TabithaTH
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 8, 2018 5:13:27 GMT
The Fog Warriors don’t really have substantive numbers, not on the same scale as the Qunari or Tevinter. In fantasy, it doesn't matter how many they are if the PC sides with them .
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Post by Sifr on Aug 8, 2018 6:00:59 GMT
Nothing would make me happier than Fen'Harel being a subplot and the actual game being about a present-day threat instead of the trite RPG-standard plot of "old evil god wants to destroy the world". I have to admit, that's sort of what I liked most about DA2's approach, where you've having to deal with the local politics and conflicts within a particular turbulent city-state, rather than fight ancient evils and get involved in earth-shattering events that change nations or all life in Thedas forever.
(I wouldn't count the events at the Gallows or in the Legacy DLC, which did pit us against ancient evils and have ramifications that would affect all of Thedas, as both were intended to set up events for future games where they'd be resolved.)
---
As for Rasaan, I'd completely forgotten that Isabela spared her life in the comics. She was definitely intimidating and would make for an excellent antagonist if they brought her back for a future game, could only imagine how terrifying it'd be for her to capture and interrogate our next protagonist at some point.
(Also the title thread is slightly misleading as Rasaan isn't the Ariqun... at least not yet. At the moment, she's still only the chosen successor of the Ariqun and acting as an emissary on her behalf, that's why she's been working closely alongside Sten/Arishok.)
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Post by Reznore on Aug 8, 2018 7:28:24 GMT
The only thing that worries me about the Qunari is them going full derp about magic. That would be on the priesthood. Otherwise, I'm pro veil like the Qunari...unless I RP a character too fond of magic, we share the same ideas about that topic. Bashing Qunari on the skull is just a necessary formality, not something I enjoy all that much. I'm down for having tea with Rasaan and forming an alliance. Well up until the unavoidable skull bashing with no hard feelings.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2018 8:03:37 GMT
I don't think any of those three will be the ultimate antagonist of the game. I strongly suspect it'll be something Titan-related, but I'm biased. The Titans are the most interesting thing to come out of the entire franchise so far, and I want more focus on them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2018 8:26:09 GMT
As for Rasaan, I'd completely forgotten that Isabela spared her life in the comics. She was definitely intimidating and would make for an excellent antagonist if they brought her back for a future game, could only imagine how terrifying it'd be for her to capture and interrogate our next protagonist at some point. I also think that the heroes of the comics, Alistair and Isabella, overcame the Arishok and Rasaan respectively far too easily. Isabella in the comics in particular seems way too infallible. Claudio has her down and disarmed but somehow she manages to get up, cut off his arm and kill him; Rasaan has her in her power and is about to administer Qamek but somehow she manages to overpower a highly trained Qunari priestess and escape; then they have another encounter and Rasaan has her down on the ground and disarmed, yet wouldn't you know it, Isabella is able to reach for a knife, stab and throw her off, before finally having Rasaan on the ground at her mercy. One wonders why the nations had so much problem defeating the Qun when two of their leading figures are so easily defeated. So, yes, I would like to see Rasaan in all her glory and with the skill and power that goes with her role. She should not be someone who is easily overcome and her presence should be intimidating, even terrifying if you get on the wrong side of her. She could be a fascinating adversary or even an ally if that is the way the plot takes us. Whilst I do not agree with the Qun philosophy in its entirety, not all of it is bad, so there is room for intelligent debate about its merits and trying to get her to question certain aspects of it (not that I would expect to succeed in changing her mind). Also, if it is a choice between allying with Rasaan or letting Solas fry the world, then I'd opt for the alliance unless Solas can come up with a very good reason for me to change my mind - for example frying is necessary to destroy the Taint - and even then I might not believe him. It would depend on my new PC and their experiences with him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2018 8:30:40 GMT
I don't think any of those three will be the ultimate antagonist of the game. I strongly suspect it'll be something Titan-related, but I'm biased. The Titans are the most interesting thing to come out of the entire franchise so far, and I want more focus on them. I think there will be a focus on the Tevinter/Qunari war to lead our new protagonist into the game because it is not clear how much anyone outside the Inquisition knows or acknowledges the threat Solas presents. Hopefully, though, the Titans will also come into it at a later stage. There is still a lot that needs explaining about them and where they fit into the whole scheme of things with regard to the origins of Thedas and the races, not to mention the Blight. If nothing else I expect a section of the game devoted to visiting Kal-Sharok and finding the secret behind their survival, which will likely also tie in with further revelations about the Titans.
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TabithaTH
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 8, 2018 13:36:22 GMT
I think there will be a focus on the Tevinter/Qunari war to lead our new protagonist into the game because it is not clear how much anyone outside the Inquisition knows or acknowledges the threat Solas presents. Especially if you disband at the end of trespasser. Then you really have no authority or reason for people to listen to you (at least not the people who would have the power to help).
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Post by wickedcool on Aug 8, 2018 19:03:34 GMT
Regards to Solas and his spirit friends. I could see him pulling a return of the king and commanding a spirit army
I didn’t read the comics but were the qunari in the comics connected to the ones in trespasser?
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theascendent
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 8, 2018 19:39:39 GMT
Regards to Solas and his spirit friends. I could see him pulling a return of the king and commanding a spirit army I didn’t read the comics but were the qunari in the comics connected to the ones in trespasser? 'Officially' the Viddasala and her Ben-Hassrath were performing an unsanctioned mission. But we all know the value of Qunari words. They had much to gain and little to lose. If she is successful, they eliminate the leaders of the Chantry and two large nations. They failed, so they did their best to disavow this 'rogue' cell like any compromised black ops. Considering that they immediately ramped up the war in Tevinter after their failure is indicative of the clandestine support they had from the rest of the Qun. They wanted them to succeed, but they didn't so now they have to take the more direct route, war against Tevinter. They need a quick victory as the major power Orlais is still recovering from the Mage-Templar War, Civil War and the war against Corypheus. If they can finally remove Tevinter, who are unlikely to receive support due to being estranged from the rest of Thedas, they'll have a front to conquer a divided and weakened south.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2018 20:10:53 GMT
Yes, it was clear that the disowning of the Viddasala was because she was discovered and the mission failed. She says the idea was that the south should be conquered without too much bloodshed among the ordinary people. Simply removing the leaders would not have been sufficient; they would have needed to mobilise forces across the south to take control whilst people were still too confused to respond. For that the forces of the Qun had to be on stand-by ready to respond once the bombs had been activated. Then when that plan failed they used the massed forces to launch a surprise attack on Tevinter. Meanwhile, they disavowed any knowledge of the Viddasala's plan and confirmed their alliance with the Inquisition/Divine (if one existed) in order to avert them coming to Tevinter's aid.
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Post by ellehaym on Aug 8, 2018 21:53:24 GMT
When the Arishok attacked Kirkwall the Ariqun and Arigena at the time traveled to the only Qun settlement in mainland Thedas to make a public statement in front of chantry officials, diplomats, etc just to disavow what the Arishok did.
Instead of doing that, they just sent a letter and as Sten said about the Llomeryn Accord: it's just a letter to placate Southern Thedas
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 9, 2018 1:32:21 GMT
When the Arishok attacked Kirkwall the Ariqun and Arigena at the time traveled to the only Qun settlement in mainland Thedas to make a public statement in front of chantry officials, diplomats, etc just to disavow what the Arishok did. Instead of doing that, they just sent a letter and as Sten said about the Llomeryn Accord: it's just a letter to placate Southern Thedas The Arishok situation was definitely just him. He was stuck, he was upset, he was drunk (literally drinking on his throne, there’s a big stack of wine bottles hidden behind it). He had all the signs of a rogue actor. Viddasala it’s harder to tell, but I’m not 100% convinced she was sanctioned either. Imagine if she wasn’t sanctioned - what exactly could the Qunari leadership do differently? Since she was targeting nobles... who, let’s face it, aren’t even that popular among their own people, her plan likely seemed way more reasonable to the average Qunari. And the average Qunari has a very, very good reason to be gunning for conquest: viddath-bas. To explain this, I’m going to dive way too deep into theories about the economic situation of Par Vollen. So strap in. The Qunari have a very severe labor problem. Approximately half of their population (actually more, since some women are in the priesthood) is automatically disqualified for agricultural labor. This is a problem because equivalently advanced societies need upwards of 70-90% of their labor force to be working in agriculture. There are economies to this day that still have that high % of farmers, and not only do they have better farm equipment than even the super-advanced Qunari, but they can also trade with other technologically advanced societies, a luxury the Qunari don’t have. Add onto that, the Qunari are supporting a huge army. This means they don’t just have viddath-bas. They absolutely need a large cohort of viddath-bas for their society to function along the 3 partitions they’ve chosen. So... how do they fill that gap in peacetime? TL;DR: Even if the leadership believes war isn’t wise, the citizenry is operating on a different cost-benefit analysis - “more conquest means less of my friends get qamek’d by the Ben-Hassrath”. So it’s in the leadership’s best interest to play both sides, even if Viddasala had been a rogue agent.
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 9, 2018 1:39:10 GMT
"Anaan esaam Qun" works both ways. If someone is defeated, they are, by definition, not acting on behalf of the Qun.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 9, 2018 7:53:32 GMT
When the Arishok attacked Kirkwall the Ariqun and Arigena at the time traveled to the only Qun settlement in mainland Thedas to make a public statement in front of chantry officials, diplomats, etc just to disavow what the Arishok did. Instead of doing that, they just sent a letter and as Sten said about the Llomeryn Accord: it's just a letter to placate Southern Thedas I think this is a very good point. They made far more effort with the Arishok because he was acting alone. The fact that Rasaan was not sent to assist him actually makes me think they had abandoned him already. The moment he lost the Tome he was considered a failure in the same way as if he had lost his sword. He knew this which was why he stayed there trying to recover it, not because it would save his life when he returned to Par Vollen but because he was still loyal to the Qun. However, whatever occurred in Kirkwall was not planned by the Qun in advance but just the Arishok responding to the situation he found himself in. What the Viddasala was involved in was part of an actual plan. The seeds of this were planted back in Kirkwall and elsewhere in the preceding years. Both Talis and Gatt admit to the Qun using elven spies as they are easier to blend in. Hawke knew there was an extensive network of spies from the experience with Talis and the degree to which they had infiltrated in Kirkwall was revealed during the attack by the Arishok in the large number of elves that supported the Qunari. (Incidentally the reason why Leliana should have checked elven recruits more thoroughly, particularly those from Kirkwall). If you side with the Qun in Bull's quest, the War Table missions also show how extensive the spy network is. However, she says the catalyst to act as they did was the Breach. To the Qun it was clear that the south had clearly allowed mages and magic to get out of control. So they instructed Iron Bull to infiltrate the Inquisition to see how much help they were going to be in controlling things, whilst simultaneously getting the Viddasala to begin her research on ways to strengthen the Veil. Until they discovered about the Inquisitor and the Anchor they probably also thought this would be necessary to repair the damage already done. Then once the Breach had been dealt with, the way was clear for them to begin the next stage, which was take over the south to prevent a repeat situation developing in the future. Forces were prepared, dreadnoughts commissioned and then the Exalted Council gave them the perfect opportunity to take out everyone who could offer effective leadership against them at the same time, both at the Council itself and across the nations of the south. If they hadn't used Solas' eluvian network it might have worked, although his agents may have alerted him to it anyway. Still, after such a major operation had been revealed, if Viddasala had really been working all alone and unauthorised, it seems odd that the Qun's own agents didn't try and stop her. Her plan would never have worked without the backing of their leadership but it would have compromised any real plans they had for the south. The only part that I feel may have been her own initiative was trying to power up the Saarabas with lyrium. So this allowed the Triumvirate to equivocate and say that they her activities were not authorised without necessarily specifying which activities they were referring to.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 12, 2018 12:14:15 GMT
However, she says the catalyst to act as they did was the Breach. To the Qun it was clear that the south had clearly allowed mages and magic to get out of control. I wonder how the Qunari responded when they learned the Breach came about due to series of completely unforeseen circumstances?
Because who could have guess that two powerful ancient beings (one an Ancient Elven "God" and the other an Ancient Tevinter Darkspawn) that had been asleep for millennia, should both happen to wake up around the same time and find the modern era wanting? Or that one should manage to trick the other into unlocking a magical Orb, causing a massive explosion that had the byproduct of tearing open the Veil?
(Of course, the Qunari were wrong about Solas, assuming he was merely an agent, but they had correctly deduced everything else. From the agents of Fen'Harel having been the ones to give Corypheus the Orb, to Solas having manipulated the Inquisition into stopping Corypheus and lead them to Skyhold.)
I highly doubt that learning the true circumstances of the Breach would have changed the Qunari's mind about wanting to conquer the South (especially as the Mage-Templar war was already proof that the south couldn't control mages), but it does make me wonder if there wasn't any internal discussion about it within the Triumvirate?
Some kind of acknowledgment that although the southern mages weren't dangerous enough to create the Breach, powerful beings with magic like Corypheus could. And that the south's failure to properly leash magic allowed Corypheus, the Venatori and the Agents of Fen'Harel run amok for years without anyone noticing. Therefore, the Qunari could justify invading because it was the only way to restore peace and sanity to the south, by properly containing magic once and for all.
(At least, that's how I'd imagine the Qunari would respond to anyone pointing out the Viddasala's justification in Trespasser actually doesn't hold up to scrutiny, since it has already long been disproven that the southern mages were responsible for the Breach.)
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gangrelbeckett
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Aug 12, 2018 12:54:06 GMT
(Also the title thread is slightly misleading as Rasaan isn't the Ariqun... at least not yet. At the moment, she's still only the chosen successor of the Ariqun and acting as an emissary on her behalf, that's why she's been working closely alongside Sten/Arishok.)
This Moment was at least 6 Years ago. Also whats the point of mentioning that she was long ago chosen as the Ariqun's Successor if Bioware don´t use it for a Game where the Ariqun fits best? Bioware could use theoretically a new Character as Ariqun but why should they do this? Rasaan is already established in Comics as a more Villian-like Character. Also i would prefer that the Arishok (Sten) and Rasaan are in an equal position to each other.
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 12, 2018 15:15:08 GMT
Because who could have guess that two powerful ancient beings (one an Ancient Elven "God" and the other an Ancient Tevinter Darkspawn) that had been asleep for millennia, should both happen to wake up around the same time and find the modern era wanting? Or that one should manage to trick the other into unlocking a magical Orb, causing a massive explosion that had the byproduct of tearing open the Veil? To be fair, both of those "power ancient beings" were just Southern Mages who were allowed to get out of control.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 12, 2018 19:16:38 GMT
(At least, that's how I'd imagine the Qunari would respond to anyone pointing out the Viddasala's justification in Trespasser actually doesn't hold up to scrutiny, since it has already long been disproven that the southern mages were responsible for the Breach.) To be fair, both of those "power ancient beings" were just Southern Mages who were allowed to get out of control. Yes, I think they would define "southern mages" as any mage outside of Tevinter, since they already feel magic is totally out of control within that country. I always wondered how Viddasala did know so much about Solas. After all, surely the whole point of getting one of his agents to lead the Venatori to the orb is so that they would not know about his association with it. So if the Venatori didn't know, how did the Qun? Even if they discovered that Solas appeared to have guided the Inquisition to Skyhold, how did they identify him as an agent of Fen'Harel? It would seem their intelligence was definitely superior to that of Leliana, since she didn't even check out his cover story until after he had left. Or did Solas have a double agent, who also appeared to be working for the Qun, in order to feed them the information he wanted them to have?
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 12, 2018 20:47:33 GMT
I think in regards to Solas, if there are Elves in an organisation chances are he has spies in them. Remember that a major reason that Elves join the Qun is for a better life. Remember how Gatt felt uncomfortable with certain aspects of the Qun. Chances are there are other Elves in the Qun who feel as he does, but they had no viable alternative. Solas will want to keep tabs on all major threats to his plans, and he particularly loathes the Qun and Qunari race he'll take any chance to screw them over. Although I don't see the value in the Elven exodus as shown in the Trespasser ending. Those Elves were everywhere and in places useful to him, why summon them all unless he plans something that requires a vast quantity of Elves. Hmmmm. I wonder when was the last time a certain magical ritual required huge quantities of both lyrium and 'volunteers' to perform an audacious and grandiose act of magic. After all we all know how much Solas values life, particularly Elves of modern Thedas.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 12, 2018 21:15:37 GMT
I imagine Solas intentionally left enough of a trail for them to follow so he could use that to gain access to their Eluvians.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 12, 2018 21:40:12 GMT
Yes, I think they would define "southern mages" as any mage outside of Tevinter, since they already feel magic is totally out of control within that country. I always wondered how Viddasala did know so much about Solas. After all, surely the whole point of getting one of his agents to lead the Venatori to the orb is so that they would not know about his association with it. So if the Venatori didn't know, how did the Qun? Even if they discovered that Solas appeared to have guided the Inquisition to Skyhold, how did they identify him as an agent of Fen'Harel? It would seem their intelligence was definitely superior to that of Leliana, since she didn't even check out his cover story until after he had left. Or did Solas have a double agent, who also appeared to be working for the Qun, in order to feed them the information he wanted them to have? My best guess for what happened is this; When the entire Eluvian network was reactivated during The Masked Empire, the Qunari discovered one (or more) of the Eluvians at the Darvaraad had been "unlocked". Rather than immediately destroy the Eluvians (as normally would have), the Viddasla instead send scouts to learn what was on other side... and upon discovering that it was a portal network that spanned across Thedas, the Qun chose to "allow" this use of magic for the sake of the tactical advantage it provided. At some point during their exploration of the Crossroads, the Qunari scouts ran across the agents of Fen'Harel and learned that they weren't the only ones attempting to secure the network for themselves. I'd also wager that the Qunari and the AoF have skirmished several times throughout the Crossroads, which might be why so many of the Eluvians have ended up being shattered, as it would be in both sides interests to limit access to their controlled territory from the enemy. Of course, that doesn't explain how they tied Solas to the agents of Fen'Harel, but I have some ideas for this too; We know that Bull was required to send reports about the Inquisition back to the Ben-Hassrath, so it's likely that Solas was mentioned and described in at least one of those reports about the people he was working alongside. When you consider all the information that Bull had (or rather didn't have) about Solas, it would raise some red flags.
Extremely cryptic and evasive about his background. Unexplained and in-depth knowledge of ancient history and magic. Complete fluency in the (largely forgotten) Elven language. Extreme familiarity with both the Fade and Spirits.
Claims to be self-taught, despite his magic having none of the usual "clunks" one would expect. Somehow knew the location of Skyhold, which no-one even knew existed.
Somehow knew Corypheus' orb was actually Elven. Claims to be able to "sense" Elven magic or artefacts.
Mysteriously appeared in the wake of the Breach. Mysteriously disappeared the moment the threat was dealt with. After the Qunari learned about the AoF (at some point between Inquisition and Trespasser), it wouldn't have been hard for the Viddasala to piece together that Solas was a member and may have manipulated the Inquisition into achieve their goals.
It's less clear how the Qunari knew that the AoF had conspired to let Corypheus "find" the Orb. Either the Viddasala is extremely good at deduction... or she managed to capture an agent and extract the information from them.
(Or less likely, the AoF leaked it to the Qunari, figuring that it hardly mattered keeping it a secret, considering their long-term goal)
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TabithaTH
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 502 Likes: 898
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 13, 2018 9:06:29 GMT
I think in regards to Solas, if there are Elves in an organisation chances are he has spies in them. I already do not trust any elf I’ll meet in DA4 because of this (not even Charter). Can’t wait to see how it’ll affect my playstyle since I usually try to be friends with everybody . Although I don't see the value in the Elven exodus as shown in the Trespasser ending. Those Elves were everywhere and in places useful to him, why summon them all unless he plans something that requires a vast quantity of Elves. Hmmmm. I wonder when was the last time a certain magical ritual required huge quantities of both lyrium and 'volunteers' to perform an audacious and grandiose act of magic. After all we all know how much Solas values life, particularly Elves of modern Thedas. Yeah I was also wondering why he’d summon the elves since that would also make him more visible and like you say, it’s not like he actually wants to save them.
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 13, 2018 13:20:43 GMT
I already do not trust any elf I’ll meet in DA4 because of this (not even Charter).. "Scout Pellane, don't assume I'm secretly working for the bad guy just because of the obvious motives and connections. I am working for the bad guy, and it's for the obvious motives, and we have the obvious connections. But you shouldn't just assume that's the case."
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Post by melbella on Aug 14, 2018 0:55:09 GMT
I already do not trust any elf I’ll meet in DA4 because of this (not even Charter).. "Scout Pellane, don't assume I'm secretly working for the bad guy just because of the obvious motives and connections. I am working for the bad guy, and it's for the obvious motives, and we have the obvious connections. But you shouldn't just assume that's the case."
If we can't trust elves and we can't trust mages, and we can't trust Vints or Qunari, I guess the only ones left are dwarves?
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Post by davesin on Aug 14, 2018 10:38:24 GMT
"Scout Pellane, don't assume I'm secretly working for the bad guy just because of the obvious motives and connections. I am working for the bad guy, and it's for the obvious motives, and we have the obvious connections. But you shouldn't just assume that's the case."
If we can't trust elves and we can't trust mages, and we can't trust Vints or Qunari, I guess the only ones left are dwarves?
And Templars. Let the righteous save this wicked world!
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