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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 15:20:59 GMT
The way ems was handled in the game was crap. The game proves that it doesn't matter what the player chooses to do in their playthrough. It only matters what ems the player has. The game doesn't care what the player did. Even the catalyst doesn't care. It looks at the ems board to know what choices to offer Shepard. As far as gaining salarian support? What about it? If you like, I can cure the genophage and still get low ems. I know, I've done it. excellent. I think the EMS system was fine. The decisions you make are about the journey, not the ending. The ending is dependent more on how much of the game you complete rather than on what decisions you make. If you leave out the side missions and the scanning, you can still get a low ems ending being either paragon or renegade. You can also get the breath ending being either. I still don't see where you're really saying anything different. The only place where it fails is if you want to do 100% completion and get a low ems endings. Chances are you won't but would likely wind up with an EMS very near to the breath ending. Of course, it's easy enough to avoid getting the breath if you want Shep to die and you have high ems... Just don't choose destroy (but most people "don't have the stomach" to do that either... and if they do, they come here and get pressured to no end to choose destroy and only destroy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 20:43:47 GMT
I did with my renegade Shep. I hated it at first but I'm glad I stuck with it. It was heartbreaking. He lost his ex Miranda on horizon, then found another ex Jack at the Cerberus base and had to kill her. When he got to Earth the whole tone of the game was different to normal and I appreciated that, the forces seemed more overwhelmed and less likely to win.
I forgot about the beam, so took his LI Ash and bestie Javik only to have them killed in front of him. He let Anderson die and sat there dejected in silence for an eternity. When he went up to the kid he lost it, shooting at him. Refusal it was, everyone died, and it....fitted somehow. It was powerful.
He'd spent the game being selfish, not aiding the students or Krogan, disliking aliens, and the result was the end of the world.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 11, 2018 4:49:17 GMT
In theory, I'd want to do a low EMS run, but I'd have to choose some non-Kaidan LI who I'd be willing to let die on the beam run.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 11, 2018 10:40:23 GMT
You don't have to romance anyone when completing a low ems run. Or take your LI on the beam run. That's one thing I can say I've never done. Taken my LI on the beam run during a low ems playthrough. The majority of my low ems runs I had James and Ashley with me on the beam run.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 10:41:08 GMT
In theory, I'd want to do a low EMS run, but I'd have to choose some non-Kaidan LI who I'd be willing to let die on the beam run. Couldn't you leave Kaidan on the Normandy?
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 12, 2018 7:59:53 GMT
In theory, I'd want to do a low EMS run, but I'd have to choose some non-Kaidan LI who I'd be willing to let die on the beam run. Couldn't you leave Kaidan on the Normandy? I could. But does the Normandy survive a low EMS PT? I thought the Normandy crashed on the garden planet and no one came out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 8:15:49 GMT
Couldn't you leave Kaidan on the Normandy? I could. But does the Normandy survive a low EMS PT? I thought the Normandy crashed on the garden planet and no one came out. I chose refusal so there was no scene with the Normandy. You could imagine some of them then could survive the Reapers, they're not going to find every single human.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 12, 2018 10:42:36 GMT
I could. But does the Normandy survive a low EMS PT? I thought the Normandy crashed on the garden planet and no one came out. I chose refusal so there was no scene with the Normandy. You could imagine some of them then could survive the Reapers, they're not going to find every single human. Maybe. A significant number of Protheans survived the initial Reaper invasion. It was Vigil that took them offline. Still, I'd have to assume anyone at the forefront of the war ended up dead. I don't think I could choose Refusal for in-game reasons. I have no reason to believe that Liara's beacons would have any impact, or would even survive. Why risk a continued cycle on a slim chance? No, I choose MEHEM. It's the only option for me. (Though I did try a Control ending recently and found it horribly depressing.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 19:24:03 GMT
Couldn't you leave Kaidan on the Normandy? I could. But does the Normandy survive a low EMS PT? I thought the Normandy crashed on the garden planet and no one came out. Yes, the Normandy crashes and no one appears. The ship is also visibly more damaged than in a high EMS ending. However, I do believe the door still moves a little (or maybe I'm thinking of the no EC ending on that - sorry, short memory). I don't think any of the endings were geared towards removing all hope of a future of some undefined type happening.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 14, 2018 20:33:09 GMT
Yes the door does move a bit with low ems and destroy chosen. My guess is Joker dies as he hits the open door button.
If ems is below 2600, the ship suffers a lot of damage stranding the occupants on the unknown planet for however long.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 20:41:29 GMT
Yes the door does move a bit with low ems and destroy chosen. My guess is Joker dies as he hits the open door button. If ems is below 2600, the ship suffers a lot of damage stranding the occupants on the unknown planet for however long. You couldn't go with 'my guess is that Joker survived and opened the door to release the crew'. Nope, you went straight for death. Never change Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 2:39:50 GMT
Yes the door does move a bit with low ems and destroy chosen. My guess is Joker dies as he hits the open door button. If ems is below 2600, the ship suffers a lot of damage stranding the occupants on the unknown planet for however long. ... and yet that same ship is as notably damaged when it crashed on the Collector base (not to even mention the gaping holes in the cargo bay drilled by the occulus before it crashed) and it still was able to be repaired enough to fly back through the Omega 4 relay during the time it took for Shepard to complete just one mission.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 15, 2018 2:59:11 GMT
When it crashed on the collector base, it still had the thrusters attached to the fuselage whereas in ME3, the thrusters are seen being torn from the fuselage, if ems is below 2600
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 3:10:03 GMT
When it crashed on the collector base, it still had the thrusters attached to the fuselage whereas in ME3, the thrusters are seen being torn from the fuselage, if ems is below 2600 So, imagine this... Normandy is not alone in the skies fleeing the wave. It's part of a massive fleet of ships who are also fleeing the scene. There is a chance, then, that numerous other ships also crashed on the same planet. We're just not shown them in the "artistic" cinematic of the event. You can choose to be optimistic or pessimistic... Bioware left it open.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 15, 2018 3:18:35 GMT
Its possible other ships crashed on planets, but when watching the ships fly by the damaged relay, it shows the same number of ships no matter the player's ems. Of course the scene isn't seen if ems is below 1750.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 15, 2018 4:48:42 GMT
I'm with themikefest on this one. I can't see how the people on the Normandy survived.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 6:18:54 GMT
I'm with themikefest on this one. I can't see how the people on the Normandy survived. Still, Bioware left it open. They didn't have to offer any sort of glimmer of movement in that scene; but they did. Some people will be pessimists and say, as you do, that no one could have survived and others will see it as a glimmer of hope that someone did survive to move that door. It's up to the player to interpret the ending(s) for themselves. That's why everything is as vague as it is. Shepard's breath is vague as well. It could be an indication that he/she lives or it could be a dying gasp. It's up to the player to decide how they want that to play out during any particular playthrough.
... and the crew survived the crash on the Collector Base with absolutely no injuries... so why couldn't they survive a crash on a planet. The crash itself should be no more forceful - falling out of the sky at pretty much max velocity should be the same sort of impact either way. The damage done to the thrusters was while the ship was still airborne, so that may have caused some injuries like shown in the SR-1 or if the SR-2 isn't upgraded (although the SR-2 in ME3 still has the upgraded armor and such to protect the crew).
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 15, 2018 7:37:44 GMT
I was not happy about the dependency on EMS for outcome in my first run. However, as I guessed it was going to be important to get it as high as possible I made a point of completing as much as I could. What really annoyed me was the fact that readiness could never be above 50% unless you did multi-player. Not knowing this in advance, I assumed 50% was as high as it could go. I thought having a 50/50 chance of success seemed reasonable odds so headed for earth. This was before the Extended Cut.
Then after experiencing the whole confusing ending, I came to the boards to see if I could get some light thrown on it and discovered that on high EMS destroy Shepard can be implied to have survived. I was puzzled. I thought I had done every mission that could be done, plus loads of planet scanning, so I didn't see how my EMS could be any higher or my readiness. A friend, who did multi-player, then told me this was what determined if you got the breath scene. Initially it would seem a reward given to people who did multi-player. Thankfully they corrected that with the Extended Cut.
I think I would have found it virtually impossible to get a low EMS ending. As I completed previous games with all my companions surviving (except Virmire) and had the requisites in place for optimum outcomes, I would definitely have had to ignore everything except main quests in ME3 to even remotely have a chance. To be honest, though, I don't really see the point. Clearly the negative outcomes of low EMS are there basically to punish players who just want to storm through ignoring much of the content or reward players who deliberately like have bad outcomes. I fall into neither categorically. I played ME because I wanted to save the galaxy from the Reapers with a few negative consequences as possible.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 15, 2018 8:31:54 GMT
... and the crew survived the crash on the Collector Base with absolutely no injuries... so why couldn't they survive a crash on a planet. The crash itself should be no more forceful - falling out of the sky at pretty much max velocity should be the same sort of impact either way. The damage done to the thrusters was while the ship was still airborne, so that may have caused some injuries like shown in the SR-1 or if the SR-2 isn't upgraded (although the SR-2 in ME3 still has the upgraded armor and such to protect the crew). That's sort of the nature of EMS and war assets. You choose to do things badly and everyone suffers - including the Normandy crew.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 12:38:20 GMT
... and the crew survived the crash on the Collector Base with absolutely no injuries... so why couldn't they survive a crash on a planet. The crash itself should be no more forceful - falling out of the sky at pretty much max velocity should be the same sort of impact either way. The damage done to the thrusters was while the ship was still airborne, so that may have caused some injuries like shown in the SR-1 or if the SR-2 isn't upgraded (although the SR-2 in ME3 still has the upgraded armor and such to protect the crew). That's sort of the nature of EMS and war assets. You choose to do things badly and everyone suffers - including the Normandy crew. In this case, I'm talking about comparative realism, not the EMS game mechanic. In both games, the Normandy crashes from space. In ME2, it suffers damage that is relatively easily repaired by only Joker and EDI (since the rest of the crew had been abducted and all of Shepard's squad mates are infiltrating the base. There are no injuries from the crash. Three deaths can occur if Shepard fails to upgrade; but all of those are before the ship crashes. All of a sudden in ME3, you're simply assuming that absolutely no one survives a low EMS crash even though:
1) The ship has been upgraded (there is no difference in the crash if the ship was not upgraded in ME2) 2) We are shown a door opening after the crash.
I'm absolutely OK with your choice to be pessimistic about it. Bioware obviously did the scene in such a way that it can legitimately be interpreted either way... regardless of how you played the game. Same with Shepard's breath... it's vague enough that, if a person wants to, they can still interpret it in such a way that their Shepard dies (hero sacrificing themselves for the greater good and all that). I really don't care how anyone actually interprets it for themselves... I'm just saying that Bioware did leave the openings so that the endings can be interpreted in different ways by different people. There is no singular "right" way to interpret them and there is no singular "right" ending for everyone. That is why I am very much against Bioware picking a canon ending. If they must lock down an ending to ME3, I would prefer then that they go totally off sheet and invent one that no one could have chosen or interpreted from what was done in ME3. With Andromeda, I also believe that they have a viable route to be able to continue the franchise into a distant future from the events of ME3 without declaring a canon ME3 ending state.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 15, 2018 13:17:30 GMT
and the crew survived the crash on the Collector Base with absolutely no injuries... so why couldn't they survive a crash on a planet. The crash itself should be no more forceful - falling out of the sky at pretty much max velocity should be the same sort of impact either way. The damage done to the thrusters was while the ship was still airborne, so that may have caused some injuries like shown in the SR-1 or if the SR-2 isn't upgraded (although the SR-2 in ME3 still has the upgraded armor and such to protect the crew). Why don't you make a thread mentioning that you believe both crashes are nearly the same so folks can either agree or disagree with you?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 14:47:22 GMT
and the crew survived the crash on the Collector Base with absolutely no injuries... so why couldn't they survive a crash on a planet. The crash itself should be no more forceful - falling out of the sky at pretty much max velocity should be the same sort of impact either way. The damage done to the thrusters was while the ship was still airborne, so that may have caused some injuries like shown in the SR-1 or if the SR-2 isn't upgraded (although the SR-2 in ME3 still has the upgraded armor and such to protect the crew). Why don't you make a thread mentioning that you believe both crashes are nearly the same so folks can either agree or disagree with you? AFAIK, people are free to agree or disagree with me or agree or disagree with each other as they wish. That was the point of my last post... Bioware left things vague so that people can interpret things in different ways. As far as I can see, it's a basic technique for writing RPGs that don't force the player into a singular playstyle or story interpretation... leave things vague enough that the player can fill in some bits with their own head canon.
The door opens on a low EMS ending. It's up to you to decide what opens it - a person who survived the crash or something else. Your choice, just like with Shepard's breath, is going to be based a lot on what you "want" to happen in your version of the story. No one knows for sure how long Shepard survives after taking that breath. Bioware didn't tell us... and that's deliberate on their part. The psychology of the high vs. low EMS is that people do want to earn that breath, so they do play more of the game to get the War Assets high enough to make it happen. Same with the visible condition of Normandy... people want to make it appear less damaged; but there is NOTHING in the game that tells us no one survived the crash in a low EMS ending and NOTHING that actually tells us everyone survived the high EMS crash. We see some of the squad mates, but we don't see all the crew, do we? Players can fill in the blanks however they like.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 15, 2018 18:02:32 GMT
That's sort of the nature of EMS and war assets. You choose to do things badly and everyone suffers - including the Normandy crew. In this case, I'm talking about comparative realism, not the EMS game mechanic. In both games, the Normandy crashes from space. In ME2, it suffers damage that is relatively easily repaired by only Joker and EDI (since the rest of the crew had been abducted and all of Shepard's squad mates are infiltrating the base. There are no injuries from the crash. Three deaths can occur if Shepard fails to upgrade; but all of those are before the ship crashes. All of a sudden in ME3, you're simply assuming that absolutely no one survives a low EMS crash even though:
1) The ship has been upgraded (there is no difference in the crash if the ship was not upgraded in ME2) 2) We are shown a door opening after the crash.
I'm absolutely OK with your choice to be pessimistic about it. Bioware obviously did the scene in such a way that it can legitimately be interpreted either way... regardless of how you played the game. Same with Shepard's breath... it's vague enough that, if a person wants to, they can still interpret it in such a way that their Shepard dies (hero sacrificing themselves for the greater good and all that). I really don't care how anyone actually interprets it for themselves... I'm just saying that Bioware did leave the openings so that the endings can be interpreted in different ways by different people. There is no singular "right" way to interpret them and there is no singular "right" ending for everyone. That is why I am very much against Bioware picking a canon ending. If they must lock down an ending to ME3, I would prefer then that they go totally off sheet and invent one that no one could have chosen or interpreted from what was done in ME3. With Andromeda, I also believe that they have a viable route to be able to continue the franchise into a distant future from the events of ME3 without declaring a canon ME3 ending state.
Well, think in these terms. If you don't do loyalty missions in ME2, the squadmates are much more likely to die. Similar type things are also true to some extent in ME3 (not helping Miranda, for instance). Translate LM's into EMS and you can see what I'm talking about.
I'm not so much a pessimist as I am in believer that actions (or lack of) have consequences, both on larger and smaller scales. Earth gets hit hard with a lower EMS - people and buildings are destroyed - but everything is intact with high EMS. Now consider symbolism. With the breath scene (only available with high EMS) we infer that Shepard survived. (Confirmed by writers.) In a low EMS, there is no breath scene and Shepard is dead. Furthering the symbolism, the Normandy crew exits the ship in the with high EMS but not low EMS. Then the ship itself. High EMS shows it mostly intact. Low EMS has these giant holes. At the very least, anyone on the CIC deck is dead. Joker is unlikely to have survived. Plus, we know two people were in the cockpit with Joker. There's no happy ending for the Normandy. Sure, we're not guaranteed everyone died but it doesn't look good. That's less pessimism and more realism. Then again, some hope isn't such a terrible thing.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 15, 2018 18:05:56 GMT
NOTHING that actually tells us everyone survived the high EMS crash. We see some of the squad mates, but we don't see all the crew, do we? Players can fill in the blanks however they like. Would you agree that since Adams name is not on the memorial wall, he survived? The same for Ken and Gabby and Chakwas/Michel. Of course their names, minus Michel, do show up if they died in ME2. It would be safe to say all named characters did survive, and since the only name/s that was added to the wall, since the last time I checked, after completing Cronos, is Anderson and possibly Shepard, that all onboard survived.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 18:47:56 GMT
NOTHING that actually tells us everyone survived the high EMS crash. We see some of the squad mates, but we don't see all the crew, do we? Players can fill in the blanks however they like. Would you agree that since Adams name is not on the memorial wall, he survived? The same for Ken and Gabby and Chakwas/Michel. Of course their names, minus Michel, do show up if they died in ME2. It would be safe to say all named characters did survive, and since the only name/s that was added to the wall, since the last time I checked, after completing Cronos, is Anderson and possibly Shepard, that all onboard survived. What about unnamed crew? There are unnamed crew who die in ME2 if you delay going to rescue them who are not given names just to add fodder to the wall? What about Hawkins? He appears in the infirmary at the end of ME2 if you save the crew, but I don't think his name is added to the wall if you don't. (I stand correct - his name is Hawthorne and he does appear) What is the numerical complement of the Normandy crew? It must be well over 20, since we find 20 dog tags during the Normandy Crash, not including Pressly (whose tag is not found) and we are told that most survived. Here's another twist - what about escape pods and why wouldn't some of the crew at least try using them before crashing on the planet you see at the end of ME3? We don't see the specifics of the crash itself. Even in a low EMS ending, it is obvious that Normandy SR-2 did not break up in space (explode) the way the SR-1 did. It is more damaged, but still basically intact. I see no reason some of the crew could not have survived even the low EMS crash. It does not appear more damaged than it did at the end of ME2 (other than the thrusters... which really just means it could not have been accelerating when it crashed beyond normal falling (terminal velocity).
You've said it yourself, the wall record isn't perfect either - something about Zaeed not showing up. As for the wall at the end of ME3, it really just becomes a record of who the player adds to the wall during the course of the game. The final scene could be easily explained in that Anderson's name was added first, then Shepard's and then the service would continue to add anyone else (in descending order of rank) who did not make it. Of course, in some of your playthroughs, you'd be out of room.
Why are you so driven to make sure that everyone interprets the endings YOUR way? I seems pretty obvious that there is intended leeway in Bioware's RPG games so that you can shape more than just your skill tree on your character. Otherwise, a story-driven RPG would not be one... It would be something more akin to any action-adventure game with a skill tree... say Borderlands or Rise of the Tomb Raider. The principal character would then be totally Bioware's. Simpler for them for sure... less interesting for us.
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