are eternal, provided they're not somehow destroyed.
But I also think ALL elves are like that. Even modern ones. Consider what Cole said about elven inky: "Pulled (spirit pulled from the fade), blood that is not blood (because lyrium), a tiny trace of time. Lips struggling to shape language your parents lived."
Kieran also says things: "Your blood is very old (because lyrium). I saw it right away."
And: "I just don't know why your people want to look like that." Presumably, the Evanuris chose the general elf shape, and everyone else just followed suit, I guess?
Then there's the Claws of Dumat text: Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade (because they're spirits), and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood (lyrium again).
This would also explain why any time an elf has a child with any other race, that child is ALWAYS entirely the other race. Because elf bodies aren't really...real, for lack of a better word. They're just highly detailed, fully functioning lyrium constructs.
That's what I'm getting from all this. Interesting to think about, anyway. The only thing I can't figure is how exactly the fade took away immortality. The mechanics of it elude me.
I keep thinking about this theory. I even checked, and it lines up with what both Gaider and Weekes have said about elven genetics. Or lack thereof. Gaider said that the reason there are no 'half-elves' is because of a, "supernatural origin relating to the nature of elves themselves." sourceAnd Weekes said that "elf-blooded" is purely a legal distinction, and there are no genetics in play. Children of elves and humans (or other) do not inherit any genetics from the elven parent. Am I way off on this? I feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist with this, but at the same time, it feels like it fits. I don't know.
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Post by Amburu on Nov 22, 2024 9:52:25 GMT
1.That's way too much evidence for you two not to be right 2.It always feels so special every time someone decodes new Cole dialogue 🙏 GG I'm caught up with the past month of posts \o/ and seized by the urge to make fanart again, epilogue content, feeling great 🤸♀️ is posting on tumblr with #spoilers tag still the way to go nowadays ? I have fossilised 6ish years ago Solavellan hurt so good, I'm so happy, can't believe we've actually reached the conclusion for real and what a conclusion !!!! Silly thought : this morning i was cackling as I thought it took an entire gang of women ((and possibly nonbinary protags)) working together to finally get to [Fix Him]™ 🤣 and THAT ENDING IS CANON pretty much since solavellan is the default world state, I'm having way too much fun mentally shitposting to myself and it's only been 10 hours
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Post by Amburu on Nov 23, 2024 11:05:55 GMT
Searching for something else I just saw this comment under Jackdaw's ending breakdown video... @n7allfather 10 days ago
If you think about it the game is still named after him because he ends up as the literal veilguard Im liking the change a lot more now... But also I'm dying. As I was collecting dozens of reference pictures yesterday I noticed that at least one freed slave we see in the memories is wearing the exact same white gown as Mythal's fragment. Is it a recycled asset or is it hinting at anything ? I'm pretty sure I missed a lot of stuff in these memories, it was the most difficult part to keep track of in my VOD journey, I apologize if that was one of them Collecting them I stumbled upon scans from the artbook... It seems the writers spent a long time (there's at least 2 different artworks of it) considering another ending where Solas would agree to guard the Veil but as he leaves, he touches his forehead to tranquilize himself... On one hand at least with this alternative he wouldnt have to endure his eternal loneliness any longer so I can support it as a merciful ending option But on the other that would mark the definitive end of the spirit he once used to be in the very beginning and- ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, GAAHHHHH THE PAIN
Im dying, But while I perish I wanted to ask confirmation on some geography : About the black city The evanuris were trapped in the Black City, with the souls of the Titans radiating raging blight. The evanuris were also trapped in the dead, greyscaled regret land. We even went and almost didnt make it back. These two didn't strike me as the same place ? Was it the same place ? Is the prison a subrealm of sorts inside the city ? Were we given more details ? About the Void Just to be sure, we've never really given that much detail about that place, right ? It exists, Solas trapped more elven problems in there, Andruil went and got in trouble and we consistently find abilities and items named void-something as we go through the games, but it's all been left to vague vibes so far, right ? I didn't find much else in the wiki or searching keywords on the bsn. Yesterday I teared up several times again as I went running errands. Greatly enjoying my life choices (not sarcasm)
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2024 5:01:45 GMT
Searching for something else I just saw this comment under Jackdaw's ending breakdown video... @n7allfather 10 days ago
If you think about it the game is still named after him because he ends up as the literal veilguard Yea, that's why I wasn't really that bothered with the name change - it's quite ironic (and I like irony) and still related to Solas, as Veil is his creation and he struggles with its creation, only in the end to become (willing or unwilling) the one who sustains it.
You can actually obtain the transmog version - in blue, reddish and white color, from "Regrets of the Dread Wolf' quest. It's called "Watcher's robe" (description: "The cloth of this robe is thick as a blanket, yet soft as silk, and makes far less noise than it should"). On one hand Mythal's fragment has been stuck watching the events of the world unfold; hence she's 'the Watcher' - on the other I'm not sure there's more to the robe than being ancient elvhen? With that said, it wouldn't be wholly unusual for some higher servant of Mythal to wear similar clothes as her god, and perhaps the servant was enslaved by other Evanuris once Mythal was killed. I'm pretty sure they went through a zillion versions over the last 10 years of development, but I'm quite glad that didn't go with that one. Tranquility, as we know, may be reverted, but how would even do that on an entity like Solas, stuck in the Fade and effectively invisible to spirits? Not sure THAT Tranquility can be undone, or whether it even makes a narrative sense.
And the ending we get is one that I find interesting from the standpoint of "he may actually show up in some form later on", because regardless of how he ends up there, he ends up bound to the Veil and in the regret prison, and this sort of narrative 'evening out' - as far as worldstates go - is usually applied to characters they may want to retain and use in some way (but whether they do, remains to be seen). No, it's not the same place - we don't really know where the prison is Fade-geography-wise, and whether it even matters to ponder where exactly it is, but regret prison is a new prison that Solas created to hold the two remaining gods, as their old prison (the Black City) was failing to contain them. This is why there was always a faint sense of urgency in Solas' actions one could sense in Inquisition and Trespasser - the gods were about to escape, which is why he built a new place and the ritual was largely about transferring them. He still clearly had plans to remove the Veil, but since they involved the transfer of gods whose life-force is directly tied to the Veil, those plans must've been more complex.
With that said - while the prison was failing to contain the gods, it's still containing most of the blight, and so I assume that the Black City itself will play a role sometime in the future, if more Dragon Age happens.
I'm not sure if people who use the word Void mean the same things, but the Void appears to definitely be connected to the blight somehow (in what way, hard to tell), since entering it made Andruil discover the blight (or at least that's the assumption Bellara and Davrin make). I'm unsure Solas has created the Void itself - we know he led to the creation of the blight, but the Void may as well be something older. We know now for sure there are certainly older things than the blight, elves and likely the spirits that became elves.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2024 5:18:08 GMT
Yeah, I assume the food thing won't be too big an issue.
As for the immortality thing, I think we've been given an answer.
We know for a fact now that the Evanuris (and Solas himself) are just spirits housed in lyrium bodies. And we know spirits are eternal, provided they're not somehow destroyed.
But I also think ALL elves are like that. Even modern ones. Consider what Cole said about elven inky: "Pulled (spirit pulled from the fade), blood that is not blood (because lyrium), a tiny trace of time. Lips struggling to shape language your parents lived."
Kieran also says things: "Your blood is very old (because lyrium). I saw it right away."
And: "I just don't know why your people want to look like that." Presumably, the Evanuris chose the general elf shape, and everyone else just followed suit, I guess?
Then there's the Claws of Dumat text: Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade (because they're spirits), and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood (lyrium again).
This would also explain why any time an elf has a child with any other race, that child is ALWAYS entirely the other race. Because elf bodies aren't really...real, for lack of a better word. They're just highly detailed, fully functioning lyrium constructs.
That's what I'm getting from all this. Interesting to think about, anyway. The only thing I can't figure is how exactly the fade took away immortality. The mechanics of it elude me.
I keep thinking about this theory. I even checked, and it lines up with what both Gaider and Weekes have said about elven genetics. Or lack thereof. Gaider said that the reason there are no 'half-elves' is because of a, "supernatural origin relating to the nature of elves themselves." sourceAnd Weekes said that "elf-blooded" is purely a legal distinction, and there are no genetics in play. Children of elves and humans (or other) do not inherit any genetics from the elven parent. Am I way off on this? I feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist with this, but at the same time, it feels like it fits. I don't know. Yep, I'd say it's a plausible theory, given what we know about the origins of elves - although I'd say that things aren't that simple, because, well... how did others came to be? Elves NOW don't just spring out of the earth, fully formed - they get born like everyone else or bore other races, so what's the difference? Maybe because they're closer to the Fade or something, or their spirits remain more to how they were originally? The thing is that... well, everyone seems to have a body 'made out of earth' and a spirit within that body? All races can be turned into stone with what appears to be Titan-related magic. Even darkspawn (as demonstrated by Harding). Yet the Titans appear to have been absolutely bewildered by spirits just taking lyrium and growing bodies, which resulted with a terrible war, so is there some sort of natural process or some sort of unknown celestial law that made taking earth and forming a body a transgression? Sheesh, there's still so much we don't know. Like, then there's Cole who just... manifested as a human. He didn't possess Cole's body, he just manifested into being a Cole lookalike. And, of course, there's "the lyrium sang thought into being" Leliana in DAI.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2024 5:22:54 GMT
Also, given all this - unless we find out other elves from 1st (Mythal, Elgar'nan, etc) or 2nd (Solas, Ghilan'nain) generation survived, could Solas be the only ancient elf who possesses the original lyrium body?
And was the fact of possessing one - which apparently makes the elves retain the power they wielded as spirits - meant that it was a factor in his conviction that he's the only one who could end the crisis that began all those millennia ago?
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 24, 2024 6:00:41 GMT
everyone seems to have a body 'made out of earth' and a spirit within that body? I think elves are different from the other races, because I'm pretty sure there are such things as half human/half dwarf, at the very least. I can't recall if there are any half Qunari running around, but I think elves are unique in not passing on genetics. And according to Emmrich, A spirit and a soul are not the same thing. Every living being has a soul. Presumably, only elves have spirits. Or are spirits, I guess? Ugh. Whether spirits have a soul is not specified. This is all... very confusing.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 24, 2024 6:13:33 GMT
everyone seems to have a body 'made out of earth' and a spirit within that body? I think elves are different from the other races, because I'm pretty sure there are such things as half human/half dwarf, at the very least. I can't recall if there are any half Qunari running around, but I think elves are unique in not passing on genetics. And according to Emmrich, A spirit and a soul are not the same thing.
Every living being has a soul. Presumably, only elves have spirits.
Whether spirits have a soul is not specified. This is all... very confusing. People having spirits is mentioned several times across DA. We do see spirits of dwarves in DAO (unless they changed something), and when Solas takes Inquisitor on the balcony (ANY Inquisitor, not just Lavellan) he asks whether the Anchor changed them in any way - their mind, morals or their spirit? (he makes a curious pause before asking about the spirit, but he does so for the elf Inquisitor as well). IMO it may be the 'grey elephant' thing - all souls may be spirits, but not all spirits are souls. I think the general esoteric belief/fantasy trope is that souls are more complex than spirits.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Nov 24, 2024 6:21:41 GMT
I think elves are different from the other races, because I'm pretty sure there are such things as half human/half dwarf, at the very least. I can't recall if there are any half Qunari running around, but I think elves are unique in not passing on genetics. And according to Emmrich, A spirit and a soul are not the same thing.
Every living being has a soul. Presumably, only elves have spirits.
Whether spirits have a soul is not specified. This is all... very confusing. People having spirits is mentioned several times across DA. We do see spirits of dwarves in DAO (unless they changed something), and when Solas takes Inquisitor on the balcony (ANY Inquisitor, not just Lavellan) he asks whether the Anchor changed them in any way - their mind, morals or their spirit? (he makes a curious pause before asking about the spirit, but he does so for the elf Inquisitor as well). IMO it may be the 'grey elephant' thing - all souls may be spirits, but not all spirits are souls. I think the general esoteric belief/fantasy trope is that souls are more complex than spirits. Yeah, the waters are definitely muddy on this whole thing. Perhaps the term is sometimes used interchangeably? I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer out of the devs on this, either.
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