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8885
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7,210
river82
4,946
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 5:45:36 GMT
I'm perfectly okay with beautiful female characters. In fact, video games are supposed to be beautiful, it's a sign of graphical quality. Of course, beauty shouldn't be the only thing about the character. I'm okay with a feminine knight who can be romanced by either men or women (note that it's not the same thing as bisexuality), but there must be more to her character than that. She needs a rich, developed back story, interests that bring out aspects of her personality, and ability to play off the other characters. I'm confused about this part of your post. Can you clarify? For the purposes of this example let's call this fictional feminine knight ... Bob. Keeping in mind that each playthrough is in affect its own little world, like the multiple universe theory where we (as people) are different in each universe. This is because events play out differently in each playthrough and therefore cannot be said to be the same world. So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)?
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Apr 27, 2024 16:48:44 GMT
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Sept 23, 2016 22:09:07 GMT
September 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Vall on Mar 18, 2018 8:13:14 GMT
So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)? Yes, the character would still be bisexual because it's still the same character. They would just be an invisible bi, much like Suvi is invisible lesbian, because if you play Scott she never really indicates being lesbian (unlike say flirting with Gil as Sara). Or even Anders if you play as femHawke, though for him the subtext is there, it just isn't explicitly stated like it is with mHawke. Suvi is the better example. So, if they are still the same character and not 2 characters that join you depending on your characters gender, yes, they are bisexual despite not really expressing it.
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Apr 28, 2024 21:32:43 GMT
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August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2018 8:31:15 GMT
So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)? Yes, the character would still be bisexual because it's still the same character. They would just be an invisible bi, much like Suvi is invisible lesbian, because if you play Scott she never really indicates being lesbian (unlike say flirting with Gil as Sara). Or even Anders if you play as femHawke, though for him the subtext is there, it just isn't explicitly stated like it is with mHawke. Suvi is the better example. So, if they are still the same character and not 2 characters that join you depending on your characters gender, yes, they are bisexual despite not really expressing it. I agree that just because they don’t talk about being attracted to the sex other than what you are playing as doesn’t mean they aren’t, however that doesn’t necessarily mean they are bisexual since there are other sexual orientations that can be attracted to both sexes like asexual, demisexual, pansexual, etc. That’s part of why I was asking since I didn’t know if they meant that, the fluid sexuality thing like river guessed, or something else.
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Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,375
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 18, 2018 8:37:51 GMT
Since in real life someone being attracted to and getting into a relationship with an individual of one gender does not mean that they aren't attracted to other genders, regardless of whether they mention it, I don't see why I should think fictional characters are any different. If a LI can be attracted to both a female and male character then clearly they can be attracted to both men and women.
Assuming that a characters sexuality is completely different, that who they are changes, depending on which gender you pick just because they don't talk about all their exes or haven't yet dated someone of every gender they're attracted to seems bizarre to me.
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Apr 27, 2024 16:48:44 GMT
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Sept 23, 2016 22:09:07 GMT
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vall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Vall on Mar 18, 2018 8:42:13 GMT
Yes, the character would still be bisexual because it's still the same character. They would just be an invisible bi, much like Suvi is invisible lesbian, because if you play Scott she never really indicates being lesbian (unlike say flirting with Gil as Sara). Or even Anders if you play as femHawke, though for him the subtext is there, it just isn't explicitly stated like it is with mHawke. Suvi is the better example. So, if they are still the same character and not 2 characters that join you depending on your characters gender, yes, they are bisexual despite not really expressing it. I agree that just because they don’t talk about being attracted to the sex other than what you are playing as doesn’t mean they aren’t, however that doesn’t necessarily mean they are bisexual since there are other sexual orientations that can be attracted to both sexes like asexual, demisexual, pansexual, etc. That’s part of why I was asking since I didn’t know if they meant that, the fluid sexuality thing like river guessed, or something else. Yeah, I thought of those as well, but since they specifically mentioned bisexuality I just ran with it. And to be perfectly honest, I don't know enough about those sexualities to feel comfortable being the first to bring them up in the given scenario. Something to look into later. And uhhh...I may have not noticed that the person I was quoting wasn't the same as the person who asked the question
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 8:50:46 GMT
So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)? Yes, the character would still be bisexual because it's still the same character. They would just be an invisible bi, much like Suvi is invisible lesbian, because if you play Scott she never really indicates being lesbian (unlike say flirting with Gil as Sara). Or even Anders if you play as femHawke, though for him the subtext is there, it just isn't explicitly stated like it is with mHawke. Suvi is the better example. So, if they are still the same character and not 2 characters that join you depending on your characters gender, yes, they are bisexual despite not really expressing it. I disagree. It would be a different version of a character, but it wouldn't be the same character. You in another universe would be a different version of you, but it wouldn't be you (if me in another universe committed murder does that mean I am a murderer?) My Shepard or Hawke wouldn't be the same as your Shepard or Hawke. If my Shepard is a psychopath does that mean all Spepards are psychopaths? Because of this there may not be enough information present to say they are invisible bi or not. There could be, but there doesn't have to be.
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 9:13:41 GMT
There is an interesting thought ... thingy going around about infinite versions of you inhabiting infinite universes. The thought goes like this. Yesterday you decided to put on some clothing (hopefully!), in another universe there is another you that is exactly the same except they chose a different colour to wear. In another universe you decided to wear your hair differently. In another universe you went without shoes.
For every choice you made in your life there's another you in another universe that made a different choice. Possibly many different choices. An infinite variety of you.
What I`m saying is that playthroughs in Dragon Age are similar. In one playthrough a character makes one decision, in another playthrough they make another. These 2 characters would be different versions of the same character inhabiting different universes. Whether these characters are bisexual who just made different choices, or whether they are attracted to different genders, more information is needed to determine.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Mar 18, 2018 9:30:15 GMT
For the purposes of this example let's call this fictional feminine knight ... Bob. I can't be the only one imagining this hypothetical "Bob" being voiced by Gabrielle Glaister, right?
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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
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8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Mar 18, 2018 11:02:22 GMT
Since in real life someone being attracted to and getting into a relationship with an individual of one gender does not mean that they aren't attracted to other genders, regardless of whether they mention it, I don't see why I should think fictional characters are any different. If a LI can be attracted to both a female and male character then clearly they can be attracted to both men and women. Assuming that a characters sexuality is completely different, that who they are changes, depending on which gender you pick just because they don't talk about all their exes or haven't yet dated someone of every gender they're attracted to seems bizarre to me. Scout Harding and Leliana are good examples of this. In the game, Scout Harding's bisexuality is never overtly stated unless you flirt with her with either gender. However we can gather several clues that she is attracted to men, from her playful interaction with Bram Kennic in JoH and her depiction in Varric's book where it seems they flirted over drinks. Her attraction to men also means she can still have an innocent crush on Dorian, even though his orientation isn't compatible, nor a secret. (Besides, she's not exactly wrong that he's "pretty", is she?) Leliana seems the converse in that respect, as we are repeatedly shown that most of her prior relationships and close friendship have been with women. That doesn't mean she's not bisexual or attracted to men, only that she seems to lean more towards women in general. Her attraction towards men seems to only come up when discussing her past as a bard, along with a few comments directed towards male Wardens, Alistair, Zevran and Cullen. While I think maybe the games could make character bisexuality a little more overt (if only to avoid accusations of them being playersexual), the games depicting a few bisexual characters as being more attracted to one gender over the other is fairly realistic. Sexuality exists on a spectrum and everyone has their own particularly preferences (even if only on a subconscious level) about what they look for in a partner.
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Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,375
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 18, 2018 11:42:01 GMT
Yes, the character would still be bisexual because it's still the same character. They would just be an invisible bi, much like Suvi is invisible lesbian, because if you play Scott she never really indicates being lesbian (unlike say flirting with Gil as Sara). Or even Anders if you play as femHawke, though for him the subtext is there, it just isn't explicitly stated like it is with mHawke. Suvi is the better example. So, if they are still the same character and not 2 characters that join you depending on your characters gender, yes, they are bisexual despite not really expressing it. I disagree. It would be a different version of a character, but it wouldn't be the same character. You in another universe would be a different version of you, but it wouldn't be you (if me in another universe committed murder does that mean I am a murderer?) My Shepard or Hawke wouldn't be the same as your Shepard or Hawke. If my Shepard is a psychopath does that mean all Spepards are psychopaths? Because of this there may not be enough information present to say they are invisible bi or not. There could be, but there doesn't have to be. This still baffles me. Why would who your pc is affect who the npc is before they meet and are affected by the pc? There are infinate versions of the player character and your choices then affect npcs creating alternate version of them - from the point that your character starts interacting with/affecting them. Not retroactively. eg. Whether you are a mage or not creates alternate versions of Carver pre the start of da2 because it affects whether he was the only muggle amoungst mage siblings or not - effecting how he grew up. Whether you are a mage or not does not change who Varric is when you meet him, because you just met him and have had no effect on his past so why would it? It doesn't change who Fenris is either. Affect how he reacts to you sure, and actions you then take later effect who he becomes. But it does not retroactively change his past or who he is. Fenris's life before he meets you is the same in every reality, it diverges afterwoods. If a character meets the pc as a man and is attracted to them, and in another playthrough meets the pc as a woman and is attracted to them. Why would I assume that the change of gender retroactively rewrote this characters history and identity when they just met and the pc has had no affect on them and their timeline before now? When it's simpler and makes more sense that they are capable of being attracted to men and women? There are multiple realities of dragon age because of who we make our characters and what choices those PCs make - neither of which are likely to affect someones sexual identity (save perhaps for a realisation), and certainly not what it was before they met. There aren't infinite versions of the npcs and infinite outcomes to who they are, only as many versions as our different choices can create. There is no version of Alistair who became a baker. There is no versian of Alistair who was raised by Maric. So stating that a character was straight and always been straight if the player chooses one gender but gay and has always been gay if they choose the other just makes no sense to me. I don't get it, but I suppose I don't have to, You Do You and all that. I'll just return to my corner and assume any character who romances multiple genders is attracted to multiple genders and some of them don't feel the need to chat about it.
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July 2017
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 12:18:20 GMT
This still baffles me. Why would who your pc is affect who the npc is before they meet and are affected by the pc? There are infinate versions of the player character and your choices then affect npcs creating alternate version of them - from the point that your character starts interacting with/affecting them. Not retroactively. eg. Whether you are a mage or not creates alternate versions of Carver pre the start of da2 because it affects whether he was the only muggle amoungst mage siblings or not - effecting how he grew up. Whether you are a mage or not does not change who Varric is when you meet him, because you just met him and have had no effect on his past so why would it? It doesn't change who Fenris is either. Affect how he reacts to you sure, and actions you then take later effect who he becomes. But it does not retroactively change his past or who he is. Fenris's life before he meets you is the same in every reality, it diverges afterwoods. If a character meets the pc as a man and is attracted to them, and in another playthrough meets the pc as a woman and is attracted to them. Why would I assume that the change of gender retroactively rewrote this characters history and identity when they just met and the pc has had no affect on them and their timeline before now? When it's simpler and makes more sense that they are capable of being attracted to men and women? There are multiple realities of dragon age because of who we make our characters and what choices those PCs make - neither of which are likely to affect someones sexual identity (save perhaps for a realisation), and certainly not what it was before they met. There aren't infinite versions of the npcs and infinite outcomes to who they are, only as many versions as our different choices can create. There is no version of Alistair who became a baker. There is no versian of Alistair who was raised by Maric. So stating that a character was straight and always been straight if the player chooses one gender but gay and has always been gay if they choose the other just makes no sense to me. I don't get it, but I suppose I don't have to, You Do You and all that. I'll just return to my corner and assume any character who romances multiple genders is attracted to multiple genders and some of them don't feel the need to chat about it. I’m going to finish this post by bringing it full circle back to the original post. So the question now becomes who’s to say when the split between universes occurred? The obvious answer would be when the player makes the first choice that results in a difference between playthroughs, but that’s not the only option. Because to be perfectly honest all we know is these are different universes, not the extent of the differences. Dragon Age 2, for example. You chose a male character and all of a sudden the universe changed 20 years before the start of the game to give you a sibling of the opposite sex. It’s very possible to write an NPC that’s attracted to only one gender, and that gender is whichever gender the player character is. In this scenario the split between universes would have happened long before you made your first choice as a player. Code an NPC to flirt with characters only of the same gender of the player character and what you have is a game where the universe could have changed before you make your first choice as a player in the actual game. The father of Bob in Universe 2 may have extended foreplay with the mother by half an hour and thus her personality was changed due to different sperm reaching the ovum. The father of Bob in Universe 3 may have cut short foreplay resulting in another personality change and so on. That’s all speculation. All we know for sure is that Bob in Universe 2 chose to be with a female character while Bob in Universe 1 chose to be with a male character. This can be expanded on in game but doesn’t have to be. You can assume that Bob in Universe 2 would respond to a different gendered player in the same manner and continued that relationship, but that would be an assumption. And here we go full circle back to the original post. The original post said that a female character who can be romanced by both male and female characters is not the same as bisexuality. And it isn’t. Because this phenomenon doesn’t have to be explained with a bisexual character and therefore it isn’t the same of bisexuality. It can be, yet doesn’t have to be. But you are perfectly free to assume that all such characters are bisexual. Though just because you assume this doesn't mean there aren't other explanations.
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 12:49:17 GMT
I should point out that I don’t have a good recollection of DA2. It was a long time ago. So I can't really remember the Bethany/Carver thing. But the point is the universe changes in response to your character creation, but not your direct input during the game. And prior to the game actually starting. That’s the important point to be made. *Wasn’t fond of DA2. Can’t bring myself to replay it. Inquisition was better, but Origins is still my fave. EDIT: Oh, an ogre targets a different sibling in the prologue depending on your character creation. What a big bastard
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 13:01:14 GMT
Weirdly enough: in KOTOR, ME1, Origins, and DA:2, a character dies in the prologue. Also in Baldur's Gate (though he wasn't a companion). And in BG2 one of your characters was kidnapped in the prologue. So Bioware went through a phase ... xD
EDIT: In ME2 you die in the prologue, lol. Also I think someone almost died in the prologue in ME3, or maybe that could have been a little later on. My memory's notoriously dodgy sometimes.
EDIT2: I wonder which poor sod is going to cop it in the prologue in Anthem ... EDIT3: Should probably spoiler just incase ... even though they're all old games.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,375
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 18, 2018 13:34:45 GMT
This still baffles me. Why would who your pc is affect who the npc is before they meet and are affected by the pc? There are infinate versions of the player character and your choices then affect npcs creating alternate version of them - from the point that your character starts interacting with/affecting them. Not retroactively. eg. Whether you are a mage or not creates alternate versions of Carver pre the start of da2 because it affects whether he was the only muggle amoungst mage siblings or not - effecting how he grew up. Whether you are a mage or not does not change who Varric is when you meet him, because you just met him and have had no effect on his past so why would it? It doesn't change who Fenris is either. Affect how he reacts to you sure, and actions you then take later effect who he becomes. But it does not retroactively change his past or who he is. Fenris's life before he meets you is the same in every reality, it diverges afterwoods. If a character meets the pc as a man and is attracted to them, and in another playthrough meets the pc as a woman and is attracted to them. Why would I assume that the change of gender retroactively rewrote this characters history and identity when they just met and the pc has had no affect on them and their timeline before now? When it's simpler and makes more sense that they are capable of being attracted to men and women? There are multiple realities of dragon age because of who we make our characters and what choices those PCs make - neither of which are likely to affect someones sexual identity (save perhaps for a realisation), and certainly not what it was before they met. There aren't infinite versions of the npcs and infinite outcomes to who they are, only as many versions as our different choices can create. There is no version of Alistair who became a baker. There is no versian of Alistair who was raised by Maric. So stating that a character was straight and always been straight if the player chooses one gender but gay and has always been gay if they choose the other just makes no sense to me. I don't get it, but I suppose I don't have to, You Do You and all that. I'll just return to my corner and assume any character who romances multiple genders is attracted to multiple genders and some of them don't feel the need to chat about it. I’m going to finish this post by bringing it full circle back to the original post. So the question now becomes who’s to say when the split between universes occurred? The obvious answer would be when the player makes the first choice that results in a difference between playthroughs, but that’s not the only option. Because to be perfectly honest all we know is these are different universes, not the extent of the differences. Dragon Age 2, for example. You chose a male character and all of a sudden the universe changed 20 years before the start of the game to give you a sibling of the opposite sex. It’s very possible to write an NPC that’s attracted to only one gender, and that gender is whichever gender the player character is. In this scenario the split between universes would have happened long before you made your first choice as a player. Code an NPC to flirt with characters only of the same gender of the player character and what you have is a game where the universe could have changed before you make your first choice as a player in the actual game. The father of Bob in Universe 2 may have extended foreplay with the mother by half an hour and thus her personality was changed due to different sperm reaching the ovum. The father of Bob in Universe 3 may have cut short foreplay resulting in another personality change and so on. That’s all speculation. All we know for sure is that Bob in Universe 2 chose to be with a female character while Bob in Universe 1 chose to be with a male character. This can be expanded on in game but doesn’t have to be. You can assume that Bob in Universe 2 would respond to a different gendered player in the same manner and continued that relationship, but that would be an assumption. And here we go full circle back to the original post. The original post said that a female character who can be romanced by both male and female characters is not the same as bisexuality. And it isn’t. Because this phenomenon doesn’t have to be explained with a bisexual character and therefore it isn’t the same of bisexuality. It can be, yet doesn’t have to be. But you are perfectly free to assume that all such characters are bisexual. Though just because you assume this doesn't mean there aren't other explanations. So putting aside the different sperm example, as that would create a completely different person who wouldn't even look the same, even if the parents still name them bob, and we're only talking about one aspect of a character personality changing not them being replaced with a sibling/alternate child-- The idea is that there are alternate dragon age realities beyond what could possibly be created by the effects of the various pcs identities and choices. Rather than only the realities created by them: As hawkes gender affects the Hawkes back to their birth but only effects other characters from the moment that choice reaches them, which for many is when they meet, but for say, Gamlen, starts when he gets a letter telling him about their birth. Instead there are other divergences based on other things that pc has no effect on, such as the behavior of Bobs parents. The games only show diverging universes as the result of actions taken by the player and differences in the identity of the player character. These are the only canon alternate realities as they are the only ones shown. We can certainly theorise that there are more/others, but these are headcanons. People do usually need explanations of the underlining head canon or theory to understand a statement based on it, hence my confusion. You can also say that my assumption that some one is attracted to multiple genders because there attracted to multiple genders of pc is a headcanon if it's never explicitly stated. I still don't get why someone would favour 'changing sexual identities' over 'multi gender attraction' as a headcanon, as the later is simple, has nothing contradicting it and doesn't require alternate realities not shown to exist to work. But then I suppose if you already have the more alternate realities then shown headcanon then it's no trouble to add. Atleast I'm no longer confused about what your position even is, so thanks for explaining it.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,375
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 18, 2018 13:40:53 GMT
I should point out that I don’t have a good recollection of DA2. It was a long time ago. So I can't really remember the Bethany/Carver thing. But the point is the universe changes in response to your character creation, but not your direct input during the game. And prior to the game actually starting. That’s the important point to be made. *Wasn’t fond of DA2. Can’t bring myself to replay it. Inquisition was better, but Origins is still my fave. EDIT: Oh, an ogre targets a different sibling in the prologue depending on your character creation. What a big bastard I actually mention that choices about hawke changing the game before it started in my prev post, specifically changing characters whose pre da2 pasts were effected by that change as opposed to characters whoses pasts don't change as they're not affected by hawke until the game.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2018 15:41:20 GMT
I'm perfectly okay with beautiful female characters. In fact, video games are supposed to be beautiful, it's a sign of graphical quality. Of course, beauty shouldn't be the only thing about the character. I'm okay with a feminine knight who can be romanced by either men or women (note that it's not the same thing as bisexuality), but there must be more to her character than that. She needs a rich, developed back story, interests that bring out aspects of her personality, and ability to play off the other characters. I'm confused about this part of your post. Can you clarify? Dragon Age 2 had similar ways: Merrill had no attraction to women, only Lady Hawke.
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Scribbles
185
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Apr 28, 2024 21:32:43 GMT
30,247
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2018 18:18:28 GMT
I'm confused about this part of your post. Can you clarify? Dragon Age 2 had similar ways: Merrill had no attraction to women, only Lady Hawke. Incorrect. The devs have stated multiple times that the LIs in DA2, other than Sebastian, are bisexual. David Gaider even used Merrill as the example when discussing the topic. Years later when asked Merrill’s writer said she could be seen as demisexual if the player interprets her in that way, but they do not approve the idea of the characters sexuality changing like you suggest.
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Old Scientist Contrarian
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February 2017
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 18, 2018 19:33:18 GMT
I'm confused about this part of your post. Can you clarify? For the purposes of this example let's call this fictional feminine knight ... Bob. Keeping in mind that each playthrough is in affect its own little world, like the multiple universe theory where we (as people) are different in each universe. This is because events play out differently in each playthrough and therefore cannot be said to be the same world. So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)? Do the writers believe in working like this? My impression is that they don't.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2018 19:45:40 GMT
Dragon Age 2 had similar ways: Merrill had no attraction to women, only Lady Hawke. Incorrect. The devs have stated multiple times that the LIs in DA2, other than Sebastian, are bisexual. David Gaider even used Merrill as the example when discussing the topic. Years later when asked Merrill’s writer said she could be seen as demisexual if the player interprets her in that way, but they do not approve the idea of the characters sexuality changing like you suggest. If that is true, then the devs did a really bad job
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2018 20:01:01 GMT
Incorrect. The devs have stated multiple times that the LIs in DA2, other than Sebastian, are bisexual. David Gaider even used Merrill as the example when discussing the topic. Years later when asked Merrill’s writer said she could be seen as demisexual if the player interprets her in that way, but they do not approve the idea of the characters sexuality changing like you suggest. If that is true, then the devs did a really bad job Why? Not everyone is super open about their sexuality. In each game, we have some who open about it, some who keep it very personal, and everything in between.
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 20:19:07 GMT
For the purposes of this example let's call this fictional feminine knight ... Bob. Keeping in mind that each playthrough is in affect its own little world, like the multiple universe theory where we (as people) are different in each universe. This is because events play out differently in each playthrough and therefore cannot be said to be the same world. So if in one playthrough Bob is romanced by a male player and gives no indication that she's interested in women, but in another playthrough Bob is romanced by a female player and gives no indication that she's interested in men, can one say she's bisexual? Given that at no time she's indicated an interest in both sexes in one world (aka one playthrough)? Do the writers believe in working like this? My impression is that they don't. "writers" are a very diverse group of people. Some are really, really "artsy" and pretentious, others are quite pragmatic. Who can say how some writers do and do not think *shrugs* There was an interview by one writer who set part of herself on fire so she knew how it felt. Most writers don't believe in operating like that but she clearly does so ...
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 20:38:35 GMT
I’m going to finish this post by bringing it full circle back to the original post. So the question now becomes who’s to say when the split between universes occurred? The obvious answer would be when the player makes the first choice that results in a difference between playthroughs, but that’s not the only option. Because to be perfectly honest all we know is these are different universes, not the extent of the differences. Dragon Age 2, for example. You chose a male character and all of a sudden the universe changed 20 years before the start of the game to give you a sibling of the opposite sex. It’s very possible to write an NPC that’s attracted to only one gender, and that gender is whichever gender the player character is. In this scenario the split between universes would have happened long before you made your first choice as a player. Code an NPC to flirt with characters only of the same gender of the player character and what you have is a game where the universe could have changed before you make your first choice as a player in the actual game. The father of Bob in Universe 2 may have extended foreplay with the mother by half an hour and thus her personality was changed due to different sperm reaching the ovum. The father of Bob in Universe 3 may have cut short foreplay resulting in another personality change and so on. That’s all speculation. All we know for sure is that Bob in Universe 2 chose to be with a female character while Bob in Universe 1 chose to be with a male character. This can be expanded on in game but doesn’t have to be. You can assume that Bob in Universe 2 would respond to a different gendered player in the same manner and continued that relationship, but that would be an assumption. And here we go full circle back to the original post. The original post said that a female character who can be romanced by both male and female characters is not the same as bisexuality. And it isn’t. Because this phenomenon doesn’t have to be explained with a bisexual character and therefore it isn’t the same of bisexuality. It can be, yet doesn’t have to be. But you are perfectly free to assume that all such characters are bisexual. Though just because you assume this doesn't mean there aren't other explanations. So putting aside the different sperm example, as that would create a completely different person who wouldn't even look the same, even if the parents still name them bob, and we're only talking about one aspect of a character personality changing not them being replaced with a sibling/alternate child-- The idea is that there are alternate dragon age realities beyond what could possibly be created by the effects of the various pcs identities and choices. Rather than only the realities created by them: As hawkes gender affects the Hawkes back to their birth but only effects other characters from the moment that choice reaches them, which for many is when they meet, but for say, Gamlen, starts when he gets a letter telling him about their birth. Instead there are other divergences based on other things that pc has no effect on, such as the behavior of Bobs parents. The games only show diverging universes as the result of actions taken by the player and differences in the identity of the player character. These are the only canon alternate realities as they are the only ones shown. We can certainly theorise that there are more/others, but these are headcanons. People do usually need explanations of the underlining head canon or theory to understand a statement based on it, hence my confusion. You can also say that my assumption that some one is attracted to multiple genders because there attracted to multiple genders of pc is a headcanon if it's never explicitly stated. I still don't get why someone would favour 'changing sexual identities' over 'multi gender attraction' as a headcanon, as the later is simple, has nothing contradicting it and doesn't require alternate realities not shown to exist to work. But then I suppose if you already have the more alternate realities then shown headcanon then it's no trouble to add. Atleast I'm no longer confused about what your position even is, so thanks for explaining it. How would you tell they didn't look the same? You're making another assumption. And we're not only talking about changing a small portion of a character's personality, we are talking about the reality of different characters inhabiting different universes. And that different universes are different. It would be nice to assume that those universes are different solely because of choices we make in the game, but the reality is they don't have to be. If the developers wanted to, the universe could be vastly different based on your decisions in the character creation screen. If a game universe diverges in the past based on the characters you made in the character creation, then that is the universe diverging because of the choices you made as a player. It's just the universe diverging in the past, and your choice was how you built your character. In Dragon Age 2 your choice in character creation affects the choice the ogre makes in who they're targeting. This isn't a case where characters are affected by the choice of the player, it's an arbitrary choice by the developers to change the game world depending on who your character is. It's quite obvious also. The post was never about choosing alternate realities and the existence of different characters over bisexuality as a headcanon. Rather that the existence of this explanation means that having a character romanceable by male or female PCs is not the same as bisexuality. And it isn't, on the basis that there are other explanations. If there are other causes for characters to have such behaviour, then why would you lump all such cases under bisexuality? Even if that is your preferred headcanon?
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Post by river82 on Mar 18, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
Atleast I'm no longer confused about what your position even is, so thanks for explaining it. Just file it under "River's crazy". You wouldn't be too inaccurate
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2018 23:46:36 GMT
If that is true, then the devs did a really bad job Why? Not everyone is super open about their sexuality. In each game, we have some who open about it, some who keep it very personal, and everything in between. You can't give someone the wrong impression. Merrill showed zero sexual interest in women, this is a fact.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 19, 2018 0:11:47 GMT
Why? Not everyone is super open about their sexuality. In each game, we have some who open about it, some who keep it very personal, and everything in between. You can't give someone the wrong impression. Merrill showed zero sexual interest in women, this is a fact. Sure you can. People don’t have to tell other people who or what they are sexually interested in. Also, she shows no sexual interest in men either so by your logic she is Asexual.
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