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Post by Guardian on May 1, 2018 20:04:45 GMT
Well for me: I HATED only having X number of active skills. It's immersion-breaking (why do I have to forget one skill to learn another?) and renders leveling up past a certain point useless. Why bother to learn more skills when you'll just have to discard something else you already know? Funny, how tabletop RPGs have been moving away from Vancian magic while cRPGs are embracing it so much even warriors and rogues have it now. As noted before "Barrier" was just another word for 'Healing" and was even more vital than healing was in previous games. Heck I managed to complete Act 1 of DA2 with no healers AND got the achievement for no knockouts for an entire act! Back in my day, we only got one or two level 9 spells, and that was good enough for us! Now get off my lawn, you darn kids! *shakes fist*
No, you're right Iakus - as someone that's been running D&D for 30 years (jeez I'm old.... @.@) I really do like how 5th handles it. Vanacian casting was good....but this system is far superior. You're right - it doesn't make any sense why you have to forget a skill to learn another.
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Post by jaerick243 on May 1, 2018 23:14:38 GMT
I just thought of another thing I would love to have. A true tal-vashoth companion. Preferably a runaway saarebas or rogue, since we have had two warrior companions who were followers of the Qun already. so a renegade might be a welcome sight.
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Post by midnight tea on May 2, 2018 0:22:24 GMT
Back in my day, we only got one or two level 9 spells, and that was good enough for us! Now get off my lawn, you darn kids! *shakes fist*
No, you're right Iakus - as someone that's been running D&D for 30 years (jeez I'm old.... @.@) I really do like how 5th handles it. Vanacian casting was good....but this system is far superior. You're right - it doesn't make any sense why you have to forget a skill to learn another. It doesn't make sense not to use staff as a cane or a 2H weapon when the occasion calls for it. It also doesn't make sense that I can have 10 heavy armor sets and a whole alchemy lab in my little travel backpack somehow. Heck, respec doesn't make sense. How can one totally unlearn and then relearn things, not just not use them? What is this 'skill point' thing to remember a specific skill and where can I buy them IRL? Many things in gameplay or combat don't make sense from logical or narrative perspective, so focusing on losing a skill to use another seems awfully nitpickish.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on May 2, 2018 10:27:42 GMT
I just thought of another thing I would love to have. A true tal-vashoth companion. Preferably a runaway saarebas or rogue, since we have had two warrior companions who were followers of the Qun already. so a renegade might be a welcome sight. I think this is a very good idea - we've had Sten who's completely loyal to the Qun no matter what happens, and Bull who can go either way depending on player behaviour, and Inquisitor Adaar to represent those born outside the Qun altogether. The only thing we're missing is someone who was born into the Qun and has already rebelled when we meet them - and a forer Saarebas would certainly have a damn good reason.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 20:36:46 GMT
I just thought of another thing I would love to have. A true tal-vashoth companion. Preferably a runaway saarebas or rogue, since we have had two warrior companions who were followers of the Qun already. so a renegade might be a welcome sight. I think this is a very good idea - we've had Sten who's completely loyal to the Qun no matter what happens, and Bull who can go either way depending on player behaviour, and Inquisitor Adaar to represent those born outside the Qun altogether. The only thing we're missing is someone who was born into the Qun and has already rebelled when we meet them - and a forer Saarebas would certainly have a damn good reason. This is a great idea. I would love this.
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Post by Iakus on May 3, 2018 15:20:30 GMT
Many things in gameplay or combat don't make sense from logical or narrative perspective, so focusing on losing a skill to use another seems awfully nitpickish. It's also not fun.
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Post by midnight tea on May 3, 2018 18:46:35 GMT
It's also not fun for me, personally. Fixed it for you.
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Post by vertigomez on May 4, 2018 1:51:41 GMT
I just thought of another thing I would love to have. A true tal-vashoth companion. Preferably a runaway saarebas or rogue, since we have had two warrior companions who were followers of the Qun already. so a renegade might be a welcome sight. I think this is a very good idea - we've had Sten who's completely loyal to the Qun no matter what happens, and Bull who can go either way depending on player behaviour, and Inquisitor Adaar to represent those born outside the Qun altogether. The only thing we're missing is someone who was born into the Qun and has already rebelled when we meet them - and a forer Saarebas would certainly have a damn good reason. Shokrakar for DA4!
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Post by jaerick243 on May 4, 2018 2:06:27 GMT
I think this is a very good idea - we've had Sten who's completely loyal to the Qun no matter what happens, and Bull who can go either way depending on player behaviour, and Inquisitor Adaar to represent those born outside the Qun altogether. The only thing we're missing is someone who was born into the Qun and has already rebelled when we meet them - and a forer Saarebas would certainly have a damn good reason. Shokrakar for DA4! I would be cool with that. Maybe Shokrakar is a rogue? Mage? Who knows?
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2018 15:49:07 GMT
It's also not fun for me, personally. Fixed it for you. Not fun for me. Not fun for a lot of others either. Combat in DAI was its worst feature. Among the other details already mentioned (lack of healing or tactical menu), limiting the number of active powers so much killed my sense of progression. By the time I hit the mid-teens and I max out my active powers, I'm left to wonder why am I still getting skill points? I'd have to "forget" what I've already learned to pick up anything else. Maybe there's a passive skill or two I could pick up because "Why not?" but there's no point in picking up anything that's genuinely new.
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Post by themikefest on May 4, 2018 16:36:58 GMT
I like the combat in dai.
The lack of healing didn't bother me since I could craft a weapon with heal on kill.
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Post by luketrevelyan on May 4, 2018 16:50:30 GMT
Not fun for me. Not fun for a lot of others either. Combat in DAI was its worst feature. Among the other details already mentioned (lack of healing or tactical menu), limiting the number of active powers so much killed my sense of progression. By the time I hit the mid-teens and I max out my active powers, I'm left to wonder why am I still getting skill points? I'd have to "forget" what I've already learned to pick up anything else. Maybe there's a passive skill or two I could pick up because "Why not?" but there's no point in picking up anything that's genuinely new. Plus the focus abilities were frustrating to use because they occupied one of the 8 slots and were only useful once in a blue moon. My first PT was as an archer and that was mostly ok, but playing as a mage was a lousy experience. It just felt like with DAI they needlessly redesigned too many things that didn't even have significant problems in their previous games. I'm hoping at least some of this was adjusting to Frostbite though.
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Post by Phantom on May 4, 2018 17:26:25 GMT
What I am going to say is more of a pipe dream than anything, Remember Shale from DAO, having her return as a human/dwarf hybrid due to a Tervinter Mage. having this version Shale will be slightly taller than your average dwarf, clocking in about 5'0" to 5'4" with some slight dwarven facial features with long thick pretty black hair, pale skin and pretty blue eyes.
With Shale, She becomes a Grey Warden and searches for The Warden. If The Warden returns as a PC, I prefer the Silent PC with him and if Warden and This version of Shale, having the same odd ball friendship with each other and possible romance.
Of course I would have Sandal remind and tearfully reports to the Warden and the player. I do wonder how many players would rage if he dies.
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Post by midnight tea on May 4, 2018 17:32:07 GMT
Not fun for me. Not fun for a lot of others either. Combat in DAI was its worst feature. Among the other details already mentioned (lack of healing or tactical menu), limiting the number of active powers so much killed my sense of progression. By the time I hit the mid-teens and I max out my active powers, I'm left to wonder why am I still getting skill points? I'd have to "forget" what I've already learned to pick up anything else. Maybe there's a passive skill or two I could pick up because "Why not?" but there's no point in picking up anything that's genuinely new. The discussion was about combat system feature in general, not specifically about DAI. And the fact that DAI's combat system wasn't perfect, be it through design choice or limitations stemming from change of engine or else, doesn't mean that it can't be improved or that way to improvement lays in increasing the number of skill slots - you yourself point out other problems you have with it, thus undermining your own argument. Nevermind a number of different games that have a very limited number of skills and are praised to high heavens for their combat - like Dragon's Dogma, with merely 6 skills (3 per equipped weapon) that, btw, can't be changed any time you're out of combat, but at only at specific respec locations. Also - it's simply a different way to progress, not 'lack of progression'. The fact that you can't squeeze everything on your skill bar doesn't mean that unlocking skills at certain point is a wasted effort - it just means that you have to be more judicious when crafting a build, or strategize combat prior to any encounter or content that may need it, which hey - is fairly realistic. Probably more realistic than actually going everywhere with full arsenal. And you don't 'forget' a skill (unless you respec) - you just don't use it. Sheesh.
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2018 18:03:34 GMT
Not fun for me. Not fun for a lot of others either. Combat in DAI was its worst feature. Among the other details already mentioned (lack of healing or tactical menu), limiting the number of active powers so much killed my sense of progression. By the time I hit the mid-teens and I max out my active powers, I'm left to wonder why am I still getting skill points? I'd have to "forget" what I've already learned to pick up anything else. Maybe there's a passive skill or two I could pick up because "Why not?" but there's no point in picking up anything that's genuinely new. The discussion was about combat system feature in general, not specifically about DAI. And the fact that DAI's combat system wasn't perfect, be it through design choice or limitations stemming from change of engine or else, doesn't mean that it can't be improved or that way to improvement lays in increasing the number of skill slots - you yourself point out other problems you have with it, thus undermining your own argument. Nevermind a number of different games that have a very limited number of skills and are praised to high heavens for their combat - like Dragon's Dogma, with merely 6 skills (3 per equipped weapon) that, btw, can't be changed any time you're out of combat, but at only at specific respec locations. The fact that combat has several problems does not undermine the argument that any given one of them is a problem. I can have a problem with multiple features at once. I have never played Dragon's Dogma. But you know what? I don't think I'd want to. I don't want to play a one-trick pony. Yeah, that's another thing I don't like: crippling overspecialization. And no, this isn't "fairly realistic" it's freaking idiotic. Powerful, experienced characters should know a myriad of tricks picked up over a long history of fighting and adventure. And if I can't access an ability I know because it's not in the active ability bar, then it might as well be "forgotten" Just like a Vancian wizard's spell. Sheesh.
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Post by midnight tea on May 4, 2018 18:44:25 GMT
The fact that combat has several problems does not undermine the argument that any given one of them is a problem. I can have a problem with multiple features at once.00 Not when we're specifically discussing one feature and you're veering off course, as if you didn't have much of an argument against the very thing that you had biggest issue with. So you admit that you don't know anything about it and yet deem it 'one-trick pony'? Classy. It's no more idiotic than the idea that powerful characters go on a battlefield to throw everything they have and a kitchen sink at the enemy. That's just a waste of resources and time. One doesn't throw fire spells at fire-resistant opponent, for example. One doesn't use that many skills that don't synergize well with others. And why would I use 5 sustained or costly skills when I only have so stamina/mana to spare on one or two at best? In fact, as far as I can tell, that was the major thing apparent with combat featuring a long skill bar - ultimately most people, no matter how good, usually stick to a small-ish, select pool of skills. It's not just anecdotal evidence - it's fairly easy to track skill usage in games these days. Honestly, at this point the thing that baffles me the most is why can't you just accept that it's a different combat style that has as many fans as your preferred way of playing. Instead it's yet another thing that I see you deeming as stupid just because YOU don't like or understand it.
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2018 18:56:04 GMT
Not when we're specifically discussing one feature and you're veering off course, as if you didn't have much of an argument against the very thing that you had biggest issue with. This is a "wish list" thread is it not? a wish list is expected to have multiple things on it, I can list any number of things I liked and didn't like in previous games, and they don't invalidate each other. I said several things bothered me about DAI's combat. And that a couple of them have been mentioned before. This is one more. So you admit that you don't know anything about it and yet deem it 'one-trick pony'? Classy. [/quote] It certainly what it sounds like. It's what I felt like in DAI. But when I use cold spells, do those fire spells just go away? What if I get jumped by a rage demon while I'm fighting off terror demons? How about if my tank goes down and my other warrior who HAS TAUNTS TRAINED BUT NOT ACTIVE suddenly has to take over? It's not about "throwing the kitchen sink" at an enemy. It's about having access to abilities that I trained to have. Citation needed. I can say the same about you. Why can't you accept that not everyone is happy with YOUR preferred way of playing? Why am I not allowed to say I preferred previous forms of combat? That I think "streamlining" has been taken way too far?
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Post by jaerick243 on May 4, 2018 19:51:31 GMT
Iakus: The problem is that even if you have access to those abilities, Inquisition just is not built that way. Without some way to regen mana/stamina mega-quick, you are better off using small amounts of abilities at a time, and adjusting ahead of time. OR, you know, focus on using warriors and rogues who do not use magic.
Inquisition: warrior-tank, Rogue-DPS, Mage-support/off-DPS.
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2018 20:32:59 GMT
Iakus: The problem is that even if you have access to those abilities, Inquisition just is not built that way. Without some way to regen mana/stamina mega-quick, you are better off using small amounts of abilities at a time, and adjusting ahead of time. OR, you know, focus on using warriors and rogues who do not use magic. Inquisition: warrior-tank, Rogue-DPS, Mage-support/off-DPS. I thought the goal was to move away from trinity play?
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Post by themikefest on May 4, 2018 20:33:31 GMT
I like to make my female mage look like Broom Hilda Or like the Wicked Witch of the West in the movie Wizard of Oz. I like the ability where the mage doesn't have to carry a staff to perform any spell I like the shield to have a smiley face on it I like the hairstyles that are seen for the companions be available for the player to choose when customizing their character.
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Post by midnight tea on May 4, 2018 20:34:53 GMT
This is a "wish list" thread is it not? a wish list is expected to have multiple things on it, I can list any number of things I liked and didn't like in previous games, and they don't invalidate each other. I said several things bothered me about DAI's combat. And that a couple of them have been mentioned before. This is one more. We were discussing a specific feature at that specific moment on the thread, not just listing stuff we like/dislike. Still classy! If the enemy swarms or hits hard enough that your tank goes down then your warrior ain't going to last much longer. It doesn't matter much that a character can taunt if they're not geared to take the heat. And you still have your skills - you can switch them any time you're outside of combat (in DAI at least). Limited ability slots are about assessing what's most useful prior to encounter or a trek in specific region where we meet specific enemies or obstacles, or experimenting what works best. They payoff of this, from what I've seen, are usually more varied builds and a more focused, faster strike. And I say this as someone who generally likes versatility. I usually prefer the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none approach, yet over the years I simply grew a preference to more min-maxy playstyle, rather than watering things down for everybody in the group. Personally, I just find it more effective, even in a situation where I get pounced by rage demon when I'm dealing with terrors, because a well-tailored group will deal with it with little problem - or I retreat and come back with proper strat for swift retribution. Of course - how about our resident Bioware dev responsible for combat design and likely knowing more about it than most of us? If it were up to me the ability bar would have even less slots but with greater customization. There are a few a reasons for limited slots: 1) to get you to make gameplay choices about which abilities are best loaded for a certain area (I recognize not everyone puts that much effort in to combat but that's fine) 2) promote variation for interesting 'builds' 3) most people aren't really able to think about using that many abilities at all times and frequently just repeat the same 3 or 4. Typically, games that allow as many abilities on the bar as you want have a lot of fire and forget abilities such as long duration buffs or modals.The action bar thing is a tricky one. If we exclude for a moment the 'how do console players use this' argument, one of the reason we give limited options is to promote player choice and reduce cognitive load. For the majority of all use cases, even if you had 100 abilities on your bar you would only be able to really use a few of them except for one-off situations (I need Tranquilizing Shot for this one boss and then never again). On top of this, having that many abilities means you'll have a lot more watered down skills like modals/toggles or minimal buffs (+10% fire resist) to try to fill out your ability selection.
That said, I recognize there are problems the other way as well. Having only 4 slots for example (as DAIMP had) causes people to find what works and never experiment. Additionally, in the DAI system all the skills you HAD to buy due to the way the tree was made were really frustrating as they served no purpose. SO, where does one go with that ideology? Well, if it were me ( ) I'd probably revisit the abilities at their root and ensure that whatever the ability limit (or lack of) is, the ability selection is built around that. For example, an ability like Dispel in DAI I don't think works for a limited pool set up because it is only really used for one-off situations. What one might do instead is put the dispel effect in to an upgrade for something with more general use or have more enemies that have reasons to dispel so the Player has to actually decide between say Barrier and Dispel instead of it being a no brainer. Kindly stop projecting and go check my previous comments instead of imagining things I didn't say. All I argued is that it's as valid and fun way of playing for a lot of people, not that it's superior, because the other thing is 'idiotic' and stuff (or because of being nitpickish about the dissonance between gameplay and story, when the other thing or other aspects of gameplay aren't any better in that regard and yet they're not as much of a problem somehow - which was the first thing I've had issue with and pointed it out).
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2018 20:56:57 GMT
This is a "wish list" thread is it not? a wish list is expected to have multiple things on it, I can list any number of things I liked and didn't like in previous games, and they don't invalidate each other. I said several things bothered me about DAI's combat. And that a couple of them have been mentioned before. This is one more. We were discussing a specific feature at that specific moment on the thread, not just listing stuff we like/dislike. And then you started crawling up my *ss over this one thing. If I can't access them, I might as well not have them. And I don't like having to play Groundhog Day to find out how I should spec my Inquisitor to face a particular foe. Or decide who I need to bench because I build this mage or that rogue "wrong" for a particular challenge. Being forced to min-max a game sucks. Well, it's rather discouraging to see the mentality of players being so readily dismissed ("most people aren't really able to think about using that many abilities at all times and frequently just repeat the same 3 or 4."? Guess I've been doing it wrong all this time, because I'd use different abilities based on what exactly I was fighting!) But I notice you pretty much ignored half the second post: Personally, I don't think this goes far enough. I'd say that the ability limit should be raised to ten minimum. I'd feel more comfortable with twelve, or even more. Especially if one or more slot has to be set aside for Limit break powers. Excuse me, but who started this debate by doing a TFTY post? I'm not the triggered one here.I just expressed an opinion and you jumped down my throat, or some orifice or other...[/quote][/quote]
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Post by jaerick243 on May 4, 2018 21:27:32 GMT
Iakus: The problem is that even if you have access to those abilities, Inquisition just is not built that way. Without some way to regen mana/stamina mega-quick, you are better off using small amounts of abilities at a time, and adjusting ahead of time. OR, you know, focus on using warriors and rogues who do not use magic. Inquisition: warrior-tank, Rogue-DPS, Mage-support/off-DPS. I thought the goal was to move away from trinity play? Those are just the better skillsets for those classes in Inquisition, not what the classes have to be (except rogues, who are pretty much exclusively DPS). But it is a good example. When you use your abilities as a warrior for guard generation, it uses up a limited amount of resources (stamina, in this case) to use it. Rift mages have good mana regen, but most of it is used up to keep weakened on the enemies to continually regen that mana, and there are not many ways to generate more mana/stamina outside of regen, since willpower is no longer adding more to those resources, if I am not mistaken. The point is, it is not so much about not having enough abilities, but more about having enough mana/stamina to use the abilities you have.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on May 4, 2018 21:57:59 GMT
Being forced to min-max a game sucks. Just like for some others different combat systems in which we're forced to do other things suck no less. But we can't have everything we like at all times, can we? Yes, because we don't ever play Groundhog Day in games where we have access to way more skills, right? No, it's always winning! It's not like many of those abilities we have is just too weak to make much of a significant difference or we used all the wrong ones, wasting time and resources in the process or turning the whole fight into an annoying slog. Nope. I specifically pasted the whole comment to both avoid accusation of cherry-picking and show that liking or advocating for a certain playstyle doesn't mean one ain't aware of its shortcomings, or shortcomings specifically of DAI combat system. It's also interesting that somehow you find some sort of 'gotcha' moment in a part of comment that ain't really advocating for more skill slots (merely recognizing that barely 4 in MP may have been too little), only for smarter ability or ability tree design, which is something I can totally get behind. I wouldn't mind an additional slot or two - even if they're slots just for toggles or passives or ultimates/limit breaks/whatevs. That still makes for a compact, swift combat style. I am however more of a mind that instead of extending slot numbers, we should move towards combos/synergies, primers/detonators and additional combat mechanics: dodge, block, bash, climb, modify ability with charge time and so on. That in itself multiplies the amount of stuff we can do while keeping the fight brisk. Ah yes, my harsh TFTY in which I do something so outrageously egregious as... merely pointing out that something is just a matter of your personal preference. It wasn't even something particularly sarcastic or contentious and if you can't handle that, I don't think you can make any claims about someone else's mood or handling of particular exchange. Never mind that you were the one that butted into a response to somebody else when I was addressing a specific thing and were willing to continue responding to me. And now apparently I'm the one who's triggered and crawling up places Again - kindly stop projecting.
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on May 4, 2018 22:17:31 GMT
The thing is, if you have extra ability slots, you can just...not use them. But if you are limited, you can't go the other way.
That's why people get upset about it. Were people really clamoring for ability slots to be removed because they personally didn't use them all and only X% of people did? I suppose then you would also have a good case for LGBT romances to be removed, because only X% of people pursue those. No one is forcing those optional features on you, but they should exist for people who want to pursue them. Variability is one of the biggest strengths of RPGs. Closing games off too much destroys that.
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