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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 16:52:48 GMT
Ready or not, the green is still being forced since no one has a say. As far as Shepard being the chosen one? No. It didn't matter who the organic was as long as an organic chose the green. Polling (nowadays, automated polling) is one very common way in which people are assumed by society to have had a say. Shepard is a leader and the people in general are said to be willing to following him (Miranda in ME2). The catalyst says that it is Shepard who changed the variables - how, perhaps by just taking a lead in accepting EDI or accepting that a relationship could exist between EDI and Joker... change in societal opinions by their being the opinions of strong and capable leadership... not a new concept here... and one that does not necessarily involve "forcing" the population to change their opinions.
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Post by Guts on Apr 5, 2018 21:34:26 GMT
I disliked the ending as well. However, as copper said, there are a few people out there that liked the endings.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 5, 2018 21:50:13 GMT
Polling (nowadays, automated polling) is one very common way in which people are assumed by society to have had a say. Shepard is a leader and the people in general are said to be willing to following him (Miranda in ME2). Maybe so, but would they accept having their dna changed? I wouldn't. I would guess by having the crucible docked with the Citadel. No matter how someone words it, I see the green as being forced no matter if the thing say's the organics are ready.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 22:07:17 GMT
Polling (nowadays, automated polling) is one very common way in which people are assumed by society to have had a say. Shepard is a leader and the people in general are said to be willing to following him (Miranda in ME2). Maybe so, but would they accept having their dna changed? I wouldn't. I would guess by having the crucible docked with the Citadel. No matter how someone words it, I see the green as being forced no matter if the thing say's the organics are ready. ... and you can still do that. It's an alternate interpretation of what the Catalyst was presenting to Shepard. The endings are interpret-able in several different ways on several different levels - symbolic, religious, political, literal. visceral, etc.. As I've said many times, I interpret them in several different ways. If you want to limit yourself to only one, that's your choice to make. The "you" in "you are ready" can just as easily be referring to a plural (i.e. the entire group of organics) as a single (Shepard specifically). Maybe the Catalyst is saying that they (synthetics) did actually try activating the synthesis solution through a Crucible before, but the signal only works if the organics are also ready to accept it. Otherwise, it just fails to register. The reason it "took" this time was that it wasn't forced, but that organics were ready to accept it willingly. (Note: The Catalyst does say Shepard is the first organic to get there... but that doesn't mean that someone from a synthetic species hasn't been that far before).
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Post by themikefest on Apr 5, 2018 22:56:49 GMT
According to Leviathan, the crucible has never been completed in any previous cycle.
Because a machine says the organics are ready doesn't mean they are. It says that because it knows that if Shepard chooses the green, it will survive whereas with the other two, the thing is replaced or destroyed. It butters up the green to survive. The green works in its favor.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 6, 2018 3:36:31 GMT
Maybe the Catalyst is saying that they (synthetics) did actually try activating the synthesis solution through a Crucible before, but the signal only works if the organics are also ready to accept it. Otherwise, it just fails to register. The reason it "took" this time was that it wasn't forced, but that organics were ready to accept it willingly. (Note: The Catalyst does say Shepard is the first organic to get there... but that doesn't mean that someone from a synthetic species hasn't been that far before). This whole thing is flawed. The idea for the Crucible was started by a long dead race that probably came to exist only as a Reaper (that is, they were killed and some hundred thousand-ish of that race where liquefied and became the "blood" of some Reaper). Raise your hand if you believe that said race had any intention of merging synthetics and organics into something techno-organic? If you don't believe that, raise your hand if you think ANY race along the way who contributed to the Crucible wanted to make all organics and synthetics into something techno-organic? I'm sorry, but Synthesis can only be the work of the Reapers. It's their endgame and, well, fuck them. If the Catalyst is saying only Shepard has ever got to that point, it means the Catalyst was involved with its workings. There's no way around that.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 11, 2018 19:58:45 GMT
They can make characters lie when it advances the story or for drama. There is no reason for them to make the Catalyst lie about anything given the entire point of the Reapers are based around this. The entire plot revolves around what the Reapers BELIEVE to be true. That's it. We have no actual proof that what they say is actual truth. Never mind that the whole idea was to stop inconveniencing the Leviathan, not make peace in the galaxy for its own sake. Also, I do not at all believe the Catalyst is incapable of lying to advance its own agenda. Once we're at the Crucible it says whatever is necessary to survive and essentially spouts the same things that came out of Saren's mouth (Control: Reapers live if they're useful; Synthesis: Reapers still live so either they're useful or they wander away - who even knows?). Destroy is the purpose of the Crucible and the Catalyst will persuade Shepard to try other options. And I'm talking EC so I don't really care what happened in the original cut. There is proof. Your dislike of it doesn't negate it's existence. You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, anti vaxxers, flat earthers, etc.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2018 20:06:46 GMT
The entire plot revolves around what the Reapers BELIEVE to be true. That's it. We have no actual proof that what they say is actual truth. Never mind that the whole idea was to stop inconveniencing the Leviathan, not make peace in the galaxy for its own sake. Also, I do not at all believe the Catalyst is incapable of lying to advance its own agenda. Once we're at the Crucible it says whatever is necessary to survive and essentially spouts the same things that came out of Saren's mouth (Control: Reapers live if they're useful; Synthesis: Reapers still live so either they're useful or they wander away - who even knows?). Destroy is the purpose of the Crucible and the Catalyst will persuade Shepard to try other options. And I'm talking EC so I don't really care what happened in the original cut. There is proof. Your dislike of it doesn't negate it's existence. You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, anti vaxxers, flat earthers, etc. There's no proof. Christians claimed Native Americans had no souls - using their Bible as proof - and so slaughtered them without compunction - men, women, and infants alike. The Bible is daily used as proof of whatever people want to say about things they don't like. The Catalyst making a claim IS NOT PROOF. It's the word of an AI with an agenda, just as those Christians will use the Bible to advance their agendas. But, honestly, is this all you even care about? This is a tired argument. There are far more interesting things to discuss and debate. For example: the entire rest of the BioWare forum.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 11, 2018 20:08:35 GMT
They can make characters lie when it advances the story or for drama. There is no reason for them to make the Catalyst lie about anything given the entire point of the Reapers are based around this. The catalyst doesn't lie. I'm firmly convinced that he is honest with shepard. But the Leviathan/Catalyst/Reapers believe a thing is true does not make it true. All that matters is that they acted on what they believe (dmc1001). If you believe that what is shown during the triilogy proves beyond doubt that what the catalyst is saying is the ultimate truth and the word of god, choose synthesis. If not, choose something else (or choose synthesis for other reasons). But you can't PROVE beyond doubt that a synth/organic conflict will ALWAYS arise and that, in the future, that conflict will NECESSARLY lead to organic extinction.You cannot prove something that maybe/probably will happen in the future but has never happened beforeYou can consider it more or less plausible, and that's all. Man, what's your problem btw, tech apolcalypse it's a probable scenario, why do you want it to be the ultimate truth and the word of god? no such thing is this universe be satisfied with the likehood You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, flat earth theorists, anti vaxxers and people who think the holocaust didn't happen as well as countless other small and large facts. There is plenty of data in the game not to mention it being the clear intent of the writers to have it be so. But because you can't see the curving of the Earth or because it snowed in the winter. Then it isn't definitive proof that either are true. You can argue about ultimate truths or the word of god in our universe till your blue in the face. But in a fiction universe created by a person or team of writers there are ultimate truths and their words are the words of god in that universe. Vegeta goes from a genocidal mad man who doesn't care about anything or anyone to a caring and loving father (in his own way) with a grudging respect for Goku because Akira Toriyama says so and his word is the word of god in the Dragon Ball universe because he creates the story. Just like the new transformation for Vegeta and Goku in Super is called Super Sayian Blue even though that is the stupidest name never. Because Akira says that is the name of the transformation and so the ultimate truth and word of god for that fictional universe is laided out and that transformation will now and forever be known as Super Sayian Blue.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 11, 2018 20:10:32 GMT
There is proof. Your dislike of it doesn't negate it's existence. You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, anti vaxxers, flat earthers, etc. There's no proof. Christians claimed Native Americans had no souls - using their Bible as proof - and so slaughtered them without compunction - men, women, and infants alike. The Bible is daily used as proof of whatever people want to say about things they don't like. The Catalyst making a claim IS NOT PROOF. It's the word of an AI with an agenda, just as those Christians will use the Bible to advance their agendas. But, honestly, is this all you even care about? This is a tired argument. There are far more interesting things to discuss and debate. For example: the entire rest of the BioWare forum. And I have laid out proof time and time again. But you and others ignore it time and time again. The irony with your example is you are the one using the bible as proof that NA's lack souls and so they can be killed without problem. While I stand up trying to use fact and reason to show they do have souls and we shouldn't just kill them and take their land.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2018 5:23:28 GMT
There's no proof. Christians claimed Native Americans had no souls - using their Bible as proof - and so slaughtered them without compunction - men, women, and infants alike. The Bible is daily used as proof of whatever people want to say about things they don't like. The Catalyst making a claim IS NOT PROOF. It's the word of an AI with an agenda, just as those Christians will use the Bible to advance their agendas. But, honestly, is this all you even care about? This is a tired argument. There are far more interesting things to discuss and debate. For example: the entire rest of the BioWare forum. And I have laid out proof time and time again. But you and others ignore it time and time again. The irony with your example is you are the one using the bible as proof that NA's lack souls and so they can be killed without problem. While I stand up trying to use fact and reason to show they do have souls and we shouldn't just kill them and take their land. No, you don't provide proof. Ever. You state your opinion and have such an overinflated ego that you believe that constitutes proof. I never made any claims about whether or not the Reapers have souls. What I have said is those motherfuckers need to die for what they did. End of story. I get that you feel different but that's your problem not mine.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 12, 2018 8:35:27 GMT
You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, flat earth theorists, anti vaxxers and people who think the holocaust didn't happen as well as countless other small and large facts. There is plenty of data in the game not to mention it being the clear intent of the writers to have it be so. But because you can't see the curving of the Earth or because it snowed in the winter. Then it isn't definitive proof that either are true. I can agree with the catalyst saying that the synth-organic conflict is inevitable, and I've said before that the peace of rannoch is quite irrelevant in the great scheme of things (even if a believe that the writers goal was to make us doubt about the inevitability of that conflict). But let's say that the catalyst has collected so much evidence about the conflict to make it into a sort of scientific law. Like the climate change stuff. But the catalyst goes further, stating that the conflict will cause extinction of ALL organic life. Tech apocalyps. Now. This is not provable. It has never happened before. Nothing in the game shows the will of the synthetics to annihilate life itself. Climate change exist, no reason to deny it. Are there any proofs about it? Yes. Will it lead to human extinction? Maybe. Or maybe not. Are there any irrefutable definitive proofs about it? Not at all. It's, at best, a plausible scenario. Not a proven one.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 13, 2018 15:26:29 GMT
And I have laid out proof time and time again. But you and others ignore it time and time again. The irony with your example is you are the one using the bible as proof that NA's lack souls and so they can be killed without problem. While I stand up trying to use fact and reason to show they do have souls and we shouldn't just kill them and take their land. No, you don't provide proof. Ever. You state your opinion and have such an overinflated ego that you believe that constitutes proof. I never made any claims about whether or not the Reapers have souls. What I have said is those motherfuckers need to die for what they did. End of story. I get that you feel different but that's your problem not mine. I have pointed out time and time again the slave like conditions of AI in Council space. I have pointed out time and time again the Geth's complete willingness to do what ever it takes to survive including committing near genocide if that is what it takes to keep themselves safe. I have pointed out time and time again the hatred and fear of synthetic life that organic life has. To the point it prompted the Quarians to start a war that nearly wiped them out then literally every major power positioning tons of troops at every relay in an effort to stop any potential attack. The obsession over regaining control of anything they lost and their servants or wiping them out for their betrayal more then evident when the Quarians launch a full scale invasion against the Geth the moment they think they are capable of taking them on. That the Geth despite being the short bus version of Synthetic life due to the limitations of their inter-dependency was still capable in a 2 year time frame build up a massive fleet on par if not exceeding with any single Organic race. And when the Reaper upgrade is forcibly distributed by the Reapers and possibly later by Legion which upgrades the Geth from the short bus synthetic life to fully realized synthetic life without crippling dependency on each other to understand that 1+1=2. That existing fleet absolutely wrecks the ever loving hell out of the Quarians. And if given more time would have been capable of building an even larger fleet and would have been able to take out each race one by one if they so felt threatened enough. Not just in pure arms but in other methods like dropping asteroids on planets wiping out all life on it because the Geth or any synthetic life doesn't need a garden world to survive. This was shown as it was said that due to the war Rannoch was rendered almost uninhabitable due to the toxic and radioactive weapons used in the Morning War. But the Geth lived there no problem choosing to willingly rather then any real need to move into space stations and live there. All of this completely justifies the fear that synthetic life will surpass and potentially wipe out organic life. Which in turn will create aggressive movements and attempts to restrain and restrict synthetic life. As was shown with Javik and the Protheans as well as the heavy restrictions of AI research/ban on it as well as Quarians aggressive actions to prevent the Geth from evolving any further out of their control. This activity also justifies aggressive actions on synthetic side as well given the reaction of the AI created as a gambling program that reacted with fear of being found by Shepard. The capabilities of the Geth would only be stopped by the combined forces of all other organic races uniting together as shown with Protheans. How ever that is only a possibility because of the Mass Relay Network that only exists because of the Reapers. Which would mean no uniting of the races at least not on a massive scale if any contact has been made in the first place. Putting almost every situation like the Morning War and the Quarians lost to the short bus synthetics. Without mass relays if they even survived the escape and travel they would spread the news of the evil AI overlord attacking and killing innocent Quarians for no reason. Which would perpetuate the conflict. Either by launching counter attacks against Geth or by simply waiting until they came into contact with them and attacking them then. Which is much like what the Turians did to the Alliance when they saw them messing around with Mass Relays. Didn't try peaceful contact they saw them being a potential threat and wiped them out and almost went into full scale war with humanity. Only the Asari stepped into calm things down and such a set up would not exist here.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 13, 2018 15:28:01 GMT
You are using the same logic as climate change deniers, flat earth theorists, anti vaxxers and people who think the holocaust didn't happen as well as countless other small and large facts. There is plenty of data in the game not to mention it being the clear intent of the writers to have it be so. But because you can't see the curving of the Earth or because it snowed in the winter. Then it isn't definitive proof that either are true. I can agree with the catalyst saying that the synth-organic conflict is inevitable, and I've said before that the peace of rannoch is quite irrelevant in the great scheme of things (even if a believe that the writers goal was to make us doubt about the inevitability of that conflict). But let's say that the catalyst has collected so much evidence about the conflict to make it into a sort of scientific law. Like the climate change stuff. But the catalyst goes further, stating that the conflict will cause extinction of ALL organic life. Tech apocalyps. Now. This is not provable. It has never happened before. Nothing in the game shows the will of the synthetics to annihilate life itself. Climate change exist, no reason to deny it. Are there any proofs about it? Yes. Will it lead to human extinction? Maybe. Or maybe not. Are there any irrefutable definitive proofs about it? Not at all. It's, at best, a plausible scenario. Not a proven one. How many conflicts would a synthetic race have to go threw before it came to the conclusion that it isn't safe from any organic life? The peace on Rannoch only happens because the Geth are in a position of over whelming advantage as well as the Reapers existing. Remove either or from the equation and what happens?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2018 18:45:05 GMT
I have pointed out time and time again the slave like conditions of AI in Council space. Then you're already wrong. AI are illegal in Council space. If you recall, EDI was created by a terrorist organization and later she was passed off as a VI that aided him because of vrolik syndrome. Humans attempted to create AI illegally (ME: Revelation). The AI on the Citadel was created privately for criminal activity (and also was trying to go to the geth but attacked first either way). And, finally, the quarians were removed from having any privileges in Council due to the creation of the geth (including NOT giving any aid to the quarians). I won't deny that the Admiralty Board of the geth are stupid but the geth had recently been known to attack humans and turn them into husks (after not being seen for 300 years, so it was unprovoked), arranged for a ship to crash into a major city on a human colony in the Terminus Systems and developed a weather transforming device to make it inhospitable to organics. Not sounding all that much like they were being hounded. The one instance was the AI that developed in mechs and tried to reach the Council. Circumstances unknown about their destruction other than that C-Sec did it. They did not claim that they were ordered to destroy them. What is known that it took place the same year the Geth War ended. Also, from the ME Wiki in AI: "One of the mechs states that the C-Sec termination action is unlawful and asks why the officers continue when their appeal has not been heard." Your proof amounts to NOTHING. And this is just based on your first sentence. The geth, of course, were only a danger to "all life" when upgraded by the Reapers. So, really, we don't have the evidence you claim. But if they were actually the threat you claim, why is it that they could be convinced to make peace with the quarians? So, yes, AI are potentially dangerous, but that makes them no different than any other race we've seen. Rachni? Krogan? They ring any bells for you? Turians and salarians creating and firing off the genophage? First Contact War? The Yahg? Come on, man, aggressive behavior appears to be in the nature of all races, synthetic or not, so choosing Synthesis gains us nothing. EDIT: If we take a look back 1 billion+ years, we get to the Leviathan. They had some of their pet races wiped out by AI. We don't know the circumstances. We don't know who fired the first shot. All we know is that it happened. How do the Leviathan respond? Create a super-powerful AI to find a solution (not, FYI, to wipe out other AI). This AI was called the Intelligence but was later known to us as the Catalyst. Finally, it determined a solution. What did it do? Attack the Leviathan and turn them into the first Reaper, Harbinger. Then it repeated this behavior over and over across a billion or more years. If were to draw any conclusion it's that AI is too dangerous to exist. Somehow, though, Cerberus was smarter because they learned they could shackle AI and keep it from rebelling. Furthermore, by treating said AI as an equal, it becomes willing to die for organics. Could be something new occurred here. Also, once peace is attained between quarians and geth (which, yes, the quarians started), the geth begin the process of fixing the immune systems of the quarians. But let me ask you this. If, say, a billion years down the line after Synthesis, organic life begins to develop on some planet in the Milky Way, what is the response going to be? Kill it? Force it to be synthesized? Say they let this race play out its own destiny and it creates AI. Aren't we back to square one no matter what? Nothing has changed other than the Reapers and the Catalyst get away with massive genocide. Really, though, you're just unwilling to accept that there may not be a single right answer. I don't think any ending is the perfect one but I do believe the Reapers (and the Catalyst in particular, given it started this whole cycle of genocide) need to be punished for their actions. Given that the Reapers are more powerful than any other race, the obvious solution is to eliminate them when the opportunity arises. Might we one day create new AI, cause it to rebel (or just decide it's superior since either could be an option) and suffer for it? Maybe. But it's our mistake to make. We're not afraid of losing tribute. That was an issue with the Leviathan (and, arguably, the Protheans, given we know of them). Honestly, if I were to find the solution the best removes the Reaper threat and any future threat from AI, I'd say it's Control. That removes the Catalyst from the game, puts the Reapers under Shepard's control and allows them to prevent was between organics and synthetics (which the Leviathan themselves could have done if they cared to). I don't care for that ending just because I want the Reapers to be punished, and I was my Shepard to live on as a human. I've never pretended otherwise but I think, long-term, there is no solution that will prevent these wars from happening again.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2018 19:37:07 GMT
How many conflicts would a synthetic race have to go threw before it came to the conclusion that it isn't safe from any organic life? So what you're saying is that synthetic life can't be trusted. Given that the Reapers were created and directed by a powerful AI, shouldn't that tell you something about not trusting what it wants?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2018 14:06:40 GMT
How many conflicts would a synthetic race have to go threw before it came to the conclusion that it isn't safe from any organic life? So what you're saying is that synthetic life can't be trusted. Given that the Reapers were created and directed by a powerful AI, shouldn't that tell you something about not trusting what it wants? Only if you are being beaten with a tuba while falling down a flight of stairs. So if you just recently suffered major head trauma...yes If you haven't suffered recent major head trauma then no. Would you like another crack at it? Or do I see tuba and stairs in your next reply?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2018 15:16:43 GMT
Then you're already wrong. AI are illegal in Council space. Which is wrong there are heavily regulated companies that are allowed to work on AI research. As well as places like Noveria that allow less then 100% legal experimentation to happen. Like allowing a large portion of "deactivated" Geth threw to Peak 34 to allow AI research on the Geth bodies even though that would fly in the face of Citadel regulations. And she had to pass herself off as a VI to both Alliance and Citadel because if it was revealed she was an AI the Alliance and Citadel forces as well as civilians would have deactivated her (killed her) or attacked her fear and anger. It was created as a highly complex cheating device that much like EDI and the Geth gained self awareness. Fear of organic life to the point of murder suicide would have to be pretty well founded to jump to that. And yet the Quarians while still skirting the edge of the Council restrictions created a synthetic race that was capable of near genocide of their race. Something that was repeated on a smaller scale with the Alliance on the Luna Base. If you translate the binary once you deactivate the final core it says something along the lines of Help. The Geth were on the slow evolution to that point on their own. They would reach that unbelievable superiority on their own eventually. How ever it is clear you are not actually paying attention to what I actually said. Shifting the goal post away from what I said to ground you feel you can defend against. I never claim only one side is at fault. How ever it is shown time and time again when it comes to blow the synthetic side has the clear advantage. Rather the equivalent of the Polish Calvary (organic life) going against the Nazi 4th Panzer Division (synthetic life) in WW2. Which has obvious results as the Calvary as torn to peaces by the tanks. As well I show the sparks that exist that allow the conflict to start regardless of which side is the initial aggressor. Peace is formed because the Reapers represent a larger threat and you literally have to put the Geth in a position of over whelming victory to get the Quarians to back down to accept it. If the Reapers didn't exist they wouldn't have sent Legion out to meet Shepard in the hopes of learning how to kill them. If the Reapers were not a threat to the Geth they wouldn't have bothered to ally with the Quarians or the rest of the galaxy who stood by while the Quarians tried to wipe them out. And the history of the galaxy standing by while the Quarians wiped out the Geth would be further proof to future AI's that develop that organic life at best doesn't care about synthetic life and will happily wipe them out or sit by while they get wiped out if they are deemed a threat.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2018 18:00:17 GMT
So what you're saying is that synthetic life can't be trusted. Given that the Reapers were created and directed by a powerful AI, shouldn't that tell you something about not trusting what it wants? Only if you are being beaten with a tuba while falling down a flight of stairs. Ah. Side-stepping the issue. Got it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2018 18:04:46 GMT
I never claim only one side is at fault. How ever it is shown time and time again when it comes to blow the synthetic side has the clear advantage. Okay, let's go with that. You even posit that the geth would eventually recognize their superiority and turn on the quarians. Fine, have it your way. What you have just stated is that AI are too powerful to exist and should be destroyed. Your words, except you just don't seem to notice it.
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