inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Sifr on Mar 27, 2018 7:57:45 GMT
Take Corypheus and the Well of Sorrows. Since we spend much of the game dealing with his minions rather than the man himself, what was he doing all that time? Surely the sensible thing for him to do, considering the Well of Sorrows was always known to him and he wanted the knowledge within it, would have been to have gone there straight away, not wait until his forces had been decimated by the Inquisition. It's mentioned by Leliana that Corypheus had been scouring Elven ruins ever since Haven looking for "something". Morrigan believed that he was looking for an Eluvian and we do see that one lies within the Temple. Her belief was that he wanted to enter the Fade via the Crossroads, but we later learn (if OGB!Kieran exists) that with enough power, an Eluvian can be redirected straight into the Fade. However even if Corypheus had already previously found an Eluvian, unless it was left unlocked, he'd need to find the right key to open it. That's why, for all the grief she receives in the Temple for being "wrong", I think Morrigan was actually spot-on about Corypheus' ultimate goal there. Obtaining the Well of Sorrows was step one in unlocking the Eluvian, since it gave access to the key. The power and knowledge from the Well were just convenient bonuses. (It also follows why Corypheus wouldn't have found any Eluvians before this point. Many were pilfered from Elven ruins by Tevinters and Orlesians over the millennia and we learn find out in Trespasser the Qunari have been hording/destroying any Eluvians they can find) Corypheus states in Haven that the Anchor was permanently bound to the Inquisitor. From Trespasser, it also seems like Solas made the Anchor to function in tandem with a living host (since he had intended to use it himself), so cutting off the Inquisitor's hand would render it inert/useless. And Corypheus did make the attempt to kill the Inquisitor, albeit a few seconds later. But not before he'd made the huge mistake of throwing them next to a conveniently placed catapult. Chalk that mistake up to him letting his frustration get the better of him. His reaction in the Temple of Mythal and during the final battle back up the idea that Corypheus isn't that composed when things don't go his way. I suspect that the Qunari only learned about the Agents of Fen'Harel during the interval between Inquisition and Trespasser. Solas does mention that both his and the Qunari spies within in the Inquisition had begun tripping over each other, so that could have been how the Qunari first found out about their existence? Because the Agents of Fen'Harel are elves and the Orb that Corypheus carried was Elven, the Qunari might have suspected that one these agents first gave it to him. From there, they deduced that Solas was one of them, since he did fit the bill. He showed up immediately after the Breach, was present at the formation of the Inquisition, helped lead them to Skyhold and later mysteriously disappeared right after Corypheus was defeated. Wouldn't have been that difficult for the Qunari to have connected some of these dots. Leliana even was starting to put some things together, from Solas' updated codex entry post-epilogue; Inquisitor,
Despite my efforts, I have been unable to locate Solas. From the site of your battle with Corypheus, he was last seen headed west, still distraught over the destruction of the orb Corypheus carried. From there he disappeared, evading my people so easily and so completely that I am forced to wonder how much he knew about them.
When Solas initially approached the Inquisition and offered aid, I questioned him extensively about his background and history. He was evasive, but he did give the name of the village where he grew up, noting that it was small, unlikely to appear on any map.
I hate loose ends, so I kept a few of my agents searching, to verify his story. They recently located the village... or what remains of it. It is a ruin, as it has been for centuries, it's name preserved only in degraded form in Ancient Tevinter mysteries. Whoever Solas truly is, where he came from, he has deceived us from the very start.
I apologise for not investigating this more thoroughly while Solas was here. He was clearly helping us, and other matters were of greater urgency, but it was an oversight nevertheless, given how little he shared with us. It is not clear what his plans are, if any, but I will continue to search.
Leliana.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Mar 27, 2018 12:37:09 GMT
Solas is Loki, the trickster. Which means he can bring people to do dumb stuff while making them think they're smart. As for the idiot ball, I firmly expect almost everyone to have it at times. Bioware have proven, again and again, that they can't write any plots more complex than "defeat the insane supervillain" without abundant stupidity on almost everyone's part. Especially, since they can't write intelligent villains, they have to make the protagonists dumb in order for the villains to be a challenge. Of course I hope it will be different this time, but I did that after ME1, ME2, ME3 and DA2, and it was never different. Ah, nostalgy. Bioware's early games weren't nearly as bad in this. I blame the switch to cinematic presentation.
|
|
inherit
1482
0
3,373
Fredward
1,342
September 2016
fredward
http://bsn.boards.net/board/40/dragon-age-4
|
Post by Fredward on Mar 27, 2018 14:32:06 GMT
It'd be a crime to make Solas dumb cuz plot after the setup he's had. I've also been wishing for a protagonist whose at least as genre savvy as I am. Like if I can be suspicious and want to take precautions so should my protag.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Mar 27, 2018 20:02:40 GMT
It'd be a crime to make Solas dumb cuz plot after the setup he's had. I've also been wishing for a protagonist whose at least as genre savvy as I am. Like if I can be suspicious and want to take precautions so should my protag. I recall with considerable fondness the villain of "Spellforce: The Order of Dawn". His lines and his voice acting were horribly stereotypical, but he was smarter than your protagonist: He led you around by the nose and made you do his bidding while you thought you were fighting him. Most of the time you genuinely couldn't see it coming while it was perfectly obvious in hindsight, but sometimes you even knew something was fishy, but there was still no other reasonable choice but to follow the path laid out for you. Gods, was that annoying when he gloated about having played you *yet again*, but this was an antagonist I respected. You eventually kill his Dragon, but you never beat him in that game, since eventually you find out you'll have to let him follow his plans in order to save the world. I wouldn't mind Solas being of a similar kind. After all, he has thousands of years of experience and he's the archetypical trickster. I just have no confidence in Bioware's writers being able to write such a plot.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Apr 28, 2024 16:29:04 GMT
26,666
gervaise21
10,788
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Mar 27, 2018 20:02:51 GMT
That's why, for all the grief she receives in the Temple for being "wrong", I think Morrigan was actually spot-on about Corypheus' ultimate goal there. Obtaining the Well of Sorrows was step one in unlocking the Eluvian, since it gave access to the key. The power and knowledge from the Well were just convenient bonuses. Whilst he may have been after the eluvian as well, the fact is that the Well of Sorrows was not simply a convenient bonus to going there. He went there for the knowledge of the Well. That is why one of his lieutenants needed to be the "Vessel" because it would seem he knew it would be risky for him to access the Well himself. This is far more apparent if you do Champions of the Just because in that version it is Calpernia who is to be the vessel and he has been perfecting the means to control her once she had drunk from it. (I dare say this would not have been such of a problem with Samson because of the control Corypheus has over anyone with the taint). It may well be that Corypheus hoped that the knowledge of the Well by itself would give him the means to enter the Fade, without the need for the eluvian, but it is true that whether he knew it was there or not, he would have been happy to utilise the eluvaian and the Well would have provided the key.
|
|
Dabrikishaw
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
Posts: 182 Likes: 204
inherit
1347
0
204
Dabrikishaw
182
Aug 29, 2016 20:21:41 GMT
August 2016
dabrikishaw
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
|
Post by Dabrikishaw on Mar 27, 2018 22:12:59 GMT
The nature of these games means most everyone will be incompetent in some way in order to allow the player to matter in any significant way.
|
|
inherit
1482
0
3,373
Fredward
1,342
September 2016
fredward
http://bsn.boards.net/board/40/dragon-age-4
|
Post by Fredward on Mar 28, 2018 7:15:50 GMT
It'd be a crime to make Solas dumb cuz plot after the setup he's had. I've also been wishing for a protagonist whose at least as genre savvy as I am. Like if I can be suspicious and want to take precautions so should my protag. I recall with considerable fondness the villain of "Spellforce: The Order of Dawn". His lines and his voice acting were horribly stereotypical, but he was smarter than your protagonist: He led you around by the nose and made you do his bidding while you thought you were fighting him. Most of the time you genuinely couldn't see it coming while it was perfectly obvious in hindsight, but sometimes you even knew something was fishy, but there was still no other reasonable choice but to follow the path laid out for you. Gods, was that annoying when he gloated about having played you *yet again*, but this was an antagonist I respected. You eventually kill his Dragon, but you never beat him in that game, since eventually you find out you'll have to let him follow his plans in order to save the world. I wouldn't mind Solas being of a similar kind. After all, he has thousands of years of experience and he's the archetypical trickster. I just have no confidence in Bioware's writers being able to write such a plot. Depending on how cynically you want to interpret Solas' actions and motivations during Inquisition (and Trespasser) he's already ticking some of those boxes. I don't want the idiot ball so firmly in my protagonist's hands though, if Solas' ultimate goal is beneficial it'd be infantilizing, you'd be the useful idiot and if his goal isn't ultimately beneficial and he's always and inevitably two steps ahead regardless of what you do it'd be annoying. Especially since you'd probably stop him anyway but then it'd be almost accidental/stumbling into exactly where you needed to be or some deus ex machina that does the heavy lifting. I want them to elaborate on what they did in Trespasser, you gathered clues and it opened a dialogue option. Have that play out in notes, quests (war table and otherwise), missable dialogue options etc. The consequences don't have to be massive since I don't think they'd want to overtly penalize someone for not gathering these but just a few things that makes it feel like your protag isn't constantly playing catch up. One of the things I'm hoping is the case is that the long gestation period DA4 seems to be having will allow some of these things to be baked in from the start. It seems difficult/impossible to implement if you've already built 3/4 of the game and you need to work retroactively but much simpler if you've been planning it from the start.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
9,897
Ieldra
4,771
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Mar 28, 2018 8:46:23 GMT
I recall with considerable fondness the villain of "Spellforce: The Order of Dawn". His lines and his voice acting were horribly stereotypical, but he was smarter than your protagonist: He led you around by the nose and made you do his bidding while you thought you were fighting him. Most of the time you genuinely couldn't see it coming while it was perfectly obvious in hindsight, but sometimes you even knew something was fishy, but there was still no other reasonable choice but to follow the path laid out for you. Gods, was that annoying when he gloated about having played you *yet again*, but this was an antagonist I respected. You eventually kill his Dragon, but you never beat him in that game, since eventually you find out you'll have to let him follow his plans in order to save the world. I wouldn't mind Solas being of a similar kind. After all, he has thousands of years of experience and he's the archetypical trickster. I just have no confidence in Bioware's writers being able to write such a plot. Depending on how cynically you want to interpret Solas' actions and motivations during Inquisition (and Trespasser) he's already ticking some of those boxes. I don't want the idiot ball so firmly in my protagonist's hands though, if Solas' ultimate goal is beneficial it'd be infantilizing, you'd be the useful idiot and if his goal isn't ultimately beneficial and he's always and inevitably two steps ahead regardless of what you do it'd be annoying. Especially since you'd probably stop him anyway but then it'd be almost accidental/stumbling into exactly where you needed to be or some deus ex machina that does the heavy lifting. I want them to elaborate on what they did in Trespasser, you gathered clues and it opened a dialogue option. Have that play out in notes, quests (war table and otherwise), missable dialogue options etc. The consequences don't have to be massive since I don't think they'd want to overtly penalize someone for not gathering these but just a few things that makes it feel like your protag isn't constantly playing catch up. One of the things I'm hoping is the case is that the long gestation period DA4 seems to be having will allow some of these things to be baked in from the start. It seems difficult/impossible to implement if you've already built 3/4 of the game and you need to work retroactively but much simpler if you've been planning it from the start. I basically agree, except that to have the idiot ball, you have to actually be an idiot, i.e. you do the stupid while you should know better. Doing your best but being outwitted because you lack certain key pieces of information is not being an idiot. In fact, I would find it disappointing if you were not outwitted once or twice by an archetypical trickster like Solas. The only question is whether Bioware can write a plot where the protagonist is genuinely outwitted, rather than being an idiot. And of course, even if they manage it, some people willl complain about the protagonist being an idiot afterwards because hindsight is always perfect.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
Apr 28, 2024 16:29:04 GMT
26,666
gervaise21
10,788
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Mar 28, 2018 18:28:47 GMT
Bioware's early games weren't nearly as bad in this. I blame the switch to cinematic presentation. Actually they have always had the tendency to make you do something incredibly stupid in order to advance the plot the way they have planned. For example, back in Baldurs Gate 2 you are meant to be going to rendezvous with your allies before going for a showdown with a load of vampires. Now Baldurs Gate series had day/night cycles, so naturally I set out in the middle of the day, when vampires are hidden from the sun, so I could meet up with my allies in safety. So what did the writers do, they had it contrived so that no matter what time you set out, you always arrived at the Graveyard after the dark and vampires immediately attack you. This was annoying both because it was forced on you and my PC would never have been so stupid as to arrive there after dark. In the same game they had you walking into an obvious trap and not recognising the very distinctive voice of your enemy when he is standing right in front of you, instead having to endure him taking you on a tour of the asylum before you are knocked out by sleeping draught before you can take action against him. So forcing the PC into being stupid through a contrived plotline is nothing new.
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Apr 18, 2018 14:40:26 GMT
The dalish. Almost assuredly. It makes ZERO sense that they would want to follow their religions literal Satan, but I fully expect Bioware to have them committed to Solas' cause. Solas is more Loki then Satan. (Probably a clue how he gained power ). And apparently there are Dalish cults that worship their Satan. Hell there are real world cults that worship Satan. Sure, but Satan is a deceiver too. And Loki isn't Norse mythology's Big Bad, so he isn't the best analogy.
|
|
inherit
749
0
Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,653
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
|
Post by Iddy on Apr 18, 2018 14:46:09 GMT
The dalish. Almost assuredly. It makes ZERO sense that they would want to follow their religions literal Satan, but I fully expect Bioware to have them committed to Solas' cause. Oh, they're already there.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
31,231
colfoley
16,562
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Apr 18, 2018 20:24:58 GMT
Solas is more Loki then Satan. (Probably a clue how he gained power ). And apparently there are Dalish cults that worship their Satan. Hell there are real world cults that worship Satan. Sure, but Satan is a deceiver too. And Loki isn't Norse mythology's Big Bad, so he isn't the best analogy. I'll concede the point about Satan... which is a really weird thing to say. But Solas really isn't the Dalish big bad. Sure if you ask them they might say Fen'harel is the most horrible thing ever but that's just because they've forgotten most of their history.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Apr 18, 2018 21:24:31 GMT
Solas already has a far firmer grip on the idiot ball than he does on the Orb he stupidly gave to Corypheus, and I expect him to keep hold of it in DA4. To be fair, he did kind of expect him to just up and die trying to open it, and took the chance since he couldn't do it himself. Maybe he'll find a second orb and try to open it and it'll blow up in his face.
|
|