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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 4:54:10 GMT
Yeah, you couldn't half tell either. The most powerful threat for thousands of years had been discovered, and defeated in a single game and it's not like you can easily "out epic" that, so what do they do now? Well, why even bother trying? Instead do a small, personal story in the same setti- and now everybody hates them and saying they fucked up. Booo. So how about instead do a Skyrim and Witcher open world game sprinkled with a bit of politics and ancient Gods ... The story never really recovered after Origins. It's been meandering. Still fun games, but Origins was the complete package. DA2 had the best story. The quality of the story was never the issue, the direction it took was. Similar to how people who pick up a military novel will be disgusted if it turns into a Danielle Steele romance fest midway through the series (regardless of the quality of that romance fest), people signed up for an epic story centred around your character. What they got was a story which was in no way epic where your character played no part in the events being told, as though Bioware wanted to tell a piece of in game history and you, as the player, got to watch it. Which may be part of the reason why Hudson included in Bioware's new mission statement "inspire you to become the hero of your own story" and included in the explanation "In a BioWare game, you should feel like the story is about you. You create your own character, you decide what happens next, and you become the hero." Yes he was talking a bit about multiplayer there, but I can't shake the feeling it's also got to do with DA:2 EDIT: Dragon Age significantly changes design with each iteration, with the story direction and with the overall game direction. It's the sort of stuff that gives the impression they're changing things on the fly without an overall cohesive design philosophy behind it.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on May 29, 2018 8:31:36 GMT
The quality of the story was never the issue, the direction it took was. Similar to how people who pick up a military novel will be disgusted if it turns into a Danielle Steele romance fest midway through the series (regardless of the quality of that romance fest), people signed up for an epic story centred around your character. What they got was a story which was in no way epic where your character played no part in the events being told, as though Bioware wanted to tell a piece of in game history and you, as the player, got to watch it. Which may be part of the reason why Hudson included in Bioware's new mission statement "inspire you to become the hero of your own story" and included in the explanation "In a BioWare game, you should feel like the story is about you. You create your own character, you decide what happens next, and you become the hero." Yes he was talking a bit about multiplayer there, but I can't shake the feeling it's also got to do with DA:2 EDIT: Dragon Age significantly changes design with each iteration, with the story direction and with the overall game direction. It's the sort of stuff that gives the impression they're changing things on the fly without an overall cohesive design philosophy behind it. Hawke was the hero of their own story, though. It was about a single person getting swept up in bigger events, yes, but it focused on Hawke and their quest to protect/better their family/friends/town's lot in life amidst those bigger events. They're a tragic hero, you can argue, but still definitely the hero of their own story. And DAI was the story of the Inquisition, as led by your inquisitor. They were clearly the hero there, too.
I don't know what you mean by design philosophy, so I can't speak to that.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on May 29, 2018 8:54:39 GMT
Picking up the thread of Ellis speculation re: Blizzard... they don't typically do E3 stuff, do they? I mean, they have Blizzcon for that every single year; this year's is early November. Now that you mention it, yes I think this is true. Although I vaguely recall them releasing characters to Overwatch at some event or another during the summer, so I wouldn't rule them out completely.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 8:55:57 GMT
I don't know what you mean by design philosophy, so I can't speak to that. Artists or creators sometimes get asked it. It's just a fancy pants phrase that asks what is the overall thinking/motivation/driving force/ideology behind your work. Is it supposed to be a tactical experience, hack and slash, is the story supposed to be relevant, political, epic, pure escapism (DA:O) or with heavy themes grounded in the real world (DA:2), open world experience or linear, more or less player agency. Casey Hudson calls it a "mission statement" but his statement that " We create worlds of adventure, conflict, and companionship that inspire you to become the hero of your story" is essentially a design philosophy. It was about a single person getting swept up in bigger events, yes,"In a BioWare game, you should feel like the story is about you" Is a part of Casey's mission statement. This is clearly not the case in DA:2. This is what I mean by shifting design philosophies. EDIT: Do not confuse "their own story" with "the story". Hawke may have been the hero of their own plot, sure, most people are, but not the story.EDIT 2: By "the story" it means the central events of the game, and not the central events of what's happening in Hawke's life.
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Post by Gileadan on May 29, 2018 9:21:31 GMT
Hawke was the hero of their own story, though. It was about a single person getting swept up in bigger events, yes, but it focused on Hawke and their quest to protect/better their family/friends/town's lot in life amidst those bigger events. They're a tragic hero, you can argue, but still definitely the hero of their own story. And DAI was the story of the Inquisition, as led by your inquisitor. They were clearly the hero there, too. I don't know what you mean by design philosophy, so I can't speak to that.
You're absolutely correct, of course. The thing is that this wasn't what was advertised pre release. The pre launch ads hinted at a story about rising from humble beginnings to a position of prominence. It looked like the game's story was about power and self determination, when in several aspects it was actually the exact opposite. The ads showed big badass Hawke with tag lines like "The Rise to Power begins March 8th". There was even a trailer with a scene that wasn't in the final game, where Hawke raised his weapon to a big cheering crowd, much like the Inquisitor does in DAI when officially receiving that title. But then again, marketing was never their forte...
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 9:26:32 GMT
Even without taking the advertising into consideration, people tend to expect similar experiences from entries in a series. So those who didn't pay much attention to the advertising went into DA:2 expecting a similar experience to DA:O and man were a lot of those people unimpressed xD
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 29, 2018 9:43:28 GMT
I disagree that the story isn’t about Hawke. The game is literally Varric telling the truth about the story of Hawke to answer Cassandra’s questions.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 10:14:58 GMT
I disagree that the story isn’t about Hawke. The game is literally Varric telling the truth about the story of Hawke to answer Cassandra’s questions. And yet the central events of the game had little to do with Hawke. Being the hero is being a main character of a story, Cassandra may have been interested about Hawke but they weren't one of the heroes in the tale Varric spun. Anders was, though.
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Post by midnight tea on May 29, 2018 17:05:20 GMT
I disagree that the story isn’t about Hawke. The game is literally Varric telling the truth about the story of Hawke to answer Cassandra’s questions. And yet the central events of the game had little to do with Hawke. Being the hero is being a main character of a story, Cassandra may have been interested about Hawke but they weren't one of the heroes in the tale Varric spun. Anders was, though. Well, I disagree on both counts. We do know that Cassandra was interested in Hawke 'cuz Justinia and her fledging Inquisition was eyeing Hawke as the leader, specifically because of his involvement with events and who they emerged as in eyes of people. The hero also doesn't necessarily have to be a be-all and end-all of the story - surely not in a franchise aiming to tell a bigger story than that of one character.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 21:45:43 GMT
Well, I disagree on both counts. We do know that Cassandra was interested in Hawke 'cuz Justinia and her fledging Inquisition was eyeing Hawke as the leader, specifically because of his involvement with events and who they emerged as in eyes of people. The hero also doesn't necessarily have to be a be-all and end-all of the story - surely not in a franchise aiming to tell a bigger story than that of one character. Cassandra being interested in Hawke because of something planned for the future has little to do with whether Hawke is a hero of the story in DA2. And I am going by the literal definition of the word "hero", not whatever meaning you want the word to bear: Merriam Webster definition of Hero: The principal character in a literary or dramatic work. The central figure in an event, period, or movement. So no, Hawke isn't a hero of DA2. And no, DA2 doesn't fit in with Casey's current mission statement.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 21:49:26 GMT
Hawke IS the principal character of Dragon Age 2. The plot advances as a result of his/her actions.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 21:52:03 GMT
Hawke IS the principle character of Dragon Age 2. No, principal means most important, consequential, or influential. Hawke is not the most important character in Dragon Age 2.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 21:52:32 GMT
The plot advances as a result of his/her actions. The plot is driven by Ander's actions.
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Post by midnight tea on May 29, 2018 22:10:22 GMT
Well, I disagree on both counts. We do know that Cassandra was interested in Hawke 'cuz Justinia and her fledging Inquisition was eyeing Hawke as the leader, specifically because of his involvement with events and who they emerged as in eyes of people. The hero also doesn't necessarily have to be a be-all and end-all of the story - surely not in a franchise aiming to tell a bigger story than that of one character. Cassandra being interested in Hawke because of something planned for the future has little to do with whether Hawke is a hero of the story in DA2. Of course it does. Because if Hawke wasn't the hero then Cassandra wouldn't be searching for him/her and interrogating Varric in the first place. And these were not things 'planned in the future' - the search for Hawke was part of an already ongoing plan. Varric's tale happened shortly before the Conclave. Even by that definition Hawke is the hero of the story. You can't just look at the worldly events unfolding, but also by the framing - the game follows him/her and his/her involvement in the bigger weave of Thedosian events. The fact that not only their actions are of crucial importance of the plot doesn't make them less of a hero of that piece of the story - and if we go by that route, we could say the very same thing about characters in DAO or Inquisition. After all - the most crucial character in DAO story is Flemeth. If she didn't save those treaties and then saved the Warden in Ostagar, nothing would've happened (in fact we have the whole DLC to demonstrate that). And Solas is even more important than that, given that he's responsible not just for the story going where it did in DAI, but the shape of the very world the events happen in. So by your bizarrely literal definition, neither the Warden or the Inquisition are principal heroes. Hawke IS the principle character of Dragon Age 2. No, principal means most important, consequential, or influential. Hawke is not the most important character in Dragon Age 2. *cough*red lyrium*cough*Corypheus*
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:29:59 GMT
Of course it does. Because if Hawke wasn't the hero then Cassandra wouldn't be searching for him/her and interrogating Varric in the first place. And these were not things 'planned in the future' - the search for Hawke was part of an already ongoing plan. Varric's tale happened shortly before the Conclave. You make an astounding leap that Cassandra wants Hawke because they are the hero. You may be mistaking "great warrior" hero to "literary hero" which are different things. There are many reasons why Cassandra wouldn't want a hero (as the word pertains to a literary [story] work) to lead her little troop of merry people. Bioware usually does plot driven stories, Dragon Age 2 was the only character driven game they've created. Hawke, however, was like their protagonists in plot driven stories - basically riding events out or coping the best they can. However, in a character driven story the plot is driven by a character's decision, and the hero of these stories would be one of those characters whose decision(s) drove the plot along. The one who caused the events of Dragon Age 2 was Anders. Would Cassandra be looking for him? No, he's unstable. She wouldn't be looking for "the hero of Varric's tale", she's looking for a possible candidate for a leadership position. This discussion is about the hero of Varric's tale, Varric's tale being Dragon Age 2 with Varric being the narrator. So what we're looking for as a hero to the story, and what Cassandra is looking for are 2 different things. Even by that literal definition, Hawke is the hero of the story. You can't just look at the worldly events unfolding, but also by the framing - the game follows him/her and his/her involvement in the bigger weave of Thedosian events. The fact that not only their actions are of crucial importance of the plot doesn't make them less of a hero of that piece of the story - and if we go by that route, we could say the very same thing about characters in DAO or Inquisition. After all - the most crucial character in DAO story is Flemeth. If she didn't save those treaties and saved the Warden in Ostagar, nothing would've happened (in fact we have the whole DLC to demonstrate that). And Solas is even more important than that, given that he's responsible not just for the story going where it did in DAI, but the shape of the very world the events happen in. So by your bizarrely literal definition, neither the Warden or the Inquisition are principal heroes. The most important person in the events depicted in Origins is the one who ended the blight, not the person who saved the one who ended the blight. Not the one who saved the treaties that helped a person end the blight. We can take that to ridiculous proportions by saying "wouldn't the hero be their parents, they gave birth to the person who ended the blight"? So no, Flemeth is not the hero of Origins. Hawke may perform important actions in Dragon Age 2, but it is undeniable that they are not one of the most influential people with regard to the events of that story. If you want to suggest otherwise then show it please. *cough*red lyrium*cough*Corypheus* Still not Hawke.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 22:33:34 GMT
The plot advances as a result of his/her actions. The plot is driven by Ander's actions. Really? That whole thing with the qunari, what involvement did Anders have in all that? Did he give the amulet to Hawke that resulted in the family going to Kirkwall? What about the business with Corypheus? Dragon Age 2 is a series of dominoes. Flemeth gives Hawke an amulet and sends them to Kirkwall, where Hawke becomes involved in the Deep Roads expedition, which leads to Bartrand betraying Varric and Hawke. That in turn results in the lyrium idol getting to Meredith and contributing to her breakdown. Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun, prompting the qunari to come to Kirkwall. Sister Petrice antagonizes the qunari, which result in them attacking Kirkwall and killing the Viscount. Hawke stops the qunari, leading to Meredith becoming the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Finally Hawke defeats Meredith. Anders makes two substantive contributions to the plot: giving Hawke the Deep Roads map (which is really just a way to introduce him to the story) and blowing up the Chantry, which prompts Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. Hell, the game doesn't even end with his death.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:38:10 GMT
Dragon Age 2 is a series of dominoes. Bartrand initiates the Deep Roads expedition, which leads to the red lyrium idol getting to Meredith and leads to her breakdown. Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun, prompting the qunari to come to Kirkwall. Sister Petrice antagonizes the qunari, which result in them attacking Kirkwall and killing the Viscount. Meredith becomes the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Anders makes two substantive contributions to the plot: giving Hawke the Deep Roads map (which is really just a way to introduce him to the story) and blowing up the Chantry, which prompts Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke ... I wonder why that is
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 22:44:14 GMT
Dragon Age 2 is a series of dominoes. Bartrand initiates the Deep Roads expedition, which leads to the red lyrium idol getting to Meredith and leads to her breakdown. Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun, prompting the qunari to come to Kirkwall. Sister Petrice antagonizes the qunari, which result in them attacking Kirkwall and killing the Viscount. Meredith becomes the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Anders makes two substantive contributions to the plot: giving Hawke the Deep Roads map (which is really just a way to introduce him to the story) and blowing up the Chantry, which prompts Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke ... I wonder why that is Because stories don't require the main character to drive every element of the main plot? I mean, if the droids never reach Luke Skywalker in A New Hope, then Luke never leaves the farm, the Rebels never destroy the Death Star and the Empire continues to rule with an iron fist, backed up by their unstoppable planet-destroying battle station.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:44:55 GMT
Hawke stops the qunari, leading to Meredith becoming the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Finally Hawke defeats Meredith. Ah, the crux of the issue ... in an edit. Nice. You've hit the nail on the head. Hawke reacted to the series of larger events in DA2, events that were driven by others. That is why they aren't the hero of DA2. The plot is advanced by every character other than Hawke, Hawke then reacts. Also the largest event of them all which wasn't resolved in DA2 and which is what the whole game was about, was driven by Anders.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 22:46:43 GMT
Hawke stops the qunari, leading to Meredith becoming the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Finally Hawke defeats Meredith. Ah, the crux of the issue ... in an edit. Nice. You've hit the nail on the head. Hawke reacted to the series of larger events in DA2, events that were driven by others. That is why they aren't the hero of DA2. The plot is advanced by every character other than Hawke, Hawke then reacts. Except if Hawke dies in Lothering, then the Deep Roads Expedition fails, the qunari conquer Kirkwall and Anders dies in an ambush by the templars. (Or is eventually killed by the qunari, take your pick.)
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:46:44 GMT
Because stories don't require the main character to do everything? I mean, if the droids never reach Luke Skywalker in A New Hope, then Luke never leaves the farm, the Rebels never destroy the Death Star and the Empire continues to rule with an iron fist, backed up by their unstoppable planet-destroying battle station. Leave Hawke to die in Lothering, however, and the Deep Roads expedition fails, the qunari conquer Kirkwall and the destruction of the Chantry never happens. I never asked that the main character do everything, I asked for the hero to drive the events and be the most important figure. Hawke neither drove events, nor is the most important figure in the game. Therefore they're not the hero.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:48:43 GMT
Except if Hawke dies in Lothering, then the Deep Roads Expedition fails, the qunari conquer Kirkwall and Anders never destroys the Chantry. And if the Warden didn't have his armies he'd fail in Origins, yet he's undoubtedly the most important person there. Hawke was a cog in the machine, a cog that helped events unfold, but they never drove the events and they were never the most important part of those events.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 22:48:57 GMT
Because stories don't require the main character to do everything? I mean, if the droids never reach Luke Skywalker in A New Hope, then Luke never leaves the farm, the Rebels never destroy the Death Star and the Empire continues to rule with an iron fist, backed up by their unstoppable planet-destroying battle station. Leave Hawke to die in Lothering, however, and the Deep Roads expedition fails, the qunari conquer Kirkwall and the destruction of the Chantry never happens. I never asked that the main character do everything, I asked for the hero to drive the events and be the most important figure. That contradicts what you said earlier.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:49:29 GMT
I never asked that the main character do everything, I asked for the hero to drive the events and be the most important figure. That contradicts what you said earlier. No it doesn't. You can show me where it contradicts if you're so adamant
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Post by thats1evildude on May 29, 2018 22:51:17 GMT
I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke .. I never asked that the main character do everything
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