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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 17:36:57 GMT
Oops. Oh, for your earlier question I thought that was universal. I know it is for certain vehicles, like if you drive semi trucks.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 17:55:23 GMT
Okay, once more... Your solution like my solution. This isn't "middle ground" – this is the freedom. And also safer than the Circle. No "middle ground" here. This is what Anders, Fiona, Adrian and Rhis wanted exactly. There is middle ground. The middle ground in that one is that while mages can be free, they need to still do the Circle from when they develop magic until they prove they can live in the outside world safely as well as having Templars check in every so often to make sure they are not a danger to themselves or others. People like Anders and Adrian didn’t want that oversight at all, and people like Fiona thought it shouldn’t involve Templars at all but only other mages. That kind of oversight is a bullshit. I said it already, why. Also, nobody like to involve the Templar Order, needs a new one: the name is matter a lot in this case – the order failed, but some of them would be welcomed in the new order. Only who are able to work with the mages. You don't know then what Anders, Fiona, Rhis and Andrian wanted.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2019 18:00:24 GMT
There is middle ground. The middle ground in that one is that while mages can be free, they need to still do the Circle from when they develop magic until they prove they can live in the outside world safely as well as having Templars check in every so often to make sure they are not a danger to themselves or others. People like Anders and Adrian didn’t want that oversight at all, and people like Fiona thought it shouldn’t involve Templars at all but only other mages. That kind of oversight is a bullshit. I said it already, why. Also, nobody like to involve the Templar Order, needs a new one: the name is matter a lot in this case – the order failed, but some of them would be welcomed in the new order. Only who are able to work with the mages. You don't know then what Anders, Fiona, Rhis and Andrian wanted. I don’t know why I bothered with you. Whether you believe or not is not required, since I’ve proven it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 18:47:58 GMT
That kind of oversight is a bullshit. I said it already, why. Also, nobody like to involve the Templar Order, needs a new one: the name is matter a lot in this case – the order failed, but some of them would be welcomed in the new order. Only who are able to work with the mages. You don't know then what Anders, Fiona, Rhis and Andrian wanted. I don’t know why I bothered with you. Whether you believe or not is not required, since I’ve proven it. You didn't prove it, just wrote about some driving aptitude test from time to time, but the law is different everywhere. Also, as I said, to be a mage, not like that. You can't say, that a mage safe or not, while you can prove, if a driver loses his eyesight. In the cases of the mages, it's absolutely unnecessary, only pure bureaucracy, that takes away the time from the actual situations. Accidents, crimes.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 8, 2019 19:59:20 GMT
Played DA2 ab 50-60 times and played both sides, but now in all my PTs ALWAYS side with Meredith. I know she is power-hungry, could be dangerous, harsh etc, but I can't side with a person who is a hypocrite and is involved in Hawke's mother death (new about that idiot blood mage, kept research, gave books etc). Hell, even your sister Beth is surprised and disappointed and tells him "you could have saved my mother!". Orsino is a hypocrite telling "no BMs....I even will help you to search the tower etc." (Yeah, sure, knowing what you do....no, thanks). But what do we see in the end? He uses BM and Meredith says true words "Such magic can't come out of thin air"! I know there are a lot of BMs and bad templars, but what I see in the end of Act 3 siding with templars: piles of deadmen with BMs near and templars fighting the mages AND abominations/shades/demons (one cutscene with a young girl where she became abomination - also just like that, out of nowhere?). I am not defending Meredith or templars here (even Cass in DA2 or DAI mentions Meredith harsh methods but also lots of BM cases), BUT there will always be mage-templar conflict in DAU and for now at least templars are the only ones who can protect people (remember Wynne or Viv words how easy it is to forget that magic is dangerous and here we are - easy magic, abominations etc). So: side with power-hungry, lunatic Meredith and then just kill her (but before kill hypocrite Orsino). Period.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 20:09:02 GMT
Played DA2 ab 50-60 times and played both sides, but now in all my PTs ALWAYS side with Meredith. I know she is power-hungry, could be dangerous, harsh etc, but I can't side with a person who is a hypocrite and is involved in Hawke's mother death (new about that idiot blood mage, kept research, gave books etc). Hell, even your sister Beth is surprised and disappointed and tells him "you could have saved my mother!". Orsino is a hypocrite telling "no BMs....I even will help you to search the tower etc." (Yeah, sure, knowing what you do....no, thanks). But what do we see in the end? He uses BM and Meredith says true words "Such magic can't come out of thin air"! I know there are a lot of BMs and bad templars, but what I see in the end of Act 3 siding with templars: piles of deadmen with BMs near and templars fighting the mages AND abominations/shades/demons (one cutscene with a young girl where she became abomination - also just like that, out of nowhere?). I am not defending Meredith or templars here (even Cass in DA2 or DAI mentions Meredith harsh methods but also lots of BM cases), BUT there will always be mage-templar conflict in DAU and for now at least templars are the only ones who can protect people (remember Wynne or Viv words how easy it is to forget that magic is dangerous and here we are - easy magic, abominations etc). So: side with power-hungry, lunatic Meredith and then just kill her (but before kill hypocrite Orsino). Period. But Hawke at the moment doesn't know, that s/he will be able to face Meredith in battle, only see, she wants to kill every mage in the Tower, including Bethany. Also: if you side Meredith, Hawke should accept, she will kill everyone in the Circle – but if Hawke tries to protect the mages, s/he doesn't even have to sympathize Orsino or Anders. Just to protect the innocents, including children in the Tower, like Wynne did in Origins. Also: Wynne is absolutely not similar as Vivienne, she would never stand by such an annulment, while I'm sure, Vivienne would choose Meredith. Also, Meredith's manipulative in the last scene... she almost cries, when already she waited for that moment.
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Posts: 1,992 Likes: 3,512
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 8, 2019 21:05:57 GMT
But Hawke at the moment doesn't know, that s/he will be able to face Meredith in battle, only see, she wants to kill every mage in the Tower, including Bethany. I'm inclined to agree. That whole sequence isn't set up as a question of whether you agree with Templar policies in general, or sympathize enough with mages to grant them freedom. It's really just a question of whether you're ready to get your hands dirty protecting people from a madwoman, come what may. Which few fantasy protagonists would refuse. It only turns out Orsino and a lot of the other mages are compromised later. Maybe if the actual Kirkwall mages' circle and the dirt that seems to have been going on there had played a real part in the game, annulling it wouldn't seem like such a crazy out-of-left-field reaction on Meredith's part. That's why I haven't actually ever sided with Meredith in the game's ending, though I'm planning to next time. You'd have to play Hawke some very specific ways for them to decide that "Whatever, guess I'll join in exterminating the mages because Anders is insane?" whereas "Are you crazy? I can't let you do that!" is right out of the RPG hero handbook. Even just sitting the whole thing out and doing crowd control at the Gallows would have been a less extreme alternative if you're "pro-Templar", since actually doing the Templars' job for them isn't in any way shape or form Hawke's responsibility. In any case the series has really never done the Templars' side of the argument justice, treating every corrupt or overzealous Templar as a representative of a corrupt and overzealous order, and every mad blood mage or abomination as an "exception to the rule" or an outsider who isn't relevant to the oppressed mages.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 8, 2019 21:14:05 GMT
Played DA2 ab 50-60 times and played both sides, but now in all my PTs ALWAYS side with Meredith. I know she is power-hungry, could be dangerous, harsh etc, but I can't side with a person who is a hypocrite and is involved in Hawke's mother death (new about that idiot blood mage, kept research, gave books etc). Hell, even your sister Beth is surprised and disappointed and tells him "you could have saved my mother!". Orsino is a hypocrite telling "no BMs....I even will help you to search the tower etc." (Yeah, sure, knowing what you do....no, thanks). But what do we see in the end? He uses BM and Meredith says true words "Such magic can't come out of thin air"! I know there are a lot of BMs and bad templars, but what I see in the end of Act 3 siding with templars: piles of deadmen with BMs near and templars fighting the mages AND abominations/shades/demons (one cutscene with a young girl where she became abomination - also just like that, out of nowhere?). I am not defending Meredith or templars here (even Cass in DA2 or DAI mentions Meredith harsh methods but also lots of BM cases), BUT there will always be mage-templar conflict in DAU and for now at least templars are the only ones who can protect people (remember Wynne or Viv words how easy it is to forget that magic is dangerous and here we are - easy magic, abominations etc). So: side with power-hungry, lunatic Meredith and then just kill her (but before kill hypocrite Orsino). Period. But Hawke at the moment doesn't know, that s/he will be able to face Meredith in battle, only see, she wants to kill every mage in the Tower, including Bethany. Also: if you side Meredith, Hawke should accept, she will kill everyone in the Circle – but if Hawke tries to protect the mages, s/he doesn't even have to sympathize Orsino or Anders. Just to protect the innocents, including children in the Tower, like Wynne did in Origins. Also: Wynne is absolutely not similar as Vivienne, she would never stand by such an annulment, while I'm sure, Vivienne would choose Meredith. Also, Meredith's manipulative in the last scene... she almost cries, when already she waited for that moment. You know, looking at Meredith the very first time after killing the Arishok I already saw that Meredith treated Hawke as a threat to her power. I wrote already that see Meredith as a lunatic, dangerous person, there are bad templars (though atm only templars can protect people from BMs and there are lots of them). But I always help mages if see they are no threat (like that girl in Anders's quest, Feynriel goes to Tevinter - don't know if it is a good thing considering we have a quest "Who needs rescuing?", so Feynriel already started to seduce girls in dreams or what? =) This Circle is the worse - there is no question. Meredith abuses her power, Orsino is a BM and hypocrite, BMs are everywhere, GC is useless anyway here.....I can continure on and on. Everything is bad in this city. But I will put it this way: I have no choice but to choose here. And I really don't like that my poor Hawkes are right in the middle of all that shit (so much for luck): save the city, solve others' problemes, choose sides....(at least in DAI my Hawkes can live in peace helping Varric). I HAVE TO CHOOSE. And I choose to side with templars (NB! I don't protect Meredith and templar-assholes here), because in all my PTs I saw more BMs in quests, though (NB again) I know there are good mages whom I help, I know mages are treated bad. But as Varric says in Act 3 - the storm is coming very soon, no doubt something MUST happen soon and there WILL be mage-templar war (especially with such useless GC). So soon there will be the end of this nightmare, some actions will be taken knowing about lunatic-Meredith, BM-Orsino, red templars, BMS in the city and nearby etc. P.S I mentioned Wynne and Viv in regard of how dangerous magic can be and mages can forget about it very easy.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2019 21:57:28 GMT
But Hawke at the moment doesn't know, that s/he will be able to face Meredith in battle, only see, she wants to kill every mage in the Tower, including Bethany. I'm inclined to agree. That whole sequence isn't set up as a question of whether you agree with Templar policies in general, or sympathize enough with mages to grant them freedom. It's really just a question of whether you're ready to get your hands dirty protecting people from a madwoman, come what may. Which few fantasy protagonists would refuse. It only turns out Orsino and a lot of the other mages are compromised later. Maybe if the actual Kirkwall mages' circle and the dirt that seems to have been going on there had played a real part in the game, annulling it wouldn't seem like such a crazy out-of-left-field reaction on Meredith's part. That's why I haven't actually ever sided with Meredith in the game's ending, though I'm planning to next time. You'd have to play Hawke some very specific ways for them to decide that "Whatever, guess I'll join in exterminating the mages because Anders is insane?" whereas "Are you crazy? I can't let you do that!" is right out of the RPG hero handbook. Even just sitting the whole thing out and doing crowd control at the Gallows would have been a less extreme alternative if you're "pro-Templar", since actually doing the Templars' job for them isn't in any way shape or form Hawke's responsibility. In any case the series has really never done the Templars' side of the argument justice, treating every corrupt or overzealous Templar as a representative of a corrupt and overzealous order, and every mad blood mage or abomination as an "exception to the rule" or an outsider who isn't relevant to the oppressed mages. That's what I said exactly. Hawke doesn't have to agree with Anders or Orsino to protect the mages. Also, the mages will leave as quickly as they are able, so: Kirkwall is safe, they don't even want to see back, I suppose, and the Templars have replenishment, the mages just their own. The Templars don't need help. But I can't agree with that, the Templars don't have enough arguments on their side by the games. The BioWare really tried to show, how dangerous is the magic (and no one deny that) – not just in DA2, but in DAO (think about it: I think, DAO shows harder situation with magic, than DA2, and Gaider later afraid, they put in DA2 too much mad mages, while the big majority of them, aren't like that) but still: it really hard to justify the Circles in this form, this is why people rather chose the mages. Once I did the Viscount end – for Carver. I really tried to explain (I hate to hate my protags, and this Hawke was not a bad guy...), but I was not able to understand. No matter how Hawke try to explain, no matter, that Varric tends to agree more that choice, it just as bad feeling as I thought, so never more. Oh, and argument of justice? I'm all for justice for Templars. They should be free as well...
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,992 Likes: 3,512
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 9, 2019 1:01:13 GMT
But I can't agree with that, the Templars don't have enough arguments on their side by the games. The BioWare really tried to show, how dangerous is the magic (and no one deny that) – not just in DA2, but in DAO (think about it: I think, DAO shows harder situation with magic, than DA2, and Gaider later afraid, they put in DA2 too much mad mages, while the big majority of them, aren't like that) but still: it really hard to justify the Circles in this form, this is why people rather chose the mages. Once I did the Viscount end – for Carver. I really tried to explain (I hate to hate my protags, and this Hawke was not a bad guy...), but I was not able to understand. No matter how Hawke try to explain, no matter, that Varric tends to agree more that choice, it just as bad feeling as I thought, so never more. Nah. The Templars have an abundance of arguments, they just don't get enough time onscreen and you don't get a chance to ever have a real conversation with one about why the circles work the way they do. So they never get a chance to properly make their point. And I think what's happening isn't that people are rejecting the circles because they're inherently a terrible idea, I think we've just become so spoiled with comforts and freedom that the notion of those things being taken away from anyone, even in a hypothetical scenario where it's literally saving the world, is abhorrent to us, so we reject it out of hand. That, and a lack of historical knowledge and perspective on exactly how hard life must be for people everywhere outside the circles, skewing people toward pitying the mages for not having windows and not ultimately feeling safe when most people in Thedas could never imagine the luxury or security they're living in, not to mention the freedom to pursue interests and studies that appeal to them within the towers. For example, I could bet you that proportionately more Thedasian peasants die miserably of the common cold than there are mages who ever actually feel a Templar's blade while living in the circles. We don't know for sure because Bioware doesn't dare give us specific numbers on anything. But it wouldn't be an unrealistic proposition based on the circles we've seen. I'd also wager that proportionately more young women are married off against their will and die in childbirth before 20 than female circle mages are made tranquil. That proportionately more men starve or freeze to death on Denerim's or Kirkwall's or Val Royeaux's streets than there are male circle mages who even remember what true cold or hunger feels like. Because concerns like those aren't relevant for us anymore we tend to discount them. But for the average Thedasian they're facts of life. And circle mages are one of the tiny population groups who are free from those things which can be far more cruel and capricious and merciless than any Templar.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 9, 2019 1:29:42 GMT
But I can't agree with that, the Templars don't have enough arguments on their side by the games. The BioWare really tried to show, how dangerous is the magic (and no one deny that) – not just in DA2, but in DAO (think about it: I think, DAO shows harder situation with magic, than DA2, and Gaider later afraid, they put in DA2 too much mad mages, while the big majority of them, aren't like that) but still: it really hard to justify the Circles in this form, this is why people rather chose the mages. Once I did the Viscount end – for Carver. I really tried to explain (I hate to hate my protags, and this Hawke was not a bad guy...), but I was not able to understand. No matter how Hawke try to explain, no matter, that Varric tends to agree more that choice, it just as bad feeling as I thought, so never more. Nah. The Templars have an abundance of arguments, they just don't get enough time onscreen and you don't get a chance to ever have a real conversation with one about why the circles work the way they do. So they never get a chance to properly make their point. And I think what's happening isn't that people are rejecting the circles because they're inherently a terrible idea, I think we've just become so spoiled with comforts and freedom that the notion of those things being taken away from anyone, even in a hypothetical scenario where it's literally saving the world, is abhorrent to us, so we reject it out of hand. That, and a lack of historical knowledge and perspective on exactly how hard life must be for people everywhere outside the circles, skewing people toward pitying the mages for not having windows and not ultimately feeling safe when most people in Thedas could never imagine the luxury or security they're living in, not to mention the freedom to pursue interest and studies that appeal to them within the towers. For example, I could bet you that proportionately more Thedasian peasants die miserably of the common cold than there are mages who ever actually feel a Templar's blade while living in the circles. We don't know for sure because Bioware doesn't dare give us specific numbers on anything. But it wouldn't be an unrealistic proposition based on the circles we've seen. I'd also wager that proportionately more young women are married off against their will and die in childbirth before 20 than female circle mages are made tranquil. That proportionately more men starve or freeze to death on Denerim's or Kirkwall's or Val Royeaux's streets than there are male circle mages who even remember what true cold or hunger feels like. Because concerns like those aren't relevant for us anymore we tend to discount them. But for the average Thedasian they're facts of life. And circle mages are one of the tiny population groups who are free from those things which can be far more cruel and capricious and merciless than any Templar. Oh, bed and food... safety... (well, not real safety, I think rather paranoid, claustrophobic life – that what I saw in Kinloch Hold, and the Tranquils...), but worth to live if you can't see anything else, just the walls of the tower? Without privacy? Which kind of life that, especially if not you chose? Also: Thedas isn't a medieval world. It's mixed a lot. I your eyes, the slavery is good, as Dorian said. And some luxury slaves exist, some slaves can buy their freedom. Fenris paid for Varania's and his mother's. Varania was not happy with the freedom, she was envious to Fenris' life. "Freedom was no boon"... Dorian may be right? I don't think so, for a moment. Don't forget: Jowan would choose rather be a farmer if he can have a family, like Hawke's father. You speak about that the desire of freedom is something modern, but not. Ancient enough. Also: what we didn't hear about the Templars' and Circle-view? Wynne, Irving, Gregoir, Ser Otto, Cullen, Ser Trask, Emeric, Fenris, Meredith (her story), Cassandra, Cullen again, Vivienne, Minaeve... etc, etc, etc... In fact, the whole Inquisition tried to show the Templar/Circle view. Morrigan, Jowan, Anders, Bethany, Merrill, Fiona here like a fresh air. Non-mage supporters are Zevran and Isabela.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 9, 2019 1:54:02 GMT
But I can't agree with that, the Templars don't have enough arguments on their side by the games. The BioWare really tried to show, how dangerous is the magic (and no one deny that) – not just in DA2, but in DAO (think about it: I think, DAO shows harder situation with magic, than DA2, and Gaider later afraid, they put in DA2 too much mad mages, while the big majority of them, aren't like that) but still: it really hard to justify the Circles in this form, this is why people rather chose the mages. Once I did the Viscount end – for Carver. I really tried to explain (I hate to hate my protags, and this Hawke was not a bad guy...), but I was not able to understand. No matter how Hawke try to explain, no matter, that Varric tends to agree more that choice, it just as bad feeling as I thought, so never more. Nah. The Templars have an abundance of arguments, they just don't get enough time onscreen and you don't get a chance to ever have a real conversation with one about why the circles work the way they do. So they never get a chance to properly make their point. And I think what's happening isn't that people are rejecting the circles because they're inherently a terrible idea, I think we've just become so spoiled with comforts and freedom that the notion of those things being taken away from anyone, even in a hypothetical scenario where it's literally saving the world, is abhorrent to us, so we reject it out of hand. That, and a lack of historical knowledge and perspective on exactly how hard life must be for people everywhere outside the circles, skewing people toward pitying the mages for not having windows and not ultimately feeling safe when most people in Thedas could never imagine the luxury or security they're living in, not to mention the freedom to pursue interests and studies that appeal to them within the towers. For example, I could bet you that proportionately more Thedasian peasants die miserably of the common cold than there are mages who ever actually feel a Templar's blade while living in the circles. We don't know for sure because Bioware doesn't dare give us specific numbers on anything. But it wouldn't be an unrealistic proposition based on the circles we've seen. I'd also wager that proportionately more young women are married off against their will and die in childbirth before 20 than female circle mages are made tranquil. That proportionately more men starve or freeze to death on Denerim's or Kirkwall's or Val Royeaux's streets than there are male circle mages who even remember what true cold or hunger feels like. Because concerns like those aren't relevant for us anymore we tend to discount them. But for the average Thedasian they're facts of life. And circle mages are one of the tiny population groups who are free from those things which can be far more cruel and capricious and merciless than any Templar. Yeah, when you look at things like Dust Town, the Alienages, slaves, and even human settlements or Dalish clans the Circle mages are actually mid-upper class people so many of the complaints come across as a bit entitled. Many complaints are valid, but they aren’t anywhere close to the most oppressed in Thedas.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 9, 2019 2:01:04 GMT
Nah. The Templars have an abundance of arguments, they just don't get enough time onscreen and you don't get a chance to ever have a real conversation with one about why the circles work the way they do. So they never get a chance to properly make their point.
And I think what's happening isn't that people are rejecting the circles because they're inherently a terrible idea, I think we've just become so spoiled with comforts and freedom that the notion of those things being taken away from anyone, even in a hypothetical scenario where it's literally saving the world, is abhorrent to us, so we reject it out of hand.
That, and a lack of historical knowledge and perspective on exactly how hard life must be for people everywhere outside the circles, skewing people toward pitying the mages for not having windows and not ultimately feeling safe when most people in Thedas could never imagine the luxury or security they're living in, not to mention the freedom to pursue interests and studies that appeal to them within the towers.
For example, I could bet you that proportionately more Thedasian peasants die miserably of the common cold than there are mages who ever actually feel a Templar's blade while living in the circles. We don't know for sure because Bioware doesn't dare give us specific numbers on anything. But it wouldn't be an unrealistic proposition based on the circles we've seen.
I'd also wager that proportionately more young women are married off against their will and die in childbirth before 20 than female circle mages are made tranquil.
That proportionately more men starve or freeze to death on Denerim's or Kirkwall's or Val Royeaux's streets than there are male circle mages who even remember what true cold or hunger feels like.
Because concerns like those aren't relevant for us anymore we tend to discount them. But for the average Thedasian they're facts of life. And circle mages are one of the tiny population groups who are free from those things which can be far more cruel and capricious and merciless than any Templar. Yeah, when you look at things like Dust Town, the Alienages, slaves, and even human settlements or Dalish clans the Circle mages are actually mid-upper class people so many of the complaints come across as a bit entitled. Many complaints are valid, but they aren’t anywhere close to the most oppressed in Thedas. This is an oppression-race?
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,992 Likes: 3,512
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Noxluxe
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 9, 2019 2:15:42 GMT
Oh, bed and food... safety... but worth to live if you can't see anything else, just the walls of the tower? Without privacy? Which kind of life that, especially if not you chose? Also: Thedas isn't a medieval world. It's mixed a lot. I your eyes, the slavery is good, as Dorian said. And some luxury slaves exist, some slaves can buy their freedom. Fenris paid for Varania's and his mother's. Varania was not happy with the freedom, she was envious to Fenris' life. "Freedom was no boon"... Dorian may be right? I don't think so, for a moment. Don't forget: Jowan would choose rather be a farmer if he can have a family, like Hawke's father. You speak about that the desire of freedom is something modern, but not. Ancient enough. Thedas is medieval enough that those things are definitely still a concern for the common man. And as I said, mages are free to pursue interests and studies of their own volition, something only the very elite of society will be for hundreds and hundreds of years. And even longer if mages engineer yet another lovely cataclysm to set it back economically. Which isn't looking too unlikely going into the fourth game. Jowan has no idea what it means to be a farmer. He's never plowed a field in his life, let alone watched his children starve to death while having to preserve his grain for next year because of a bad crop. I suppose it's possible he'd be happier with such an existence, but certainly not by so much that it'd be worth endangering civilians over it. The idea of freedom as living without anyone having power over you is absolutely modern, because that's never been the case for anyone in history until the last few hundred years. From bitter tribal warfare to ruthless feudalism, people have lived under each other's thumbs and under the threat of death for not toeing the line for as long as they have been people. Thedas' current world order is no exception. Except that the most egregious crimes against other people's freedoms and safety are funnily enough all performed by mages.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 9, 2019 2:39:36 GMT
Oh, bed and food... safety... but worth to live if you can't see anything else, just the walls of the tower? Without privacy? Which kind of life that, especially if not you chose? Also: Thedas isn't a medieval world. It's mixed a lot. I your eyes, the slavery is good, as Dorian said. And some luxury slaves exist, some slaves can buy their freedom. Fenris paid for Varania's and his mother's. Varania was not happy with the freedom, she was envious to Fenris' life. "Freedom was no boon"... Dorian may be right? I don't think so, for a moment. Don't forget: Jowan would choose rather be a farmer if he can have a family, like Hawke's father. You speak about that the desire of freedom is something modern, but not. Ancient enough. Thedas is medieval enough that those things are definitely still a concern for the common man. And as I said, mages are free to pursue interests and studies of their own volition, something only the very elite of society will be for hundreds and hundreds of years. And even longer if mages engineer yet another lovely cataclysm to set it back economically. Which isn't looking too unlikely going into the fourth game. Jowan has no idea what it means to be a farmer. He's never plowed a field in his life, let alone watched his children starve to death while having to preserve his grain for next year because of a bad crop. I suppose it's possible he'd be happier with such an existence, but certainly not by so much that it'd be worth endangering civilians over it. The idea of freedom as living without anyone having power over you is absolutely modern, because that's never been the case for anyone in history until the last few hundred years. From bitter tribal warfare to ruthless feudalism, people have lived under each other's thumbs and under the threat of death for not toeing the line for as long as they have been people. Thedas' current world order is no exception. Except that the most egregious crimes against other people's freedoms and safety are funnily enough all performed by mages. No. it's a very ancient idea. And it existed as philosophy as well among the educated people. The mages are educated. They don't have anything else but time and books. And we didn't speak yet about the slaves, later the peasants, subjugated nations/people, rebelled... That's absolutely not modern. The independence isn't a modern idea. There was no humanity without this idea. Andraste and Shartan rebelled for freedom. Centuries ago.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 9, 2019 2:43:43 GMT
Oh, bed and food... safety... but worth to live if you can't see anything else, just the walls of the tower? Without privacy? Which kind of life that, especially if not you chose? Also: Thedas isn't a medieval world. It's mixed a lot. I your eyes, the slavery is good, as Dorian said. And some luxury slaves exist, some slaves can buy their freedom. Fenris paid for Varania's and his mother's. Varania was not happy with the freedom, she was envious to Fenris' life. "Freedom was no boon"... Dorian may be right? I don't think so, for a moment. Don't forget: Jowan would choose rather be a farmer if he can have a family, like Hawke's father. You speak about that the desire of freedom is something modern, but not. Ancient enough. Thedas is medieval enough that those things are definitely still a concern for the common man. And as I said, mages are free to pursue interests and studies of their own volition, something only the very elite of society will be for hundreds and hundreds of years. And even longer if mages engineer yet another lovely cataclysm to set it back economically. Which isn't looking too unlikely going into the fourth game. Jowan has no idea what it means to be a farmer. He's never plowed a field in his life, let alone watched his children starve to death while having to preserve his grain for next year because of a bad crop. I suppose it's possible he'd be happier with such an existence, but certainly not by so much that it'd be worth endangering civilians over it. The idea of freedom as living without anyone having power over you is absolutely modern, because that's never been the case for anyone in history until the last few hundred years. From bitter tribal warfare to ruthless feudalism, people have lived under each other's thumbs and under the threat of death for not toeing the line for as long as they have been people. Thedas' current world order is no exception. Except that the most egregious crimes against other people's freedoms and safety are funnily enough all performed by mages. That’s the irony isn’t it? Even with freedom from the Circles the mages are no more free then they were under them, having only traded the Templars for the nobility and royalty which as we’ve seen can be just as cruel.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,992 Likes: 3,512
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 9, 2019 6:15:10 GMT
That’s the irony isn’t it? Even with freedom from the Circles the mages are no more free then they were under them, having only traded the Templars for the nobility and royalty which as we’ve seen can be just as cruel. Yup. As Fiona finds out, the "freedom" from Templar oversight is also the freedom to scramble all over the continent foraging for food being bullied, enslaved and exploited by whomsoever thought they had a use for a bunch of mages with no strings attached, because that's how the world works outside the protection of the system. So far I've only pressed the mage rebellion into my service in Inquisition, and the impression I've come away with each time is that they're relieved as all hell to return to some kind of stability even at the cost of the freedom Anders insisted they wanted... except that some of them are dissatisfied that they'll have to share rooms. Share rooms. In a world where the average family would be lucky to have a bedroom for mom and dad and another for everyone else. It's not their fault, they don't know any better, but it's still hard to sympathize with how "oppressed" they are when they're shown to be some of the happiest and most relaxed and privileged people in all of Thedas.
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sageoflife
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 9, 2019 6:45:46 GMT
The "safety" provided by the Circles is an illusion. Meredith wasn't the first to demonstrate that.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 9, 2019 11:03:40 GMT
As I wrote somewhere, in DAU there will always be some confrontation btw mages and templars. That we meet some assholes who burn the house, kill a family, abuse his/her power to rape someone - they are just asshole who happen to be mages or templars. They are not bad because they are templars or mages, they are bad because they are just bad people who happen to be mages or templars. Bad people are met everywhere. In DA2 we see that a templar in Ander's quest abuses his power (like to take Varric there who says "It's the Devine herlself. Came to tell you in person what a jackass you are"). If he abuses his power as a templar, it doesn't mean all templars are bad. Meredith methods are harsh - no question, even Cass tells it but also tells there are a lot of cases of BM so Meredith, even with her harsh methods, at least did something to protect people from BMs, no matter how power-hungry she was. If not for tempars in the city, can you imagine what could even happen considering how many BMs there are in and out of the city, including Orsino? And watching the final battle if siding with templars mages use demons, shades, abominaitions to fight, so there are indeed BMs in the tower as well. Even if there are good mages and children. Wynne and Viv tell you that mages need some place to learn magic, so Circles are the only place to do it safely in this DAU for now. Otherwise where can they teach and control themselves? FOR NOW there is no other option. If a person is a mage, that sucks, yeah, but it is the best solution to be in the circle. Bad things can happen in the circle, but you can be killled or raped as well out of the circle. Yes, mages lack some freedoms, they feel is it unjust. Maybe it is, but what do you propose? let them go? We see in DAI what can happpen. So for now Circles are needed to train mages. Templars are needed to watch nothing goes wrong (like Jowan e.g.). FOR now you can't control all towers and be sure that templars don't abuse their powers or mages don't do anything aweful (like Jowan - even Irving ad Gregoir knew about him). FOR NOW I see no alternative but to be as it is, as I have just written. P.S. there are problemes everywhere, Dalish clans could become bandits, or remember city origin? (my favorite just the worst DAorigin IMO). So not only mages suffer, but as Cassandra in DAI said in Cullen quest "mages like to complain, not like templars." Mages will always complain, there will always be something wrong how you treat them (no freedom, small rooms or whatever - in DAI take them in and listen). As I wrote - it sucks to be a mage in DAU but we see as well good examples like Wynne, Irving, Viv (who met bad templats as well, but in her case money helped). As a conslusion: you can't now solve mages-templars probleme. There is nothing you can do to make everyone happy. FOR NOW the best solution, even if there are proplemes, are Circles.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 9, 2019 11:55:29 GMT
That’s the irony isn’t it? Even with freedom from the Circles the mages are no more free then they were under them, having only traded the Templars for the nobility and royalty which as we’ve seen can be just as cruel. Yup. As Fiona finds out, the "freedom" from Templar oversight is also the freedom to scramble all over the continent foraging for food being bullied, enslaved and exploited by whomsoever thought they had a use for a bunch of mages with no strings attached, because that's how the world works outside the protection of the system. So far I've only pressed the mage rebellion into my service in Inquisition, and the impression I've come away with each time is that they're relieved as all hell to return to some kind of stability even at the cost of the freedom Anders insisted they wanted... except that some of them are dissatisfied that they'll have to share rooms. Share rooms. In a world where the average family would be lucky to have a bedroom for mom and dad and another for everyone else.It's not their fault, they don't know any better, but it's still hard to sympathize with how "oppressed" they are when they're shown to be some of the happiest and most relaxed and privileged people in all of Thedas. 1. They're family. 2. Did you see Gamlen's hut?
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Post by fylimar on Dec 9, 2019 11:57:52 GMT
I agree, that the freedom, the mages want, is an ideal. The reality looks different for the inhabitants of Thedas. And noxluxe described the hardship of living in a medieval society well. Some mages might do well in the 'real' world, but a lot of them will become victims to people,who take advantage of their inexperience with all things life. I like the idea of a school, where mages can learn to use their magic responsible and simultaneous, they live among the other people and - if all went well - might be fulyl integrated into society. As Lovecraft put it: Fear is the strongest emotion of mankind and the greatest fear is the fear of the unknown (paraphrasing here, I don't have the quotation at hand at the moment). If it becomes normal that mages live among the other citizens of Thedas, fear might go away - or at least become bearable. But I also agree, that there will probably always be some kind of misunderstanding between templars and mages - especially now, they have started a war on each other. And yes, there are assholes on both sides. Someone brought the example of the mages, that burned the farmhouse and it's inhabitants to the ground - those mages are no better than Alrik or Karras or Meredith. Sonya Glad to see, I'm not the only one that obsessed with the game . Although I never sided with Meredith, she is just a bit too crazy for my taste and I happen to like Sol, the mage, you get the ingrdients for his shop for, who might die, if I help Meredith. In DAI, I did side with the templars sometimes, although I like the mage quest (Dorian all going Doctor Who on the inqui) better. But I find the representation of both groups in DAI better than in DA2. In DA2 you have basically mad Meredith on the templars side, who wants to kill all mages, even the children - it's as someone (noxluxe?) said, helping the mages is basically the heroes quest.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,992 Likes: 3,512
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 9, 2019 12:36:38 GMT
The "safety" provided by the Circles is an illusion. Meredith wasn't the first to demonstrate that. True. But complete safety provided anywhere is an illusion, and the circles have a comparatively good track record. The world is full of conflict and hardship, and pockets of safety aren't invincible and don't last forever even though people like to imagine they do. That doesn't mean that that safety isn't to be prized and valued while people have it, for what it is. Just because we take a full belly and nobody having a gun to your forehead for granted doesn't mean that the mages have any reason to. Almost nobody else in Thedas gets that luxury.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 9, 2019 12:56:31 GMT
As I wrote somewhere, in DAU there will always be some confrontation btw mages and templars. That we meet some assholes who burn the house, kill a family, abuse his/her power to rape someone - they are just asshole who happen to be mages or templars. They are not bad because they are templars or mages, they are bad because they are just bad people who happen to be mages or templars. Bad people are met everywhere. In DA2 we see that a templar in Ander's quest abuses his power (like to take Varric there who says "It's the Devine herlself. Came to tell you in person what a jackass you are"). If he abuses his power as a templar, it doesn't mean all templars are bad. Meredith methods are harsh - no question, even Cass tells it but also tells there are a lot of cases of BM so Meredith, even with her harsh methods, at least did something to protect people from BMs, no matter how power-hungry she was. If not for tempars in the city, can you imagine what could even happen considering how many BMs there are in and out of the city, including Orsino? And watching the final battle if siding with templars mages use demons, shades, abominaitions to fight, so there are indeed BMs in the tower as well. Even if there are good mages and children. Wynne and Viv tell you that mages need some place to learn magic, so Circles are the only place to do it safely in this DAU for now. Otherwise where can they teach and control themselves? FOR NOW there is no other option. If a person is a mage, that sucks, yeah, but it is the best solution to be in the circle. Bad things can happen in the circle, but you can be killled or raped as well out of the circle. Yes, mages lack some freedoms, they feel is it unjust. Maybe it is, but what do you propose? let them go? We see in DAI what can happpen. So for now Circles are needed to train mages. Templars are needed to watch nothing goes wrong (like Jowan e.g.). FOR now you can't control all towers and be sure that templars don't abuse their powers or mages don't do anything aweful (like Jowan - even Irving ad Gregoir knew about him). FOR NOW I see no alternative but to be as it is, as I have just written. P.S. there are problemes everywhere, Dalish clans could become bandits, or remember city origin? (my favorite just the worst DAorigin IMO). So not only mages suffer, but as Cassandra in DAI said in Cullen quest "mages like to complain, not like templars." Mages will always complain, there will always be something wrong how you treat them (no freedom, small rooms or whatever - in DAI take them in and listen). As I wrote - it sucks to be a mage in DAU but we see as well good examples like Wynne, Irving, Viv (who met bad templats as well, but in her case money helped). As a conslusion: you can't now solve mages-templars probleme. There is nothing you can do to make everyone happy. FOR NOW the best solution, even if there are proplemes, are Circles. No, the Circle in this form, not a solution. Neither for now, nor for ever. The Circle is dangerous, more harm than benefit. That we saw here. Jowan is a good guy. Blood mage? Why wouldn't? It's just a magic. But if you let him free, he proves, he doesn't want to abuse his power. He helps to the refugees. And his dream just become a farmer. Irving isn't a good examlple: he forces his Liebling apprentice to betray his friend, and sacrifices at the end, even if the apprentice was loyal to him. Also, he worked with Uldred to bait the apprentices. He admired Uldred's ability of manipulation. And I don't even really hate Irving: he just a tired, opportunist mediocre mage, who has gut to accept this position. Orsino is far better First Enchanter in a very shit circumstances, under a madwoman (yes, she was before as well), who didn't even thought, a First Enchanter is necessary, and Orsino was the only who accepted that "position" to protect his people, to try to prove to them, it worth to live, instead to kill themself in despair (yes, Anders was right here, the suicide was the first cause of death in the Circle, especially in Kirkwall). Wynne has Stockholm syndrome, that's clear. But in the Asunder, she attacks the White Spire (the real Cole's Circle, and Wynne's son's), and destroys the phylactery chamber. That's furious Wynne is very impressive, much better than that "wise gramma". Vivienne just speaks nonsenses, not worth a word. You can't imagine where they able to learn anywhere than prisons? Prison is the least suitable place to teach children safe. Especially those towers. Most of them absolutely bad place to gather mages: the Veil is very weak around them, because of their past, and later, because of the concentrated magic and despair. And the worst place was in this view the Gallows. Look: my first origin, when the game released, was a Circle Mage. I found that place awful, and felt sorry for Wynne and Irving, and found Jowan and Anders the most healthy Circle Mages – and my view didn't change. Oh, yes, so tear jerking that "mages like to complain, not like the templars". Because the Templars in charge. By the way, the whole Inquisition about, how they suffer, and how good guys they are. Among them there are good and bad guys, they're people, yes. They're just as victims as aggressors, the chantry's lyrium leash bond them. Then free them! The order is garbage. Just see Meredith – the system killed her sister, and her soul. Yes, many templars joined the Order because wanted to protect people, and because of the propaganda misled them (Cullen, Samson etc). Some of them was able to keep their spine, but Alrik and Meredith was not some exception. Those are the icon of the Templars – because the order kept them in duty – the Chantry supported them. (Yes, in this case, it's support, not some simple mistake.) Also, the Chantry "recruited" Templars from the Chantry-orphanages – children, who didn't have chance to choose. Alistair for example, how hated to be a templar, he saw Duncan (the Taint!) as his saviour! And probably the mages' non-mage children. Against their parents... and they didn't even know about it, neither their parents. Plus: the lyrium makes them dangerous. Unpredictable. About that the Circle protect the mages, not just their prison: False justify for an unjust system, just like Dorian's excuse to slavery... Let's lock up the innocents to protect them from the raging linch mob? No. Hunt down the linch mob, and lock to the prison tem. That's the real solution. The whole system is garbage: cruel to everyone, and also dangerous.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Dec 9, 2019 12:56:34 GMT
Glad to see, I'm not the only one that obsessed with the game Yep, I know DA2 is the least favorite game amoung DAT but it is my favotire. In DAI doesn't matter whom you side with as both groups are morons (selling to Tevinter? Red Templars and templars who saw something was wrong but did nothing?). But it is interesting that taking in templars you get points, but getting mages gives you nothing. That's strange. And freedom for mages? I don't think they even know how that freedom will turn out for them. Simple people have simple fears as people wrote here. They will just kill mage just because they are mages + some stories how dangerous mages can be. So life with feedom could become more difficult for them. I like the idea of some schools but abominations are inevitable. Who will deal with them? If mages themselves - that's good. But Knowing Kirkwall circle mages can just cover it up, support BM, that school can become corrupted. Then what? So give mages freedom and risk? I don't know. So for me Circkes are the best solution anyway no matter how hard mages complain about freedoms they know nothing about. I don't see another option for now.
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Dec 9, 2019 13:11:56 GMT
The whole system is garbage: cruel to everyone, and also dangerous actually that's what I wanted and trying to say. You can't make everyone happy. The Chantry, The Templars, The mages, The Circles - they all have flaws, many flaws. But as I wrote many times, I don't see how else a mage can learn magic as untrained mage is very dangerous (remember Redcliffe quest from DAO? Stupide Isolde hid Connor was a mage and the result - many dead bodies and possessed child). For now in the game Circles are the only option. Or maybe I missed it what else do you propose?
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