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Post by pavellaning on Jun 20, 2018 1:22:04 GMT
Because I surely do. Especially as a Mage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 8:30:24 GMT
my canon didn't because my canon is a snarky, no responsibility person (not because I dislike merdith, it just didn't suit his character to abandon his morals of saving people and being a genuinely good person with a good sense of morals on his chest).
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 22, 2018 18:01:40 GMT
No, and I also would not be friends IRL with anyone who did.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 26, 2018 2:55:35 GMT
I only have two Hawkes who feel "right", and no matter how many times I replay DA2, I pretty much always fall back on one or the other. Of them, yes, one is definitely a Meredith-side-r-with-er, at least as far as the initial choice is presented. It was really more of a "had about up to here with your shit, Meredith, but clearly since you can't lead worth a darn, I'll take charge and we'll do this, my way" sort of situation in practice. There was still a difference in degree, since Meredith wanted to kill the patient and Hawke wanted to excise the cancer, but after all the bad magic mojo that went down in Act 3, especially, Hawke wasn't about to cover her ears and hum passively and ignore the people who had actually been wrecking the city.
The other was a Mage himself whose response was "Uh, yeah, how about no?", though. I did consider once, a sort of power-grabbing Mage Hawke who would get engaged to Sebastian and then side with Meredith for the political clout, but never really got very far with her.
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Post by obbie1984 on Jun 27, 2018 5:55:55 GMT
I do. Because outside of one or two mages, every mage in Kirkwall you run across is a doucebag or a future douchebag.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 27, 2018 11:36:05 GMT
I do. Because outside of one or two mages, every mage in Kirkwall you run across is a doucebag or a future douchebag. What about Meredith and her "sane" Templars, who rape the mages, and made them randomly Tranquil just for keeping the others in fear? Meredith's and her gang are criminals – with power over the whole city. This is clear from the beginning. To support them means to support the crime.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jun 27, 2018 16:41:43 GMT
I enjoy Meredith as a character, but she is a dangerous lunatic.
Her response to Anders blowing up the chantry is to decide to murder a group of people he isn't even part of. Hell, Meredith doesn't even punish Anders - she leaves him to Hawke.
Really, I think invoking the Rite of Annulment puts her beyond the pale in itself as it's a form of collective punishment.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a Hawke who's supported the Templars right through the game to side with the mages at the end, as Meredith is so completely off the rails. It's not some sort of "uprising" as Cullen claims in Inquisition - the mages are fighting in self-defence.
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Post by obbie1984 on Jun 27, 2018 21:40:32 GMT
I do. Because outside of one or two mages, every mage in Kirkwall you run across is a doucebag or a future douchebag. What about Meredith and her "sane" Templars, who rape the mages, and made them randomly Tranquil just for keeping the others in fear? Meredith's and her gang are criminals – with power over the whole city. This is clear from the beginning. To support them means to support the crime. Its been a while since I played DA2. But yes there were bad templars, but I always felt the mages are worse and they almost always abused their power. Meredith might have been crazy, but she confesses her sister turned into an abomination and she knows no other way to cull mages, and that it breaks her heart to do it. (I believe her by the way). I felt more for her than someone like Anders or Grace. Besides, there were several good templars like Thrask. Even Cullen changes his tune about Meredith. And in one quest in act 3, you can convince Meredith to keep that virgin mage alive which means she can at least be reasonable as well. I think if it weren't for the idol, Meredith wouldn't have gone as mad as she did. Both sides have their rotten apples, but I hated Templars less.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 27, 2018 22:31:28 GMT
What about Meredith and her "sane" Templars, who rape the mages, and made them randomly Tranquil just for keeping the others in fear? Meredith's and her gang are criminals – with power over the whole city. This is clear from the beginning. To support them means to support the crime. Its been a while since I played DA2. But yes there were bad templars, but I always felt the mages are worse and they almost always abused their power. Meredith might have been crazy, but she confesses her sister turned into an abomination and she knows no other way to cull mages, and that it breaks her heart to do it. (I believe her by the way). I felt more for her than someone like Anders or Grace. Besides, there were several good templars like Thrask. Even Cullen changes his tune about Meredith. And in one quest in act 3, you can convince Meredith to keep that virgin mage alive which means she can at least be reasonable as well.
I think if it weren't for the idol, Meredith wouldn't have gone as mad as she did. Both sides have their rotten apples, but I hated Templars less. Meredith was not really intact since her sister became an abomination, sadly – she and her sister also victims of the system. So: she was mad even without the red lyrium – the red lyrium was the consequence of her madness, not the cause of her madness. She wanted more power over the mages. So: she took that "evil" energy because she thought, she will be able to handle it – and at the finish, she became "abomination", just as her feared blood mages... beautiful fate! But her PTSD not justifies she Tranquilized Harrowed mages randomly and for little things (for example a letter...) This isn't acceptable. So: she was criminal from the beginning, and this is known since when Hawke arrived Kirkwall and when Hawke met Karl in the Chantry. Anders also had some information about Meredith's method – and no matter people hate him or not, everything proved, what he said. When Hawke kills Otto Alric, can hear at the Gallows, that NOTHING changed: rapes and abuses often happen just as before. So: who abuses their power? Let's see the mages: Tarohne's mad cult with the Exotic Wonder – they were criminals, like many people in Kirkwall, lyrium dealers, slave hunters, smugglers, and for example Petrice and Varnell, Meredith, Alric and Karras The Starkhaven apostates were okay, except Decimus, who attacked Hawke – it was foolish, but he had a reason (he was cornered in this cave). Grece was a vengeful idiot, yes. Quentin was a serial killer – just as Kelder, who was not even a mage, just a paedophile pervert (true, he just killed and tortured unknown elven children, not Hawke's mother... By the way, Meredith was who stopped the investigation and punished ser Emeric, the Templar, who wanted to continue the investigation. Huon became crazy inside the Circle. Evelina didn't abuse her power, he chose rather the beggar life for the orphans – after, that she asked for help in the Chantry, but they refused her and called the Templars. We can say, she was weak, but she was desperate – and didn't "abuse her power". But these aren't the "mages" – while Meredith is the "Templars", because she's the Knight Commander, the Templars' superior, with real power (not like Orsino, who just a senior prisoner), and Meredith's the most powerful person in Kirkwall after Elthina. If we say, the "mages" are criminals, because Quentin killed Hawke's mother, we can call Kirkwall's inhabitants criminal – because of we met with Kelder (the Magistrate's son), lyrium dealers, slave-hunters and murderers etc. Thrask rebelled against her, and many of the Templars. Meredith was mad enough that Thrask afraid her daughter to bring him in the Circle... and this also was BEFORE the red lyrium. And we can's say "both sides have rotten apples", because there not "both" equal sides. There's the corrupted Templar Order with a mad, criminal Knight Commander – and innocently imprisoned people under their whim.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 2:10:14 GMT
No, and I also would not be friends IRL with anyone who did. That's nice, I've sided with Meredith. I think i'll do it again now... thank you.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 28, 2018 4:07:18 GMT
No, and I also would not be friends IRL with anyone who did. That's nice, I've sided with Meredith. I think i'll do it again now... thank you. No loss. I wouldn't be your friend anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 5:21:18 GMT
That's nice, I've sided with Meredith. I think i'll do it again now... thank you. No loss. I wouldn't be your friend anyway. It says a lot about the contents of your character if you don't get along with someone because they have differing opinions on the matter. I personally do not hold anything against you for supporting Orisino, the man that literally betrays you at the very end despite supporting him. Or the fact he let your mum be killed and turned into an abomination by turning her into a zombified version of his wife. Oh yes, Orisino knew about him and even learned how to turn into a Harvester because of him. Or the fact the mages constantly do things against you in game (like kidnapping your sister/lover), or the rapid blood mages on the streets of Kirkwall whom attack you on sight or the fact the mages aren't trustworthy in the slightest and do everything in their power to prove this too you. Yes Meredith has her flaws, but so does Orisino too.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 28, 2018 8:04:42 GMT
No loss. I wouldn't be your friend anyway. It says a lot about the contents of your character if you don't get along with someone because they have differing opinions on the matter. I personally do not hold anything against you for supporting Orisino, the man that literally betrays you at the very end despite supporting him. Or the fact he let your mum be killed and turned into an abomination by turning her into a zombified version of his wife. Oh yes, Orisino knew about him and even learned how to turn into a Harvester because of him. Or the fact the mages constantly do things against you in game (like kidnapping your sister/lover), or the rapid blood mages on the streets of Kirkwall whom attack you on sight or the fact the mages aren't trustworthy in the slightest and do everything in their power to prove this too you. Yes Meredith has her flaws, but so does Orisino too. I don't care for Orsino, and I don't see defending the mages as "supporting" him, just like siding with the Templars doesn't automatically mean someone supports all of Meredith's actions. The game also forces me into conflict with Templars, Elves, Dwarves, Qunari and plain old ordinary humans. To use your logic, none of these groups are "trustworthy in the slightest", and I ought to wipe them all out. Regardless of what other mages have done or might do to my character, I take the choice that I consider to be morally right in that moment, and that is to defend people from being slaughtered for a crime that they did not commit and that I don't disagree with anyway. When I play Dragon Age, or any game that offers those sorts of moral choices, I go with the option that most aligns with my moral ideals, because I always play an idealised version of myself. I consider my morals to be fairly fundamental to who I am, so yeah, if someone disagree with me about morality, we're probably not going to be friends.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 8:20:21 GMT
It says a lot about the contents of your character if you don't get along with someone because they have differing opinions on the matter. I personally do not hold anything against you for supporting Orisino, the man that literally betrays you at the very end despite supporting him. Or the fact he let your mum be killed and turned into an abomination by turning her into a zombified version of his wife. Oh yes, Orisino knew about him and even learned how to turn into a Harvester because of him. Or the fact the mages constantly do things against you in game (like kidnapping your sister/lover), or the rapid blood mages on the streets of Kirkwall whom attack you on sight or the fact the mages aren't trustworthy in the slightest and do everything in their power to prove this too you. Yes Meredith has her flaws, but so does Orisino too. I don't care for Orsino, and I don't see defending the mages as "supporting" him, just like siding with the Templars doesn't automatically mean someone supports all of Meredith's actions. The game also forces me into conflict with Templars, Elves, Dwarves, Qunari and plain old ordinary humans. To use your logic, none of these groups are "trustworthy in the slightest", and I ought to wipe them all out. Regardless of what other mages have done or might do to my character, I take the choice that I consider to be morally right in that moment, and that is to defend people from being slaughtered for a crime that they did not commit and that I don't disagree with anyway.
When I play Dragon Age, or any game that offers those sorts of moral choices, I go with the option that most aligns with my moral ideals, because I always play an idealised version of myself . I consider my morals to be fairly fundamental to who I am, so yeah, if someone disagree with me about morality, we're probably not going to be friends.Video games do not decide someone's morals because they might just playing the game for fun. Think about that before turning another's friendship down just because you think they play the game the same way you do.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 28, 2018 8:46:41 GMT
I don't care for Orsino, and I don't see defending the mages as "supporting" him, just like siding with the Templars doesn't automatically mean someone supports all of Meredith's actions. The game also forces me into conflict with Templars, Elves, Dwarves, Qunari and plain old ordinary humans. To use your logic, none of these groups are "trustworthy in the slightest", and I ought to wipe them all out. Regardless of what other mages have done or might do to my character, I take the choice that I consider to be morally right in that moment, and that is to defend people from being slaughtered for a crime that they did not commit and that I don't disagree with anyway.
When I play Dragon Age, or any game that offers those sorts of moral choices, I go with the option that most aligns with my moral ideals, because I always play an idealised version of myself . I consider my morals to be fairly fundamental to who I am, so yeah, if someone disagree with me about morality, we're probably not going to be friends.Video games do not decide someone's morals because they might just playing the game for fun. Think about that before turning another's friendship down just because you think they play the game the same way you do. You seem pretty bothered by this. Were you hoping to become my friend? If it helps, I didn't say that because you side with Meredith. I just get the sense from what you've posted elsewhere that we would not get along.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 8:49:18 GMT
Video games do not decide someone's morals because they might just playing the game for fun. Think about that before turning another's friendship down just because you think they play the game the same way you do. You seem pretty bothered by this. Were you hoping to become my friend? Nope because I wouldn't want to be friends with someone whom takes a video game so literally that they assume everyone plays the game the same way they do. Ok end of discussion because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jun 28, 2018 8:55:26 GMT
Although most of the time I side with the Mages and it's my preference, I have made some good natured and morally conflicted characters that have sided with Meredith. It all depends on the type of character I'm role playing at the time and there are arguments that can be made in favor of both sides.
EDIT: oops I obviously didn't read that the thread title said always side with Meredith..oh well
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Post by Catilina on Jun 28, 2018 11:33:44 GMT
It says a lot about the contents of your character if you don't get along with someone because they have differing opinions on the matter. I personally do not hold anything against you for supporting Orisino, the man that literally betrays you at the very end despite supporting him. Or the fact he let your mum be killed and turned into an abomination by turning her into a zombified version of his wife. Oh yes, Orisino knew about him and even learned how to turn into a Harvester because of him. Or the fact the mages constantly do things against you in game (like kidnapping your sister/lover), or the rapid blood mages on the streets of Kirkwall whom attack you on sight or the fact the mages aren't trustworthy in the slightest and do everything in their power to prove this too you. Yes Meredith has her flaws, but so does Orisino too.
Flaws? She's a mad criminal tyrant. And no: Orsino's not her opponent. They're not equal. You can hate Orsino, he still just a senior prisoner, nothing more. But Meredith is the most powerful person right after Elthina – with an army. Hawke can despise Orsino, and still protect his/her people (and Bethany!), who are innocents (they're still not Grace and Quentin – if they're Quentin, then Kirkwall's inhabitants are all Kelder...) They just fight against Meredith's mad Templars who want to massacre them like cattle at the slaughterhouse – without cause, driven with mere hatred and fear. Not mentioned, we don't know anything, how much Orsino knew about Quentin's experiments. I suppose he didn't know about the zombie-wife.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 28, 2018 15:54:39 GMT
How old do you guys think Meredith is?
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Post by Catilina on Jun 28, 2018 17:55:41 GMT
How old do you guys think Meredith is? She was Knight-Captain at 9:14, and at 9:21 Grand Cleric Elthina promoted her to Knight Commander. So: ~45, at the end, I suppose, if she was ~20, when became Knight-Captain. But according to me, this is too young.
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Post by davesin on Jun 28, 2018 18:33:56 GMT
How old do you guys think Meredith is? She was Knight-Captain at 9:14, and at 9:21 Grand Cleric Elthina promoted her to Knight Commander. So: ~45, at the end, I suppose, if she was ~20, when became Knight-Captain. But according to me, this is too young. Too young to get Knight-Commander rank or do you think she looks older? If former, well, for comparison Lambert van Reeves became Lord Seeker when he was 45 or so. That's enough time to get enough experience, influence and friends on higher places in order to get promotion. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if 40+ was already way above average age in Thedas. If latter, well... does it mean we can take Meredith's and Wynne's boobs as equal opponents?
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Post by Catilina on Jun 28, 2018 18:45:49 GMT
She was Knight-Captain at 9:14, and at 9:21 Grand Cleric Elthina promoted her to Knight Commander. So: ~45, at the end, I suppose, if she was ~20, when became Knight-Captain. But according to me, this is too young. Too young to get Knight-Commander rank or do you think she looks older? If former, well, for comparison Lambert van Reeves became Lord Seeker when he was 45 or so. That's enough time to get enough experience, influence and friends on higher places in order to get promotion. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if 40+ was already way above average age in Thedas. If latter, well... does it mean we can take Meredith's and Wynne's boobs as equal opponents? I did not want seems to be malicious, so: probably she closer to 50-55... But don't forget: Cullen became Knight-Captan in his early 20s, and Knight-Commander at 26. True, it was not a typical situation. I not really daydreamed about her boobs... true, she's impressive as "old" woman...
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Post by davesin on Jun 28, 2018 19:11:21 GMT
But don't forget: Cullen became Knight-Captan in his early 20s, and Knight-Commander at 26. True, it was not a typical situation. I not really daydreamed about her boobs... true, she's impressive as "old" woman... True, you can't promote older members of the Order if they get themselves killed in recent Annulation incident. Meredith appreciates your compliment.
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Post by obbie1984 on Jun 28, 2018 21:50:18 GMT
CatilinaAs I said, its been a long time since I played DA2 completely. I am currently playing DAO as a dwarf and plan to play DA2 as a default female Hawke as a sword/shield character. I have beaten DA2 a few times and I just remember finding it hard to feel sorry for the mages in each subsequent playthrough. Perhaps with your perspective, my opinion might change. It might not. But I do recall that there was quest with Anders where one of the sadistic templars wanted to tranquil all mages or something and the Grand Cleric and Meredith both rejected his idea. Also, Orsino comes off as such a nice and sensible guy, but when I found out he had dealings with the guy that killed Hawke's mom, that just further made me hate mages in DA2. I still see Meredith more as someone who is abusing her role as Knight Commander and not really a criminal. Many of the templars under her might well be criminals. But as I said, I will play DA2 soon with an open mind and see if I can see your side in this.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 28, 2018 22:36:02 GMT
Catilina As I said, its been a long time since I played DA2 completely. I am currently playing DAO as a dwarf and plan to play DA2 as a default female Hawke as a sword/shield character. I have beaten DA2 a few times and I just remember finding it hard to feel sorry for the mages in each subsequent playthrough. Perhaps with your perspective, my opinion might change. It might not. But I do recall that there was quest with Anders where one of the sadistic templars wanted to tranquil all mages or something and the Grand Cleric and Meredith both rejected his idea. Also, Orsino comes off as such a nice and sensible guy, but when I found out he had dealings with the guy that killed Hawke's mom, that just further made me hate mages in DA2. I still see Meredith more as someone who is abusing her role as Knight Commander and not really a criminal. Many of the templars under her might well be criminals. But as I said, I will play DA2 soon with an open mind and see if I can see your side in this. It's fair. I know is easy to see the Templars as some knights (and some of them are knights really). Meredith's a simple criminal, according to the Chantry's law (her own law, for which he swore!). She Tranquilized people randomly – and she allowed her Templars to be criminal. What she did, is a serious crime. And it was even before the red lyrium. True, perhaps I'm biased: I see criminal every politician who abuses his/her power. Much more than a simple thug or a mad serial killer. A politician with army always more dangerous than a simple murderer, so, in my eyes, to support that criminal, simply wrong. Orsino knew Quentin, he was a friend of him once. (Quentin were in the Starkhaven Circle – it's vague, he escaped, or had some special permit, and how he have a wife, and why he lost his mind...) Of course, he didn't betray him – and he sends some books to him. He knew Quentin studies forbidden knowledge – and knew about some of his discovery and theory. But I believe, what he said: it was too late when he realized Quentin's mental state – I suppose this was the moment when Quentin wrote about the Harvester... – but the Harvester, we know, NOT Quentin's discovery. Perhaps, he had some new theory about it... But I doubt Orsino knew Quentin's wife-project. I suppose, when Orsino figured, what happened with Quentin, panicked. Not for himself. We saw in Qunari war, he's brave. He didn't fear to face dozens of qunari alone. He feared Meredith's random revenge on the whole Circle. He committed a big mistake – but he didn't want the others to suffer. Orsino's goal, when accepted the title was to prevent the suicides after his friend (love?) ignited herself. Nobody wanted this position under Meredith. He took this to protect the others. He's not a bad person. Absolutely OOCthat he would be able to help willingly to a serial killer. I know, this is an unpopular opinion – but I don't think, he knew about what Quentin exactly do. Nobody knew about a serial killer, only Emeric believed his existence, but Meredith and even Aveline thought, he's just an old idiot. Why would Orsino know it? And The others inside the Circle isn't Orsino: there are hundreds of mages, children among them. An annulment would kill every. No one of them knew Quentin. I don't have Hawke who was able to send anyone to Meredith's Circle (except the Exotic Wonder), after Karl's case. I found Ferelden's Circle terrible, but this is a madness! I know, Grace will be a traitor, but Hawke doesn't know that at the moment... And Ella? (I always saved her) Ella was abused by Templars, I don't think it's right decision to send her back to this awful place... (Not mentioned, she saw Anders' secret... I don't think if Hawke wants to keep Anders would be a good choice from RP view...) Once I sided with Templar Carver. This is my tragic end... this Hawke didn't want to face with his brother but betrayed his own people and his friend – the Viscount title as 30 pieces of silver. Viscount achievement's done – so: never more!
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