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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 21:37:49 GMT
No squad mate or crew romances at all in ME1 or ME3... it's allegedly not allowed by the Alliance so it's completely unprofessional for Shepard to engage in them. This would include not being able to continue romances onboard ship with either Tali or Garrus in ME3.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 25, 2018 22:55:37 GMT
No squad mate or crew romances at all in ME1 or ME3... it's allegedly not allowed by the Alliance so it's completely unprofessional for Shepard to engage in them. This would include not being able to continue romances onboard ship with either Tali or Garrus in ME3. Well, technically Shepard isn't Alliance anymore the moment he becomes a Spectre so those rules wouldn't apply to them anymore.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 25, 2018 23:03:52 GMT
Unprofessionality aside, Tali and Garrus are never members of the Alliance. Why would Alliance regs apply to them?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 23:41:58 GMT
Unprofessionality aside, Tali and Garrus are never members of the Alliance. Why would Alliance regs apply to them? In all respects other than official being in the Alliance they are treated by the game as being under Shepard's command. The reason the regs exist is to prevent abuse of a position of authority and they apply to Shepard in ME1 AND ME3. He/she is not to date someone under his/her command. Eliminating them and inserting new romance options on the Citadel would solve issues:
1) Male Shepard misspeaks when Ashley brings up Liara in that he replies: "You think I'm interested in her because she's the only one I'm allowed to date." (when Tali and Liara have the same status aboard the ship).
2) It would solve/eliminate the Major vs. LT vs. Spectre promotions of Kaidan and Ashley.
3) It would encourage more off-ship character development and lessen the feeling of Shepard just making all the rounds between missions. It would make the game feel somewhat more "fresh."
As a last comment - what is being proposed here is not a mere remaster, but a remake or reboot. A remaster would not change anything except update the graphics and sound.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 0:20:56 GMT
No squad mate or crew romances at all in ME1 or ME3... it's allegedly not allowed by the Alliance so it's completely unprofessional for Shepard to engage in them. This would include not being able to continue romances onboard ship with either Tali or Garrus in ME3. Well, technically Shepard isn't Alliance anymore the moment he becomes a Spectre so those rules wouldn't apply to them anymore. Shepard is clearly Alliance in ME3 the moment Anderson reinstates his/her rank as Commander and throws him/her the dogtags. That means the regs apply again to Shepard in ME3 and, therefore, in order to continue romancing Tali or Garrus, he/she should not put them again under his/her command by taking them aboard the ship. They could be continued if they were treated in the same fashion as the Jack or Miranda romances.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 26, 2018 0:38:08 GMT
Well, technically Shepard isn't Alliance anymore the moment he becomes a Spectre so those rules wouldn't apply to them anymore. Shepard is clearly Alliance in ME3 the moment Anderson reinstates his/her rank as Commander and throws him/her the dogtags. That means the regs apply again to Shepard in ME3 and, therefore, in order to continue romancing Tali or Garrus, he/she should not put them again under his/her command by taking them aboard the ship. They could be continued if they were treated in the same fashion as the Jack or Miranda romances. By the time you can romance someone in ME3 you are also reinstated as a Spectre by the Council though, so still doesn’t apply to them.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 26, 2018 3:17:09 GMT
Indeed. That's why I never talk or bring her on missions. Hell, I always get her last in ME1. And yet she always becomes obsessed with Shepard and is always the one to go after your corpse. And despite how you treat her, you're magically best friends with her. Makes you wish you could do the Thanos snap on her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 16:34:33 GMT
Shepard is clearly Alliance in ME3 the moment Anderson reinstates his/her rank as Commander and throws him/her the dogtags. That means the regs apply again to Shepard in ME3 and, therefore, in order to continue romancing Tali or Garrus, he/she should not put them again under his/her command by taking them aboard the ship. They could be continued if they were treated in the same fashion as the Jack or Miranda romances. By the time you can romance someone in ME3 you are also reinstated as a Spectre by the Council though, so still doesn’t apply to them. Where does the game say that while a spectre AND a commander in the Alliance, Alliance protocols regarding romance doesn't apply. Romance protocols have nothing to do with "spectres being above the law" since it's not against the law to romance someone under your command... it's against Alliance regulations. For romancing someone under his/her command, Shepard should lose his/her command of Normandy. As further backup to my point, Shepard is a spectre throughout ME1 as he/she are going on about romancing Kaidan/Ashley being against regulations. It's after Shepard steals the Normandy (effectively going AWOL from the Alliance, albeit with Anderson's blessing) that the regs are said to no longer apply. There was no change in Shepard's spectre status at that point.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 26, 2018 17:08:34 GMT
By the time you can romance someone in ME3 you are also reinstated as a Spectre by the Council though, so still doesn’t apply to them. Where does the game say that while a spectre AND a commander in the Alliance, Alliance protocols regarding romance doesn't apply. Romance protocols have nothing to do with "spectres being above the law" since it's not against the law to romance someone under your command... it's against Alliance regulations. For romancing someone under his/her command, Shepard should lose his/her command of Normandy. As further backup to my point, Shepard is a spectre throughout ME1 as he/she are going on about romancing Kaidan/Ashley being against regulations. It's after Shepard steals the Normandy (effectively going AWOL from the Alliance, albeit with Anderson's blessing) that the regs are said to no longer apply. There was no change in Shepard's spectre status at that point. It says that several times actually, since it talks about how we are no longer Alliance. For example in ME1 during one of the times Hackett is asking for your help he says "I know you're working for the Council now" meaning we don't work for the Alliance anymore officially. Spectres don't answer to any law or rules other than the Council. That's the whole thing about Spectres. So any Alliance rule or law does not apply to you anymore. Quite frankly, I don't care if they would do this or not since I don't romance any of the characters affected by this anyway. I was just saying that according to the lore of the series those regulations do not apply to Shepard. I'm done with this conversation now.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 26, 2018 18:19:09 GMT
Unprofessionality aside, Tali and Garrus are never members of the Alliance. Why would Alliance regs apply to them? In all respects other than official being in the Alliance they are treated by the game as being under Shepard's command. The reason the regs exist is to prevent abuse of a position of authority and they apply to Shepard in ME1 AND ME3. I'm not sure the way you're using "under command " there is legit. Is a passenger on the Disney Magic under the command of the ship's captain? Only in a very limited sense. Shepard has no institutional authority over Tali, Garrus, Wrex, or Liara. They could leave at any time. This one would go away in any case. Surely a remake would have Tali available as a potential LI from the start, rather than phasing her in in the middle of the story, if she were to be romanceable at all. I don't see the problems here in the first place. What is being solved, exactly?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 21:10:01 GMT
In all respects other than official being in the Alliance they are treated by the game as being under Shepard's command. The reason the regs exist is to prevent abuse of a position of authority and they apply to Shepard in ME1 AND ME3. I'm not sure the way you're using "under command " there is legit. Is a passenger on the Disney Magic under the command of the ship's captain? Only in a very limited sense. Shepard has no institutional authority over Tali, Garrus, Wrex, or Liara. They could leave at any time. This one would go away in any case. Surely a remake would have Tali available as a potential LI from the start, rather than phasing her in in the middle of the story, if she were to be romanceable at all. I don't see the problems here in the first place. What is being solved, exactly? A passenger on a Disney vessel doesn't go into battle accepting orders from the captain of that vessel. The squad mates are clearly under Shepard's command. They take orders from him/her. Yes, they could leave the ship and then would not be under Shepard's command, but as long as they are on the ship they take order from Shepard. Even in ME2, when the ship is a civilian vessel, Rael Zorah transfers Tali into Shepard's command and the Quarians acknowledge Shepard as Tali's captain.
The issue is that Bioware are inconsistent in how they treat this issue... touting regs as an issue on one hand and then conveniently ignoring them to make different squad available as a love interest. My solution is that all romances should involve NPCs who are not aboard the ship and not then clearly not under the command of Shepard (my opinion... how I would handle it -which is what this thread asks... that's all.
As for Ashley/Kaidan's promotion - Why were they promoted to be equivalent in rank to Shepard if not to get around the "romance regs" notion they introduced in ME1? It serves no purpose in the game. When, as LC, Shepard was made a spectre, everyone was adamant he/she get her own ship... so, why doesn't Ashley need her own ship when she's made a spectre? See - inconsistencies.
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Post by Guts on Jul 26, 2018 23:09:23 GMT
And yet she always becomes obsessed with Shepard and is always the one to go after your corpse. And despite how you treat her, you're magically best friends with her. Makes you wish you could do the Thanos snap on her. I'm actually thinking more something along the lines of this: (I feel pretty despicable about this, but this is Liara so.....)
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 26, 2018 23:16:23 GMT
Makes you wish you could do the Thanos snap on her. I'm actually thinking more something along the lines of this: (I feel pretty despicable about this, but this is Liara so.....) Ah, General Shepard, one of the most badass characters in a video game. Man, I miss this game, back when COD games were good.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 26, 2018 23:26:54 GMT
No squad mate or crew romances at all in ME1 or ME3... it's allegedly not allowed by the Alliance so it's completely unprofessional for Shepard to engage in them. This would include not being able to continue romances onboard ship with either Tali or Garrus in ME3.t This is incorrect. It's all about chain of command. In ME1, it would be against regs to romance Kaidan or Ash but not a problem with Liara. Same with Garrus and Tali continuation in ME3. That said, in ME3, who is going to give a shit about who Shepard is screwing when the galaxy is going down in flames? No court martial is happening there. Setting all that aside, why should a Spectre really be concerned with Alliance regs anyway?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 26, 2018 23:29:14 GMT
In all respects other than official being in the Alliance they are treated by the game as being under Shepard's command. The reason the regs exist is to prevent abuse of a position of authority and they apply to Shepard in ME1 AND ME3. He/she is not to date someone under his/her command. They're there voluntarily. That means they can leave whenever they want. Not so with Alliance marines under Shepard's command. That is where "position of authority" comes into play because they're stuck dealing with a superior officer. Tali can tell Shepard to fuck off and leave if she feels like Shepard is pressuring her into sex.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 23:50:16 GMT
In all respects other than official being in the Alliance they are treated by the game as being under Shepard's command. The reason the regs exist is to prevent abuse of a position of authority and they apply to Shepard in ME1 AND ME3. He/she is not to date someone under his/her command. They're there voluntarily. That means they can leave whenever they want. Not so with Alliance marines under Shepard's command. That is where "position of authority" comes into play because they're stuck dealing with a superior officer. Tali can tell Shepard to fuck off and leave if she feels like Shepard is pressuring her into sex. Not really so. An employee can also tell an employer to eff off and quit if they feel pressured, but I know of a couple of companies that do have regulations about dating co-workers that would cost the superior their job if they started dating a person under their supervision. Also, it's not like they can just "jump off the ship into space" at any time. They need the ship to be in a port where they can disembark.
I get that people here don't like my idea. I'd like to ask them what they have against having relationships be developed off the ship and in the various ports. To me, that would make those areas far more interesting. As it is, after the first little jaunt to the Citadel in ME1, it's little more than a shopping center for the remainder of the game with only a few little dialogues to wrap up that can't be done on the first visit (2 with Conrad, one with Mahailovich, and one with Al-Jilani - everything else can be done in the first visit). I liked the idea of the Kerri romance in ME:A and wished only that it had been more developed than it was. It deserved it's own romance scene. In the OT, I would have liked an opportunity to explore a deeper relationship with Aria or Al-Jilani or even Conrad Verner. How about getting to know a volus or an Elcor on a more personal level? I see nothing wrong with switching the focus of where the romances take place. The on ship romance idea developed through talking between missions has been done in four games now.
At any rate, I'm done playing defense. It's my opinion and only that. Like it or hate it, I care not.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 27, 2018 0:46:45 GMT
I get that people here don't like my idea. I'd like to ask them what they have against having relationships be developed off the ship and in the various ports. One of my major beefs with MEA was that I couldn't have a same-sex romance with a human squadmate. There are just little things, comments, that make it worthwhile. I never bothered to romance Steve Cortez precisely because I can't take him on missions. (Well, other reasons, but that one was significant.) Keri was fine as a romance. As a side "romance" for cheating? Gross.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 1:44:31 GMT
I get that people here don't like my idea. I'd like to ask them what they have against having relationships be developed off the ship and in the various ports. One of my major beefs with MEA was that I couldn't have a same-sex romance with a human squadmate. There are just little things, comments, that make it worthwhile. I never bothered to romance Steve Cortez precisely because I can't take him on missions. (Well, other reasons, but that one was significant.) Keri was fine as a romance. As a side "romance" for cheating? Gross. In the OT, the only place I found having your LI on a mission with you mattered was at the end of ME3 in two places on Chronos and, of course, the goodbye scene. I found it far more interesting when you encountered Jack or Miranda during a mission, but they weren't on the mission with you. That Miranda could literally die in Shepard's arms made it a much better romance story for me than all the sex scenes on the ship just before the final mission... and the meetup in the apartment with Miranda also felt like more a part of the story. In ME:A, I will admit that Peebee's nomad banter about being in a romance with Ryder was fun, but otherwise there is nothing in their behavior on missions that really changes whether you're in a romance or not.
As for Kerri, I agree that the cheating aspect of it was very poorly done. I didn't like that it occurred even if Ryder had subsequently committed to a shipmate romance. Still, it was nice getting to know someone on the hub in a little more personal way than just shopping or doing a side quest or two for them.
As I said, part of the reason I'm suggesting it is that the ship-board romance formula has been with ME from the start. As I also said, if we're talking remaster, I would not change a thing about the games themselves... just update the graphics and sound. If we're talking remake or reboot, then I think it should be very, very different from the original.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 27, 2018 2:25:30 GMT
They're there voluntarily. That means they can leave whenever they want. Not so with Alliance marines under Shepard's command. That is where "position of authority" comes into play because they're stuck dealing with a superior officer. Tali can tell Shepard to fuck off and leave if she feels like Shepard is pressuring her into sex. Not really so. An employee can also tell an employer to eff off and quit if they feel pressured, but I know of a couple of companies that do have regulations about dating co-workers that would cost the superior their job if they started dating a person under their supervision. Also, it's not like they can just "jump off the ship into space" at any time. They need the ship to be in a port where they can disembark.
I get that people here don't like my idea. I'd like to ask them what they have against having relationships be developed off the ship and in the various ports. To me, that would make those areas far more interesting. As it is, after the first little jaunt to the Citadel in ME1, it's little more than a shopping center for the remainder of the game with only a few little dialogues to wrap up that can't be done on the first visit (2 with Conrad, one with Mahailovich, and one with Al-Jilani - everything else can be done in the first visit). I liked the idea of the Kerri romance in ME:A and wished only that it had been more developed than it was. It deserved it's own romance scene. In the OT, I would have liked an opportunity to explore a deeper relationship with Aria or Al-Jilani or even Conrad Verner. How about getting to know a volus or an Elcor on a more personal level? I see nothing wrong with switching the focus of where the romances take place. The on ship romance idea developed through talking between missions has been done in four games now.
At any rate, I'm done playing defense. It's my opinion and only that. Like it or hate it, I care not.
I don't hate your idea necessarily. I just disagreed that it broke regulations since regulations no longer applied to Shepard in ME1 or ME3. As for your notion about having offship romances, I would love that. 3 of my top 5 Bioware romances are non-squadmembers(Josephine, Suvi, Kelly) and I really adored Avela's little romance and even liked Keri's in MEA.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 2:45:57 GMT
Not really so. An employee can also tell an employer to eff off and quit if they feel pressured, but I know of a couple of companies that do have regulations about dating co-workers that would cost the superior their job if they started dating a person under their supervision. Also, it's not like they can just "jump off the ship into space" at any time. They need the ship to be in a port where they can disembark.
I get that people here don't like my idea. I'd like to ask them what they have against having relationships be developed off the ship and in the various ports. To me, that would make those areas far more interesting. As it is, after the first little jaunt to the Citadel in ME1, it's little more than a shopping center for the remainder of the game with only a few little dialogues to wrap up that can't be done on the first visit (2 with Conrad, one with Mahailovich, and one with Al-Jilani - everything else can be done in the first visit). I liked the idea of the Kerri romance in ME:A and wished only that it had been more developed than it was. It deserved it's own romance scene. In the OT, I would have liked an opportunity to explore a deeper relationship with Aria or Al-Jilani or even Conrad Verner. How about getting to know a volus or an Elcor on a more personal level? I see nothing wrong with switching the focus of where the romances take place. The on ship romance idea developed through talking between missions has been done in four games now.
At any rate, I'm done playing defense. It's my opinion and only that. Like it or hate it, I care not.
I don't hate your idea necessarily. I just disagreed that it broke regulations since regulations no longer applied to Shepard in ME1 or ME3. As for your notion about having offship romances, I would love that. 3 of my top 5 Bioware romances are non-squadmembers(Josephine, Suvi, Kelly) and I really adored Avela's little romance and even liked Keri's in MEA. If the regs no longer apply to Shepard the moment he becomes a spectre... why does Ashley even suggest that if Shepard ordered her to kiss a superior officer she would be forced to "decline and relieve him of command." Bioware IS inconsistent in their treatment of this... and THAT IS the problem I have with it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 27, 2018 5:03:51 GMT
I don't hate your idea necessarily. I just disagreed that it broke regulations since regulations no longer applied to Shepard in ME1 or ME3. As for your notion about having offship romances, I would love that. 3 of my top 5 Bioware romances are non-squadmembers(Josephine, Suvi, Kelly) and I really adored Avela's little romance and even liked Keri's in MEA. If the regs no longer apply to Shepard the moment he becomes a spectre... why does Ashley even suggest that if Shepard ordered her to kiss a superior officer she would be forced to "decline and relieve him of command." Bioware IS inconsistent in their treatment of this... and THAT IS the problem I have with it. Ignore the part where I agree with your idea and try to move on, why don't you?
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