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N3
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Post by Elessara on Jun 27, 2024 6:46:34 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 27, 2024 7:38:23 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. No we didn't and I'll be furious if they force that assumption on us. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse. They are not exactly the same. In DAI our PC didn't know the ritual was taking place. They just walked in on it by accident and our acquisition of the magic ball was equally by chance. They didn't have any agency in what happened. If the security at the Conclave was what it should have been, neither Corypheus nor the PC should have got anywhere near the Divine or even gained admittance to the Conclave itself in the case of the Dalish or Carta PC. In DAV Rook had already been told what Solas planned to do. The mission was to stop him destroying the world. Varric's brilliant plan was to talk him out of it. He failed. No one else had an alternative to offer, so Rook took the initiative and did what seemed logical to stop the ritual. I believe Neve may have made slight objection but not enough to dissuade Rook in the heat of the moment when, from everything they had been told, if Solas completed the ritual the world would end. So, they took decisive action that did stop the ritual. It is not their fault if Solas was doing something completely different at the time and so there were unforeseen consequences. Had Solas told Varric what he was doing, Rook might have acted differently as they appeared to be able to hear what was being said. I swear if everyone dumps on Rook as a result of this and they are not allowed to defend themselves in the way I have outlined above, I shall be really angry. Rook acted in the only way they could in the circumstances and based off the information they had been given. As Rook I am perfectly prepared to live with the consequences but also defend their action.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 27, 2024 8:13:48 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse. Yeah, I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. Try to stop the guy who's stated he intends to destroy the world or what, do nothing? Based on what's been presented we've already succeeded. Now we get to go smack down a couple uppity wannabe gods.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 27, 2024 8:26:47 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. Dropping the ball, often repeatedly, is a pillar of BioWare plots. Remember Trespasser? Two years pass without player input and now your precious organization is full of spies and everyone hates you because you're still squatting in their keeps. The game's writing fucks it up for you and then you as the protagonist get to apologize for it and fix it. Hopefully.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 27, 2024 11:44:01 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. Dropping the ball, often repeatedly, is a pillar of BioWare plots. Remember Trespasser? Two years pass without player input and now your precious organization is full of spies and everyone hates you because you're still squatting in their keeps. The game's writing fucks it up for you and then you as the protagonist get to apologize for it and fix it. Hopefully. Considering that a big theme of Inquisition is that each organization eventually gets at least a little bit corrupted - too unwieldy and mired in politics and such - it was entirely expected. Especially that nobody knew anything about Solas, who he truly was or his plans, and Qunari also tried very hard to surprise the South with its plans of invasion. Also, I do think there were legitimate questions as to why Inquisition is still a thing after the main threat has been dealt with years ago.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 27, 2024 13:45:07 GMT
Also, I do think there were legitimate questions as to why Inquisition is still a thing after the main threat has been dealt with years ago. This is true but I did find it amusing that we uncovered a reason for its continued existence but the powers still weren't happy. In fact I do wonder how much we told them if Teagan was more concerned about Solas antagonising the Qunari than the fact that he wanted to destroy the Veil. It really seemed sureal. Solas or us with his prompting had exposed a Qunari plot to conquer the south, with evidence to back it up, but Teagan was worried that we might have upset the Qunari in doing this. I still don't understand that one. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) Even if I was angry with Solas for his deception and betrayal, I had to admit if he hadn't pointed us in the right direction we'd have been overrun with Qunari by the end, even assuming we'd avoided being blown to smithereens. I have no doubt that his motives weren't entirely altruistic (as he admitted was the case with a hostile Inquisitor) but nevertheless we did owe him one for that.
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Elessara
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Post by Elessara on Jun 27, 2024 13:46:58 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. No we didn't and I'll be furious if they force that assumption on us. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse. They are not exactly the same. In DAI our PC didn't know the ritual was taking place. They just walked in on it by accident and our acquisition of the magic ball was equally by chance. They didn't have any agency in what happened. If the security at the Conclave was what it should have been, neither Corypheus nor the PC should have got anywhere near the Divine or even gained admittance to the Conclave itself in the case of the Dalish or Carta PC. In DAV Rook had already been told what Solas planned to do. The mission was to stop him destroying the world. Varric's brilliant plan was to talk him out of it. He failed. No one else had an alternative to offer, so Rook took the initiative and did what seemed logical to stop the ritual. I believe Neve may have made slight objection but not enough to dissuade Rook in the heat of the moment when, from everything they had been told, if Solas completed the ritual the world would end. So, they took decisive action that did stop the ritual. It is not their fault if Solas was doing something completely different at the time and so there were unforeseen consequences. Had Solas told Varric what he was doing, Rook might have acted differently as they appeared to be able to hear what was being said. I swear if everyone dumps on Rook as a result of this and they are not allowed to defend themselves in the way I have outlined above, I shall be really angry. Rook acted in the only way they could in the circumstances and based off the information they had been given. As Rook I am perfectly prepared to live with the consequences but also defend their action. Yeah, I know it's not exactly the same. That's why I said "kind of".
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 28, 2024 9:01:24 GMT
Dropping the ball, often repeatedly, is a pillar of BioWare plots. Remember Trespasser? Two years pass without player input and now your precious organization is full of spies and everyone hates you because you're still squatting in their keeps. The game's writing fucks it up for you and then you as the protagonist get to apologize for it and fix it. Hopefully. Considering that a big theme of Inquisition is that each organization eventually gets at least a little bit corrupted - too unwieldy and mired in politics and such - it was entirely expected. Especially that nobody knew anything about Solas, who he truly was or his plans, and Qunari also tried very hard to surprise the South with its plans of invasion. Also, I do think there were legitimate questions as to why Inquisition is still a thing after the main threat has been dealt with years ago. I agree with that, it's just that it all happened without any player input. You couldn't give back the keeps, you couldn't send your people to their well deserved private life and disband the Inquisition. If you could have done that everyone would have been content and there wouldn't have been an organization for Solas and the Qunari to infiltrate in the first place. The Inquisition's purpose was fulfilled anyway but it stuck around without the Inquisitor having a say about that for two years.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 28, 2024 9:26:51 GMT
I agree with that, it's just that it all happened without any player input. You couldn't give back the keeps, you couldn't send your people to their well deserved private life and disband the Inquisition. If you could have done that everyone would have been content and there wouldn't have been an organization for Solas and the Qunari to infiltrate in the first place. The Inquisition's purpose was fulfilled anyway but it stuck around without the Inquisitor having a say about that for two years. It would certainly have been nice to have some context to the attitude of people in Trespasser. Perhaps a collection of letters to at least show people had been asking for action of some sort. Since the Divine was always a member of our organisation and it had been originally set up under the mandate of the deceased Divine Justinia, surely the responsibility was with her successor to ask us to disband or hand it over before then. Whilst they never said as much, I think actually it suited the Divine to leave it running whilst they consolidated their own power. In the epilogue to the main game it was hinted that this was the case with other people who owed their position to us too, particularly the leader of Orlais. From this perspective, I can understand why Ferelden was becoming jittery over the whole thing. It wasn't that we were an independent power structure but that we were becoming too closely involved with Orlais. Hence Ferelden favouring complete disbanding of the organisation but Orlais simply wishing it to be handed over to the Divine. I do have to wonder what Leliana was doing with her time in the interium, though, particularly if she wasn't Divine. She may not have had enough time to do proper background checks when they formed the Inquisition but after she discovered that Solas had probably lied about his origins, that was surely a wake-up call that she should perhaps check on other people in positions of authority, like those responsible for arranging transfer of supplies, or ordering them in the first place. It is clear that the Viddasala had apparently uncovered a great deal of information about Solas and his activities: Elven magic already tore the sky apart (Solas told us this after Haven). If the agents of Fen'Harel are not stopped, you will shatter the world as well. (How does she know this?) You would have died from the mark on your hand but for the help of one of their chief agents (Possibly she got this from Iron Bull but she identifies Solas as an agent of Fen'Harel which Bull didn't know) Then same agent who helped seal the Breach, who led you to Skyhold (again she could have got this from Bull), who gave Corypheus the orb (No one knew this but Solas and his agent who did this. We didn't learn it from him until after this conversation. How does she know? Did they capture and torture his agent for information?) Then founded the Inquisition (Why does she think that he founded it? Is it because she believes we are knowingly working with him?) She names Solas as the chief agent of Fen'Harel rather than Fen'Harel himself but how does she know this? So, Charter saying in Tevinter Nights that the Ben'Hassrath know more about Solas and his movements than anyone is certainly true but how come they did get so far ahead of our Spymaster with this?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 28, 2024 17:46:01 GMT
I agree with that, it's just that it all happened without any player input. You couldn't give back the keeps, you couldn't send your people to their well deserved private life and disband the Inquisition. If you could have done that everyone would have been content and there wouldn't have been an organization for Solas and the Qunari to infiltrate in the first place. The Inquisition's purpose was fulfilled anyway but it stuck around without the Inquisitor having a say about that for two years. It would certainly have been nice to have some context to the attitude of people in Trespasser. Perhaps a collection of letters to at least show people had been asking for action of some sort. One of the first things we learn about in Trespasser is that the last 2 years are implied have been busier for Inquisition than when it was dealing with Corypheus.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 28, 2024 17:58:39 GMT
One of the first things we learn about in Trespasser is that the last 2 years are implied have been busier for Inquisition than when it was dealing with Corypheus. One of the reasons I always play the two DLC after the main game is that it makes sense to me that we would not find the opportunity to do these things until after Cory had been dealt with. I could just about see us heading down to check out what the problems were in the Deep Roads, in view of the possible darkspawn connection, but going into the Frostback Basin in search of information about the original Inquisitor and possible unrest in the Avvar did seem something that we would have done during that 2 year period. Then trundling round dealing with stray rifts that hadn't automatically closed with the Breach. However, I assume it was because we hadn't been doing that for a while is why the anchor started playing up because it wasn't in use and being drained down periodically as a result. I also imagined that the nobles in Ferelden had become rather complaisant about us dealing with problems and somewhat lazy as a result, whilst Orlais was probably still recovering from the civil war, so we likely had been busy and thus were still necessary, so the complaint about us not disbanding wasn't really valid.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Jun 29, 2024 12:11:38 GMT
Var Lath Vir Suledin ![:yas:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/gKZRdVgBgOkaWQrogvsl.png) ![](https://64.media.tumblr.com/919af2d3057befad7011694c0b7955de/1a08a488164c1df4-ee/s1280x1920/ef83aa631ed6d5f84c05b2ab587d51192e50a25f.jpg) Translation: "Do not be sorrowful, my heart, The way of endurance rewards, and Guides you to our love, And our joy - Solas" sourse
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Post by themikefest on Jun 29, 2024 12:32:56 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse. In the case with the rook, Harding had a chance to use her bow on solas, but the reason was it won't work, he's too powerful. You don't know till you try. It likely would have been enough to distract the elf enough for Varric to tackle him or maybe even push the elf over the ledge. I do agree with the idea of destroying the scaffolding to stop the elf though I would have let Harding use her bow.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 29, 2024 13:41:56 GMT
Didn't know that Ghilan'nain's name actually meant guide. I mean I know the Dalish see her as the goddess of guides and navigation but I thought perhaps her name might mean something completely different in view of what we now know about her. On well you live and learn. Perhaps the actions of Ghilan'nain will reunite them.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 29, 2024 17:36:27 GMT
Didn't know that Ghilan'nain's name actually meant guide. I mean I know the Dalish see her as the goddess of guides and navigation but I thought perhaps her name might mean something completely different in view of what we now know about her. On well you live and learn. Perhaps the actions of Ghilan'nain will reunite them. The name can also be ironic, or show how much a character has strayed from original path (doubly ironic, in that case ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) )
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jun 29, 2024 21:41:56 GMT
Var Lath Vir Suledin ![:yas:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/htAnsQJksnVMNdAYcCgo.png) Translation: "Do not be sorrowful, my heart, The way of endurance rewards, and Guides you to our love, And our joy - Solas" sourse Dang it Weekes, giving me hope for a happy ending.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 29, 2024 21:54:27 GMT
I honestly can't believe we're starting the game as someone who dropped the ball. It's kind of how we started Inquisition, we just didn't know it at the time lol. In both cases, the rituals needed to be stopped though so ... stuff goes sideways but in a manner we can (eventually) deal with. If the rituals aren't stopped, things would be a lot worse. Yea hin fact tha twhol egameplay reveal erminded m eo fthe prologu eof DAI even down to the fac twe fought a Prid eDemon right a ttheend o fit. We also as a matte ro ffac tw eals ostar tunarmed and unequipped and onl pick up ou rgea rpar twa ythrough. Onl ydifferenceis Casandra doesn't trus tyou so tells you t odrop it despite the fact you picked it up to help her whereas Hardin gtells yo ut oick i tup.
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Post by catcher on Jun 30, 2024 5:03:47 GMT
I agree with that, it's just that it all happened without any player input. You couldn't give back the keeps, you couldn't send your people to their well deserved private life and disband the Inquisition. If you could have done that everyone would have been content and there wouldn't have been an organization for Solas and the Qunari to infiltrate in the first place. The Inquisition's purpose was fulfilled anyway but it stuck around without the Inquisitor having a say about that for two years. I have several thoughts on that to the contrary I would like to offer. To whit... 1: Is it better for there to be no Player input or for there to be Player input with no change in the actual beginning state? The story of Trespasser was set to be what it was. If they had written a different story, there probably would have been different actions the Player might have taken to scotch that start as well. At some point, the writers have little choice but to assume a particular beginning state and let the Player make some assumptions that connect the dots. So, if the writers had included a couple of scenes where your Inquisitor chooses these things, but you still wind up in Halamshiral with the Fereldens looking for better assurances that the Inquisition is gone and the Orlesians looking to snatch up the pieces, would this really seem like Player agency to you? 2: If you think it would be easy for the Inquisitor to just 'disband' the Inquisition, I'm afraid I have news for you. The first Inquisition went on for over a century and it didn't even disband then, but was subsumed into the budding Chantry as the Seekers of Truth and the Templars. Why would it make any sense for the Inquisition to disband when the Chantry is still getting back its footing under a new (probably highly controversial) Divine, Orlais is still weakened from the Civil War, and the remaining cells of Venatori and Red Templars are still out there? Assuming that the Inquisitions' mission was ended when Corypheus was finally defeated ignores the reality that most declarations of the 'mission' of the Inquisition do not reference Corypheus, but refer much more often to 'Order'. One of the reasons War Table missions exist is to communicate to the Player the effects of events on the wider world of Thedas. Those struggles are still ongoing with a distinct power vacuum, especially if you kick the Wardens out of the south. 3: If you think Teagan was actually worried about a pile of rock in the Crestwood, I have more bad news for you. I know the writers of Trespasser have received a fair amount of criticism for the portrayal of Teagan and I can understand some of that, but the fact of the matter is that there were plenty of signs that the sympathetic character of Origins had some flaws that explain his position in Trespasser. While he shows concern for the Darkspawn and support for the Wardens, it's often couched more in terms of his own family's power. Early on when Loghain seizes the regency to the throne: Teagan seeks to turn Anora against him not by pointing to the darkspawn threat or serious flaws in the story about the Wardens but pointing directly at Calen's (his nephew's) fate. (Did he also do what was best for your husband, Your Majesty?) With Calen dead and Aemon incapacitated, Teagan sees that the balance of power has shifted, even more when Arl Howe is given Highever in addition to Amaranthine. There's nothing wrong to being politically savvy as well as a generally good guy, but that also comes home to roost later. Consider that Teagan was almost goaded into a duel by Gaspard, which means that the feeling about the Orlesian occupation wasn't just a Loghain thing. That the Ferelden crown did not previously think much at all of Caer Bronach is easy to see as it had no discernable garrison and seemed to be in ill repair. The fort is just a symbol of the threat of a new, large, well provisioned and connected force whose leader is not connected to Ferelden in any way but is closely chummy with the Orlesian throne. Teagan is signaling to his other highborn audience that this is the true threat to him. Add in that the past years have not been kind to Teagan with Aemon drifting off then being ordered by the crown to accept the Rebel Mages only to have them throw him out of his own castle. To me, his attitude is entirely justified and even a qunari body and some explosive barrels don't clear that suspicion and fear away. 4: If you think the Inquisition is just another army, yup, still more bad news. Even if you did completely dismantle the army and abandon Skyhold, neither Ferelden or Orlais can allow the Inquisition to dissolve on its own terms. For this, a quick history story: when Napoleon first abdicated the Allied powers gave him a small island in the Mediterranean close to Corsica and the southern French coast with a detachment of soldiers and nominal control of the island. He was there 10 months before escaping having managed to raise a detachment of 1,000 troops and was in Paris in another month having taken in thousands of soldiers in his swelling army without having fired a shot. Back in Thedas, remember how absolutely certain Cassandra was that if they only had Hawke, everything would have been alright? There is no doubt in my mind that if the Inquisitor were to use their past and charisma, the Inquisition could again be a fearsome fighting force in a relatively short time and both Ferelden and Orlais knew that. The only way to neutralize that was to get the Inquisitor him/herself to disband or subsume that force AT the directions of the powers, thus establishing their authority. Political solution to a political problem. Even the choice of delegates that were not themselves the rulers but highly ranked ambassadors was intended to put the Inquisitor in their place without outright insulting them. Thanks for your time.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 30, 2024 6:41:00 GMT
I agree with that, it's just that it all happened without any player input. You couldn't give back the keeps, you couldn't send your people to their well deserved private life and disband the Inquisition. If you could have done that everyone would have been content and there wouldn't have been an organization for Solas and the Qunari to infiltrate in the first place. The Inquisition's purpose was fulfilled anyway but it stuck around without the Inquisitor having a say about that for two years. I have several thoughts on that to the contrary I would like to offer. To whit... 1: Is it better for there to be no Player input or for there to be Player input with no change in the actual beginning state? The story of Trespasser was set to be what it was. If they had written a different story, there probably would have been different actions the Player might have taken to scotch that start as well. At some point, the writers have little choice but to assume a particular beginning state and let the Player make some assumptions that connect the dots. So, if the writers had included a couple of scenes where your Inquisitor chooses these things, but you still wind up in Halamshiral with the Fereldens looking for better assurances that the Inquisition is gone and the Orlesians looking to snatch up the pieces, would this really seem like Player agency to you? I agree with you, and will also add that every DA game to date was a game where we can only make certain choices on a path we were put. We couldn't really leave Inquisition after Leliana and Cassandra propose we stay - that's an immediate game over. Not reverting time during 'In Hushed Whispers'? Game over. Not securing enough allies? Game over. Kicked out of the Winter Palace during 'Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts'? Game over. Not going after Cory? Game over. I think the best way to approach the whole thing is to think that we only get to play in world-states that are VIABLE - any other word-state where, say, Inquisitor... dunno... holes up in Val Royeaux and becomes a famous food critic... is a world state which ultimately FAILS, because Inquisitor wasn't there at crucial moments in time to stop the Qunari invasion and find out things about Solas/the Dread Wolf. So - out of infinite amount of world-states we only get to play those that will result with prolonging Thedas' existence - the only states where the story of that place still can be told. Every other different world-state, where story diverges too much from what we have available in games, is one where certain actions or inactions ultimately lead to failure, because people that could make a difference weren't in a proper time and place for the story to continue.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 30, 2024 6:50:11 GMT
I have several thoughts on that to the contrary I would like to offer. To whit... 1: Is it better for there to be no Player input or for there to be Player input with no change in the actual beginning state? The story of Trespasser was set to be what it was. If they had written a different story, there probably would have been different actions the Player might have taken to scotch that start as well. At some point, the writers have little choice but to assume a particular beginning state and let the Player make some assumptions that connect the dots. So, if the writers had included a couple of scenes where your Inquisitor chooses these things, but you still wind up in Halamshiral with the Fereldens looking for better assurances that the Inquisition is gone and the Orlesians looking to snatch up the pieces, would this really seem like Player agency to you? I agree with you, and will also add that every DA game to date was a game where we can only make certain choices on a path we were put. We couldn't really leave Inquisition after Leliana and Cassandra propose we stay - that's an immediate game over. Not reverting time during 'In Hushed Whispers'? Game over. Not securing enough allies? Game over. Kicked out of the Winter Palace during 'Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts'? Game over. Not going after Cory? Game over. I think the best way to approach the whole thing is to think that we only get to play in world-states that are VIABLE - any other word-state where, say, Inquisitor... dunno... holes up in Val Royeaux and becomes a famous food critic... is a world state which ultimately FAILS, because Inquisitor wasn't there at crucial moments in time to stop the Qunari invasion and find out things about Solas/the Dread Wolf. So - out of infinite amount of world-states we only get to play those that will result with prolonging Thedas' existence - the only states where the story of that place still can be told. Every other different world-state, where story diverges too much from what we have available in games, is one where certain actions or inactions ultimately lead to failure, because people that could make a difference weren't in a proper time and place for the story to continue. I view it as we're co authors with BioWare. Effectively it's our characters, their story.
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