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Post by QuizzyBunny on May 20, 2021 10:48:29 GMT
Okay, so sorry if this has already been mentioned (and likely if so debated to death) but I have to bring this up about the teaser... I find the fact that we see Liara a bit, I dunno problematic? The reason for this being that to me it leads to one of two conclusions: 1. Since Liara can die in ME3 it sets the precedent where BioWare will create their own canon assuming the vid takes place after ME3 (which is likely given the Reaper). 2. If (1) isn't true, then this must take place before ME3. That leads to one of these possible scenarios: A ) It shows Shepard's body being recovered pre ME2 (why the dead Reaper would be there is a mystery though) B ) The vid isn't related to Shepard at all, but some other N7 C ) The vid isn't connected to the story at all and just a way for us to remember "the good times" I really don't want Bioware to start deciding each game what's canon or not, it would ruin the whole point of making choices if they keep getting overwritten anyway. I'm fine with past decisions being naturally scrubbed because a move in time and space (like MEA). Is there some other way to interpret Liara's presence?
Edit* I should maybe add a D ) where the asari simply isn't Liara at all, though if that's the case I suspect people will have a meltdown.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2021 12:37:30 GMT
Is there some other way to interpret Liara's presence? No.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 20, 2021 13:21:56 GMT
My thought is the Citadel COuncil should effectively no longer exist. After a devastating galactic war, one which the entire relay network is shut down for any length of time, the whole system would break up and different areas of space go their own way. I'd agree if we were talking about anything resembling a real human government body, but the Council has been a stable and relatively functional galactic center of power for almost three thousand years. If we're talking about decades or less, I could believe most of the species feeling loyal and attached enough to that system to stick it out until they can rebuild it, even just because nobody knows what the galaxy would look like without a Council, and they might not be very inclined to find out. There'll definitely be parts of space that end up going their own way in the meantime though, especially the ones who'll have to wait the longest to rejoin the new world order, and territory and resource conflicts and new political schisms as a consequence. ...I gotta admit, I'm a little bit worried that Bioware is going to try to take the opportunity to make 'several hundred years later' humanity a snapshot of their current agenda's vision for our future. The other species's societal development thorugh the ages is left vague and arbitrary in the trilogy, but we know how fast human culture moves. I can just imagine them trying to present us as having 'transcended' to a more enlightened and decadent existence without social boundaries by then, except for a small misguided faction who remains mired in tradition and prejudice and try to curtail 'progress', who will basically be the villains or the new Cerberus. Not to say that that scenario - and those hypothetical paths for humanity - can't be written in interesting and tasteful and meaningful ways that give food for thought and remain totally sympathetic. But modern Bioware sure isn't capable of that depth.
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Post by Iakus on May 20, 2021 13:35:21 GMT
My thought is the Citadel COuncil should effectively no longer exist. After a devastating galactic war, one which the entire relay network is shut down for any length of time, the whole system would break up and different areas of space go their own way. I'd agree if we were talking about anything resembling a real human government body, but the Council has been a stable and relatively functional galactic center of power for almost three thousand years. If we're talking about decades or less, I could believe most of the species feeling loyal and attached enough to that system to stick it out until they can rebuild it, even just because nobody knows what the galaxy would look like without a Council, and they might not be very inclined to find out. There'll definitely be parts of space that end up going their own way in the meantime though, especially the ones who'll have to wait the longest to rejoin the new world order, and territory and resource conflicts and new political schisms as a consequence. ...I gotta admit, I'm a little bit worried that Bioware is going to try to take the opportunity to make 'several hundred years later' humanity a snapshot of their current agenda's vision for our future. The other species's societal development thorugh the ages is left vague and arbitrary in the trilogy, but we know how fast human culture moves. I can just imagine them trying to present us as having 'transcended' to a more enlightened and decadent existence without social boundaries by then, except for a small misguided faction who remains mired in tradition and prejudice and try to curtail 'progress', who will basically be the villains or the new Cerberus. Not to say that that scenario - and those hypothetical paths for humanity - can't be written in interesting and tasteful and meaningful ways that give food for thought and remain totally sympathetic. But modern Bioware sure isn't capable of that depth. Thing is, under such conditions, travel and communications would be come extremely difficult if not impossible between large sections of the galaxy. Without QEC devices, it would take days just to get a message to a neighboring system. The reason the Citadel Council got so big and has been so stable for thousands of years is BECAUSE of the relay network. Without it, their control over the galaxy is GONE.
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 14:20:36 GMT
Okay, so sorry if this has already been mentioned (and likely if so debated to death) but I have to bring this up about the teaser... I find the fact that we see Liara a bit, I dunno problematic? The reason for this being that to me it leads to one of two conclusions: 1. Since Liara can die in ME3 it sets the precedent where BioWare will create their own canon assuming the vid takes place after ME3 (which is likely given the Reaper). 2. If (1) isn't true, than this must take place before ME3. That leads to one of these possible scenarios: A ) It shows Shepard's body being recovered pre ME2 (why the dead Reaper would be there is a mystery though) B ) The vid isn't related to Shepard at all, but some other N7 C ) The vid isn't connected to the story at all and just a way for us to remember "the good times" I really don't want Bioware to start deciding each game what's canon or not, it would ruin the whole point of making choices if they keep getting overwritten anyway. I'm fine with past decisions being naturally scrubbed because a move in time and space (like MEA). Is there some other way to interpret Liara's presence? The only time Liara can die in ME3 is if she's one of the two squadmates for the final mission and you have a low EMS (where most people die, in the Extended cut the destroy version kill most life in the galaxy actually). Low EMS endings are not a thing in the tapestry released back in November 2017. There is no entries in the ME3 tapestry to specify the two squadmates in the last mission. It doesn't take EMS level into consideration for the final choices and there is no way to just label anyone as killed by Harbringer's beam in the squad section. Low EMS variation is threated just like the dead Shepard at the end of ME2: a dead end you can't continue from (you can't set less than 2 surviving squadmates in the tapestry for the Suicide Mission). In other word, Liara is always alive in any world states that BioWare will use to move forward.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2021 14:37:57 GMT
The only time Liara can die in ME3 is if she's one of the two squadmates for the final mission and you have a low EMS (where most people die, in the Extended cut the destroy version kill most life in the galaxy actually). You do know that she can die, and still have the memorial scene, right? Meaning that everything is rebuilt. It just takes a bit more time. It's only if ems is below 1750 that life is in very bad shape to rebuild. Unitl Bioware gets that tapestry working correctly, it's still possible they could add the two squadmates taken on the beam run. Why I say that is because there's only a choice between romancing Allers or not, but there isn't the option to choose whether or not she was brought onboard the SR2.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 20, 2021 14:45:37 GMT
THing is, unders uch conditions, travel and communications would be come extremely difficult if not impossible between large sections of the galaxy. Without QEC devices, it would take days just to get a message to a neighboring system. The reason the CItadel COuncil got so big and has been so stable for thousands of years is BECAUSE of the relay network. Wihtout it, their control over the galaxy is GONE. Sure, I totally agree. Doesn't change the fact that the idea of there being a Council is thoroughly carved into everyone's history and understanding of how a galaxy should be run. If Earth had a single stable democratic system keeping everything going in a pretty sane and responsible manner for a thousand years then everyone wouldn't suddenly start trying to raise their own kingdoms the moment the power went out. We'd try to maintain as much of the infrastructure as we could and improvise whatever we needed to to last until we could get through to each other and start coordinating again, at least until we were forced to do otherwise or we lost faith in it being a realistic proposition. Obviously people wouldn't wait generations pining for the system to come back online while things fell apart around them, but a lot would hold faith that things would someday return to the way they were for a good while. Beyond a decade though, yeah, all bets would be off. If it takes longer than that then the fleets from the battle over Earth will probably come back to what used to be Citadel Space and find that the Volus are in charge now, tough luck. Also, I'm currently firing up Jade Empire just because you reminded me of it. Thanks a lot.
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 14:48:00 GMT
The only time Liara can die in ME3 is if she's one of the two squadmates for the final mission and you have a low EMS (where most people die, in the Extended cut the destroy version kill most life in the galaxy actually). You do know that she can die, and still have the memorial scene, right? Meaning that everything is rebuilt. It just takes a bit more time. It's only if ems is below 1750 that life is in very bad shape to rebuild. Unitl Bioware gets that tapestry working correctly, it's still possible they could add the two squadmates taken on the beam run. Why I say that is because there's only a choice between romancing Allers or not, but there isn't the option to choose whether or not she was brought onboard the SR2. I'm aware, but like I said the tapestry doesn't care about the EMS level. Or should I say, it behave as if the player had high EMS. As for the tapestry getting additions because certain things are missing, not everything ever made it to the Dragon Age tapestry either. Also, it is unlikely that BioWare would add the option to kill Liara in ME3 if they are already planning to bring her back for a post-ME3 game.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2021 14:52:01 GMT
You do know that she can die, and still have the memorial scene, right? Meaning that everything is rebuilt. It just takes a bit more time. It's only if ems is below 1750 that life is in very bad shape to rebuild. Unitl Bioware gets that tapestry working correctly, it's still possible they could add the two squadmates taken on the beam run. Why I say that is because there's only a choice between romancing Allers or not, but there isn't the option to choose whether or not she was brought onboard the SR2. I'm aware, but like I said the tapestry doesn't care about the EMS level. Or should I say, it behave as if the player had high EMS. As for the tapestry getting additions because certain things are missing, not everything ever made it to the Dragon Age tapestry either. Also, it is unlikely that BioWare would add the option to kill Liara in ME3 if they are already planning to bring her back for a post-ME3 game. And yet she still can be killed in ME3 with the remaster. If she is to be in the next game, I would want Gamble to explain why he would tweet we take players choice seriously when that is not true.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 20, 2021 15:01:30 GMT
Just checked out that tapestry you guys are talking about. Had no idea that was a thing. Love the artwork.
I find it triggering that Jacob is labeled 'the loyal marine' in the ME2 romance roster though. Like, is that supposed to be ironic or something?
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Post by t4rget on May 20, 2021 15:12:16 GMT
...I gotta admit, I'm a little bit worried that Bioware is going to try to take the opportunity to make 'several hundred years later' humanity a snapshot of their current agenda's vision for our future. Or they won't. They can set the story in Andromeda. Problem solved. They will need some plotium to explain Liara and the dead reapers in the trailer but it will make their work a lot easier.
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 16:09:23 GMT
I'm aware, but like I said the tapestry doesn't care about the EMS level. Or should I say, it behave as if the player had high EMS. As for the tapestry getting additions because certain things are missing, not everything ever made it to the Dragon Age tapestry either. Also, it is unlikely that BioWare would add the option to kill Liara in ME3 if they are already planning to bring her back for a post-ME3 game. And yet she still can be killed in ME3 with the remaster. If she is to be in the next game, I would want Gamble to explain why he would tweet we take players choice seriously when that is not true. You can still kill Shepard off at the end of ME2 too and you never could important that into ME3 either. Labelling a world state as a dead end that can't be imported and not allowing the tapestry to create such a world state is different than ignoring player's choice. Endings where Harbringer's beam can kill squadmates aren't allowed on the tapestry, just like dead Shepard in ME2 isn't allowed there. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that some endings aren't narratively considered viable for continuation, just because some people really hate Liara and think taking her on a low EMS beam run means they can kill her in every possible world state.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2021 16:20:41 GMT
I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that some endings aren't narratively considered viable for continuation, just because some people really hate Liara and think taking her on a low EMS beam run means they can kill her in every possible world state. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that someone from Bioware would say something on twitter, but then reneges that comment because of reasons. I would be curious what the feedback be from people if something they didn't like was in the next game especially if it's something that didn't happen in their playthrough. If they can bring back the asari, they can bring everyone back if they want. Who is thinking she can be killed in every world state? I'm pointing out she can be killed in ME3. So if Bioware were to have her in the next game, it makes that playthrough invalid reducing replay value because why do it if the asari might be in the next game?
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Post by Iakus on May 20, 2021 16:25:46 GMT
THing is, unders uch conditions, travel and communications would be come extremely difficult if not impossible between large sections of the galaxy. Without QEC devices, it would take days just to get a message to a neighboring system. The reason the CItadel COuncil got so big and has been so stable for thousands of years is BECAUSE of the relay network. Wihtout it, their control over the galaxy is GONE. Sure, I totally agree. Doesn't change the fact that the idea of there being a Council is thoroughly carved into everyone's history and understanding of how a galaxy should be run. If Earth had a single stable democratic system keeping everything going in a pretty sane and responsible manner for a thousand years then everyone wouldn't suddenly start trying to raise their own kingdoms the moment the power went out. We'd try to maintain as much of the infrastructure as we could and improvise whatever we needed to to last until we could get through to each other and start coordinating again, at least until we were forced to do otherwise or we lost faith in it being a realistic proposition. Obviously people wouldn't wait generations pining for the system to come back online while things fell apart around them, but a lot would hold faith that things would someday return to the way they were for a good while. Beyond a decade though, yeah, all bets would be off. If it takes longer than that then the fleets from the battle over Earth will probably come back to what used to be Citadel Space and find that the Volus are in charge now, tough luck. Also, I'm currently firing up Jade Empire just because you reminded me of it. Thanks a lot. Eh, maybe if things were still going okay in that region of space. But if they start suffering food shortages, pirate attacks, plagues, natural disasters, etc. some would take the opportunity to jump in and carve out their own fiefdom. But in the end, as you say, people wouldn't wait around while everything collapsed completely. New governments would have to be formed to keep the lights on. And would these new organizations be so eager to hand things back to the Council decades, perhaps generations later when contact is reestablished?
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Post by RedCaesar97 on May 20, 2021 17:14:33 GMT
Unitl Bioware gets that tapestry working correctly, it's still possible they could add the two squadmates taken on the beam run. Why I say that is because there's only a choice between romancing Allers or not, but there isn't the option to choose whether or not she was brought onboard the SR2. I do not understand this statement. In ME3, you can reject Allers from coming on to the Normandy. Maybe it is related to this "tapestry" thing? I do not know what that is. Maybe it mentioned earlier in this thread and I missed it. Apologies in advance if I am wasting your time.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2021 17:20:20 GMT
Unitl Bioware gets that tapestry working correctly, it's still possible they could add the two squadmates taken on the beam run. Why I say that is because there's only a choice between romancing Allers or not, but there isn't the option to choose whether or not she was brought onboard the SR2. I do not understand this statement. In ME3, you can reject Allers from coming on to the Normandy. Maybe it is related to this "tapestry" thing? I do not know what that is. Maybe it mentioned earlier in this thread and I missed it. Apologies in advance if I am wasting your time. You can, but it's not an option in the tapestry at this time, or at least the last time I checked. It only has the option whether or not she was romanced.
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 17:33:51 GMT
I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that some endings aren't narratively considered viable for continuation, just because some people really hate Liara and think taking her on a low EMS beam run means they can kill her in every possible world state. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that someone from Bioware would say something on twitter, but then reneges that comment because of reasons. I would be curious what the feedback be from people if something they didn't like was in the next game especially if it's something that didn't happen in their playthrough. If they can bring back the asari, they can bring everyone back if they want. Who is thinking she can be killed in every world state? I'm pointing out she can be killed in ME3. So if Bioware were to have her in the next game, it makes that playthrough invalid reducing replay value because why do it if the asari might be in the next game? Saying player's choices matter is different than saying all players choices are viable for continuation. See Shepard dying in ME2 suicide mission as an example, I already brought up multiple times, of BioWare making it so a player's choice was not viable for continuation. It's not about ignoring the player choices, it's about setting narrative boundaries for future stories. The tapestry Destroy/Control endings do not mention any damage done to the galaxy (it would have been easy to add multiple Destroy/Control choices) and Synthesis is always available. The world state in the tapestry can't be below 2650 EMS extended cut version, 2800 if we include Synthesis. The cut-off was "no damage to the galaxy" and the side effect of that is that no squadmates die in the beam run because the EMS is too high for it to trigger. Side effect: Liara can't be dead in any world state in the tapestry. And I doubt it's going to change as they already have to handle Refuse on top of Destroy/Control/Synthesis. Adding multiple levels of destroy/controls probably doesn't enter the word budget they have. For people wondering what is the tapestry, go top the masseffectarchives.com/, log in with you EA account. Click on the "hamburger" menu (tree parallel lines) next to Ryder Gallery and select Tapestry.
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Post by traks on May 20, 2021 17:37:29 GMT
Okay, so sorry if this has already been mentioned (and likely if so debated to death) but I have to bring this up about the teaser... I find the fact that we see Liara a bit, I dunno problematic? The reason for this being that to me it leads to one of two conclusions: 1. Since Liara can die in ME3 it sets the precedent where BioWare will create their own canon assuming the vid takes place after ME3 (which is likely given the Reaper). 2. If (1) isn't true, then this must take place before ME3. That leads to one of these possible scenarios: A ) It shows Shepard's body being recovered pre ME2 (why the dead Reaper would be there is a mystery though) B ) The vid isn't related to Shepard at all, but some other N7 C ) The vid isn't connected to the story at all and just a way for us to remember "the good times" I really don't want Bioware to start deciding each game what's canon or not, it would ruin the whole point of making choices if they keep getting overwritten anyway. I'm fine with past decisions being naturally scrubbed because a move in time and space (like MEA). Is there some other way to interpret Liara's presence?
Edit* I should maybe add a D ) where the asari simply isn't Liara at all, though if that's the case I suspect people will have a meltdown. Why? You need a set starting point for the next story that likely wasn't created by your or my Shepard to give the writers enough freedom. That should not be a problem, unless you are forced to play as that Shepard (that wasn't yours), which won't happen with the game likely set hundreds of years after ME3 and us playing a different character with Shepard being a dead historic hero. But, getting back to the question on hand a bit more specific. Why do you have a problem with a character being used in a trailer that could've died in a game before? Did you have the same problem with all the possibly dead squadmates in ME3 trailers like this? I count seven NPCs that could possibly be dead before ME3: Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Legion, Ashley, Mordin and Jack. So Liara being used doesn't even have to mean much per se. From a story standpoint though and if the guess that we play a different character hundreds of years in the future is correct, it makes sense that Liara as the Shadow Broker is being used as a link to the old times. Obi Wan Liara. "Shadow broker? That's a name not heard around here for a long time..."
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iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 20, 2021 17:49:44 GMT
I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that someone from Bioware would say something on twitter, but then reneges that comment because of reasons. I would be curious what the feedback be from people if something they didn't like was in the next game especially if it's something that didn't happen in their playthrough. If they can bring back the asari, they can bring everyone back if they want. Who is thinking she can be killed in every world state? I'm pointing out she can be killed in ME3. So if Bioware were to have her in the next game, it makes that playthrough invalid reducing replay value because why do it if the asari might be in the next game? Saying player's choices matter is different than saying all players choices are viable for continuation. See Shepard dying in ME2 suicide mission as an example, I already brought up multiple times, of BioWare making it so a player's choice was not viable for continuation. It's not about ignoring the player choices, it's about setting narrative boundaries for future stories. The tapestry Destroy/Control endings do not mention any damage done to the galaxy (it would have been easy to add multiple Destroy/Control choices) and Synthesis is always available. The world state in the tapestry can't be below 2650 EMS extended cut version, 2800 if we include Synthesis. The cut-off was "no damage to the galaxy" and the side effect of that is that no squadmates die in the beam run because the EMS is too high for it to trigger. Side effect: Liara can't be dead in any world state in the tapestry. And I doubt it's going to change as they already have to handle Refuse on top of Destroy/Control/Synthesis. Adding multiple levels of destroy/controls probably doesn't enter the word budget they have. For people wondering what is the tapestry, go top the masseffectarchives.com/, log in with you EA account. Click on the "hamburger" menu (tree parallel lines) next to Ryder Gallery and select Tapestry. I suspect that however they continue the Milky Way in future Mass Effect games, "High EMS" is going to be assumed no matter what.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2021 19:25:28 GMT
Also, it is unlikely that BioWare would add the option to kill Liara in ME3 if they are already planning to bring her back for a post-ME3 game But it is possible. And if you bring her back, that means you can get anyone back. Saying player's choices matter is different than saying all players choices are viable for continuation There we go. Someone understands. In a CYOA game, some options end earlier than others. Which is why there is no continuation for a dead Shepard and, if you're OK with a ME3 with Shepard alive, you should be OK with a ME4 with Shepard alive. And if you're OK with a "quantum state" squadmate like Liara returning, then you should be OK with any "quantum state" squadmate returning.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on May 20, 2021 19:59:35 GMT
It’s quite obvious that if they want to continue in some sort of way from ME3 and the Reapers War, they have to pick a kind of import state, to work on. The endings lead to completely different scenarios. Based on this perspective, anything is theorically possible, even Shepard returning. In practice though, expecially if they want to ‘fuse’ the two settings, they’ll likely go for a huge time skip, which would leave Liara and Grunt as the only characters possibly alive in NME. And I wouldn’t bet on Grunt returning (even if I’d love to see him as a millenary Krogan).
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t4rget
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t4rget
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Post by t4rget on May 20, 2021 20:48:01 GMT
Also, it is unlikely that BioWare would add the option to kill Liara in ME3 if they are already planning to bring her back for a post-ME3 game But it is possible. And if you bring her back, that means you can get anyone back. Saying player's choices matter is different than saying all players choices are viable for continuation There we go. Someone understands. In a CYOA game, some options end earlier than others. Which is why there is no continuation for a dead Shepard and, if you're OK with a ME3 with Shepard alive, you should be OK with a ME4 with Shepard alive. And if you're OK with a "quantum state" squadmate like Liara returning, then you should be OK with any "quantum state" squadmate returning. Developers do what they want. The chances of killing Liara are very slim and can be done only in ME3. I'm pretty much sure their statistic reflects this. Given the importance of Liara in the trilogy it makes sense to bring her back. It is the "how she is brought back" that really picks my attention. After all Bioware killed and resurrected Shepard to make him/her wear a Cerberus uniform.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 22:01:14 GMT
Saying player's choices matter is different than saying all players choices are viable for continuation There we go. Someone understands. In a CYOA game, some options end earlier than others. Which is why there is no continuation for a dead Shepard and, if you're OK with a ME3 with Shepard alive, you should be OK with a ME4 with Shepard alive. And if you're OK with a "quantum state" squadmate like Liara returning, then you should be OK with any "quantum state" squadmate returning. If I had to bet between these two as most likely to happen: ignoring only low EMS to not have to deal with the galactic destruction vs ignoring every endings but highest EMS possible Destroy that wasn't even achievable at release without cheating or multiplayer. I wouldn't pick the second one. Technically, they can even have Liara survive Harbringer's beam spam. She's a biotic and there was a convenient Mako explosion at the same time as the beam hits her. That's less (space) magic then what was used to have Leliana in DA2/DAI after you killed her in DAO. And you can set Leliana's state to dead in the DAO tapestry (she even talks about her murder in DAI ).
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2021 22:58:12 GMT
Developers do what they want. The chances of killing Liara are very slim and can be done only in ME3. I'm pretty much sure their statistic reflects this. Given the importance of Liara in the trilogy it makes sense to bring her back. It is the "how she is brought back" that really picks my attention. After all Bioware killed and resurrected Shepard to make him/her wear a Cerberus uniform. According to Bioware and the state of Liara regardless, "quantum state" is "quantum state". Miranda and Jacob had less than a 9% chance of death, according to the ME2 infomatic and even Jack had a ~20% because of the ship upgrades and player neglect. Garrus and Tali had a ~10+ percent chance of dying, higher than either Jacob or Miranda, yet they both returned for ME3. So "chance" is irrelevant. Even characters that were almost certain to survive, did not return as squadmates. I assure you, Bioware is not resurrecting Liara in a "Lazarus Project" way. She just survived. If I had to bet between these two as most likely to happen: ignoring only low EMS to not have to deal with the galactic destruction vs ignoring every endings but highest EMS possible Destroy that wasn't even achievable at release without cheating or multiplayer. I wouldn't pick the second one. I would. Technically, they can even have Liara survive Harbringer's beam spam That's exactly what happens.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on May 20, 2021 23:17:25 GMT
Technically, they can even have Liara survive Harbringer's beam spam That's exactly what happens. Another person who believe Harbringer's beam spam happens in every endings.
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