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Post by Catilina on Jul 15, 2018 16:33:40 GMT
People can talk about blood magic all day long (and I'm all for it, by the way), but what Meredith did had nothing to do with blood magic. The attack on the chantry was carried out by one man, who hated blood magic as much as she did - Meredith had him at her mercy and she didn't care, all she could think of was using his actions as a pretext to kill innocent mages. To be fair, at least Meredith was under the influence of the idol. Cullen, Carver and the rest had no such excuse for going along with her massacre (I wonder how many mages they killed before they met Hawke). It's always bothered me, even if I see, thats a good point to the drama...
Carver's letter:
Dear ...(Hawke's name), How are you? I hope you and Mother are doing well. Things are good here. I've found my place among the templars. It's nice to have purpose, to be part of something bigger than myself... and you! All right, all right, I'll stop being a pain in the ass. It's not a perfect job, though. I don't really like what we do to mages, but do we have a choice? It keeps everyone safe, and it's better than the alternative. Many mages understand that we're trying to help, even if our methods could use improvement. Unfortunately, there are extreme elements within the Order. Some argue for a permanent solution and have ideas I hope never take root. Makes me glad Bethany never had to live in a place like this. I'll wrap this up. Duty calls. Send my love to Mother. Your brother,
Carver
But if he joins to the Grey Warden, he really angry to Hawke, if supports the Templars.
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boxofscreaming
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 15, 2018 17:13:02 GMT
People can talk about blood magic all day long (and I'm all for it, by the way), but what Meredith did had nothing to do with blood magic. The attack on the chantry was carried out by one man, who hated blood magic as much as she did - Meredith had him at her mercy and she didn't care, all she could think of was using his actions as a pretext to kill innocent mages. To be fair, at least Meredith was under the influence of the idol. Cullen, Carver and the rest had no such excuse for going along with her massacre (I wonder how many mages they killed before they met Hawke). It's always bothered me, even if I see, thats a good point to the drama...
Carver's letter:
Dear ...(Hawke's name), How are you? I hope you and Mother are doing well. Things are good here. I've found my place among the templars. It's nice to have purpose, to be part of something bigger than myself... and you! All right, all right, I'll stop being a pain in the ass. It's not a perfect job, though. I don't really like what we do to mages, but do we have a choice? It keeps everyone safe, and it's better than the alternative. Many mages understand that we're trying to help, even if our methods could use improvement. Unfortunately, there are extreme elements within the Order. Some argue for a permanent solution and have ideas I hope never take root. Makes me glad Bethany never had to live in a place like this. I'll wrap this up. Duty calls. Send my love to Mother. Your brother,
Carver
But if he joins to the Grey Warden, he really angry to Hawke, if supports the Templars. Yeah - Carver as a Templar makes for great drama, but I'm happier with him as a Grey Warden.
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Post by warden on Jul 16, 2018 20:13:43 GMT
Look at this, you just can't say no to this.
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Post by davesin on Jul 19, 2018 7:28:19 GMT
warden This is what will happen if Templars will ever face Qunari. Tevinter can hold them off, but Templars can force them to submit!
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Post by Quickpaw on Aug 10, 2019 1:48:03 GMT
The "rampant blood mages" has a few logical explanations, none of which Meridith was actually doing anything to prevent (it's debatable whether this was intentional or not) First is the simple fact that we are interested parties who would in their activities encounter more such individuals naturally, either because we sought them out or vice versa. Hawke (especially as a mage) is particularly sensitive to this issue, as they have spent their entire life paying for the "sin" of magic either personally or proximally, fleeing both the abusive Circle jurisdiction and blood mages/malificar wanting to ensnare them. Second is the out-of-game explanation of "rule of cool." I mean hell, we mow down abominations, demons, and malificar by the dozen without any special training whatsoever, though this could be attributed to Varric's embellishments. In-lore a single. One. of those creatures can take down a whole platoon of experienced and powerful Templars (which does beg the question of their necessity in the first place), yet to us the player these unholy nightmares are little more than nuisances. Gameplay-Story segregation. Third is Meridith's INCREDIBLY abusive practices feeding into her self-fulfilling prophesy. Cracking down on innocent mages that she can catch doesn't actually solve the problem of malificar OUTSIDE her ability to control, and in doing so actually causes far more mages-who would otherwise be faithful and obedient adherents-to go crazy out of desperation than would EVER be the case with gentler tactics. The cycle begins with Meridith, whether through a misguided crusade to protect or (more likely) a malevolent and malicious tactic to maintain her own political power. And lastly: KIRKWALL IS HIGHLY DANGEROUS IN A METAPHYSICAL SENSE. Quite possibly the most dangerous place for mages to be imprisoned. As the Band of Three discovered, the entire city is an enormous Tevinter blood sigil that was built to enable the Magisters Sidreal- Corypheus, the Architect, and their fellows- to physically breach the Fade to reach the Black City. Mages who are imprisoned in the Gallows have to deal with this constant mental assault from the aftereffects of that ritual, adding yet ANOTHER stresser to an already fucked up system of political scapegoating. In conclusion: even before the effects of the Red Lyrium idol, there is zero. ZERO. reason to trust anything Meridith says or does. It is clear even in Act 1 that she naturally suffers the same power-madness that afflicted Loghain, likely exacerbated by the Templars' gradual psychopathy from lyrium addiction (oh yeah, about that ) With the Red Lyrium: Stark Raving Mad.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 11, 2019 2:24:11 GMT
What about Meredith and her "sane" Templars, who rape the mages, and made them randomly Tranquil just for keeping the others in fear? Meredith's and her gang are criminals – with power over the whole city. This is clear from the beginning. To support them means to support the crime. Its been a while since I played DA2. But yes there were bad templars, but I always felt the mages are worse and they almost always abused their power. Meredith might have been crazy, but she confesses her sister turned into an abomination and she knows no other way to cull mages, and that it breaks her heart to do it. (I believe her by the way). I felt more for her than someone like Anders or Grace. Besides, there were several good templars like Thrask. Even Cullen changes his tune about Meredith. And in one quest in act 3, you can convince Meredith to keep that virgin mage alive which means she can at least be reasonable as well. I think if it weren't for the idol, Meredith wouldn't have gone as mad as she did. Both sides have their rotten apples, but I hated Templars less. yeah both sides had good and bad points fo rwhat was going on even if Meredith does go to far at the end. As fo ralways siding with Meredit hno I don' talways side with her some of my Hawkes do some don't it just depends on the kind of character I'm RP'ing .But I think it was definitely an interesting choice story wise especially in trems of how it leads in to the start of Inquisition I think.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 12, 2019 17:56:46 GMT
I think i had one game in which i did not side with meredith. Her side was the most logical and best way to handle the problem and it was 100% born out in what happened in the end. Anders did the deed and Orsino was a fraud blood mage in waiting all along. Too bad little miss britches mother superior did not give Meredith the backing she deserved or the bad mages would have been weeded out thus saving hundreds if not thousands of mage lives in the end. Moron Anders was happy to have the blood of thousands of mages on his hands because as a mage he was not allowed to go to the mall when he wanted. I only wish Meredith could have gutted Anders personally before she went lyrium mad. Clearly a mad tyrant with army is the safest solution ever. She had both the drive and the means to get the job done
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Post by fylimar on Aug 12, 2019 18:09:38 GMT
That always bothered me: Meredith was right there, when Anders blew up the church, he confessed afterwards and waited for his punishment. Yet Meredith did - nothing. She turned around, accused Orsino as if Anders wasn't even there ... what the hell? I mean, even if she wanted to pin Anders deed on Orsino and the circle mages too, she could have dealt with the one standing there confessing first and then accuse Orsino of helping. That always seemed highly illogical to me (to quote a favorite Vulcan)
But no, none of my Hawkes ever sided with Meredith, she is just too batshit crazy. And to be honest, after reading the Band of Three codexes, my solution would not be to lock the mages up, but to evacuate this sorry excuse of a city and start somewhere new, where the veil isn't that frail. Has no one ever asked, why there are so many serial killers, murderous gangs, blood mages and crazy templars (did I forget something? Short tempered Qunari maybe...)in Kirkwall?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 12, 2019 18:56:23 GMT
That always bothered me: Meredith was right there, when Anders blew up the church, he confessed afterwards and waited for his punishment. Yet Meredith did - nothing. She turned around, accused Orsino as if Anders wasn't even there ... what the hell? I mean, even if she wanted to pin Anders deed on Orsino and the circle mages too, she could have dealt with the one standing there confessing first and then accuse Orsino of helping. That always seemed highly illogical to me (to quote a favorite Vulcan) But no, none of my Hawkes ever sided with Meredith, she is just too batshit crazy. And to be honest, after reading the Band of Three codexes, my solution would not be to lock the mages up, but to evacuate this sorry excuse of a city and start somewhere new, where the veil isn't that frail. Has no one ever asked, why there are so many serial killers, murderous gangs, blood mages and crazy templars (did I forget something? Short tempered Qunari maybe...)in Kirkwall? That's clear: he wanted to destroy the mages, she never really interested toward the truth and right things, even before the red lyrium – while she was not that mad. Meredith still wanted to kill every mages, whatever was Kirkwall's past, and no matters, how thin is the Veil here. In the possession of this knowledge, the mages still the good choice: much safer, if they go out of Kirkwall – and the mages don't deserved to die, just because of the Chantry chose a bad place to their prison.
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Post by Quickpaw on Aug 12, 2019 20:23:18 GMT
Aug 12, 2019 12:56:46 GMT -5 Iddy said: She had both the drive and the means to get the job done "Tell me, son. How many of us will you kill to keep us 'safe?'"
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 13, 2019 7:05:51 GMT
That always bothered me: Meredith was right there, when Anders blew up the church, he confessed afterwards and waited for his punishment. Yet Meredith did - nothing. She turned around, accused Orsino as if Anders wasn't even there ... what the hell? I mean, even if she wanted to pin Anders deed on Orsino and the circle mages too, she could have dealt with the one standing there confessing first and then accuse Orsino of helping. That always seemed highly illogical to me (to quote a favorite Vulcan) Poor writing. One of the pillars of BioWare's storytelling seems to be that any faction the current protagonist is not a member of can and will act like morons at any given time. Grey Wardens were so cool in Origins, and look what a joke they became in Inquisition. Mages and Templars both make stupid decisions throughout the franchise. Meanwhile in Mass Effect, the Alliance was the place to be in the first game while Cerberus were murderous side-quest space nazis. Mass Effect 2 rolls around and the Alliance twiddles their thumbs while Cerberus get things done, only for the Alliance to wake up again in Mass Effect 3 while Cerberus turn full reaper-bots. BioWare's writing is light entertainment and often doesn't hold up to logic or reason. But no, none of my Hawkes ever sided with Meredith, she is just too batshit crazy. And to be honest, after reading the Band of Three codexes, my solution would not be to lock the mages up, but to evacuate this sorry excuse of a city and start somewhere new, where the veil isn't that frail. Has no one ever asked, why there are so many serial killers, murderous gangs, blood mages and crazy templars (did I forget something? Short tempered Qunari maybe...)in Kirkwall? Poor gameplay design. They needed a bunch of enemies to keep players busy with all the wave-based combat that infested the game, whether it made sense in a given situation or not. Remember how even the three hucksters that sell the fake ashes of Andraste lead to a big fight against several waves of outlaws jumping from the rooftops? That should have been a short conversation with a few options to resolve the matter, but instead it inexplicably led to a scene of wholesale slaughter in a side street. Also I vaguely remember a few posts by David Gaider somewhere stating that the Band of Three codexes were a late addition to Dragon Age 2 after they realized that almost all the mage characters they put into the game were dangerous nutters. They had kinda forgotten to add some sane mages, and this was the easiest "fix" or explanation they could think of. It should probably not be over-analyzed... in fact I suspect that some people in this thread and similar ones across the forum have put more reasonable thought into these story aspects that BioWare's writers themselves.
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Post by melbella on Aug 14, 2019 1:10:58 GMT
I suspect that some people in this thread and similar ones across the forum have put more reasonable thought into these story aspects that BioWare's writers themselves. Unsurprising given we've had years to do so, whereas they had what, 18 months? to get the game out.
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Post by DragonEffect on Sept 7, 2019 21:56:46 GMT
I never side with Meredith, but I DO side with the templars in some gameplays.
Let's not forget that, in Act 3, templars and mages band together to end Meredith's reign of tyranny. They're led by Thrask, who helped the mages from Starkhaven escape the Gallows. His comments on the Kirkwall Circle hint to the player that the place had effectively become a prison.
And to our surprise, in Act 3, Cullen also comments several times how he questions himself whether serving Meredith still means serving the Templar Order. In his words, "It may be they are no longer one and the same." He also adds he doesn't need to know where the rumors of Meredith's descent to madness come from and compares her to Uldred to a certain extent. (And indeed, Meredith was possessed by some kind of unknown magic originated from the red lyrium, mined from the idol. No wonder she went insane like Bartrand)
Another important detail is how Kirkwall is resting on top of an underground place where the magisters endeavoured to weaken the Veil and facilitate the summoning of demons. Read the clues in the Enigma of Kirkwall. Plus, you can also summon an ancient evil (Hybris) using the Awiergan Scrolls. Kirkwall is by default a doomed city, where demons find easy passage into the world of the living. No wonder the number of blood mages Hawke comes across is staggering. Add to that a place like the Gallows where mages live incarcerated and you have a recipe for disaster.
Let's not also forget Seneschal Bran tells Hawke that anyone willing to petition for the role of viscount MUST have the templars support. Therefore, siding with Meredith, even though unfair to the mages, ensures Hawke can petition for viscount in the future and have a chance to end Meredith's reign of terror. Just imprison her for her excesses, name Cullen the new Knight-Commander and help rebuild the city and form a new Circle. That's my headcanon, anyway.
Supporting the templars doesn't mean supporting Meredith. Given how the game doesn't give you the choice to rally templars like Ser Thrask, Cullen and others to form a group that opposes Meredith and dethrones her, this is the best option if Hawke wishes to become viscount, restablish order, rebuild the city from its ashes and help both the templars of Kirkwall and the future mages who'll immigrate to the city once a new Circle has been created, with better conditions for the mages, better accomodations and fair treatment.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2019 22:34:06 GMT
DragonEffect Meredith's the Knight-Commander, and at the moment, seems the Templars support her. Who was not with Thrask, was with Meredith. Including Cullen. Meredith declared at the beginning of the Act3, she doesn't want a new viscount, the Templars rule over the city. Hawke can't expect any benefit from her and her Templars' support. And you said: Cullen knew, she's mad, but still supported her, and while he seems a little bit shaken, still defended her and her methods (even in the Inquisition...). Yes, he compared Meredith to Uldred – and even when she said, she invokes the Right of Annulment, Cullen remained with her. At the moment when Hawke should choose, can see a madwoman, who want to kill every mage (if Hawke's not a mage, his/her sister as well), and seems the Templars support her – as always in her crimes. King Alistair is clear about that a secular ruler can't do anything against the Chantry/Templars. It was also clear from the first moment, when Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, that Dumar is Meredith's puppet, she don't want to work with anyone, who doesn't want to be her puppet. There's nothing suggest this will change. How Hawke's able to hope, after s/he helped to kill every mage, Meredith will go to the prison just because s/he asks her... (At the moment Hawke can't see, there a chance to protect anyone – including Bethany). So: Meredith is the Templar Order in Kirkwall herself. And Hawke is the Champion, not a prophet. A madwoman with a dishonest army against the city.
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is wanting to have some fun!
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 28, 2019 13:27:10 GMT
Look at this, you just can't say no to this.
I've never sided with Meredith, and I never will.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 30, 2019 13:49:41 GMT
Look at this, you just can't say no to this. Ohhh... kinky
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 6, 2019 7:23:10 GMT
I still feel like people are being too hard on Meredith.
The combination of the idol - brought about by Hawke's and the Tethrases' own greed, with Corypheous' influence outside the city weakening the veil and kept secret by the Grey Wardens, giving the impression of a blood magic infestation and conspiracy when the actual problem was Kirkwall, aren't things that she had any control over or any ability to foresee.
I'm looking forward to a play-through supporting her.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 6, 2019 21:40:20 GMT
I still feel like people are being too hard on Meredith. The combination of the idol - brought about by Hawke's and the Tethrases' own greed, with Corypheous' influence outside the city weakening the veil and kept secret by the Grey Wardens, giving the impression of a blood magic infestation and conspiracy when the actual problem was Kirkwall, aren't things that she had any control over or any ability to foresee. I'm looking forward to a play-through supporting her. Too hard? Not the red lyrium caused her crimes and tyranny – the red lyrium was only the consequence of that, and not the cause. We saw it even in Act 1. If there would any possibility, my Hawke would confront and kill her without a doubt. She tranquilized mages just for show her power and to keep the others in fear. Ruled over the city with her Templars – that also not a Templar's authority. She abused her power. We can't judge hard enough a person like her. She's clearly a villain, that's not even a question. The decent, reasonable person who probably she was, in her childhood, killed by the system, what remained just the cruel criminal tyrant. The red lyrium isn't an excuse.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 6, 2019 22:56:06 GMT
I don't buy it if "it was just the red Lyrium" is used as an exceuse. Meredith's childhood experience drove her to exactly the same wrong conclusion as Isolde, and her subsuquent exposure to Chantry propaganda surely did not help either. Meredith basically appointed Dumar and at his coronation, she gave him a box containing Threnhold's bloody and broken signet ring with the charming note "His fate need not be yours". Does not this smell like a counterpart to an asshole noble in buildup. (Besides the in-universe people seem to be concerned with Templars ruling an entire local fiefdom.)
Blaming the issue on Hawke and Varric (or even Bartrand, even though he's a dick) is kind of a moot point. They most surely did not know what they would find down there, either. It also begs the question why an apparently experienced Templar commander messed around with an "evil (magical) artifact" instead of locking it up in a repository. Instead, does she feel the "powah" and decides that she must have it? Well, here's the Templar counterpart to the cackling evil chliché Blood Mage. (Denam in DAI is exactly that if one discovers the dead Knight-Vigilant) If the idol could affect her in such a way because she was already messed up beforehand, then well...
On a further note... I'm a bit tired of binary Mages vs. Templars choices. DAO does give nuanced options with regards to Broken Circle. Regardless if the Warden's initial stance is "Kill 'em all!", "Save them all!" or just "Let's see what can still be done without risking too much.", the final decision comes at the end. One could intent to save the survivors, but be too slow/late to prevent Uldred from turning Irving and Co. into fleshbulbs, hence getting Templar support in the end. Or just decide on a "better safe than sorry" stance regarding the survivors and have them locked up, still getting Templars. I had all outcomes. As for DAI, I had a mage Adaar who felt no particular kinship with the Circle mages and decided to root out the possible threat of Lord Seeker Dickhead and his band of wannebe world rulers. So she ended up recruiting the sane survivors into the Inquisition and disbanding the Order. She needs their skills, not dogmatic zeal and self-righteousness. Merrydeath on the other hand... gives me or my Hawkes no motivation to support her power trip that turns into full-blown "kill 'em all" at the start of Act3.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 6, 2019 23:08:17 GMT
Too hard? Not the red lyrium caused her crimes and tyranny – the red lyrium was only the consequence of that, and not the cause. We saw it even in Act 1. If there would any possibility, my Hawke would confront and kill her without a doubt. She tranquilized mages just for show her power and to keep the others in fear. Ruled over the city with her Templars – that also not a Templar's authority. She abused her power. We can't judge hard enough a person like her. She's clearly a villain, that's not even a question. The decent, reasonable person who probably she was, in her childhood, killed by the system, what remained just the cruel criminal tyrant. The red lyrium isn't an excuse. None of which escalated out of control until the red lyrium came into play, which it did because of Hawke and Varric and Anders, not her. Kirkwall is essentially a blood mage and abomination factory, after what's been done to the veil there. That's a fact. The Chantry essentially taking possession of the city and trying to tamp down on that could easily be argued to be exactly the reason they exist, and entirely within their purview as a matter of common sense, superseding both ordinary laws and human rights such as they are. The relative discomfort of a few dozen mages and the abject misery of a handful means little compared to the suffering that would occur if nobody tried to keep the city in check, and Anders' speculations about why she does anything are worthless given how hopelessly biased, not to mention possessed by an irrational extraplanar entity, he is. Ideally the population should have been relocated and the city razed to the ground, but that would have required that people actually talk to each other about their dark secret prisons and whatnot. In lieu of that, I don't see that much to complain about. Most of the things you're accusing her of, such as her rationale for tranquilizing any given mage, we don't actually know anything about. And the rest might well be far better than the alternative. I'm not saying she was a particularly good person, or even that she did a particularly good job. But it's pretty obvious that you hate her mostly because you're in love with the idea of mage freedom and she got in the way.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 6, 2019 23:32:47 GMT
Too hard? Not the red lyrium caused her crimes and tyranny – the red lyrium was only the consequence of that, and not the cause. We saw it even in Act 1. If there would any possibility, my Hawke would confront and kill her without a doubt. She tranquilized mages just for show her power and to keep the others in fear. Ruled over the city with her Templars – that also not a Templar's authority. She abused her power. We can't judge hard enough a person like her. She's clearly a villain, that's not even a question. The decent, reasonable person who probably she was, in her childhood, killed by the system, what remained just the cruel criminal tyrant. The red lyrium isn't an excuse. None of which escalated out of control until the red lyrium came into play, which it did because of Hawke and Varric and Anders, not her. Kirkwall is essentially a blood mage and abomination factory, after what's been done to the veil there. That's a fact. The Chantry essentially taking possession of the city and trying to tamp down on that could easily be argued to be exactly the reason they exist, and entirely within their purview as a matter of common sense, superseding both ordinary laws and human rights such as they are. The relative discomfort of a few dozen mages and the abject misery of a handful means little compared to the suffering that would occur if nobody tried to keep the city in check, and Anders' speculations about why she does anything are worthless given how hopelessly biased, not to mention possessed by an irrational extraplanar entity, he is. Ideally the population should have been relocated and the city razed to the ground, but that would have required that people actually talk to each other about their dark secret prisons and whatnot. In lieu of that, I don't see that much to complain about. Most of the things you're accusing her of, such as her rationale for tranquilizing any given mage, we don't actually know anything about. And the rest might well be far better than the alternative. I'm not saying she was a particularly good person, or even that she did a particularly good job. But it's pretty obvious that you hate her mostly because you're in love with the idea of mage freedom and she got in the way. It was proved, that she tranquilized mages just to show the others they better if remained "good" one and keep them fear. It was before the Act1 – Samson was a beggar already. Anders was not irrational there. Everything he said, proved, and it was even worse. You also can't say, that he specifically hated Meredith: he said, Meredith at least believes, he serves the good. So: seems Anders is too benevolent toward her – even he considers her an enemy (and she is – to everyone, not only Anders and the mages). Also: she punished the mages in the Circle for a love letter AND for lesser things as well (as CULLEN –who believed in her– said... you really think, that it was better "alternative" than if she doesn't made tranquil them for a love letter and less things than a love letter?), but did nothing against the real danger, in fact he prevented the investigation of Emeric, and punished him – instead of investigate that crime, and search for the criminal. Also: Hawke solved the problems in Act1 – and later as well. Meredith only hunted and punished innocents and captives – for nothing. Allowed the rapes and illegal Tranquility. Yes, "he didn't know about it, Alrik kept his secret..." Really? She was absolutely blind... Alrik had many supporters, also Karras... I think Meredith was among them. Or she REALLY didn't see, what happen? Everyone knew it, only she didn't? Tss...tss... Then she was simply blind stupid ignorant – not a Knight-Commander, just a violent mad, who doesn't even able to keep the order on her own garbage dump. The alternative ONLY, that she supported it, directly and willingly. She really protected anything? Never. She caused the problems, even without the red lyrium. She was the victim of the system, an aggressor, and the icon of the system.
I'm in love the idea of freedom, not the idea of paranoia, what is more danger than "mages" were ever.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 7, 2019 1:19:33 GMT
I don't buy it if "it was just the red Lyrium" is used as an exceuse. Meredith's childhood experience drove her to exactly the same wrong conclusion as Isolde, and her subsuquent exposure to Chantry propaganda surely did not help either. Meredith basically appointed Dumar and at his coronation, she gave him a box containing Threnhold's bloody and broken signet ring with the charming note "His fate need not be yours". Does not this smell like a counterpart to an asshole noble in buildup. (Besides the in-universe people seem to be concerned with Templars ruling an entire local fiefdom.) Blaming the issue on Hawke and Varric (or even Bartrand, even though he's a dick) is kind of a moot point. They most surely did not know what they would find down there, either. It also begs the question why an apparently experienced Templar commander messed around with an "evil (magical) artifact" instead of locking it up in a repository. Instead, does she feel the "powah" and decides that she must have it? Well, here's the Templar counterpart to the cackling evil chliché Blood Mage. (Denam in DAI is exactly that if one discovers the dead Knight-Vigilant) If the idol could affect her in such a way because she was already messed up beforehand, then well... On a further note... I'm a bit tired of binary Mages vs. Templars choices. DAO does give nuanced options with regards to Broken Circle. Regardless if the Warden's initial stance is "Kill 'em all!", "Save them all!" or just "Let's see what can still be done without risking too much.", the final decision comes at the end. One could intent to save the survivors, but be too slow/late to prevent Uldred from turning Irving and Co. into fleshbulbs, hence getting Templar support in the end. Or just decide on a "better safe than sorry" stance regarding the survivors and have them locked up, still getting Templars. I had all outcomes. As for DAI, I had a mage Adaar who felt no particular kinship with the Circle mages and decided to root out the possible threat of Lord Seeker Dickhead and his band of wannebe world rulers. So she ended up recruiting the sane survivors into the Inquisition and disbanding the Order. She needs their skills, not dogmatic zeal and self-righteousness. Merrydeath on the other hand... gives me or my Hawkes no motivation to support her power trip that turns into full-blown "kill 'em all" at the start of Act3. Who said "it was just the red Lyrium"? Is anybody denying that Meredith was messed up on some level? That her actions were brutal and inexcusable under most normal circumstances? That the situation in Kirkwall was illegal and definitely created a lot of hard feelings? Did anyone accuse Hawke or Varric of intentionally bringing evil to the world? Hawke and Varric went into the deep roads knowing they were full of disease and buried horrors, with the intention of bringing whatever shiny thing they could back with them. That resulted in an evil, poisonous object that nobody understood being brought back to the surface world, which wasn't an entirely unpredictable outcome given what they set out to do, and they did it anyway. They deserve some blame for that, and at least partial blame for Meredith's sanity slippage as a direct result of their actions. So far as we know, Meredith had no way in the world of knowing what it was. The material hadn't been seen for over a thousand years, and I somehow doubt Bartrand mentioned the fact that it had made him insane or even that he'd found it in the Deep Roads when he sold it to her. You could argue that making a sword out of the stuff and carrying it around on a daily basis wasn't a brilliant idea, but there's no indication that it was either malicious or that stupid either. Weapons made from exotic materials, including lyrium infusion, is pretty standard in the setting. For all we know she just really fancied the colour. Her decision to annul the mages wasn't made until she'd been carrying the substance around for years. It made Bartrand try to kill his little brother after a few minutes. The idea that the idol had no meaningful effect on her and she was entirely herself and accountable for her own behavior after all that time is beyond ludicrous. As is the idea that it could only affect her because she was already somewhat unhinged. There's no evidence for that whatsoever. She might well have deserved to be called a tyrant beforehand, although I would still argue that Kirkwall's nature as abomination central demanded a lot more of that treatment than people are giving it credit for. She might even have been a maniac beforehand, although we certainly don't see enough of her to be able to say that for certain. But she sure as hell wasn't genocidal until the red lyrium, and even then it took years of exposure and the bombing of a church right in front of her to push her to that point. Nobody is saying that she was a good person, but you're definitely being too hard on her. And yup, the binary mage/templar dichotomy has been terrible right since DA2. The issue itself and its hypothetical solutions are fairly complex and take a lot of discussion to unpack, and the games' dialogue has never really lived up to that, even in Origins.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 12, 2019 14:00:46 GMT
Who said "it was just the red Lyrium"? Is anybody denying that Meredith was messed up on some level? That her actions were brutal and inexcusable under most normal circumstances? That the situation in Kirkwall was illegal and definitely created a lot of hard feelings? Did anyone accuse Hawke or Varric of intentionally bringing evil to the world? It was more of a general statement, else I might have quoted directly. Some older posts in here appear to be... odd by my reasoning. I honestly cannot come up with a good reason why Mage Hawke should side with her at finale that works for me. They probably expected some Darkspawn and Dwarven clutter. They did search for an entry with somewhat less darkspawn presence. Ancient evil? I doubt so. Templar abilities are fishy_as_heck even after Cole sheds some more light on them. The DA2/DAI version of Holy Simte begs explanation, as it is not backed by lore at all, as well as the "Mana Burn" damage from DAO's HS. I have no clue if Templars are supposed to somehow "notice" lyrium - some people apparently believe they can sense magic/mage-ness - but I thought they were at least instructed to look out for anything that could be unknown, supernatural and possibly magical, which is triple evil by Chantry standards. Perhaps I'm expecting a bit too much with regards to the Templars, but given all the fuss that is made about them in-universe, it is rather easy to get lost.
My experience with military workings is limited, but anyway, Templars do have uniforms, don't they? Strange that seemingly nobody noticed her non-standard-issue sword. I mean, "Look at the bones skull!" I would not call her unhinged, but there are certain things that undoubtedly could affect someone in her position. First and foremost, generic Lyrium exposure. Taking her as at least mid-forties to fifty, she's been exposed to it for more than half her life and we know since DAO that Lyrium does take its toll. Second, the amount of (unchecked) power she has. I doubt that Lastly, her childhood experiences, traumata gleaind from that and a -fuckload- of Chantry propaganda.
Half of her personal "abomination central" is probably due to Kirkwall's background and Corypheus, the rest is on her constant pushing. She pushes, the circle mages resist, she's pissed how they dare to challenge her and pushes harder... rinse and repeat.
I do agree that we don't know enough to pinpoint when it started. Around 1/3 into Act 2, one may encounter Bartrand, who came back to take the idol Meredith bought from him, so I guess she got it in the intermediate three years, so she probably had "access" to it for up to six or seven years tops. At the end of Act 2, she uses a normal longsword and behaves like a typical haugthy self-righteous Templar. The evil sword appears on her in the beginning of Act 3. Not quite in case of the Annulment. If Karras is still alive by the beginning of Act 3, he mentions that Meredith has sent request for the Annulment if talked to. I could imagine that Anders suspected her to go Annulment for the slightest reason, and as he wanted to force the circle into a fight, he delivered an excuse for her, so to speak. And with Elthina out of the way, she could also just do it by "pulling rank".
To return the question: Why you intent to defend her? I guess she should have been reigned in as soon as she was seizing power over the city, i.e. after she removed Perrin Threnhold. She's a Templar commander, not a civilian/mundane ruler. You might again state that but apparently, Val Royeaux did not really care about abominations, but about orlesian navel trade/miitary movement, so it allowed the Order to rule the city so they keep that passage open, the filthy locals and their demands be damned. It only send a single agent after the proverbial shit had been hitting the fan and that is DLC content.
Well, I'm not too fond of a bunch of elitist, militaristic zealots running cities. Heck, she is on the same level with Anders, both are so obsessed with their own interpretation of "ends justify ("all" by Act 3) the means". /rant
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Post by Catilina on Nov 12, 2019 19:13:27 GMT
Noxluxe It was absolutely clear in Origins as well: The prison-Circles are bad. No question. And the fact, the Circles were prisons mentioned in DAO, in the narration. Again: not Anders said, not anyone else – it was the part of the narration, and the experience of my first Warden in my first PT. Also: Neither Kirkwall's situation, nor anything else doesn't justify Meredith's methods, BEFORE and after the red lyrium. Nothing justifies that tyranny and madness, crimes whose were her methods. Those were wrong – as you said as well, don't you? So: it's very binary situation. Buckeldemon She was never on Anders level: Her standpoints are inherently wrong, while Anders standpoints were always right and if he was "obsessed" he was obsessed with the right – you can't put to the same level an aggressor and a freedom fighter. And it's not about the Act 3. We can say, that Anders' act was morally questionable. But we speak about ONE desperate act, while Meredith didn't anything good, and never served the good, since she was appointed to Knight-Commander of the Gallows, or rather she joined to the Templar Order.
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 12, 2019 19:19:00 GMT
Not quite in case of the Annulment. If Karras is still alive by the beginning of Act 3, he mentions that Meredith has sent request for the Annulment if talked to. I could imagine that Anders suspected her to go Annulment for the slightest reason, and as he wanted to force the circle into a fight, he delivered an excuse for her, so to speak. And with Elthina out of the way, she could also just do it by "pulling rank". To return the question: Why you intent to defend her? I guess she should have been reigned in as soon as she was seizing power over the city, i.e. after she removed Perrin Threnhold. She's a Templar commander, not a civilian/mundane ruler. You might again state that I call bullshit. Watch the scene again. When the Chantry full of people goes up in flames she doesn't act like someone who was just waiting for an excuse. She's obviously genuinely shocked and horrified at what Anders has done, and reacts accordingly. And honestly? You just referred to someone wanting to retaliate against the bombing of a church as doing it "for the slightest reason". You're either deliberately or subconsciously minimizing Anders' atrocities to make her sound worse than she is. Shit like that is why I defend her. People have thrown common sense and perspective completely out the window just to hate on the templars, and by extension the big bad lady in armor. At no point whatsoever have I indicated that I don't think there's any reason to hate her, or said that anything she does is particularly good or just. You clearly just can't fathom her not being painted in the worst and most pointlessly hateful light possible. And I think that's ridiculous and unbecoming.
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