Elfen Lied
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Fatebinder
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Post by Elfen Lied on Apr 3, 2018 14:33:12 GMT
Ideally, sure. Or it should be an optional scene. But I have yet to see a video game sex scene (or indeed, most movie or tv sex scenes) where it isn't' simply a tawdry example of exhibitionism. I can think up more more romantic scenes in my own mind. I think it's a matter of taste (as I obviously disagree), and possibly ideology (on your part, but that's just a guess). As for the scene being optional, sure, I think every cut-scene should be optional and skipable. Well, considering that sex exists and it's (usually) part of our lives I can't see anything wrong with their inclusion in every media. On the other side I don't consider them a "mandatory" thing as often happens. Seriously, how many times there is a sex scene in a movie just because "there must be one"?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 3, 2018 16:29:04 GMT
I’d much rather the resources that go into making an explicit sex scene instead be used to create two paths for the romances. So one path would be sexual with a FTB scene and the other would be non-sexual with a different scene of equal content to the sex one. At least with most romances, since I get some romances require sex to fit their character, but by that token there should be some romances that are completely non-sexual as well.
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MediocreOgre
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 3, 2018 20:12:18 GMT
Yeah it is heartening to know EA seems supportive of BW and in particular their writers. But, the phrasing that when BW went to EA about characters like Krem and EA’s response was concern that they should “do it right” is kind of troubling because we are assuming they mean represent a ftm person in a “good” way when they could be more concerned with them being represented in a way that is safe to the “majority” of gamers and not in presenting LGBTQ people in ways that are satisfying to LGBTQ people. And after MEA and the backlash BW received I would still be skepticle that what EA thinks is the right way to represent LGBTQ people is really about LGBTQ representation for the sake of telling interesting, realistic, human, affective stories and not because EA has done the blood calculus and determined the formulaic right way to do it to appease lgbtq gamers while catering to non lgbtq gamers. But I do think this is fairly good news. Just good news that should be tempered by what happened in MEA. I'm sorry, but gamers are not even a class of people. It is a subculture based on a hobby. And even then, when did BioWare poorly represented gamers? Only few times did BioWare mentioned gamers and gaming culture, and it was mainly humorous but not mocking way. Cause, you know, most of BioWare devs are gamers too? Also there is no formulaic way to appease LGBT folk, like you already pointed out backlash ME:A got. Which BioWare later fixed with minor dialogue editing for Hainly Abrams and recorded new lines and animations for gay romance for male Ryder and Jaal. So first one was an honest mistake at editing part, while other overlooked to give more then two gay men romances( it was impossible to get achievement of three different romances if you played exclusively gay Ryder, unlike with straight male and female Ryder and lesbian Ryder). Also what's with "appeasing LGBT gamers while catering to non-LGBT gamers" part? Are you saying BioWare is catering to homophobes, transgender denialists? To people who want to pretend whole LGBT people do not exist, therefor everyone should be assumed as cisgendered heterosexuals? I mean, what do you mean by this? Your first point has not much to do with what I said. I said that representing lgbtq characters “right” to EA might be corporate speak to catering to straight gamers. Look it up. Lgbtq characters being written largely for straight fantasies of lgbtq people is a thing that permeates all media not just video games. This also gets to your last question. In media lgbtq content is often put in media only when they want to moralize to straight people about something where as straight characters don’t have that limiting baggage. I’ll get to this later again but an example from both DA and MEA is Dorian’s personal arc and Gil respectively. These types of lgbtq characters designed for straight people to learn a lesson can be good, but it is debatable whether they should burden the romance plots. And it gets into the issue having your only lgbtq characters be there to teach lessons to straight people being boring, lazy, and crap. Your second point is assuming intent matters. We assess things like video games by largely what they contain inside because most people will never know the context. Hence I think the EA mandate of do LGBTQ stuff “right” has to evaluated by the content of BW games. DAI was fairly good. MEA was a horror story and the whole time LGBTQ players asked about LGBTQ characters and romances we got misleading information that was sometimes wrong and the old maxim of “it has to make sense” which was used to justify no gaylien and no squaddie. That “make sense” mandate/excuse sounds too much like EA wanting LGBTQ stuff done “right” when no one can say for certain, given the source material, what they meant. It also makes people wonder if they are really writing lgbtq content that is enjoyable, original, and good or for the purpose of soapboxing some issue to straight people. Or maybe we should require all straight characters be written to remind us gays why straights are people too. Because I need to be reminded.
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 3, 2018 21:13:08 GMT
When it comes to "investing more in the depiction of the most popular options", I think Gaider said it best: We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.
And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.
And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible. My preference is that everybody gets a couple of quality romances, with the amount of content more or less equally distributed. I'm fine with fade-to-black for everyone if the alternative is straight guys getting saucy nekkid romance scenes and everybody else getting the second-rate shoddy version or nothing at all. Seems that the bolded somewhat contradicts his general attitude on the subject. All the noise about who "deserves" what is irrelevant. It's a product, and it's made according to popular demand (or what they guesstimate that it is according to their surveys etc.). That's all it was, and that's all it will ever be (for the most part anyway). When ideology takes over, the business side will suffer, and the ideologues will hear about it. In regards to numbers, let's put it like this: One can't eat the cake and leave it whole, you can't on one hand claim "privilege" and "oppressed minority" status, and on the other hand claim that the numbers are equal. This is hardly a conspiracy, there's more content that caters to straight audience simply because the large majority of people (and gamers) are interested in that content. The thing is, if you take the idea that every small minority needs "equal representation" to its inevitable extreme end, no game will ever be made, because there's always a smaller minority that you aren't representing, and there's always resources that you could use for said "representation" that are now being "wasted" on the story itself (or any number of other things). And as Gaider is not even a part of Bioware, his opinions are not particularly relevant at this point. But funnily enough I agree with you, at this point if Bioware is going to be all about "representation", I'd rather see FTB than a monumental amount of resources wasted on 16 romance arcs and their respective sexy-times cut-scenes. Different priorities, I suppose. DAI didn't have to cater to straight guys at the expense of others in order to make a profit. At the end of the day I'm never going to feel like straight people should get a bigger piece of the pie simply because there's more of them. My money's just as good, and when I play a single-player RPG I want to feel as engrossed and included as any straight dude.
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Post by isaidlunch on Apr 4, 2018 4:35:31 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued.
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Elfen Lied
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Fatebinder
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Post by Elfen Lied on Apr 4, 2018 11:44:27 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued. I never understood who should it be catered to. And neither did they, probably.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 4, 2018 14:49:43 GMT
I’d much rather the resources that go into making an explicit sex scene instead be used to create two paths for the romances. So one path would be sexual with a FTB scene and the other would be non-sexual with a different scene of equal content to the sex one. At least with most romances, since I get some romances require sex to fit their character, but by that token there should be some romances that are completely non-sexual as well. There's that. But I'd also like to see the romances develop more over the course of the entire game. Little asides, bonus conversations, and such. As it is, they are increasing feeling like "press flirt button for sexitimes", and that just feels shallow. I liked how in DA2, I could invite Merrill to move in, how that alters her codex entry, and other companions remark on your relationship (I think Anders does this as well?). I like how in DAO, the "bark" you get when you click on a romanced character actually changes. I like how Josephine lets you win at Wicked Grace if you are in a romance with her. Heck, I even like how a couple of DAI romances could get married in Trespasser! These are not big CGI events. It's a bunch of little things scattered across the story. Someone earlier said that "sex exists", well, that's true. But it's not the only thing that exists. There's a thousand other steps that lead up to it. And many people take their time to reach "the money shot" Months, years, sometimes a religious figure or a judge makes things official first. But there's still those thousand smaller steps to take, which not likely to be as expensive as mocapping sex scenes, that can be inserted into the game to simulate a developing relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 16:25:27 GMT
The original post on reddit was deleted. I guess it was used as a source for a news article that Gaider said was inaccurate. I don't know the details.
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Post by phoray on Apr 4, 2018 17:52:09 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued. Widest audience needed for women to feel betrayed? Chances would have been super slim if he was racegated
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Post by hivemind on Apr 4, 2018 21:15:01 GMT
EA unintentionally killed BioWare by giving them a free pass for a lot of failures. It's funny how EA never goes easy on its developer except for BioWare.
When DA2 failed, EA didn't restructured BW. When SWTOR flat out missed all of its goals (WoW killer, remember?) and just switched to F2P, BW wasn't panished. When ME3 lead to a collossal PR disaster - again no one at BW was held responsible. BW realized themselves as being untouchables. They got the idea that no matter how bad their games would be - they wouldn't cost them job. "No effort required to stay in business". BW's takeaway from those failures was that from now on they can focus on forwarding their agendas without fears of getting out of business.
It took EA Mass Effect Andromeda to realize what kind of a creature their created. Creature that weren't able to create any good products and were only good for virtue signaling and alienating the vast majority of customers. A direct threat to business.
Remember the old days? Times of BG1-2, NWN and Kotor? When each of those games could have been the tombstone for BioWare? Back then they didn't had time for petty politics and virtue signaling. Their careers were at stake. ME2 and DAO wasn't a failure only because back in 2010s BioWare have not yet realized how stable their position is within EA. Perhaps they were afraid to disapoint their new owners even more than a financial failure so they gave everything they got for those games.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 4, 2018 21:22:02 GMT
Da2-really bad marketing campaign (when your marketing song is this is the new bleep) Dragon Age: Origins was actually the one marketed with Marilyn Manson. Origins was also marketed via chavvy booth babes at this event in London; Seriously, what were they thinking?
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Apr 4, 2018 22:27:17 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued. I never understood who should it be catered to. And neither did they, probably. Me. The person the Blackwall romance caters to is me. To be honest, it is pretty great that BioWare made a love interest just for my Dwarfquisitor. I will always remember the moment during my very first run of DAI when I put my hands over my face and said 'oh god, I am romancing Jean Valjean.' (Well, you know, if Jean Valjean killed several children instead of stealing some bread.)
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 4, 2018 23:04:39 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued. I imagine a lot more people would have romanced him if Solas and Cullen hadn't been added in. They sort of sucked up all the attention of the straight ladies. The original post on reddit was deleted. I guess it was used as a source for a news article that Gaider said was inaccurate. I don't know the details. I saw that. Kinda disappointed. I hope people took screenshots.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 5, 2018 0:27:57 GMT
I never understood who should it be catered to. And neither did they, probably. Players who might prefer a love interest to be over 40 for a change? Players who enjoy LI's with tragic backstories and baggage? Gamermd83 and Aimo? Me. The person the Blackwall romance caters to is me. To be honest, it is pretty great that BioWare made a love interest just for my Dwarfquisitor.I will always remember the moment during my very first run of DAI when I put my hands over my face and said 'oh god, I am romancing Jean Valjean.' (Well, you know, if Jean Valjean killed several children instead of stealing some bread.) Blackwall does seem the best fit for a Cadash Inquisitor, which kinda makes me wish that he'd been a dwarf instead. What if he had been a member of the Carta, who joined the Wardens (under the false name of "Blackwall") to hide after a job went very wrong, resulting in innocent deaths and landing him in hot water with his former bosses? "Revelations" in this version could have been similar as it was in the game, having him chose to take responsibility for his crime rather than relying on his Warden status as a "get out of jail free card". Or instead, have the execution of Mornay be a trap set by his former Carta bosses, but after they fail to assassinate him, they publicly out him. Could have fixed some of the issues some had (even though he was using a false name, he still is Blackwall in this version) and made him a foil to the Inquisitor (especially Cadash), someone who was blamed for a disastrous event, joined an organisation of heroes and eventually became better known by their alias ("Blackwall" and "Inquisitor").
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 5, 2018 2:34:04 GMT
Sifr MD's enthusiasm for "Ser Beefcakes" brings me endless joy. Wasn't there super early DAI concept art with a dwarf Warden, and that character eventually became Blackwall? I agree, I would've liked to have seen that.
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Post by Kabraxal on Apr 5, 2018 7:23:56 GMT
EA unintentionally killed BioWare by giving them a free pass for a lot of failures. It's funny how EA never goes easy on its developer except for BioWare. When DA2 failed, EA didn't restructured BW. When SWTOR flat out missed all of its goals (WoW killer, remember?) and just switched to F2P, BW wasn't panished. When ME3 lead to a collossal PR disaster - again no one at BW was held responsible. BW realized themselves as being untouchables. They got the idea that no matter how bad their games would be - they wouldn't cost them job. "No effort required to stay in business". BW's takeaway from those failures was that from now on they can focus on forwarding their agendas without fears of getting out of business. It took EA Mass Effect Andromeda to realize what kind of a creature their created. Creature that weren't able to create any good products and were only good for virtue signaling and alienating the vast majority of customers. A direct threat to business. Remember the old days? Times of BG1-2, NWN and Kotor? When each of those games could have been the tombstone for BioWare? Back then they didn't had time for petty politics and virtue signaling. Their careers were at stake. ME2 and DAO wasn't a failure only because back in 2010s BioWare have not yet realized how stable their position is within EA. Perhaps they were afraid to disapoint their new owners even more than a financial failure so they gave everything they got for those games. I...uh... what the fuck did I just read? It seemed like english but ended up as gibberish.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 5, 2018 7:58:46 GMT
EA is pretty much over-demonized.
As Dr. Zeschuk, God-Emperor love him, said in 2013: "The best analogy I use, in a positive way, is EA gives you enough rope to hang yourself."
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Apr 5, 2018 12:02:30 GMT
Sifr MD's enthusiasm for "Ser Beefcakes" brings me endless joy. Wasn't there super early DAI concept art with a dwarf Warden, and that character eventually became Blackwall? I agree, I would've liked to have seen that. Sometimes I just stare at that concept art and wonder what might of been. I'd love to know why he ended up a human in the final version - maybe because they wanted to tie his backstory into Orlesian politics and the Game?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 5, 2018 15:48:28 GMT
I wonder if they consider the Blackwall romance a success. They spent a lot of resources on a love interest that barely anyone pursued. He certainly has some fans. Some fiercely loyal ones. AND he's one who has an option to have sex or not (you are not required to do the "walk of shame") so that's another plus. On an unrelated note, I'm guessing by your avatar that you're also anticipating Deadfire?
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Post by phoray on Apr 5, 2018 21:26:55 GMT
I imagine a lot more people would have romanced him if Solas and Cullen hadn't been added in. They sort of sucked up all the attention of the straight ladies. Would have ended the game single. I was very upset by what he did, I sentenced his lie to become truth and turned my back on him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 5, 2018 21:30:01 GMT
I imagine a lot more people would have romanced him if Solas and Cullen hadn't been added in. They sort of sucked up all the attention of the straight ladies. Would have ended the game single. I was very upset by what he did, I sentenced his lie to become truth and turned my back on him. Yeah, I either leave him to his fate in Oralia or have him spend his life in servitude (which unfortunately results in him becoming a Grey Warden anyway pretty much negating that choice).
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Post by phoray on Apr 5, 2018 21:31:51 GMT
Would have ended the game single. I was very upset by what he did, I sentenced his lie to become truth and turned my back on him. Yeah, I either leave him to his fate in Oralia or have him spend his life in servitude (which unfortunately results in him becoming a Grey Warden anyway pretty much negating that choice). I prefer to sentence him to being an actual grey warden. I have yet to leave him to die, although becoming a Grey Warden leads to his death anyhow. At least he took some Darkspawn with him while he was at it .
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Post by Sifr on Apr 5, 2018 23:11:08 GMT
Sifr MD's enthusiasm for "Ser Beefcakes" brings me endless joy. Wasn't there super early DAI concept art with a dwarf Warden, and that character eventually became Blackwall? I agree, I would've liked to have seen that. Same, especially the banter videos where she cosplays Blackwall with the fake beard. Wasn't the Dwarf Warden character from some concept art or survey information that got leaked? I seem to vaguely recall something like this being on the old BSN, although the mods quickly took the images down and closed the threads. (Although sometimes leaks do get things wrong, what if they assumed he was a dwarf because of the beard?)
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Post by aslightjump on Apr 7, 2018 8:20:58 GMT
I will also (off-topicly) chime in with the Blackwall enjoyment. I had a wonderful playthrough where I missed one of his lock-ins and my Cadash pined and then the reveal happened and oh, the humanity! (the Dwarf-manity?) She kept him in the Inquisition and I mean she's Carta, she pulled some rough shit, she's not judging, but Blackwall could never quite build up the self-worth to take another chance on her and she remained sore at the deception for a good long while. Ooooh, it was some delicious head-canoning, I tell you. I had a ball.
Then I had an Adaar where everything went fine, and that was enjoyable as well. He doesn't fit some PC, obviously, but as a player, he's alright to me. We've had murderous love interests before, we've BEEN the murderous love interest for our companions. Anders blows up a building full of innocent people and I'll still roll his romance on a playthrough no problem even though I as a player fully know what he's capable of. Blackwall barely fazed me. At least he was trying to make up for what he did in his own back-assward way.
Plus, his voice is amazing and he looks like he smells like fresh-fallen pine needles.
On-topic: nothing about what they said about EA is surprising after Bioware shot themselves in the foot re: MEA.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 7, 2018 22:00:29 GMT
Patrick Weekes, Karin Weekes and David Gaider mentioned this at Havencon: linkSo basically the people who keep saying that BioWare would have been better without EA are wrong, as they just wouldn't exist at all. But DAO was marketed and published via EA and DA2 was the first game they made while fully under EA. This sounds strange.
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