Mithras
N2
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 22:28:26 GMT
By the way, Fiona didn't provoke anyone, in fact she was very patient.
I saw refugees in the hills. I was there to hunt. I saw them but did not say hello because I was on the trail. The refugees were going to Redcliffe. They were slow and bent over when they walked like old men.
Templars came. They talked to the refugees. They hit them. The refugees gave food. Then mages came. The mages used fire. Everyone burned. I was in a bush, they did not see me.
Some templars killed the mages. The mages ran. The templars wanted to run after them. A refugee was still burning. His arm went up to a templar. The templar used his sword. It went up and down. Up and down. There were pieces of black.
He stayed while other templars ran after mages. He took things from bodies. One body was moving. It had long hair and burned dress. The templar started to take off his armor and I shot him.
I went down to the lady. She made little noises and her eyes looked at me. Then she died.
Tell you what, imagine for a moment that you were one of these refugees, who had absolutely nothing to do with mages or templars, and then tell me if you still think Fiona's calls for a war were the right thing to do.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 22:30:30 GMT
MithrasIf they just let the mages be free, and try to protect the people instead of killing every suspicious one, and the others... the war could have been averted. It's a very interesting opinion that a vote is something wrong... Did you read that book? The White Spire was horrible, also the Seekers and the Templars went mad. Lambert wanted to keep the Tranquility's secret, what is absolutely evil. Also demanded to make Tranquil Pharamond again... when it proved, the Tranquility doesn't prevent the possession, and Pharamond wanted to be dead again. Then why he didn't kill Pharamond instead of torture him?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2019 22:33:04 GMT
It does. He accuses them of treason, ordering them to surrender or be executed. He also threatens to execute them all if Rhys doesn’t confess to the murder of Pharamond, but will spare them if he does. Alright then. While I understand his desperation to avoid a rebellion that would cost; and did indeed cost; thousands of innocent lives as well as his fears of the rise of a second Imperium, I can't condone executing people just for attending a meeting where Fiona spoke of treason.
As far as I can tell, holding a vote for independence is not treason since if it was the Libertarians wouldn’t have been allowed to exist in the first place. The Nevarran Accords were made with a vote, and thus can be unmade with a vote. It’s just that for most of the Circle’s history the majority mages agreed it was the safest option for them.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 22:34:10 GMT
By the way, Fiona didn't provoke anyone, in fact she was very patient.
I saw refugees in the hills. I was there to hunt. I saw them but did not say hello because I was on the trail. The refugees were going to Redcliffe. They were slow and bent over when they walked like old men.
Templars came. They talked to the refugees. They hit them. The refugees gave food. Then mages came. The mages used fire. Everyone burned. I was in a bush, they did not see me.
Some templars killed the mages. The mages ran. The templars wanted to run after them. A refugee was still burning. His arm went up to a templar. The templar used his sword. It went up and down. Up and down. There were pieces of black.
He stayed while other templars ran after mages. He took things from bodies. One body was moving. It had long hair and burned dress. The templar started to take off his armor and I shot him.
I went down to the lady. She made little noises and her eyes looked at me. Then she died.
Tell you what, imagine for a moment that you were one of these refugees, who had absolutely nothing to do with mages or templars, and then tell me if you still think Fiona's calls for a war were the right thing to do. NOT Fiona started the war, the Seekers and the Templars did. If they just let the Mages be free, and try to focus on protect people, the war doesn't start. Cassandra also says that the Seekers started the war. And let's see their reasons... The mages wanted to be free. The Seekers/Templars started a war for their wounded pride.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2019 22:40:19 GMT
I see we’ve reached the part of the conversation where every person in each faction is made into apparently being mindless drones following the same monolithic viewpoint instead of each person in each group having individual reasons.
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Mithras
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 22:48:37 GMT
Alright then. While I understand his desperation to avoid a rebellion that would cost; and did indeed cost; thousands of innocent lives as well as his fears of the rise of a second Imperium, I can't condone executing people just for attending a meeting where Fiona spoke of treason.
As far as I can tell, holding a vote for independence is not treason since if it was the Libertarians wouldn’t have been allowed to exist in the first place. The Nevarran Accords were made with a vote, and thus can be unmade with a vote. It’s just that for most of the Circle’s history the majority mages agreed it was the safest option for them. Well, the independence of peoples and territories is always a controversial topic. Whether the conspirators are considered traitors or not tends to depend on who wins.
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Mithras
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 22:51:43 GMT
I see we’ve reached the part of the conversation where every person in each faction is made into apparently being mindless drones following the same monolithic viewpoint instead of each person in each group having individual reasons. I know, right? Plus the ridiculous bias. Watch, I can do it too:
"The mages wanted to increase the power of an already privileged class that has never had to toil a field a day in their lives while the Templars just wanted to protect the innocent."
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 22:57:02 GMT
I see we’ve reached the part of the conversation where every person in each faction is made into apparently being mindless drones following the same monolithic viewpoint instead of each person in each group having individual reasons. Because in this case, the "middle ground" is not exists. The only answer is the freedom. And after we can deal with the safety.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 23:00:03 GMT
As far as I can tell, holding a vote for independence is not treason since if it was the Libertarians wouldn’t have been allowed to exist in the first place. The Nevarran Accords were made with a vote, and thus can be unmade with a vote. It’s just that for most of the Circle’s history the majority mages agreed it was the safest option for them. Well, the independence of peoples and territories is always a controversial topic. Whether the conspirators are considered traitors or not tends to depend on who wins. Conspirators? Like Shartan and Andraste?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2019 23:03:02 GMT
As far as I can tell, holding a vote for independence is not treason since if it was the Libertarians wouldn’t have been allowed to exist in the first place. The Nevarran Accords were made with a vote, and thus can be unmade with a vote. It’s just that for most of the Circle’s history the majority mages agreed it was the safest option for them. Well, the independence of peoples and territories is always a controversial topic. Whether the conspirators are considered traitors or not tends to depend on who wins. This really doesn’t have anything to do with that though. Sure I get your point and all, but with how the lore worked it seems that the Circle and Templars breaking away was perfectly legal since otherwise those events wouldn’t have happened. I see we’ve reached the part of the conversation where every person in each faction is made into apparently being mindless drones following the same monolithic viewpoint instead of each person in each group having individual reasons. I know, right? Plus the ridiculous bias. Watch, I can do it too:
"The mages wanted to increase the power of an already privileged class that has never had to toil a field a day in their lives while the Templars just wanted to protect the innocent."
Um, you’ve been doing it too. Like when you talked about middle grounds as if all mages were condoning the radical actions you cited. This was something that bugged me about the games too, like the whole “You have to side with one group and everyone in the other group will become an enemy”. That annoyed me since it was a lazy way to not need to write other options, since if those existed you would have gotten members of both sides to join you and the only ones left would be the radicals. The games had their moments of nuance, like the mages and Templars who stayed loyal and became part of the Inquisition but for the most part it wasn’t handled well. I see we’ve reached the part of the conversation where every person in each faction is made into apparently being mindless drones following the same monolithic viewpoint instead of each person in each group having individual reasons. Because in this case, the "middle ground" is not exists. The only answer is the freedom. And after we can deal with the safety. Except it does exist. Middle ground always exists. We are part of an organization that is an example of that middle ground in DAI. We see and hear about many individuals who represent parts of that middle ground.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 23:12:50 GMT
Hanako IkezawaThe Inquisition was never for the "middle ground" but for the righteousness.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 7, 2019 23:42:37 GMT
First Inquisition perhaps, but the current Inquisition (aka. the player's Inquisition) at least imo. is about restoring order and everyone on their own decides how this is done. I personally would've liked for a third option to solve the mage/templar debacle, but seeing as we weren't given one, I make do
also, been quietly following this thread from the sidelines for a while now...and is it just me, or is this thread becoming a lot of... well...this? 'cause no offense, but you people are going back and forth and going in circles
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 23:56:56 GMT
LadyofNemesis As always. Especially because of no middle ground here. Hanako Ikezawa Which is the "middle ground" You imprison them on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and let them be free on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday-Sunday?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 0:06:07 GMT
LadyofNemesis As always. Especially because of no middle ground here. Hanako Ikezawa Which is the "middle ground" You imprison them on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and let them be free on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday-Sunday? For example: Childhood in the Circle learning to handle magic safely. Once old enough, if a mage proves they can handle magic safely they are allowed to leave. Every once in a while, Templar’s check on the mages to see if they are still okay or if they need to go back for a while if they aren’t safe until they are again. Mages get their freedom, Templar’s get their safety of all. Both sides win with middle ground. And that’s with putting barely any effort into thinking about it.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 8, 2019 0:26:25 GMT
Right, so it's okay for the Templars to have "accidents", but not the mages. Never said that. Only that just because Cole saw a number of Templars abusing their charges, doesn't mean that the White Spire itself was.
There's a huge divide between Greagoir and Meredith where you could first every Knight Commander in Thedas and still have room. I'll remind you that the Knight Commander from whom Lord Seeker Lambert took command allowed Rhys to have contact with spirits for the sake of experiments.
Does this sound like a Meredith at all? But sure, something mistakes will happen. Cole is one sad example.
And were the mages offering an halfway? With the Grand Enchanter continuously demanding for independence, the Resolutionists engaging in terror acts, mages trying to assassinate the Divine, etc? I don't deny that martial law is a drastic action but it is not collective punishment, not like what Meredith did. It was simply an attempt to maintain order in the middle of a state of emergency.
I am open to suggestions on what else could have been done but I certainly don't think that a madman's; and indeed, a madwoman's; murderous actions justify uprooting an institution that has kept most of Thedas safe from magic for nine centuries.
I don't defend what Lambert did. I'm just pointing out that the mage's leadership was just as willing to take drastic actions as the Templar's. If Fiona had not pushed for a second vote...if Adrian had not murdered Pharamond...if Lambert hadn't ordered the attack...maybe the war could have been averted. Please see above.
The White Spire was the only Circle Cole had been to. It's the only one he could have been referring to when talking about the abuses he witnessed. Greagoir was a notorious hardass, and yet even that was considered too permissive. There's not that much of a gulf between him and Meredith. Even if there were, it is entirely the luck of the draw whether a Circle gets a Greagoir or a Meredith whenever a Knight-Commander is replaced. That kind of uncertainty is one of the system's many flaws. The mages offered a halfway by clamping down on their initial impulse to secede over an egregious crime committed by the Templars. For that the Templars followed Meredith's example instead of demonstrating why the Circle system should be preserved. So now all mages are Resolutionists? All mages are attempting to assassinate the divine? Since you're the one bringing in real-world parallels, that sounds an awful lot like claiming that anyone of Arabic descent is a terrorist until proven otherwise. That attitude leads directly to the erosion of rights against people who have done nothing wrong except being born into a specific demographic, which is exactly what happened to the mages when the Templars stripped them of their supposed "right" to assemble and have a say in how the Circle was run. No, the Circle did not protect Thedas from magic. It caused the problems it was supposed to prevent. There are plenty of examples of mages who would otherwise have surrendered peacefully turning into abominations because they thought they would be executed or made Tranquil regardless of what they did. Parents hid their magical children because they didn't want to be permanently separated from them, preventing those children from learning to control their powers. Redcliff wouldn't have had its little undead problem if Isolde hadn't been so terrified of losing Connor forever, and Amelia Stannard didn't become an abomination until the Templars were literally on her family's doorstep. Even more importantly, the original purpose of the Circle of Magi was to protect the mages themselves. The mages weren't being protected. Quite the opposite. The Templars could and did inflict punishments that are considered torture under the Geneva Conventions. Is it any wonder Anders lost it after spending a year with no human contact? Corporal punishment is a known factor. The priest in Haven who relates her time in the Circle clearly wasn't at the Gallows or the White Spire. At any moment even well-behaved mages can find themselves punished for the actions of someone they've never even met. How many mages died from the Harrowing? The Templars didn't even wait thirty years before they started abusing the Right of Annulment. One illegal Annulment can be taken as a horrible fluke. Two gives plenty of reason to believe that there will be more. Yes, you are defending Lambert's actions. That's the only logical reason to make the "he was provoked" argument. The war could have been avoided if Meredith hadn't Annulled a Circle for a crime committed by an apostate. The war could have been avoided if the Templars had considered the possibility that the Circle mages had good reason to be outraged. The War could have been avoided if the Templars hadn't followed Meredith's example and punished innocent mages for crimes they did not commit. At every possible juncture, the Templars demonstrated that the mages could not trust them, and if the mages cannot trust the Templars, then the entire foundation of the system is gone.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 0:58:23 GMT
LadyofNemesis As always. Especially because of no middle ground here. Hanako Ikezawa Which is the "middle ground" You imprison them on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and let them be free on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday-Sunday? For example: Childhood in the Circle learning to handle magic safely. Once old enough, if a mage proves they can handle magic safely they are allowed to leave. Every once in a while, Templar’s check on the mages to see if they are still okay or if they need to go back for a while if they aren’t safe until they are again. Mages get their freedom, Templar’s get their safety of all. Both sides win with middle ground. And that’s with putting barely any effort into thinking about it. Oh, that the mess is the "middle ground". Of course, it is. The middle ground in this case doesn't exist. And you start point is a wrong. You insist the polarization: to the "two sides". That "two sides, shouldn't exist. The Templars aren't some special "group of people", The Templar Order is an organization. I have the real solution, where the people win. Everyone. Boarding school? Yes. Visiting parents, from time to time, yes. That revision from time to time, is a bullshit, doesn't prove anything. What means, the mages is safe... eh... absolutely unnecessary. Non-mages and mages together for safety, and the law is for everyone: for example – killing is bad. With magic or not, no matter.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 1:26:03 GMT
For example: Childhood in the Circle learning to handle magic safely. Once old enough, if a mage proves they can handle magic safely they are allowed to leave. Every once in a while, Templar’s check on the mages to see if they are still okay or if they need to go back for a while if they aren’t safe until they are again.
Mages get their freedom, Templar’s get their safety of all. Both sides win with middle ground. And that’s with putting barely any effort into thinking about it. Oh, that the mess is the "middle ground". Of course, it is. The middle ground in this case doesn't exist. And you start point is a wrong. You insist the polarization: to the "two sides". That "two sides, shouldn't exist. The Templars aren't some special "group of people", The Templar Order is an organization. I have the real solution, where the people win. Everyone. Boarding school? Yes. Visiting parents, from time to time, yes. That revision from time to time, is a bullshit, doesn't prove anything. What means, the mages is safe... eh... absolutely unnecessary. Non-mages and mages together for safety, and the law is for everyone: for example – killing is bad. With magic or not, no matter. Yes it does. Only those who are blinded won’t see that. I insisted no such thing. I only mentioned that it benefits both sides because those are the sides that need to be appealed to in order to change anything. Sure, family can visit. Don’t see why you needed to stress that since I never said they couldn’t. Yes, it is necessary for the free mages to be checked on from time to time. It’s needed for the safety of both the mages as well as the other citizens. Safety for the citizens by making sure the mage isn’t doing dangerous magic that threatens them or is an abomination, and safety for the mage because it’ll help them if they’re struggling as well as protect them from any citizen who would blame whatever on them since the Templars will say “They aren’t a threat.” Most laws would be universal sure, but just like how you need to take a drivers test every few years to prove you are safe to use a car and not kill people with it mages would need to do the same with their magic.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 2:29:35 GMT
Oh, that the mess is the "middle ground". Of course, it is. The middle ground in this case doesn't exist. And you start point is a wrong. You insist the polarization: to the "two sides". That "two sides, shouldn't exist. The Templars aren't some special "group of people", The Templar Order is an organization. I have the real solution, where the people win. Everyone. Boarding school? Yes. Visiting parents, from time to time, yes. That revision from time to time, is a bullshit, doesn't prove anything. What means, the mages is safe... eh... absolutely unnecessary. Non-mages and mages together for safety, and the law is for everyone: for example – killing is bad. With magic or not, no matter. Yes it does. Only those who are blinded won’t see that. I insisted no such thing. I only mentioned that it benefits both sides because those are the sides that need to be appealed to in order to change anything. Sure, family can visit. Don’t see why you needed to stress that since I never said they couldn’t. Yes, it is necessary for the free mages to be checked on from time to time. It’s needed for the safety of both the mages as well as the other citizens. Safety for the citizens by making sure the mage isn’t doing dangerous magic that threatens them or is an abomination, and safety for the mage because it’ll help them if they’re struggling as well as protect them from any citizen who would blame whatever on them since the Templars will say “They aren’t a threat.” Most laws would be universal sure, but just like how you need to take a drivers test every few years to prove you are safe to use a car and not kill people with it mages would need to do the same with their magic. So: this is a school. Then: what do you said, isn't "middle ground". I just needed to say that, because I wanted to be sure about your idea. So: what did you say, is the fucking freedom, what I spoke about. Only I don't get, how the "Templars" would say, "that mage is safe, and this isn't..." TOTALLY bullshit. Impossible to say. This isn't like a "drive test"... Also, only a mage able to say, someone possessed or not. Like Anders, or Merrill... a spirit healer/medium or a blood mage... not a Templar. And the possibility of the possession? Nobody can say. So which kind of test, that able to say, who is safe? But who committed a crime, mage or not, should go to the prison. In this case, the "middle ground isn't exist. As I said, and as you proved. Again: What you said, school and law, it's the freedom... the other things about this test just a nonsense, not safety, but pure bureaucracy, without any benefit. You just try to prove, how much "open-minded" you're to "both sides" – but your choice is Leliana.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 3:26:29 GMT
Yes it does. Only those who are blinded won’t see that. I insisted no such thing. I only mentioned that it benefits both sides because those are the sides that need to be appealed to in order to change anything.
Sure, family can visit. Don’t see why you needed to stress that since I never said they couldn’t. Yes, it is necessary for the free mages to be checked on from time to time. It’s needed for the safety of both the mages as well as the other citizens. Safety for the citizens by making sure the mage isn’t doing dangerous magic that threatens them or is an abomination, and safety for the mage because it’ll help them if they’re struggling as well as protect them from any citizen who would blame whatever on them since the Templars will say “They aren’t a threat.” Most laws would be universal sure, but just like how you need to take a drivers test every few years to prove you are safe to use a car and not kill people with it mages would need to do the same with their magic. So: this is a school. Then: what do you said, isn't "middle ground". I just needed to say that, because I wanted to be sure about your idea. So: what did you say, is the fucking freedom, what I spoke about. Only I don't get, how the "Templars" would say, "that mage is safe, and this isn't..." TOTALLY bullshit. Impossible to say. This isn't like a "drive test"... Also, only a mage able to say, someone possessed or not. Like Anders, or Merrill... a spirit healer/medium or a blood mage... not a Templar. And the possibility of the possession? Nobody can say. So which kind of test, that able to say, who is safe? But who committed a crime, mage or not, should go to the prison. In this case, the "middle ground isn't exist. As I said, and as you proved. Again: What you said, school and law, it's the freedom... the other things about this test just a nonsense, not safety, but pure bureaucracy, without any benefit. You just try to prove, how much "open-minded" you're to "both sides" – but your choice is Leliana. Well, it is a school you can;t leave until you pass the test to (and no, not the Harrowing. Something different). Um, okay whatever. The freedom is being able to live outside the Circle just like everybody else. Isn't that what you wanted? Then have the Templars be a group that also employs some mages to run those tests. Yes, they like everyone else would go to prison if they committed a crime (that said it'd have to be a mage prison since regular prisons probably couldn't hold up against magic). I've proven that middle group exists within a minute of thinking about it, destroying any argument that it couldn't happen. I don't get what you mean by the last part with Leliana?
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Dec 8, 2019 5:36:58 GMT
but just like how you need to take a drivers test every few years to prove you are safe to use a car Where is this a thing? Don't you live in California???
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 8:15:26 GMT
So: this is a school. Then: what do you said, isn't "middle ground". I just needed to say that, because I wanted to be sure about your idea. So: what did you say, is the fucking freedom, what I spoke about. Only I don't get, how the "Templars" would say, "that mage is safe, and this isn't..." TOTALLY bullshit. Impossible to say. This isn't like a "drive test"... Also, only a mage able to say, someone possessed or not. Like Anders, or Merrill... a spirit healer/medium or a blood mage... not a Templar. And the possibility of the possession? Nobody can say. So which kind of test, that able to say, who is safe? But who committed a crime, mage or not, should go to the prison. In this case, the "middle ground isn't exist. As I said, and as you proved. Again: What you said, school and law, it's the freedom... the other things about this test just a nonsense, not safety, but pure bureaucracy, without any benefit. You just try to prove, how much "open-minded" you're to "both sides" – but your choice is Leliana. Well, it is a school you can;t leave until you pass the test to (and no, not the Harrowing. Something different). Um, okay whatever. The freedom is being able to live outside the Circle just like everybody else. Isn't that what you wanted? Then have the Templars be a group that also employs some mages to run those tests. Yes, they like everyone else would go to prison if they committed a crime (that said it'd have to be a mage prison since regular prisons probably couldn't hold up against magic). I've proven that middle group exists within a minute of thinking about it, destroying any argument that it couldn't happen. I don't get what you mean by the last part with Leliana? I just wanted to say, your solution isn't middle ground. It's similar like I say constantly. Leliana isn't middle ground. Because of no middle ground here.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 8:34:32 GMT
Well, it is a school you can;t leave until you pass the test to (and no, not the Harrowing. Something different). Um, okay whatever. The freedom is being able to live outside the Circle just like everybody else. Isn't that what you wanted? Then have the Templars be a group that also employs some mages to run those tests. Yes, they like everyone else would go to prison if they committed a crime (that said it'd have to be a mage prison since regular prisons probably couldn't hold up against magic). I've proven that middle group exists within a minute of thinking about it, destroying any argument that it couldn't happen. I don't get what you mean by the last part with Leliana? I just wanted to say, your solution isn't middle ground. It's similar like I say constantly. Leliana isn't middle ground. Because of no middle ground here. I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to say, sorry.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 8:51:29 GMT
I just wanted to say, your solution isn't middle ground. It's similar like I say constantly. Leliana isn't middle ground. Because of no middle ground here. I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to say, sorry. Okay, once more... Your solution like my solution. This isn't "middle ground" – this is the freedom. And also safer than the Circle. No "middle ground" here. This is what Anders, Fiona, Adrian and Rhis wanted exactly.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 16:42:55 GMT
I honestly have no idea what this post is trying to say, sorry. Okay, once more... Your solution like my solution. This isn't "middle ground" – this is the freedom. And also safer than the Circle. No "middle ground" here. This is what Anders, Fiona, Adrian and Rhis wanted exactly. There is middle ground. The middle ground in that one is that while mages can be free, they need to still do the Circle from when they develop magic until they prove they can live in the outside world safely as well as having Templars check in every so often to make sure they are not a danger to themselves or others. People like Anders and Adrian didn’t want that oversight at all, and people like Fiona thought it shouldn’t involve Templars at all but only other mages.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,960 Likes: 24,343
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Post by melbella on Dec 8, 2019 17:30:27 GMT
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