Elessara
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Post by Elessara on Oct 14, 2022 22:04:03 GMT
This was my initial choice the first time I played (once I had worked out how to get the requisite number of halla statues). Having read Masked Empire, I felt they deserved one another and at least it meant the truce being maintained until we had dealt with Corypheus. I don't know how much longer it would have lasted after the Inquisition was no longer in control of things. It also meant I had achieved our initial objective, which I seem to recall was to prevent Celene's assassination, not get embroiled in regime change. Whilst I liked the option of putting Briala on the throne, it sounded like a barking mad idea to me, and I couldn't see it lasting. So long as Orlais has the Game, it is always going to be a terrible place to live, no matter where you are on the social scale. The other advantage of keeping those three at each other's throats is that it takes the heat off Ferelden, allowing that nation more time to recover from the Blight and the Mage/Templar war on their doorstep. However, subsequent runs, when I felt I wanted to explore other options and have a little fun, I went with letting Celene die, because my male Lavellan thought it poetic justice for what she had done to the elves of Halamshiral, and then having Gaspard the puppet of Briala just put the icing on the cake. What did it matter if it didn't last so long as we capitalised on the situation whilst it did? I think Solas quietly approved as well, even if he didn't register straight away that helping "our people" meant the elves. That was so funny in hindsight; he let his mask slip for a minute. I was just disappointed I couldn't press him further on that one: "Huh, who did you think I meant?" I think you do get to ask "Who are your people then?", though he naturally doesn't answer. As for an elven Inquisitor wanting to avenge Halamshiral, it might seem difficult to justify in-game because the purge of the alienage is treated as a secret. But it wasn't actually kept a secret in The Masked Empire, so I guess we're allowed to ignore this. I don't remember if the purge of the Alienage actually gets brought up in Inquisition, although I think if anyone would talk about it, it would be Briala. Edit to add: Personally, I did not read The Masked Empire and I was unaware of the events that occurred. So I think it probably wasn't mentioned? I knew I found out that Celene and Briala had been lovers and they seemed still care about each other (even with Briala knowing what Celene had done) so I reconciled them. It seemed better to have them basically rule together and have Briala improve the lives of the elves in Orlais with a willing political ally than have her in the precarious position of puppet master of someone who hated her. Also, Gaspard was entirely too militaristic and expansionist for my taste. He likely would have caused another war with Ferelden when - after the Blight, the Mage/Templar war, the Breach - this area really did not need another conflict.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 14, 2022 23:15:56 GMT
I think you do get to ask "Who are your people then?", though he naturally doesn't answer. As for an elven Inquisitor wanting to avenge Halamshiral, it might seem difficult to justify in-game because the purge of the alienage is treated as a secret. But it wasn't actually kept a secret in The Masked Empire, so I guess we're allowed to ignore this. I don't remember if the purge of the Alienage actually gets brought up in Inquisition, although I think if anyone would talk about it, it would be Briala. Edit to add: Personally, I did not read The Masked Empire and I was unaware of the events that occurred. So I think it probably wasn't mentioned? I knew I found out that Celene and Briala had been lovers and they seemed still care about each other (even with Briala knowing what Celene had done) so I reconciled them. It seemed better to have them basically rule together and have Briala improve the lives of the elves in Orlais with a willing political ally than have her in the precarious position of puppet master of someone who hated her. Also, Gaspard was entirely too militaristic and expansionist for my taste. He likely would have caused another war with Ferelden when - after the Blight, the Mage/Templar war, the Breach - this area really did not need another conflict. It is mentioned near the end of the Winter Palace quest, when an elven spy says that Briala "slept with the empress who burned the alienage". Of course, this completely ignores the fact that Briala broke up with Celene exactly because of this. She was not complicit. It is a quest that is really designed to manipulate the player.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Elessara on Oct 14, 2022 23:31:17 GMT
I don't remember if the purge of the Alienage actually gets brought up in Inquisition, although I think if anyone would talk about it, it would be Briala. Edit to add: Personally, I did not read The Masked Empire and I was unaware of the events that occurred. So I think it probably wasn't mentioned? I knew I found out that Celene and Briala had been lovers and they seemed still care about each other (even with Briala knowing what Celene had done) so I reconciled them. It seemed better to have them basically rule together and have Briala improve the lives of the elves in Orlais with a willing political ally than have her in the precarious position of puppet master of someone who hated her. Also, Gaspard was entirely too militaristic and expansionist for my taste. He likely would have caused another war with Ferelden when - after the Blight, the Mage/Templar war, the Breach - this area really did not need another conflict. It is mentioned near the end of the Winter Palace quest, when an elven spy says that Briala "slept with the empress who burned the alienage". Of course, this completely ignores the fact that Briala broke up with Celene exactly because of this. She was not complicit. It is a quest that is really designed to manipulate the player. Especially considering if it's an elven spy, then presumably that person is one of Briala's spies. Although, having a one liner from random_npc_14912 is actually really irritating. It provides no context or any meaningful information. I'm surprised Leliana didn't dig up that information and give it to the inquisitor during the course of the party.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Oct 15, 2022 4:48:43 GMT
It is mentioned near the end of the Winter Palace quest, when an elven spy says that Briala "slept with the empress who burned the alienage". Of course, this completely ignores the fact that Briala broke up with Celene exactly because of this. She was not complicit. It is a quest that is really designed to manipulate the player. Especially considering if it's an elven spy, then presumably that person is one of Briala's spies. Although, having a one liner from random_npc_14912 is actually really irritating. It provides no context or any meaningful information. I'm surprised Leliana didn't dig up that information and give it to the inquisitor during the course of the party. The spy could have been a spy of the Qun since it's known they use converted people as spies, or it could have been one of Solas' spies. He did have them scattered about from at least the events of The Masked Empire (since Felassan was one) and so that elven spy could have been one of his, not Briala's. I think everyone would have assumed it's Briala's spy until they played Trespasser and learned that Solas apparently has spies everywhere, too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2022 11:01:04 GMT
As for an elven Inquisitor wanting to avenge Halamshiral, it might seem difficult to justify in-game because the purge of the alienage is treated as a secret. But it wasn't actually kept a secret in The Masked Empire, so I guess we're allowed to ignore this. I was there as a spy on the humans, so I assumed he had done a bit of sleuthing independent on what information Leliana decided to give me. I also do not see how the purging of the alienage could have been kept as a secret considering she also burnt down that part of the city, so everyone would have known what had happened. You can kill a few elves on the QT but flames roaring to the sky is a bit harder to avoid noticing. So even if those in authority were happy to turn a blind eye and pretend it never happened, I'm pretty sure it would have got out on the grape vine among the lesser folks. (As proved to be the case with that elven servant) I don't remember if the purge of the Alienage actually gets brought up in Inquisition, although I think if anyone would talk about it, it would be Briala. I acknowledge that they didn't give enough information in game but having read the book, I decided this was one occasion when I was justified in using it to inform my decision. They did skirt over a lot of the issues that came up in the novel in the actual game. However, I was aware from previous games how little respect or political power elves are allowed to have in the Chantry controlled lands, which is why I thought Leliana's suggestion for Briala was crazy even without having read the book. I also knew about the reputation of the Chevaliers from DAO, which was a bad mark against Gaspard and the nobility generally. So, as I explained, in my previous post, my decision on the first run was more based on why we were there (to stop the assassination) and what would help Ferelden, by keeping Orlais embroiled in internal politics. It was only the second run that I really allowed my knowledge from Masked Empire to come into play. Actually, first run I also missed the room with the locket, so did not have the option of reconciling Celene and Briala. In view of what I knew from the novel, it never occurred to me that would be an option. Then I saw a discussion on the boards about this and realised I must have missed something vital. I did reconcile them on my third run but that had the unwanted result of increasing the possibility of Vivienne being made Divine. I hadn't realised that was a possibility either until the end game feast when she was introduced to me as such. I tried going back and actually voting for Cassandra but that still didn't do any good. My choices had result in Divine Vivienne and checking against the Wiki, it seemed that keeping Celene in power had probably been the clincher for that one.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2022 11:23:35 GMT
It is mentioned near the end of the Winter Palace quest, when an elven spy says that Briala "slept with the empress who burned the alienage". Of course, this completely ignores the fact that Briala broke up with Celene exactly because of this. She was not complicit. It is a quest that is really designed to manipulate the player. Actually, whilst it is hard to know how the servant would know this, Briala was willing to forgive Celene and resume their relationship, even after she had burnt the alienage. Briala managed to twist it around in her mind that the fault was really Gaspard's, because he had forced Celene's hand, which whilst true in one sense, doesn't absolve Celene as she could have chosen to manage it differently. Gaspard witnessed the fact that initially Briala seemed to have forgiven Celene, so I wouldn't have put it past him to have circulated the rumour that Briala slept with Celene after the burning, in order to undermine her status with the elves, because it was near enough to the truth that it would have been difficult for Briala to deny it. So, it wasn't player manipulation so much as trying to convey complexities of their relationship without going into as much detail as the novel did.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 15, 2022 11:40:30 GMT
It is mentioned near the end of the Winter Palace quest, when an elven spy says that Briala "slept with the empress who burned the alienage". Of course, this completely ignores the fact that Briala broke up with Celene exactly because of this. She was not complicit. It is a quest that is really designed to manipulate the player. Actually, whilst it is hard to know how the servant would know this, Briala was willing to forgive Celene and resume their relationship, even after she had burnt the alienage. Briala managed to twist it around in her mind that the fault was really Gaspard's, because he had forced Celene's hand, which whilst true in one sense, doesn't absolve Celene as she could have chosen to manage it differently. Gaspard witnessed the fact that initially Briala seemed to have forgiven Celene, so I wouldn't have put it past him to have circulated the rumour that Briala slept with Celene after the burning, in order to undermine her status with the elves, because it was near enough to the truth that it would have been difficult for Briala to deny it. So, it wasn't player manipulation so much as trying to convey complexities of their relationship without going into as much detail as the novel did. Such 'forgiveness' didn't happen immediately, as you may remember the campfire conversation where Celene tried to justify her actions and Briala rejected every argument. So the notion that Briala was unphased, as the elven spy tried to convince us to be the case, is clearly false and does mislead players.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Elessara on Oct 15, 2022 13:44:57 GMT
Especially considering if it's an elven spy, then presumably that person is one of Briala's spies. Although, having a one liner from random_npc_14912 is actually really irritating. It provides no context or any meaningful information. I'm surprised Leliana didn't dig up that information and give it to the inquisitor during the course of the party. The spy could have been a spy of the Qun since it's known they use converted people as spies, or it could have been one of Solas' spies. He did have them scattered about from at least the events of The Masked Empire (since Felassan was one) and so that elven spy could have been one of his, not Briala's. I think everyone would have assumed it's Briala's spy until they played Trespasser and learned that Solas apparently has spies everywhere, too. I did think of that but at the time, and without knowing what we know now, it's natural to assume that it's one of Briala's people. Which isn't to say that her people couldn't or wouldn't hold some sort of resentment against her but I would think it weird they voice that to a practical stranger, Inquisitor or not.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 1881
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Post by Elessara on Oct 15, 2022 13:55:19 GMT
<snip> I don't remember if the purge of the Alienage actually gets brought up in Inquisition, although I think if anyone would talk about it, it would be Briala. I acknowledge that they didn't give enough information in game but having read the book, I decided this was one occasion when I was justified in using it to inform my decision. They did skirt over a lot of the issues that came up in the novel in the actual game. However, I was aware from previous games how little respect or political power elves are allowed to have in the Chantry controlled lands, which is why I thought Leliana's suggestion for Briala was crazy even without having read the book. I also knew about the reputation of the Chevaliers from DAO, which was a bad mark against Gaspard and the nobility generally. So, as I explained, in my previous post, my decision on the first run was more based on why we were there (to stop the assassination) and what would help Ferelden, by keeping Orlais embroiled in internal politics. It was only the second run that I really allowed my knowledge from Masked Empire to come into play. Actually, first run I also missed the room with the locket, so did not have the option of reconciling Celene and Briala. In view of what I knew from the novel, it never occurred to me that would be an option. Then I saw a discussion on the boards about this and realised I must have missed something vital. I did reconcile them on my third run but that had the unwanted result of increasing the possibility of Vivienne being made Divine. I hadn't realised that was a possibility either until the end game feast when she was introduced to me as such. I tried going back and actually voting for Cassandra but that still didn't do any good. My choices had result in Divine Vivienne and checking against the Wiki, it seemed that keeping Celene in power had probably been the clincher for that one. I just didn't remember when I learned the information about Celene and the Alienage. I'm also pretty sure I didn't pay any attention to a one liner from a random NPC. I know *now* but I couldn't remember if that's when I heard it or if it was later because I still haven't read the book hah. I'm lazy. I know I found out after I played Inquisition at least once and at that point I was also surprised that a reconciliation was possible. Interesting about Vivienne though. I had no idea that particular decision affected Vivienne's chances of becoming Divine. I know I ended up with unhardened Leliana.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 15, 2022 16:33:57 GMT
@gervaise I have a lore question for you, if you don't mind.
In the real world, using your political influence to get a favor for yourself or your friends is a serious crime. The same goes for blackmail and other dirty tactics to achieve political goals.
We know that murder still is a crime in Thedas, but is corruption criminalized in this universe?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2022 18:30:40 GMT
We know that murder still is a crime in Thedas, but is corruption criminalized in this universe? I think that depends on which country you are in. After all, the Chevaliers can get away with murder with impunity and that doesn't just apply to them using elves for target practice. Apparently, murder is also okay in Orlais provided you do it as part of the Game and don't get caught red handed (literally) even though everyone knows you are responsible. So, it would be hard to say what counts as corruption in Orlais and likely even more difficult to prove it, since anything seems okay under the Game, so long as you don't get caught, and if you do, then social disgrace seems the main consequence. In Orzammar it is considered a crime to fix the Provings, so I assume that might count as corruption. As for other bribes and kickbacks, as with Orlais I suppose it depends on who is involved and the political clout of the accuser. Antiva also has a lot of state authorised murder, so what would count as corruption there? Anything that wasn't approved by the Crows I assume. The only other specific instance I can think of off-hand is Tevinter. Dorian mentions something about how he knows of people who ended up being accused of blood magic because they crossed the wrong Magister, but they were not really guilty of the crime. That sounds like corruption within the judicial system to me. I seem to recall that the Lucerni were founded by him and Maevaris specifically to fight against corruption in the Magisterium. Whilst that might mean simply magical corruption, I think it was political corruption as well. Essentially, some powerful individuals are so busy advancing their own agendas through bribery, blackmail and intimidation, they are undermining the system and weakening the Imperium as a whole. The epilogue to Trespasser suggested it was the political in-fighting that led to the Qunari being able to overrun the eastern seaboard so easily. The short story about Calpernia also said something about one of the Magisters featured, that he was responsible for keeping the Juggernaut golems in good order, having officially been appointed to that role and being paid to do so, yet apparently was not fulfilling his remit, which sounds like a case of corruption to me, with him likely syphoning off the money elsewhere. So, it may be that we will encounter examples of corruption within the Imperium next game and have either main plot or sub-plot quests to deal with it, because the official channels are so corrupt that nothing is done about it.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 15, 2022 18:43:17 GMT
@gervaise I have a lore question for you, if you don't mind. In the real world, using your political influence to get a favor for yourself or your friends is a serious crime. The same goes for blackmail and other dirty tactics to achieve political goals. We know that murder still is a crime in Thedas, but is corruption criminalized in this universe?The unofficial rule seems to be "don't get caught" or alternatively "don't piss of the people in power". Because while 'corruption' is officially illegalized, that does not stop people from committing or even glamorizing those corrupt things. Just look at Vivienne. Officially, mages are not supposed to have political power or hold political office outside of being a ruler's singular magical advisor (which is currently held by Morrigan). But Vivienne ignores all of these legal restrictions on the technicality that she is 'just' Bastien's mistress despite clearly being a major political force in her own right. And let's not forget she can become Divine as well.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 16, 2022 0:00:05 GMT
We know that murder still is a crime in Thedas, but is corruption criminalized in this universe? I think that depends on which country you are in. After all, the Chevaliers can get away with murder with impunity and that doesn't just apply to them using elves for target practice. Apparently, murder is also okay in Orlais provided you do it as part of the Game and don't get caught red handed (literally) even though everyone knows you are responsible. So, it would be hard to say what counts as corruption in Orlais and likely even more difficult to prove it, since anything seems okay under the Game, so long as you don't get caught, and if you do, then social disgrace seems the main consequence. In Orzammar it is considered a crime to fix the Provings, so I assume that might count as corruption. As for other bribes and kickbacks, as with Orlais I suppose it depends on who is involved and the political clout of the accuser. Antiva also has a lot of state authorised murder, so what would count as corruption there? Anything that wasn't approved by the Crows I assume. The only other specific instance I can think of off-hand is Tevinter. Dorian mentions something about how he knows of people who ended up being accused of blood magic because they crossed the wrong Magister, but they were not really guilty of the crime. That sounds like corruption within the judicial system to me. I seem to recall that the Lucerni were founded by him and Maevaris specifically to fight against corruption in the Magisterium. Whilst that might mean simply magical corruption, I think it was political corruption as well. Essentially, some powerful individuals are so busy advancing their own agendas through bribery, blackmail and intimidation, they are undermining the system and weakening the Imperium as a whole. The epilogue to Trespasser suggested it was the political in-fighting that led to the Qunari being able to overrun the eastern seaboard so easily. The short story about Calpernia also said something about one of the Magisters featured, that he was responsible for keeping the Juggernaut golems in good order, having officially been appointed to that role and being paid to do so, yet apparently was not fulfilling his remit, which sounds like a case of corruption to me, with him likely syphoning off the money elsewhere. So, it may be that we will encounter examples of corruption within the Imperium next game and have either main plot or sub-plot quests to deal with it, because the official channels are so corrupt that nothing is done about it. So in short, the problem never is the method itself, but the interests you are jeopardizing. You don't get arrested for the deed in and of itself, regardless of where you are. Oddly enough, Blackwall calls you corrupt for using your influence to bail him out, even though none of the other characters really care. They might object to the idea that he deserves mercy, but they won't feel that intruding upon the Orlesian legal system is wrong.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 16, 2022 0:01:00 GMT
@gervaise I have a lore question for you, if you don't mind. In the real world, using your political influence to get a favor for yourself or your friends is a serious crime. The same goes for blackmail and other dirty tactics to achieve political goals. We know that murder still is a crime in Thedas, but is corruption criminalized in this universe?The unofficial rule seems to be "don't get caught" or alternatively "don't piss of the people in power". Because while 'corruption' is officially illegalized, that does not stop people from committing or even glamorizing those corrupt things. Just look at Vivienne. Officially, mages are not supposed to have political power or hold political office outside of being a ruler's singular magical advisor (which is currently held by Morrigan). But Vivienne ignores all of these legal restrictions on the technicality that she is 'just' Bastien's mistress despite clearly being a major political force in her own right. And let's not forget she can become Divine as well. In a way, what is tolerated becomes law.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 8:22:51 GMT
Oddly enough, Blackwall calls you corrupt for using your influence to bail him out, even though none of the other characters really care. What Blackwall says is absolutely true and it does point to the Inquisitor using their power corruptly. The reason none of our advisers seem to have a problem with it is likely because it is so normal for people in power to do this, particularly in Orlais. So in short, the problem never is the method itself, but the interests you are jeopardizing. You don't get arrested for the deed in and of itself, regardless of where you are. Exactly, almost every political system in Thedas suffers from this problem. I've pointed out in the past about the two-tier system within the Circles, with one rule for the offspring of nobility and another for the commoners. Noble families can bribe the Chantry to ensure that their mage children receive preferential treatment even to the extent of having carefully selected Templars to oversee them. They are also allowed to maintain contact with their families and even leave the Circle to attend social events. I doubt any of those who suffer abuse within the Circles came from noble families. Even outside the Circle it can affect how people are treated when they are suspected of protecting or having connection with mages. Gaspard du Pui was able to get Meredith to reprimand Emerick for harassing him, when it was his job to try and root out apostate mages. That was clearly a misuse of Gaspard du Pui's social status to prevent a Templar from doing his duty and the commanding officer happy to go along with it. So, in short, if you are a noble then corruption is to be expected and not punished severely, but I wouldn't mind betting if you are a commoner suspected of corruption, those in power come down heavily upon you as a warning against others for their temerity in meddling in the affairs of their betters.
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Post by dayze on Oct 16, 2022 19:52:37 GMT
The unofficial rule seems to be "don't get caught" or alternatively "don't piss of the people in power". Because while 'corruption' is officially illegalized, that does not stop people from committing or even glamorizing those corrupt things. Just look at Vivienne. Officially, mages are not supposed to have political power or hold political office outside of being a ruler's singular magical advisor (which is currently held by Morrigan). But Vivienne ignores all of these legal restrictions on the technicality that she is 'just' Bastien's mistress despite clearly being a major political force in her own right. And let's not forget she can become Divine as well. In a way, what is tolerated becomes law. What do they call that in court "Setting Precedent"?
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2022 0:12:19 GMT
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Post by dayze on Oct 17, 2022 14:17:53 GMT
Looking at the picture I always thought of the duo-wolves on the side of the mirrors as being a Fen-Harel reference.
But it could just as easily be those twin gods, that two headed dragon bit or like that image of the two elven women by the black city, one with light hair and blood running from her hand and the other dark hair that ends up fish tail like with brine running from her hand.
Maybe back in the day pre-dragon all Spirits were dropped into wolves ala what happened to witherfang?
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2022 23:37:41 GMT
How ignorant would you guys say the average Dalish elf is regarding the world outside the clan?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 18, 2022 1:28:17 GMT
How ignorant would you guys say the average Dalish elf is regarding the world outside the clan? Depends on the clan. Some are strict isolationists while others interact with Alienages and even human settlements.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 18, 2022 2:37:29 GMT
How ignorant would you guys say the average Dalish elf is regarding the world outside the clan? Depends on the clan. Some are strict isolationists while others interact with Alienages and even human settlements. That doesn't really say much, though.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 18, 2022 4:22:58 GMT
Depends on the clan. Some are strict isolationists while others interact with Alienages and even human settlements. That doesn't really say much, though. Well there's not much to say really. Hanako hit the nail on the head, since the Dalish are a loose collective of disparate and separate clans from various shifting geological locations. The "average" non-religious experience from them can vary wildly depending on the respective culture and attitude of their specific clan and upbringing. And even their specific religious customs likely vary, in truth, despite the commonalities they do undoubtedly share with other clans. Some may take steps to broaden their knowledge of the world and some won't. Some will trade and communicate with outsiders, while others will stay far away. And some are like Lavellan who are apparently comfortable enough to send a spy who had access to human armor. And others still are ignorant of society entirely but might as well be geniuses sheerly on account of how many hostile environments they know how to survive in.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 18, 2022 12:58:17 GMT
That doesn't really say much, though. Well there's not much to say really. Hanako hit the nail on the head, since the Dalish are a loose collective of disparate and separate clans from various shifting geological locations. The "average" non-religious experience from them can vary wildly depending on the respective culture and attitude of their specific clan and upbringing. And even their specific religious customs likely vary, in truth, despite the commonalities they do undoubtedly share with other clans. Some may take steps to broaden their knowledge of the world and some won't. Some will trade and communicate with outsiders, while others will stay far away. And some are like Lavellan who are apparently comfortable enough to send a spy who had access to human armor. And others still are ignorant of society entirely but might as well be geniuses sheerly on account of how many hostile environments they know how to survive in. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. I'm talking about knowledge of how human society operates, which involves how the everyday services are organized, what are the hierarchies in place, what keeps a country sustained and how they interact with their neighbours, the basics of politics (alliances, rivalries, ascending and falling from power), etc. Comfort and friendliness don't necessarily keep you informed. Nor does trade, unless you spend a little time in the village before going back to camp.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 18, 2022 18:17:37 GMT
Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. I'm talking about knowledge of how human society operates, which involves how the everyday services are organized, what are the hierarchies in place, what keeps a country sustained and how they interact with their neighbours, the basics of politics (alliances, rivalries, ascending and falling from power), etc. Well Clan Lavellan knew enough of the politics of the Freemarches City States that they were able to play one off against the other by keeping to the border country between each. This might well be something they could have acquired knowledge of through trade with human settlements. How did they know about the Conclave? It is clear they wouldn't have been sent an invitation. Merchants travelling through the region would be a good way of picking up information from outside the area, provided they don't act hostile towards them. There was also something in WoT2, concerning puppets shows in Thedas, which said how the hostile Dalish in the swamps of Antiva had used "forest marionettes" to scare curious humans away from the area of their camps, hanging them up to jerk and swoop in the breeze, with bottles attached across which the wind makes scary moaning sounds. Intruders think they must be a sign of sylvans or unquiet spirits rather than the Dalish. This actually seem quite clever on the part of the Dalish and does suggest that they at least know about the majority of humans' fear of magic. After all, they might simply assume that Templars are enforcing Chantry edicts rather than a general cultural thing, unless they discussed this with humans and, let's face it, Templars aren't likely to be deterred by the marionettes. On the whole though, the majority of Dalish probably aren't that bothered with human politics unless it specifically impacts on them and prefer to avoid contact, if at all possible, with the ruling elites. The reason the clans split up in the first place was to make them less of a target for human aggressors. This is where I thought Briala was unreasonable in expecting Clan Virnhe (probably got that name wrong) to do anything about the elves of Halamshiral, even if they had known about it in advance. The attitude of Thelhen towards Celene's offer also seemed in keeping with a group that generally has had to avoid the predations of Chevaliers hunting them for sport. What benefit would it have to the Dalish to assist, when she admits she is currently on the run from the rebel leader? Better to hand her over or just keep out of the whole affair. The Dalish regard humans as untrustworthy, so the less they know about them the better. They need to know just enough to stay out of harm's way.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 19, 2022 0:43:23 GMT
Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. I'm talking about knowledge of how human society operates, which involves how the everyday services are organized, what are the hierarchies in place, what keeps a country sustained and how they interact with their neighbours, the basics of politics (alliances, rivalries, ascending and falling from power), etc. Well Clan Lavellan knew enough of the politics of the Freemarches City States that they were able to play one off against the other by keeping to the border country between each. This might well be something they could have acquired knowledge of through trade with human settlements. How did they know about the Conclave? It is clear they wouldn't have been sent an invitation. Merchants travelling through the region would be a good way of picking up information from outside the area, provided they don't act hostile towards them. [...] On the whole though, the majority of Dalish probably aren't that bothered with human politics unless it specifically impacts on them and prefer to avoid contact, if at all possible, with the ruling elites. The reason the clans split up in the first place was to make them less of a target for human aggressors. [...] The Dalish regard humans as untrustworthy, so the less they know about them the better. They need to know just enough to stay out of harm's way. And just to add on to this, we do have to acknowledge how Dalish banditry is a thing, and the ones in Nevarra that attacked Genetivi seem to be fairly proficient at it since they were able to kill the caravan guards with ease. And rather notably, they took not only supplies but any other valuables the merchants had on them. So I'm willing to bet that such clans have a good idea of the basics of commerce insofar that they can reliably stake out trade routes and if they are not taking the valuables for themselves, then they know where to pawn the stuff off to get something else in return. But other than that I am willing to bet most not-so-isolated clans know the basics of the neighboring nations they are wandering in, and depending on how often they are traveling, can arguably have a better understanding of the shifting alliances of the regional lords than stationary humans do sheerly on account that they have to be weary of them and track troop movements. Even if they are understandably ignorant of the finer details of who is allied to whom and who offended whom to cause a rise in hostilities. Otherwise, yeah. The know the basics of the nation and otherwise only pay attention to what is immediately relevant for them or otherwise has become a known hazard of the nation (like Orlesian hunting parties). Even if there are rare exceptions out there where a city elf approaches them for help and will likely become more aware of the political situation that caused the elf to seek them out in the first place.
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