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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 22:53:34 GMT
I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke .. I never asked that the main character do everything, And how does this contradict? The initial post was saying you named a lot of people driving events and none of them were named Hawke. It was me asking "what events did Hawke drive"? You tried to fix that in your edit, but it just showed Hawke reacting to a bunch of stuff.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on May 29, 2018 23:26:28 GMT
Of course it does. Because if Hawke wasn't the hero then Cassandra wouldn't be searching for him/her and interrogating Varric in the first place. And these were not things 'planned in the future' - the search for Hawke was part of an already ongoing plan. Varric's tale happened shortly before the Conclave. You make an astounding leap that Cassandra wants Hawke because they are the hero. You may be mistaking "great warrior" hero to "literary hero" which are different things. There are many reasons why Cassandra wouldn't want a hero (as the word pertains to a literary [story] work) to lead her little troop of merry people. Huh, that's just a classing goalpost switch fallacy. And no, Cassandra wasn't just looking for "great warrior", she's pretty clear about why Justinia was seeking Hawke to take the mantle of Inquisitor (and if Warden is alive, they also search for Warden). Okay... but that's just another goalpost switch. We're moving farther and farther away from the simple and literal dictionary definition you just gave and despite you accusing me of giving the word a meaning I supposedly want it to bear, you're now doing exactly that: dividing the story into plot-driven and character-driven to try and argue that Hawke ain't acting the part he should be in character-driven story... I mean, nevermind that "character-driven story" doesn't mean that the story is pushed just by the main character (and by taking that into account, the majority of DA is actually character-driven, because it's actions of characters that have led to major events in the story - including the Blights starting with Magister Sidereus fateful trip to the Golden City). So, by that logic, the most important person is the one who has managed to withstand the chaos and bring the measure of peace/order to the otherwise chaotic situation/place. But lol... that's exactly what Hawke does, or why Cass is looking for him/her.
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Post by river82 on May 29, 2018 23:42:39 GMT
Huh, that's just a classing goalpost switch fallacy. And no, Cassandra wasn't just looking for "great warrior", she's pretty clear about why Justinia was seeking Hawke to take the mantle of Inquisitor (and if Warden is alive, they also search for Warden). It isn't. There's nothing to suggest Cassandra was interested in the hero of Varric's tale as the word pertains in the literary sense. No goalposts were switched, no fallacy used. The only reason you'd be thinking that is if you're misunderstanding the term "hero". I mean, nevermind that "character-driven story" doesn't mean that the story is pushed just by the main character (and by taking that into account, the majority of DA is actually character-driven, because it's actions of characters that have led to major events in the story - including the Blights starting with Magister Sidereus fateful trip to the Golden City). Character driven stories are stories focusing on the inner conflicts of people, and the resolution of those conflicts drive the plot. Hero means principal character in a story. In a character driven story, the most influential and important people to the events are those principally driving the events. You keep saying Hawke pushed events in Dragon Age 2 but you don't show how they do. Because Hawke doesn't. Hawke hangs around or follows the important people in Dragon Age 2. That the blight started with Magister Sidereus is an event that occurred outside the events of Origins. In a plot driven story the plot drives the action forward in the story, Magister Sidereus was outside the scope of Origins so it was plot driven. Okay... but that's just another goalpost switch. We're moving farther and farther away from the simple and literal dictionary definition you just gave and despite you accusing me of giving the word a meaning I supposedly want it to bear, you're now doing exactly that: dividing the story into plot-driven and character-driven to try and argue that Hawke ain't acting the part he should be in character-driven story... No goalposts have been switched. The heros take on different characteristics in a character driven novel than in a plot driven novel due to the nature of what is driving the plot. When someone drives the plot the most important figures are naturally those doing the driving, when the action is driving the plot the most important figure doesn't necessarily have to do any driving. Actually think about this before replying please. So, by that logic, the most important person is the one who has managed to withstand the chaos and bring the measure of peace/order to the otherwise chaotic situation/place. But lol... that's exactly what Hawke does, or why Cass is looking for him/her. In a plot driven story that can be the case, because the plot drives the action and the hero may repel it and be the most important character etc etc. In a character driven story the most important people are the ones who drives the plot, you don't really have that in plot driven stuff. That's why Hawke is a classic plot driven Bioware protagonist in a character driven story. And it doesn't really work.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 29, 2018 23:50:00 GMT
Some people like DA2 and Hawke. Some don't. The end. Please stop talking about it here >.<.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 29, 2018 23:52:39 GMT
Given that DG didn't know about these editions (it's not the first time he's said that), I'm wondering just what these illustrations are going to show. I mean, they can't be what he thinks the characters should look like, or be doing, or whathaveyou, since there was no apparent back-and-forth with the artist.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on May 29, 2018 23:59:32 GMT
Dragon Age 2 is a series of dominoes. Bartrand initiates the Deep Roads expedition, which leads to the red lyrium idol getting to Meredith and leads to her breakdown. Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun, prompting the qunari to come to Kirkwall. Sister Petrice antagonizes the qunari, which result in them attacking Kirkwall and killing the Viscount. Meredith becomes the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Anders makes two substantive contributions to the plot: giving Hawke the Deep Roads map (which is really just a way to introduce him to the story) and blowing up the Chantry, which prompts Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke ... I wonder why that is Villains and side characters also drive events in stories, man. Its called a plot. The protagonist is the fulcrum on which the events of the plot ultimately tilt. Hawke was at the center of it all. They didn't have control over a lot of the events happening, but that's not required for a protagonist to be a protagonist. The protagonist is the person whose story we follow. That was Hawke.
EDIT: Stopping now. Didn't see the request to stop till I hit the next page.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ByonicClown
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Post by Tittus on May 30, 2018 0:01:25 GMT
Dragon Age 2 is a series of dominoes. Bartrand initiates the Deep Roads expedition, which leads to the red lyrium idol getting to Meredith and leads to her breakdown. Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun, prompting the qunari to come to Kirkwall. Sister Petrice antagonizes the qunari, which result in them attacking Kirkwall and killing the Viscount. Meredith becomes the new ruler and initiates the Rite of Annulment as a result of her growing madness. Anders makes two substantive contributions to the plot: giving Hawke the Deep Roads map (which is really just a way to introduce him to the story) and blowing up the Chantry, which prompts Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke ... I wonder why that is The protagonist of a story isn’t necessarily the one that have more bonds in the story, but they’re in the focus of the story. A villain appears of nowhere, they trigger events and the hero goes to save the day. Or most of Sherlock’s stories, where he’s just hired as a detective and don’t have any stacks in his cases.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 0:02:39 GMT
Given that DG didn't know about these editions (it's not the first time he's said that), I'm wondering just what these illustrations are going to show. I mean, they can't be what he thinks the characters should look like, or be doing, or whathaveyou, since there was no apparent back-and-forth with the artist. An old writers complaint. E.g.: I’m very fortunate that I’ve been involved with the cover design on my books, but most authors are shown the cover once it’s done. I’ve also come up with all the titles of my books, except Better Off Friends (Scholastic editorial came up with it before I even started writing the book). The cover and title of a book are considered marketing tools since those two things will help sell the book to bookstore accounts. So sometimes the publisher will veto an author’s original title or have to pick a cover that an author might not like. I used to work in publishing, so this didn’t surprise me. I’m an author – I’m not a cover designer.
www.elizabetheulberg.com/what-authors-have-no-control-over/
Heh, some authors complain bitterly at the illustrations for their novel.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 0:03:31 GMT
I'm hearing a lot of people driving events in DA2 who AREN'T named Hawke ... I wonder why that is The protagonist of a story isn’t necessarily the one that have more bonds in the story, but they’re in the focus of the story. A villain appears of nowhere, they trigger events and the hero goes to save the day. Or most of Sherlock’s stories, where he’s just hired as a detective and don’t have any stacks in his cases. Read my reply above pertaining the difference between plot and character driven stories
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 30, 2018 0:05:01 GMT
So much for stopping this discussion in the Twitter thread.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 0:06:14 GMT
So much for stopping this discussion in the Twitter thread. Well, you liked a post that continued the discussion so I don't think you feel that bad about it progressing
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on May 30, 2018 0:07:30 GMT
So much for stopping this discussion in the Twitter thread. Well, you liked a post that continued the discussion so I don't think you feel that bad about it progressing This might get censored, but screw off.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 0:08:10 GMT
Well, you liked a post that continued the discussion so I don't think you feel that bad about it progressing This might get censored, but screw off. Very rational
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on May 30, 2018 0:08:44 GMT
This might get censored, but screw off. Very rational Yep.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2018 1:22:40 GMT
At the risk of being...well risky.
Character driven stories for me aren't just about how the character effects the world. After all in any story character and plot often effects each other all the time. Rather character driven stories are ones where the character goes through an arc, often growing and becoming a better person and sometimes getting rewarded through material 'wealth'. While it is true that these characters also effect the plot I find it is not worth a requirement.
For Hawk has gone through probably the most powerful change arc of any BioWare or RPG character ever. Hawk basically went from nothing, to having everything, to maybe having nothing again by the time DA 2 ended. The Warden, in comparison, did not change nearly as much. Sure the Warden effected events around them but they did not have any chance to learn or grow from these events. My Hawke, in particular, was one who started off being very mercenary. She was willing to take any job, do almost anything for money in order to try and advance the lot of their family. In so doing they got wealth (by Act 2) and when the Qunari was busy invading and while the Templars and mages were fighting over who was in charge she took a leadership role. She took charge even though she had very little interest to. As such she was declared the Champion of Kirkwall and was suddenly one of the most influential people in the city. She had the trust of both the Templars and Mages and she constantly urged calm. It was only because of the terrorist Anders that she lost this influence.
But, as I have noted before, just because a character makes a decision which does not go the way they want it to does not make them a weak protagonist.
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Post by phoray on May 30, 2018 1:38:12 GMT
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2018 1:41:53 GMT
Fine by me. I just wouldn't be sure of a title for the thread which is why I hadn't thought of it.
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Post by smilesja on May 30, 2018 1:46:34 GMT
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2018 2:13:37 GMT
Hawke IS the principle character of Dragon Age 2. No, principal means most important, consequential, or influential. By this definition, Frodo is not the principle character of LotR. EDIT (after catching up with the get thee hence replies): Sorry, boss. That's what I get for posting a reply two pages before the end of the thread.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 30, 2018 4:18:19 GMT
No, principal means most important, consequential, or influential. By this definition, Frodo is not the principle character of LotR. EDIT (after catching up with the get thee hence replies): Sorry, boss. That's what I get for posting a reply two pages before the end of the thread. I was literally going to use Frodo as an example but saw the discussion was asked to stop so I didn't.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 5:19:28 GMT
You could but I don't really see much point. For one the conversation has pretty much died down, for another the plot driven vs character driven can just be looked up by someone with google if they're really interested. Interesting ideas were exchanged and people can think about stuff and make their own minds up about it. So successful (robust, passionate, entertaining) discussion in my book. Creating a new topic might suffer from things going round and round in circles and not really achieving too much else *shrugs*.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by FireAndBlood on May 30, 2018 8:43:31 GMT
The plot advances as a result of his/her actions. The plot is driven by Ander's actions. By your logic Corypheus is the principal character of DAI.
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Post by river82 on May 30, 2018 8:51:33 GMT
The plot is driven by Ander's actions. By your logic Corypheus is the principal character of DAI. <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.680000000000007" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 4.680000000000007px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_39063022" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.680000000000007" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_81186791" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.680000000000007" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 173px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_46419970" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.680000000000007" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.68px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 173px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_7839198" scrolling="no"></iframe> Inquisition is plot driven
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Post by SofaJockey on May 30, 2018 9:34:35 GMT
That's no problem, can someone DM me with the link or page location of the first post and I'll neatly lift the discussion section into a new thread.
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Post by SofaJockey on May 30, 2018 10:25:59 GMT
The right posts should be in the right, place. Please continue.
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