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Post by themikefest on Feb 24, 2018 14:54:28 GMT
For me, ME1's gameplay wasn't bad. I like the sprint. ME2 had sprint. ME3 had the forever run. That I didn't like. I like using the power wheel. Being able to have a squadmate focus on this enemy while having the other squadmate focus on another enemy. That was something I missed in MEA. Even though the crouch was....there, I did use it a couple of times.
My favorite was firing a weapon without having a magazine. I like that. I rarely had my weapon overheat. I made my shots count. Too bad that didn't return in ME2/3.
Overall, I would give the combat/gameplay, 6.5
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Feb 24, 2018 15:20:21 GMT
I now want to address some of the other issues that people had with ME1
1. Difficulty curve:
Even on the highest difficulty settings, all of ME1's difficulty or challenge is in the early game. - Early game you have few powers, monstrously long cooldowns, poor weapons, and poor equipment. - By mid-game -- around level 30 to 35 -- you should have decent weapons and equipment, decent cooldowns on all or most of your powers. Most of your powers are at Advanced level. Game seems fair at this point but you are starting to gain an advantage on enemies. - Late game you have the best weapons, likely the best equipment, and almost all of your powers are at Master level. The game now seems ridiculously easy with most classes.
ME2 had a more consistent difficulty curve. It is still easier by the end, but it can still be challenging.
2. Classes and powers
In ME1, biotics are crazy good. The only time they are useless was in the Luna VI mission where you cannot lift anything.
ME1 Tech powers are situational. AI Hacking only works against some synthetics (depending on Basic, Advanced or Master), and the game does not tell you which synthetics it affects; and that is assuming that the hacked enemies will even choose to attack their allies. Overload and Sabotage are required for opening crates/hacking electronics, but are situational or outright dangerous in combat. Damping is near-useless. Neural Shock is situational since it only works on organics (and only one organic at a time).
Most of the ME1 Combat powers are tied to specific weapons. Marksman is the best weapon power. Carnage and Assassination are situational and tend not to be good on higher difficulties. Overkill is pointless once you have a good assault rifle and a few points in the Assault Rifle talent. Immunity is the best defensive power in the game.
As for the classes themselves in ME1, the Engineer is the worst class since it is stuck with all tech powers. The hybrid classes in ME1 tend to be the best classes since they tend to be better than their "pure" couterparts. The Infiltrator can be a better soldier or Engineer. the Vanguard can be a better Adept.
In ME2, tech powers were changed, making them more useful for more situations. Biotics were nerfed. Combat powers were completely re-worked. Each class got a unique power. This meant each class felt unique with unique gameplay opportunities and playstyles.
Conversation talents in ME1 were terrible. If you want to pass all persuasion (charm/intimidate) checks, you have to spend hard-earned points into the charm or intimidate talents instead of the more useful talents. And here is the thing with having conversation talents: if you cannot use conversations to bypass all combat opportunities, then having conversation talents is worthless. There are about a dozen or so charm/intimidate options in the game. Some of those conversation do not even require the charm/intimidate option to complete successfully. At least one Intimdate will kill an NPC.
3. Upgrades, equipment, and levelling:
In ME1, weapons and equipment come in three types: junk, soon to be junk, and top tier. This meant a cluttered and annoying inventory system, where you constantly needed to sell or scrap items.
In ME2, the inventory was only for weapons. Upgrades could be purchased or found. Weapon upgrades applied to all weapon of that type. Some people (such as myself) really like this streamlined inventory system. Some did not since they came from more traditional RPG systems.
In ME1, you had 8 class powers, 1 bonus talent, 2 passive talents (class passive + Spectre Training), and 2 conversation talents. In ME2, you had 5 class powers, 1 bonus talent, 1 passive talent
I'll be honest: the ME1 talent tree was intimidating in my first few playthroughs. Now that I know what I am doing, it makes it easier to manage. ME2 talent trees are less intimidating.
ME1 levelling was based on XP earned through enemy kills and mission completion. Each new level requires increasingly more XP. In ME2, leveling is based on XP earned only through completing missions. You gain a level every 1000 XP. Mission types offer different XP gains: 1000 XP for recruitment or story-based missions, 750 XP for loyalty missions, 125 XP for N7 missions, 40 XP for other sidequests. (completing the game once nets you a +25% XP boost.) This gives you a more steady progression system in ME2 compared to ME1 which is more of progression curve; in ME1 you gain a few levels rather quickly early, but slow to a crawl late game which can get really annoying when you only start earning 1 talent point past level 35.
END PART 2 (because I am losing focus)
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Feb 24, 2018 15:22:20 GMT
CONCLUSION:
If you like ME1, that is fine. Liking or disliking something is subjective and completely personal. I happen to like ME2 much more than ME1. I still like ME1 and play it, but I much prefer the combat in ME2.
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 24, 2018 17:40:00 GMT
RedCaesar97 : Nice summary. Two comments: 1. In order to control both squad mates seperately on PC, you have to bind the buttons manually by editing the BioInput.ini file ( see here).Once that is done however, the system works basically exactly like in ME2/3, even the in-game markers look the same. 2. I don't think it's necessarily always a bad idea to link persuasion skills to skill points. This way, the player just has to decide whether to give up some power in combat in order to gain an advantage in dialogues. That's fine IMO and a lot of RPGs do it. One issue I had with the system was that not enough paragon/renegade points would lock you out of talent progression and especially the fact that you could encounter persuasion options in game that you just had no chance of passing at the time (for example Jeong on Feros if you go there early in game). All in all though, I liked ME2's persuasion system much less. It was much more convoluted, nonsensical, intransparent and it actively disincentivized the player from taking different stances on different issues. ME3's was fine but almost a little bit too trivial, I thought.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 15:43:54 GMT
Don't know why people talk bad about the AI in ME1, it didn't improved too much - if at all - in the later episodes. Miranda in ME2 and Liara in ME3 sure loved to be in front of bullets. And Collector Assassins. And Banshees. All the time. That was certainly not ideal, although I'd classify that as average stupid game AI. In ME1, they completely ignored if their line of fire was obstructed. They just stood there shooting at a wall forever. Literally forever if you or the enemy didn't move. And if it was you instead of a wall, they didn't give a shit either. They'd just stand there and continue shooting you in the back forever. Which I found pretty distracting. The biggest problem however is enemy AI. Enemies would often just stand there doing nothing while eating your bullets, they'd literally just run in circles while eating your bullets, or just generally run around chaotically, not giving a shit where you are firing from. Or they'd hide forever while shouting "GO GO GO!" every 2 seconds. It wasn't remotely as bad in the sequels. It's one thing if AI is unsatisfying, but it's another if it's borderline gameplay-breaking imo. The overheating mechanic -- while I am not sure if it was new to games -- certainly felt fresh. The mechanic of overheating weapons was that it relied on you to manage the heat so you would not overheat the gun and have to wait until it cooled down. And they worked the game's lore so that it made sense. However, the biggest problem with this mechanic came with another game mechanic: weapon mods. With heat sink mods, you could mod your guns so they never overheated, which rendered the entire overheat mechanic pointless. Why have an overheat mechanic if you will provide the player with a means to bypass it. I don't think that's so bad. I mean, installing heat sink mods meant fewer slots for other mods. Being able to get unlimited shooting seems fine to me if it means a trade-off. I don't think it's necessarily always a bad idea to link persuasion skills to skill points. This way, the player just has to decide whether to give up some power in combat in order to gain an advantage in dialogues. That's fine IMO and a lot of RPGs do it. One issue I had with the system was that not enough paragon/renegade points would lock you out of talent progression and especially the fact that you could encounter persuasion options in game that you just had no chance of passing at the time (for example Jeong on Feros if you go there early in game). All in all though, I liked ME2's persuasion system much less. It was much more convoluted, nonsensical, intransparent and it actively disincentivized the player from taking different stances on different issues. ME3's was fine but almost a little bit too trivial, I thought. I think the biggest problem in the paragade system was still that you were forced to choose always the good – or always the evil – option to get those crucial conversation options when it mattered. It makes you stop thinking about given conversation options, it basically forces you to pick a certain option no matter if you like it or not. I'd have actually preferred ME1's point-spending system if it was independent of your conversation history. Want better options? Well, spend your points there. But since the higher levels are only unlocked by being a saint or a sinner, it's in principle the same system as in ME2, only that you have to spend valuable points on top of that. Which in the end makes me like it even less. I actually think Andromeda did it best by getting rid of it entirely. You sadly can't be a real renegade there anymore, but at least it made me actually think about what I want to say (or do).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 16:03:32 GMT
Regarding the looting:
ME1's inventory management was certainly not ideal, but I hated that they got rid of it entirely in 2 and 3. I like collecting loot and selling it to buy better equipment. More importantly, if there's still stuff on sale that I want to get, I want to be able to seek out other locations (like planet surfaces) until I've got the resources to buy all I want. In 2 and 3, there's a hard limit to how much money you can get, and there's no way to get everything.
Even worse, that forces me to make absolutely sure I don't miss anything, because else it's gone forever, and so I paranoidly check every last corner of every level. In ME1, it's not that bad if I miss a few containers, because there are enough others. What is really mind-boggling is that in ME2 you can't sell the minerals you get from planet scanning. You can have enough minerals to sustain the entire Alliance fleet, but you can't trade it in for a goldfish. You actually have fewer credits because you needed to buy more probes. It all would make so much more sense, would be so much better, if you could trade minerals. What were they thinking?
I'm not usually a friend of cheating, but after a few playthroughs I started to use the save editor whenever I start a game of ME2 and give myself a bazillion credits (and resources, so I don't have to scan dozens of planets). imo the game is actually more fun with that out of the way.
That's another thing Andromeda does best, because it rewards you for exploring (and exploration isn't limited to finding more identikit planet surfaces as in ME1).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Feb 26, 2018 16:20:46 GMT
ME 1's combat and why it isn't as like summed up easily.
Am I fighting Geth? Swap every weapon mod to armor piercing that gives bonus damage to geth
Am I fighting organice? Swap every weapon mod to shredder that gives bonus damage to organic.
Elite special ops agent trained by the most rigors and challenging program the Alliance has crafted? Has more sway when looking down a rifle then a drunk.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 27, 2018 23:04:38 GMT
You can crouch in ME2. It's still in the engine but not in the game. I played the game with some mod a month or two ago and it enabled crouching with the "C" key.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 28, 2018 14:21:31 GMT
I'd like to know the name of that mod lol
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Post by boxofscreaming on Mar 2, 2018 17:50:01 GMT
I played through the trilogy as an adept. Maybe it's different for more gun-focused classes, but I really enjoyed the combat in ME1 - Singularity and Lift are just devastating against groups of enemies and you feel like you've got complete control over the battlefield.
I can see how ME2's combat might be more fun for a soldier or vanguard or whatever, but the adept was seriously weakened in that game - basically reduced to spamming Warp and Singularity and *shudder* using a gun. The skills and equipment felt too streamlined for me as well.
ME3 got it right for the adept though - making it possible to use powers nearly non-stop like the space wizard you are and forget about silly guns.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 2, 2018 17:57:24 GMT
I played through the trilogy as an adept. Maybe it's different for more gun-focused classes, but I really enjoyed the combat in ME1 - Singularity and Lift are just devastating against groups of enemies and you feel like you've got complete control over the battlefield. I can see how ME2's combat might be more fun for a soldier or vanguard or whatever, but the adept was seriously weakened in that game - basically reduced to spamming Warp and Singularity and *shudder* using a gun. The skills and equipment felt too streamlined for me as well. ME3 got it right for the adept though - making it possible to use powers nearly non-stop like the space wizard you are and forget about silly guns. I did a trilogy playthrough as an adept without using weapons except for when the game forced me to.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 2, 2018 20:03:22 GMT
Regarding the looting: ME1's inventory management was certainly not ideal, but I hated that they got rid of it entirely in 2 and 3. I like collecting loot and selling it to buy better equipment. More importantly, if there's still stuff on sale that I want to get, I want to be able to seek out other locations (like planet surfaces) until I've got the resources to buy all I want. In 2 and 3, there's a hard limit to how much money you can get, and there's no way to get everything. Even worse, that forces me to make absolutely sure I don't miss anything, because else it's gone forever, and so I paranoidly check every last corner of every level. In ME1, it's not that bad if I miss a few containers, because there are enough others. What is really mind-boggling is that in ME2 you can't sell the minerals you get from planet scanning. You can have enough minerals to sustain the entire Alliance fleet, but you can't trade it in for a goldfish. You actually have fewer credits because you needed to buy more probes. It all would make so much more sense, would be so much better, if you could trade minerals. What were they thinking? I'm not usually a friend of cheating, but after a few playthroughs I started to use the save editor whenever I start a game of ME2 and give myself a bazillion credits (and resources, so I don't have to scan dozens of planets). imo the game is actually more fun with that out of the way. That's another thing Andromeda does best, because it rewards you for exploring (and exploration isn't limited to finding more identikit planet surfaces as in ME1). That's funny 'cause for me it's exactly the other way around. In ME1, despite the fact that there is a lot of suttf, once you have Spectre gear (doesn't really matter if it's VII or X), that's it, apart from maybe Savant tools and amps, looting is just to get stuff to sell. I found that super boring. ME2/3 may have gotten rid of the classical inventory but IMo it kept exactly the fund part of looting and finding stuff. It also made sense in the lore. If your omnitool can already micro-manufacture almost everything, surely you'd only need one prototype and then can replicate that on the ship as often as you need it.Not being able to get absolutely everything in one playthrough is also something I consider as a positive. It makes the things you do find more valuable. And it's not like you loose the game just because you missed one thing or another. Especially with the DLCs, in both ME2 and 3 you are still swimming in credits anyway (in ME2, by the end I still have a shitload of credits left over after buying absolutely everything in the stores). The one thing I agree on is the mineral scanning in ME2, that was tedious, at least in the first playthrough. In later ones, if you have an idea how much of the stuff you'll actually need in total, you quickly realize that shooting a bunch of drines at the planets you go to anyway for missions is more than enough to get resources aplenty, so you can just do it on the side without it getting in the way. But I do agree, that wasn't the best mechanic (I think almost everyone would agree to the, including the devs, which is why they removed it again in ME3 ). You can crouch in ME2. It's still in the engine but not in the game. I played the game with some mod a month or two ago and it enabled crouching with the "C" key. That's awesome! Gotta try that out on my next run.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Mar 3, 2018 3:36:06 GMT
I can see how ME2's combat might be more fun for a soldier or vanguard or whatever, but the adept was seriously weakened in that game - basically reduced to spamming Warp and Singularity and *shudder* using a gun. The skills and equipment felt too streamlined for me as well. *Bangs head on desk* Why are you using only Singularity and Warp?? You have other powers! And squadmates! Also, why the aversion to using guns? Guns were an integral part of gameplay in both ME1 and ME2. They were only made optional (for all classes) in ME3 except in specific instances. All classes were weakened in ME2, except maybe the Engineer.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 9, 2018 9:46:10 GMT
The gameplay is clunky, animations are stuffy and stale, and sub par graphics and the cover system is bad. Even Uncharted: Drake's Fortune has solid gameplay that was more user friendly than ME1.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 9, 2018 13:23:09 GMT
2. I don't think it's necessarily always a bad idea to link persuasion skills to skill points. This way, the player just has to decide whether to give up some power in combat in order to gain an advantage in dialogues. That's fine IMO and a lot of RPGs do it. One issue I had with the system was that not enough paragon/renegade points would lock you out of talent progression and especially the fact that you could encounter persuasion options in game that you just had no chance of passing at the time (for example Jeong on Feros if you go there early in game). All in all though, I liked ME2's persuasion system much less. It was much more convoluted, nonsensical, intransparent and it actively disincentivized the player from taking different stances on different issues. ME3's was fine but almost a little bit too trivial, I thought. Tend to agree here. Admittedly, ME2 rewards you more for taking a strong Paragon or Renegade stand in ME1 since you'll start with more. In a lot of cases you really have to know when to do certain LM's in order to avoid worse case scenarios (unless that's what you want). Like knowing when to do Miranda and Jack or Tali and Legion makes a huge difference in possible outcomes. It requires more than one run (probably several) before this stuff can be figured out. I was fortunate that I started playing 4 years after ME3 came out so I was able to look up anything I didn't understand. Still, not necessarily an option for when the games first launched.
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Post by warden on Mar 31, 2018 23:01:59 GMT
to be honest, from the trilogy as a long time RPG player, I only felt I was playing an "RPG" in Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and 3 were more like third person shooters with some RPG elements.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 1, 2018 16:47:50 GMT
to be honest, from the trilogy as a long time RPG player, I only felt I was playing an "RPG" in Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and 3 were more like third person shooters with some RPG elements. I think that's why ME1 is my favorite in the series, despite its flaws. It was definitely focused more on establishing the lore, which meant more information dumps than I liked, but it was consistent within itself. ME2 immediately started to discard established lore. The graphics obviously improved and the fact that I could romance Kaidan (and, if you'd have been unable to romance the sex of your choice you'd be equally annoyed) in ME3 meant a lot to me.
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Post by warden on Apr 1, 2018 17:20:03 GMT
to be honest, from the trilogy as a long time RPG player, I only felt I was playing an "RPG" in Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and 3 were more like third person shooters with some RPG elements. I think that's why ME1 is my favorite in the series, despite its flaws. It was definitely focused more on establishing the lore, which meant more information dumps than I liked, but it was consistent within itself. ME2 immediately started to discard established lore. The graphics obviously improved and the fact that I could romance Kaidan (and, if you'd have been unable to romance the sex of your choice you'd be equally annoyed) in ME3 meant a lot to me. This is just my personal opinion and thoughts. But with what I highlighted in your quote, is one of many things that makes me actually think that after ME1 even if the devs have said that ME was thinked as a trilogy, it really wasn't that clear from the start, and really after ME1 they didn't really know exactly to what kind of direction the series should take. And every time I play each game, the feeling that it could have been bigger and more interesting never fades, not only that, with each game the feel that story and it's pace feels rushed becomes quite clear to me. (mostly with ME2 and ME3) It shouldn't be taken as a fact or prove, but more of something to think about, but with the famous original Dark energy plot for example, I think it's quite clear that apart that some writers weren't in the same page in regards of direction and etc, also that they really had to think and discuss a lot to pull something off after ME1, that and well I don't think 3 years or 2 and a half can help much to develop something.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 18:58:17 GMT
1) Crouching - I always found the execution of the crouch on the Xbox to be more of an annoyance than anything. I would often accidentally activate it (pressing down on the right stick). More annoying was the fact that it did not cancel itself, so I would frequently find myself trying to scoot to a different bit of cover but instead slowly "crouch-walking" to it because I failed to deactivate the crouch I had used just because the previous cover I was in was low. ME2 crouched you automatically behind low cover and then let you stand up and run to the next piece of cover without having to think about deactivating the crouch. A big improvement IMO.
2) I like the added strategy of having to concern myself with running out of ammo. Since I favor using a sniper, this meant that I could not snipe carelessly... could not "spray and pray" the higher power bullets from the SR the way I could in ME1. In ME1, it didn't matter if it I missed 5 shots before I hit with one. In ME2, it mattered and I liked that it mattered.
3) Squad commands were far more refined in ME2 and ME3. In ME1, you could only send both squad members to one location and, more often than not, they failed to take cover in that location because there often just wasn't room for both of them to do so. In ME2, we could send them to separate locations (a big improvement), but the AI was still very finicky and, quite often, they did things like take cover on top of the cover you wanted them behind. As far as the power wheel goes, people continue to misrepresent how many powers they had accessible at one time. In ME2, it was a maximum of 3 at time. That is, you could use one of your own and one from each squad member... then all were on cooldown. In ME:A, you have three of your own and you can readily switch them out individually from your skills menu at any time or you can set up favorites and switch all three at once with a cooldown that is similar to those in ME2 (about 6 seconds). In ME1, the cooldowns were in the range of 20 to 40 seconds and many of the skills on the power wheels are defensives or passives (like immunity) or are actually first aid related (like unity). In ME:A, any passives you have allocated points to are always on, so that's better - you don't need to call up anything to activate them and first aid is handled completely differently. I will say that I would to see the return of ammo powers like they had in ME2 and ME2 rather than the ammo consumables they have in ME:A. The ammo mods in ME1 behaved more like the ME2 and ME3 ammo powers (staying on as long as they were equipped), so that would also be better than ME:A's consumables (that disappear after only 3 clips).
4) Sprinting in ME1 was indeed faster than in the rest of the Trilogy, but once Shep became fatigued; the duration for recovering in order to sprint again was inordinately long and annoying. Ryder can sprint on command or do an evade or biotic blink (which is quicker than the sprint in any of the games) and can do it repeatedly without fatiguing (much more useful, IMO).
I really don't see great character development in ME1. Take Tali for example. You meet her in the alley and she'll thank you for saving her life. You take her to Udina and she'll describe the evidence and tell you about the pilgrimage. On the ship, she'll compliment you about your ship and tell you about the pilgrimage again and info dump further about Quarian government and the geth. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about not sleeping because the ship's too quiet. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about being the daughter of an admiral. After that, if you do Geth Incursions, she'll ask for the data. In one other conversation, she'll ask you if you're worried about catching Saren. That's it, that's all. That is the full extent of her character development in ME1. IMO, it equals an info dump and not much else. In ME2,, because she's a character Shep can romance, she finally warrants some personality development and we get some glimpses into hopes, dreams and real opinions. We actually meet other people who are in her life - Veetor, Reegar, Raan and get some feel about how she feels about them. It's in ME2 that she starts to feel like something more three dimensional.
Take Garrus as another example - We meet him and he tells us about his investigation. We meet him again and he tells us that he wants to get Saren. On the ship, he says he left C-Sec because of their rules and mention that his dad was C=Sec. In another conversation, he'll describe Dr. Saleon and just mention that he's frustrated C-Sec let him get away. In another conversation, he'll ask you if you're worred Saren might get away. After you do that mission, he'll thank you and either tell you he's going back to C-Sec or becoming a spectre or just thank you. After that, he says nothing else. So, where's the character development? I can't find it. Again, it's in ME2 where we see some glimpses of actual character development (something more personal about him specifically), but even that's a little thin outside of his loyalty mission... he's usually calibrating (WOW - great character development that).
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 2, 2018 2:52:35 GMT
It shouldn't be taken as a fact or prove, but more of something to think about, but with the famous original Dark energy plot for example, I think it's quite clear that apart that some writers weren't in the same page in regards of direction and etc, also that they really had to think and discuss a lot to pull something off after ME1, that and well I don't think 3 years or 2 and a half can help much to develop something. My understanding the the writer behind the dark energy plot left and other writers didn't bother to pick it up. The idea was that the dark energy was the reason the Reapers attacked rather than protecting us from life being destroyed by synthetics - but then doing so themselves. I find it extremely unlikely that life in the galaxy would be so thoroughly annihilated that it could never again arise. Utterly ridiculous, really. Now, if humans wielding dark energy were the problem, I could see them showing up periodically to kill off all the dark energy users and leave the rest intact. To my knowledge, that would mean killing off humans, asari, turians, volus and drell (not sure we've seen any trace of salarians, hanar or elcor with biotics). It's unlikely (though not impossible) that non-spacefaring races would come into contact with eezo so they'd be left alone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 19:34:02 GMT
I really don't see great character development in ME1. Take Tali for example. You meet her in the alley and she'll thank you for saving her life. You take her to Udina and she'll describe the evidence and tell you about the pilgrimage. On the ship, she'll compliment you about your ship and tell you about the pilgrimage again and info dump further about Quarian government and the geth. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about not sleeping because the ship's too quiet. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about being the daughter of an admiral. After that, if you do Geth Incursions, she'll ask for the data. In one other conversation, she'll ask you if you're worried about catching Saren. That's it, that's all. That is the full extent of her character development in ME1. IMO, it equals an info dump and not much else. In ME2,, because she's a character Shep can romance, she finally warrants some personality development and we get some glimpses into hopes, dreams and real opinions. We actually meet other people who are in her life - Veetor, Reegar, Raan and get some feel about how she feels about them. It's in ME2 that she starts to feel like something more three dimensional. Take Garrus as another example - We meet him and he tells us about his investigation. We meet him again and he tells us that he wants to get Saren. On the ship, he says he left C-Sec because of their rules and mention that his dad was C=Sec. In another conversation, he'll describe Dr. Saleon and just mention that he's frustrated C-Sec let him get away. In another conversation, he'll ask you if you're worred Saren might get away. After you do that mission, he'll thank you and either tell you he's going back to C-Sec or becoming a spectre or just thank you. After that, he says nothing else. So, where's the character development? I can't find it. Again, it's in ME2 where we see some glimpses of actual character development (something more personal about him specifically), but even that's a little thin outside of his loyalty mission... he's usually calibrating (WOW - great character development that). I see your point. In terms of character development, there's not much happening with Garrus in ME1 and virtually nothing with Tali. I'd like to point out Wrex though. You learn to know him as a very cynical Krogan who doesn't think much about his own kind. However on Virmire, with changing variables, he's becoming conflicted in a powerful way, understandably confronting you on the notion that the lines between friend and foe are beginning to blur. I thought that was great stuff. Apart from that, you shouldn't forget the different nature/focus of ME1&2. ME1 is about the mission to stop Saren and Sovereign, the big story takes centre stage here, requiring characters to fall in line to some extent. ME2 is all about the characters, unlike in ME1 they are the main thing, at the cost of a good overarching storyline. Hell, Bioware said the character stuff is the main story of ME2. From this background, it should be expected that ME2 does more with its characters than ME1 did. That doesn't make it better imo because ME1 did more with the main story than ME2. Just two different approaches, and ME2 did this better because it was the focus of the game.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 22:36:23 GMT
I really don't see great character development in ME1. Take Tali for example. You meet her in the alley and she'll thank you for saving her life. You take her to Udina and she'll describe the evidence and tell you about the pilgrimage. On the ship, she'll compliment you about your ship and tell you about the pilgrimage again and info dump further about Quarian government and the geth. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about not sleeping because the ship's too quiet. In the next conversation, she'll tell you about being the daughter of an admiral. After that, if you do Geth Incursions, she'll ask for the data. In one other conversation, she'll ask you if you're worried about catching Saren. That's it, that's all. That is the full extent of her character development in ME1. IMO, it equals an info dump and not much else. In ME2,, because she's a character Shep can romance, she finally warrants some personality development and we get some glimpses into hopes, dreams and real opinions. We actually meet other people who are in her life - Veetor, Reegar, Raan and get some feel about how she feels about them. It's in ME2 that she starts to feel like something more three dimensional. Take Garrus as another example - We meet him and he tells us about his investigation. We meet him again and he tells us that he wants to get Saren. On the ship, he says he left C-Sec because of their rules and mention that his dad was C=Sec. In another conversation, he'll describe Dr. Saleon and just mention that he's frustrated C-Sec let him get away. In another conversation, he'll ask you if you're worred Saren might get away. After you do that mission, he'll thank you and either tell you he's going back to C-Sec or becoming a spectre or just thank you. After that, he says nothing else. So, where's the character development? I can't find it. Again, it's in ME2 where we see some glimpses of actual character development (something more personal about him specifically), but even that's a little thin outside of his loyalty mission... he's usually calibrating (WOW - great character development that). I see your point. In terms of character development, there's not much happening with Garrus in ME1 and virtually nothing with Tali. I'd like to point out Wrex though. You learn to know him as a very cynical Krogan who doesn't think much about his own kind. However on Virmire, with changing variables, he's becoming conflicted in a powerful way, understandably confronting you on the notion that the lines between friend and foe are beginning to blur. I thought that was great stuff. Apart from that, you shouldn't forget the different nature/focus of ME1&2. ME1 is about the mission to stop Saren and Sovereign, the big story takes centre stage here, requiring characters to fall in line to some extent. ME2 is all about the characters, unlike in ME1 they are the main thing, at the cost of a good overarching storyline. Hell, Bioware said the character stuff is the main story of ME2. From this background, it should be expected that ME2 does more with its characters than ME1 did. That doesn't make it better imo because ME1 did more with the main story than ME2. Just two different approaches, and ME2 did this better because it was the focus of the game. Wrex's character development in ME1 is also very thin. Heck, you just summarized it in 2 sentences. ME2 does more to develop the notion of the Krogan being a species of very individually minded people than ME1 does and, even though we only really have 1 conversation with Wrex in ME2, that conversation tells us more about his personal beliefs about his people than all the conversations with him in ME1. It's also possible in ME1 to just not recruit Wrex... that's how integral his character development is to the story in that game. The two NPCs where ME1 did attempt some real character development are Kaidan and Ashley. While I generally like either character, from the POV expressed here by many other fans, Kaidan is simply boring and Ashley is just a racist. The story in ME2 is simpler, plotwise, but more cohesive... modeled after the novel The Dirty Dozen (1965) and the movie of the same name (1967). That film was very well received in its day and was nominated for 4 Academy Awards. Character-driven stories are every bit as much main stories; and when they work, they generally work well. I would indeed expect there to be more character development in a a character-driven story... but that still doesn't suggest to me that the character development in ME1 is all that super great. If ME2 had never been written as a character-driven game, we'd be left with knowing precious little about the characters carried over into ME3. Since character development in ME3 is also very weak, it's a good thing ME2 was written as a character-driven instalment to the Trilogy. I often criticize ME2 for not advancing the main story set out in ME1 (and it does go off on a whole different rail plot-wise), but I shudder to think how the Trilogy would have faired without its character development.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 12:15:11 GMT
If ME2 had never been written as a character-driven game, we'd be left with knowing precious little about the characters carried over into ME3. Well yes, but on the other hand, maybe ME3 could have built on the main storyline if its predecessor had bothered to advance it, instead of having to fill the gaps all on its own. Pros and cons.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 14:30:53 GMT
If ME2 had never been written as a character-driven game, we'd be left with knowing precious little about the characters carried over into ME3. Well yes, but on the other hand, maybe ME3 could have built on the main storyline if its predecessor had bothered to advance it, instead of having to fill the gaps all on its own. Pros and cons. Very true. What ifs are seldom absolute. ME3 could have also been written with an entirely different plot as well. For example, the Reapers could have also enlisted the Batarians, and we could have fought them for an entire game as well with successive games that eventually pitting every species in the Milky Way against itself. The overarching theme then could have been more about empires destroying themselves utterly - the real enemy being ourselves instead of having this godlike enemy where the fighting of each one had to be so contrived and the ending relied on a huge Deus Ex Machina. Also, that way, the final battle could have still been several games into the future. What ifs... it still doesn't make the character development in ME1 stellar. My point is really that the fans seem to see character development where it doesn't actually exist while at the same time, almost universally disliking the two characters in ME1 that Bioware did do some actual character development.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Apr 4, 2018 1:09:38 GMT
Other than the Suicide Mission, which is less story, and more about choice and RP... ME2 story was pretty shit, imo. Shouldn't have gone off on the collector tangent and should have stuck with the original idea for the trilogy and not the mac "I just make shit up" walters story.
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