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Post by CHRrOME on Mar 6, 2018 17:27:47 GMT
Classes have been discussed a lot, and there're people who suggested having more classes even, or going the Andromeda approach of "everyone can be everything" which I personally wouldn't enjoy, but I'd like to take a middle ground approach.
Here's the thing, Dragon Age already has subclasses of sort, it was just never properly developed. Take the Rogue, they can be dual dagger or archers. Warriors can wield shield+sword or greatweapons. They are still essentially rogues and warriors, but they have a little twist. I compare them to the advanced classes in SWTOR, in which you are still whichever class you choose at core, but slightly different.
Say, Rogues they could specialize as dagger or archery, still sneaky. With one or a few more skill trees depending which one you choose, passive and active skills. Archers would focus on ranged combat, while dagger users would specialize on criticals, ignoring armor perhaps at some degree, think about hitting critical unprotected spots (eyes, neck, joints, weak spots etc). Blocking would be jackshit, due to daggers being too short to properly block other attacks.
Warriors could be shield and sword, dual sword or greatweapons. The idea is that the guy with shield+sword has pretty good missile protection (arrows/bolts, and magic projectiles to a small degree), good defense skill (if you do block properly using an actual button for blocking), but wont be super effective at dealing the best DPS possible. Dual sword would be spectacular for DPS, but wont be able to block any type of missiles, blocking skill could still be decent because you have at least one sword in hand. Greatweapons could deal massive armor piercing damage, great to take out bosses and the likes, blocking ability would be somewhat poor.
Mages could have a support subclass that would focus on aiding the party more than actually doing the killing, here you will also have your healer. I suggested on another thread that mages could choose not to use any weapons at all while casting spells, this will give you lots of speed, but spells will suffer a damage output penalty. The idea would be perhaps dealing with lots of weak enemies pretty quickly at the cost of loosing raw damage. Wands could be another weapon type, so long as they give them cool looking animations and not the "point and shoot" one.
The idea is to give subclasses the base set of skills, but depending which sub, they'll get a few more new set of skills based on weapon choice and other things.
And then you could have pseudo-cross classes. This idea is kind of borrowed from Path of Exile in which you have cross-classes that share things of two and even three classes at once. First thing to come to mind is the spellsword. Someone who uses a sword, but cast spells also. Of course their repertoire of spells would be different and more limited than pure mages, but with that and their swords they'd make do.
Lastly, and a bit unrelated: bring back crossbows. No longer a signature weapon of a friendly dwarf. Crossbows should be a weapon type again, and here's an idea. Let everyone be able to use one, rogues, warriors, mages if they want. Why? because of the nature of crossbows, they were created because they require no skill to shoot, unlike bows that require a strong arm and years of training. What's the catch? shit reload time and crap range. So you cannot use that thing all the time if you specialized in the warrior's path, for instance. What's the point of letting everyone use one? because why not. Get one free shot and then take out your sword and continue the battle normally. I think there should be a special skill tree. With actual training you could be even more effective, better reload speeds, better accuracy. Not sure if making it a tree for everyone or just for rogues though. Crossbows would deal pretty good damage, but the reload and shorter than bow range would be the balance here, without proper skill investment it wouldn't be viable to keep firing bolts as a warrior instead of just good old slash and stabby with your sword. This idea came from Origins, you could equip a secondary weapon in that one (I think also in DA2, but there were no crossbows there), and everyone could use a crossbow too if memory serves.
Anyways, that's some of my ideas for hypothetical subclasses.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 6, 2018 19:12:29 GMT
I want two things from DA4 classes. 1 I want mages to stay as mages, their own unique class. I like that it's part of the world lore and has story implications. While the Skyrim-type of free-for-all class system is fun, I don't want it in Dragon Age. 2 I like playing a warrior, and swords are my fav -- lots of swords! While I enjoy SnS, I would like a return for a dual-wield option for warriors. I'm sure the fear is that it would be too samey with dagger rogues, but I think that can be mitigated with the types of abilities allowed for each class. And since LukeBarrett is lurking the thread: is there a reason many of the sword options in DAI are sub-par compared with their 1h axe and mace counterparts of the same level range? Is that just for realism? I hung onto my swords even after getting better axes and maces because I greatly prefer them, but it was kind of a bummer to feel like I was gimping myself for the sake of aesthetics and roleplay.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Mar 6, 2018 23:03:15 GMT
is there a reason many of the sword options in DAI are sub-par compared with their 1h axe and mace counterparts of the same level range? Is that just for realism? I hung onto my swords even after getting better axes and maces because I greatly prefer them, but it was kind of a bummer to feel like I was gimping myself for the sake of aesthetics and roleplay. I didn't do any equipment until MP:Dragonslayer and Trespasser BUT if I were to guess I would say they were initially balanced around the fact that swords swing faster. Given that we launched with a system that only cared about weapon damage for abilities it was always beneficial to have the highest base damage of a given type (1h, 2h, DW...etc.) which meant we should have gone back through and made all the weapons have the same base damage scaling and then specifically modified the 'basic attack' modifier to compensate (so swords would be less because you can use them faster for example)... BUT obviously that didn't happen
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Post by Wulfram on Mar 6, 2018 23:42:28 GMT
Swords have better AoE than maces I think? Certainly Great Swords do more AoE than mauls.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Mar 6, 2018 23:59:19 GMT
I want two things from DA4 classes. 1 I want mages to stay as mages, their own unique class. I like that it's part of the world lore and has story implications. While the Skyrim-type of free-for-all class system is fun, I don't want it in Dragon Age. 2 I like playing a warrior, and swords are my fav -- lots of swords! While I enjoy SnS, I would like a return for a dual-wield option for warriors. I'm sure the fear is that it would be too samey with dagger rogues, but I think that can be mitigated with the types of abilities allowed for each class. And since LukeBarrett is lurking the thread: is there a reason many of the sword options in DAI are sub-par compared with their 1h axe and mace counterparts of the same level range? Is that just for realism? I hung onto my swords even after getting better axes and maces because I greatly prefer them, but it was kind of a bummer to feel like I was gimping myself for the sake of aesthetics and roleplay. I have to admit, the swords being - in general - so much weaker than their axe peers is what drove me to two-handers for my - to date - only warrior playthrough. Swords are - in my opinion - much cooler than axes or maces and seem to fit the characters of Cassandra and Blackwall better as well. In the end, I decided to just stick with dual wielding rogues
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Post by CHRrOME on Mar 6, 2018 23:59:31 GMT
I want two things from DA4 classes. 1 I want mages to stay as mages, their own unique class. I like that it's part of the world lore and has story implications. While the Skyrim-type of free-for-all class system is fun, I don't want it in Dragon Age. 2 I like playing a warrior, and swords are my fav -- lots of swords! While I enjoy SnS, I would like a return for a dual-wield option for warriors. I'm sure the fear is that it would be too samey with dagger rogues, but I think that can be mitigated with the types of abilities allowed for each class. And since LukeBarrett is lurking the thread: is there a reason many of the sword options in DAI are sub-par compared with their 1h axe and mace counterparts of the same level range? Is that just for realism? I hung onto my swords even after getting better axes and maces because I greatly prefer them, but it was kind of a bummer to feel like I was gimping myself for the sake of aesthetics and roleplay. I think dual wield Warriors could still be different from rogues if we take into account rogues move super fast and base all damage mostly on criticals. Whilst dual wield Warriors would be more about raw damage, and will have (if they implement such system) the ability to parry and riposte, while with daggers that's pretty much impossible due to the weapon's length. I don't like the way DA has handled damage, just based on numerical superiority and swing speed. There should be a more clear sense of Armor and armor piercing weapons, so for instance swords would be terrible for AP, whereas axes would do better and maces would be the go-to option, but would be the slower of the bunch. That's why I mentioned giving great weapons high AP damage, it's for gamaeplay purposes, I tried to differentiate the 2 handed warrior role much more from the regular 1 handed.
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Post by CHRrOME on Mar 7, 2018 0:02:59 GMT
I have to admit, the swords being - in general - so much weaker than their axe peers is what drove me to two-handers for my - to date - only warrior playthrough. Swords are - in my opinion - much cooler than axes or maces and seem to fit the characters of Cassandra and Blackwall better as well. In the end, I decided to just stick with dual wielding rogues For me the worst type of weapon was bows. My first playtrhough was an archer and bows suck so much. When a 1 handed sword dealt 300 damage, a bow of the same level dealt 220 tops. That's why after that, I always specced Cole and Sera as dagger users. The time to kill is so goddamn slow, plus archery was pretty bad in general. At range you'll miss all your shots if the AI strafe from left to right at snail's pace.
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Post by Vall on Mar 7, 2018 1:19:47 GMT
Not sure whether they would be subclasses, cross-classes, plain extra classes or whatever, but I reaaally want hybrids for next DA, of the Vanguard, Infiltrator, Sentinel sort, so Mage/Warrior, Warrior/Rogue, Mage/Rogue (Battlemage, Duelist, Spellthief?). If weapon restriction are kept, give each of them their own weapon combinations (single 1h blade for Battlemage and Spellthief, sword/dagger for duelist maybe?). They could either share specializations with pure classes (with some tweaks probably), or have their own unique ones. And specialisations could possibly alter what kind of armor you wear...say you have Battlemage with Arcane Warrior and Knight Enchanter specs, baseline armor would be medium and then AW would push you into heavy armor for protection while KE would use light armor and barriers. Oh and I don't care how I get them, but I want elemental cones back! ...just throwing ideas out there.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2018 16:02:31 GMT
I think mages should stay mages because magic is an important distinction between people. Especially if they are from Tevinter. There's nothing wrong with cast from HP blood mages, but they should stay mages.
Warriors should keep to tanking and controlling battle while rogues should focus on sneak attacks and surprise. Don't let characters overlap, it helps with replay factors.
As for classes, Inqusition's system worked best. Only let me choose one Prestige class, but make it give permanent boosts (like DA2 did, only stronger because you only get one this time). With plenty of slightly-more powerful skills to encourage you to use them. Warriors should get Berserkers (high damage for more stamina), Templar (higher damage against mages/Fade Creatures, and protection from them), or Champion (defensive techniques)
Mages should get Blood Magic (cast spells from HP and controlling enemies), Spirit Healer (a support-type class focusing on buffs and healing), and Force Mage (Focusing on hard hitting attacks)
Rogues should get Shadow (striking from Stealth), Assassin (high damage flank strikes and poison) and an Archery class that focuses on doing battle from a distance.
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Post by jjdxb on Mar 18, 2018 17:59:35 GMT
Mages can stay mages, but the issue with mixed classes is that the magic-mixed classes can only happen if you were a mage to begin with. You can't be born a non-mage and learn to be an arcane warrior, for example. I drew a diagram to explain this. In the DA universe, only certain people can wield magic and this is is determined at birth. So really, as far as game mechanics with regards to how people treat you is concerned, mage and it's mixed classes are all just mages.
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Post by Vall on Mar 18, 2018 18:30:51 GMT
I think mages should stay mages because magic is an important distinction between people. Especially if they are from Tevinter. There's nothing wrong with cast from HP blood mages, but they should stay mages. I never really understood a sentiment. How does a mage who chooses to pick up a blade and form their combat style around it cease to be a mage? Actually staves being mage exclusive weapons in DA is the thing that makes little sense, as apostates would then intentionally avoid being anywhere near them to avoid being found out. So really, Bethany and mage Hawke should have avoided using staves at all costs while living in Kirkwall. It doesn't really matter for Inquisitor though, since everyone knows they are a mage if they are.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 18, 2018 18:47:23 GMT
I never really understood a sentiment. How does a mage who chooses to pick up a blade and form their combat style around it cease to be a mage? I don't think that phrasing is meant to suggest that mages are no longer mages, but that, in adding a classless system (like Skyrim) you take away part of the DA lore that makes it what it is. "Mages staying mages" simply means that they should be their own distinct class. There is nothing that says a mage can't be skilled in physical combat. A mage is something you are, not something you do. In fact, an interesting character type would be to have an apostate mage that learned to control their powers well enough to hide it, becoming skilled in physical combat. This might have lead to an interesting character specialization if they used their powers to subtly enhance their martial prowess. Of course, this would have worked better in DAO or DA2, or even DAI as the mage situation was still up in the air at that point. But you can't have the opposite: a warrior/rogue that learns magic. People don't learn to be a mage in Thedas. I want it to stay that way, hence, I want "mages to stay mages."
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Post by Vall on Mar 18, 2018 19:30:49 GMT
I never really understood a sentiment. How does a mage who chooses to pick up a blade and form their combat style around it cease to be a mage? I don't think that phrasing is meant to suggest that mages are no longer mages, but that, in adding a classless system (like Skyrim) you take away part of the DA lore that makes it what it is. "Mages staying mages" simply means that they should be their own distinct class. There is nothing that says a mage can't be skilled in physical combat. A mage is something you are, not something you do. In fact, an interesting character type would be to have an apostate mage that learned to control their powers well enough to hide it, becoming skilled in physical combat. This might have lead to an interesting character specialization if they used their powers to subtly enhance their martial prowess. Of course, this would have worked better in DAO or DA2, or even DAI as the mage situation was still up in the air at that point. But you can't have the opposite: a warrior/rogue that learns magic. People don't learn to be a mage in Thedas. I want it to stay that way, hence, I want "mages to stay mages." I get that and you mentioned it, which is why I didn't mention it when you said it. Duskwanderer who I did quote didn't say that, but I guess I should have said that I mean it within the context of the thread, which is supposed to be about subclasses and not classless system which has its own thread (though even there you could just have 2 soft classes, mage and non mage, which would determine how you are treated...granted that wouldn't be entirely classless, but it would fit the lore). But there are people who seem completely against mage being anywhere near melee weapons or having any skills for them, that's what I don't get. Spellsword type subclass for a mage would still be a mage, they would simply use a sword instead of a staff.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 18, 2018 20:25:34 GMT
You can't be born a non-mage and learn to be an arcane warrior, for example. For this reason I thought that spirit warrior spec in DAA was dumb. (Well, obviously not for Justice, but for the PC.) Even the description seems like something they shoehorned in to make it work for the player, but doesn't make sense with ALL of the other lore we've seen surrounding mages, magic, and spirits. I play warrior, but wouldn't want want this spec available again for the player unless they devise a way to explain it that doesn't seem lame and contrived.
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Post by jadedragon on Mar 19, 2018 18:10:11 GMT
It would be cool if they found a way to make Dreamer a specialization.
While on the subject of mages I think mages should have a support route not really a full subclass but how rogues and warriors are different by weapon choice I think Mages can have a divide by school of magic. There are 4 schools of magic but these 4 schools are apart of 2 schools of magic. Energy and Matter. These can be what splits the Mage class into two types of Mages.
Energy Mages focus on Primal(Elemental) spells and Spirit spells. Basically mages from DAI primarily had Energy school spells. These mages are the classic nukers using elemental magic to dish out big AOE damage and other classic spells we are use to. The Spirit tree needs to be reexpanded to include more of the antimagic spells and spells like Crushing prison and walking bomb.
Matter Mages are when things get different but not really because it's just brining back the Creation and Entropy trees. These Mages are the ones who play more of a support role but at the same time can make gameplay really fun. Setting glyphs as traps for enemies or buffs for allies. Debuffing enemies with Hexs or buffing allies with spells like Haste or healing them over time. These mages control the tempo of the battlefield. Matter Mages have the most status effecting skills then any class making them perfect to set up combos.
Now Energy and Matter Mages are no different from a DW and Archer Rogue. Meaning if you pick Matter Mage as your starting class you won't be locked from the other spells in anyway. Since mages have that advantage over the other classes I also suggest including a feature called synergy. With Synergy it takes the concept of Mastering the magic schools. Put all your skill points in Primal school well you will get a Elemental damage buff. Creation school then healing buff. Put all your points in both Primal and Spirit trees then you will get a Energy Mage buff.
Just like the other classes both Energy and Matter Mages will have at least one tree by both that won't effect it's class buffs but instead be a happy middle ground to give Matter Mages spells to cast damage. Basically the Arcane tree for Origins and maybe a new tree.
This concept while new in practice these are builds that can all be made in origins so it's not new to the Dragon Age universe. You can make a mage who puts all there talents in Creation and Entropy trees. This just simplies the Mage class while still keeping it's depth and slightly expanding it to were it's like a 4th class.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2018 19:20:01 GMT
I'd like to see some form of new warrior/mage hybrid class.
So far, we've had the arcane warrior, which is not bad but it does come from the mage class and is still closer to a melee caster. On the warrior side, we had the templar, who's non-warrior abilities almost exclusively focus on disrupting mages and IMO has been consistently underwhelming when compared to other warrior specializations.
I'd like to see a kind of warrior with elemental casting abilities, that can create e.g. elementally buff his weapon or use melee and some defense focused spells. How would that work in the story, getting these kind of mage-like abilities without being a mage ifrst? Not sure, but I think there is plenty of wiggle room to come up with something. It doesn't need to be some general thing in the universe but could be something specific to the protagonist, something that happens to him in relation with the fade throughout the story and therefore unlocks the specialization.
In general, I'd like them to go back to introducing the subclasses in the story. Origins did that really well, where your companions actually teach you stuff, like you can learn to become a shapeshifter from Morrigan, etc. DA:I really underwhelmed me with the teachers and their stupid trials. E.g., maybe a companion in the nect game might be an Avvar warrior or some wildling from the Korcari wilds or something and thus, one of the warrior specializations would be a barbarian kind of thing. Stuff like that.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 21, 2018 19:22:33 GMT
Templar and/or Knight Enchanter Assassin please.
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Post by Vall on Mar 21, 2018 20:16:33 GMT
Templar and/or Knight Enchanter Assassin please. Awesome!
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 2, 2018 15:15:36 GMT
For this reason I thought that spirit warrior spec in DAA was dumb. (Well, obviously not for Justice, but for the PC.) Even the description seems like something they shoehorned in to make it work for the player, but doesn't make sense with ALL of the other lore we've seen surrounding mages, magic, and spirits. Actually, if you think about it, essentially a Seeker is a Spirit Warrior. This isn't obvious in game because Cassandra has the Templar spec, which was all wrong because Seekers don't need lyrium for their powers; they get them from the contact with a faith spirit. That issue was rather fudged in the explanation but it is the only conclusion you can come to, particularly when Cassandra explains what their unique powers are. In fact the Seeker's ability to set the lyrium aflame in a mage's blood is very similar to the blood magic spell, blood wound. So reading between the lines it would seem that the Seeker is in fact an abomination using blood magic, which accounts for why a non-mage is able to have mage-like abilities. However, it would explain why Seekers cannot be affected by blood magic mind control or possession, because someone is already in residence to prevent it. Anyway, with us moving to Tevinter, having a Spirit Warrior spec would make sense because if anyone would have figured out how to utilise spirits in that way, it would be the Tevinter mages. To my mind, it would be connected with the specialist mage killers that are trained up from promising non-mage recruits, to give them an edge when going up against rogue mages, who would likely be employing blood magic against them.
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Post by grallon on Apr 2, 2018 19:00:52 GMT
I would prefer if the classes were organized along the main divide of: mage - non-mage. It should be possible to overlap between sub-classes, if only in order to increase the variety of possible builds. For instance the archetypal priests of other RPG systems can wield magic and use weapons (maces) simultaneously.
There should also be general all purpose skills which you could select as electives - such as opening locks. It's always very annoying that such a skill is limited to the rogue profile for if I'm not a rogue, don't recruit Cole and don't bring Varric along then I'm screwed when it comes to opening locks.
Furthermore I would separate the active skills from the passive ones - so you don't loose one point buying an active skill you never use only because you want the passive one that comes after it. Finally I would increase the number of potential upgrades so you can really boost a particular skillset.
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 3, 2018 4:47:17 GMT
I think a Fog Warrior subclass/spec would be neat. Somewhere between a warrior and a rogue. A warrior who obstructs their opponent's view and uses stealth but fights like... well, a warrior.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 3, 2018 7:08:45 GMT
I think a Fog Warrior subclass/spec would be neat. Hm... this seems like it would be a cultural clash. I'm reluctant to use the phrase "cultural appropriation," but that's what it would strike me as. Fenris describes them as a unique people with their own culture. It's not just a fighting style, like berserking, that can be taught to anyone. Let me use a real-world example. What if there were a game that featured a Maasai warrior spec available to all players, regardless of their origin? I would say that was inappropriate for someone who is not of the Maasai culture. Now, if they returned to the DA2-style of unique follower specs, and we had a Fog Warrior follower with their own unique spec, that seems neat. To use a dumber example, Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai.
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Apr 28, 2024 18:45:53 GMT
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Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 3, 2018 7:26:08 GMT
I think a Fog Warrior subclass/spec would be neat. Hm... this seems like it would be a cultural clash. I'm reluctant to use the phrase "cultural appropriation," but that's what it would strike me as. Fenris describes them as a unique people with their own culture. It's not just a fighting style, like berserking, that can be taught to anyone. Let me use a real-world example. What if there were a game that featured a Maasai warrior spec available to all players, regardless of their origin? I would say that was inappropriate for someone who is not of the Maasai culture. Now, if they returned to the DA2-style of unique follower specs, and we had a Fog Warrior follower with their own unique spec, that seems neat. To use a dumber example, Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai. I'd love culturally or race specific subclasses. Only elves should be Arcane Warriors, and maybe only humans should be able to pick Templar. It would help races to feel a bit more special instead of just looks and some modified dialogue.
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Friend of Red Jenny
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vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 3, 2018 7:31:36 GMT
I think a Fog Warrior subclass/spec would be neat. Hm... this seems like it would be a cultural clash. I'm reluctant to use the phrase "cultural appropriation," but that's what it would strike me as. Fenris describes them as a unique people with their own culture. It's not just a fighting style, like berserking, that can be taught to anyone. Let me use a real-world example. What if there were a game that featured a Maasai warrior spec available to all players, regardless of their origin? I would say that was inappropriate for someone who is not of the Maasai culture. Now, if they returned to the DA2-style of unique follower specs, and we had a Fog Warrior follower with their own unique spec, that seems neat. To use a dumber example, Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai. Guess it depends how they write the Fog Warriors? I don't think we know enough about them to say whether it'd be cultural appropriation. Berserker skills can be taught to anyone (a la Ash Warriors) but they're dwarven in origin. We don't know whether there was originally a heavy cultural component there or what. I hope they do bring back unique companion specs. I'd like to see this be one of them.
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davesin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 489 Likes: 859
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davesin
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August 2016
davesin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by davesin on Apr 3, 2018 8:04:58 GMT
Cora: Peebee, I'm not appropriating your culture, I swear! Peebee: Huh? What?
As long as there's someone willing to train you, I don't see why you shouldn't learn foreign fighting style. If it gives you an edge in combat, good. I mean, I doubt anybody here relocated their points because Free Marcher Inquisitor SaS warrior would be using Orleasian Chevalier's technigues. Of course, if Fog Warrior's skills are heavily guarded secret, I would expect good explanation for protagonist to be able to learn them.
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