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Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 16, 2018 13:50:59 GMT
Did anyone watch the DA Youtube show Felicia made to go with MoTA? It was fun, eventually, but damn they made a lot of mistakes. There was also that romantic vision of the Qun that seems so unrealistic to me, DA is usually good at showing both sides but I felt like they failed to do that so much with Tallis. That webseries was all about spoiling the big plot without anyone knowing. Which actually makes you wonder how much the Qunari actually knew before DAI happened. Mask of Fen'Harel at Sundermount on Mythal's altar to tear the Veil This is one reason I want mage Adaar to be my canon Inquisitor. Imagine how that looks from the Ben-Hassrath’s perspective! They stop a saarebas from unleashing the Mask of Fen’Harel so it can tear the Veil only to run into another saarebas unleashing ACTUAL FEN’HAREL so he can tear the Veil They keep trying to save the world, but they’re living in some bizarre time loop that keeps getting weirder and weirder.
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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Aug 16, 2018 15:33:25 GMT
I am 100% CONVINCED that Tallis was already supposed to be in DA:I and they replaced her with Iron Bull when it turned out everyone hated her. Tallis might have worked better as a character if she'd been a companion throughout DA2. With the amount of Qunari spies already hidden throughout Thedas, couldn't one have been in Kirkwall already? Or have been tasked with keeping an eye on the Arishok and/or helping him to locate the book, which she does by infiltrating Hawke's circle of friends in the hopes that Isabela will lead her to it? (That would have been a good reason why the Qunari never bothered to apprehend Isabela in over four years, as the Arishok seems to already know Isabela's identity when Hawke can tell him that she stole the Tome for a second time) At the end of Act 2, we'd get a double revelation not only about why the Qunari were really in Kirkwall, but that Tallis has been a Qunari spy the entire time. The events mostly play out as before with Isabela fleeing with the Tome, this time however we discover Tallis unconscious outside (having chased after her if in the party or else having been with the Qunari retrieval team). She lies about her reason for being there and pretends to have a concussion, before urging Hawke to not keep the Arishok waiting. From there, events play out again as normal, with the Arishok launching his attack on the city. This time however we enter Tallis, now donned in her MotA armour, who reveals that she has always been a Qunari agent. She admits that she lied about being concussed to chase after Isabela, but she'd managed to give her the slip. When Hawke questions whether Tallis is there to fight, she declares it is "not her role" and expresses concern because the attack wasn't sanctioned. She'd departs to report to her superiors on the situation, not before wishing Hawke and her former friends luck.
I'm not entirely sure what her character arc would be in Act 3 or whether she'd even return to Kirkwall, since her cover might have been blown. Her disappearing from the game at this point would mean we don't get any closure on her character arc in the base game, however those could be resolved in MotA, which now you'd only be able to do once reaching Act 3 (where it always made more sense to occur anyway)
The plot of the DLC would be a lot more interesting if it began with Hawke already going to attend the hunting party, only to find Tallis there undercover. Hawke and their companions then get roped into things because Duke Prosper knows of their previous association and assumes them to be involved. From there, the DLC follows largely same exact plot as before.
The difference this would make is that everyone would know that Tallis is a spy and the dynamic is more about how everyone reacts to it. Some companions are unhappy that she lied to them or felt she betrayed them, but the game would acknowledge that they all (mostly) forgave Isabela for doing the exact same things. I'd also throw in a line where Tallis counters Anders rebuke by asking what he'd be willing to do for something he truly believed in (foreshadowing the end-game), just so the entire DLC doesn't come across as the "Everyone Hates Tallis" hour. Also depending on whether or not Tallis was a romance option, it'd give us the option to either end the relationship for good or part on good terms (leaving it open-ended whether it's a break-up or not), since Tallis won't be returning with everyone to Kirkwall at the end of the DLC. Same goes for the friendship/rival path, you either end on good or bad terms. At least, that's how I'd have written her into the larger plot of DA2.
Tallis had some pretty interesting hooks, IMO. Like the fact that she pushes for no violence - is that her personal preference, a practical necessity for her role (leave less bodies, draw less attention), or some facet of Qunari philosophy? Plus, she’s sort of an on-again/off-again Qunari, and that’s an interesting dynamic, especially for a Ben-Hassrath. Knowing what we now know about Hissrad, how much of her backstory/behavior in Redemption was a front to get people to trust her? Did anyone watch the DA Youtube show Felicia made to go with MoTA? It was fun, eventually, but damn they made a lot of mistakes. There was also that romantic vision of the Qun that seems so unrealistic to me, DA is usually good at showing both sides but I felt like they failed to do that so much with Tallis. I agree with both of the above, there's a ton of potential for the character that sadly hasn't been entirely realised. In Mark of the Assassin, there wasn't much chance to get to know her character in-depth and when it came to the more negative or dubious aspects of the Qun, there was either not much option to confront her on them or she'd dodge the question entirely. (Like pointing out that under the Qun, a Mage Hawke would be bound in chains and have their lips sewn up to prevent them from even talking to another person. No sane mage would ever join the Qun willingly and it'd be a pretty bold claim to suggest that the Qun would "improve" their standard and quality of life).
I do like that she did at least acknowledge that she struggles with parts of the Qun and that it's not perfect, but admires that it's at least trying and the Qunari sincerely want to better themselves and truly believe that if everyone followed the Qun, the world would be a better place.
As for Redemption, part of the problem is was that Felicia Day (who wrote it) fell into the trap of writing Tallis as a bit of a self-insert.
The Tallis in MotA was presented as a skilled assassin, but it doesn't seem like she's that great of a spy. Her "simple heist" suffered numerous setbacks along the way, she needed Hawke to retrieve the key for her, walked them right into a trap and Duke Prosper had worked out she was a Qunari spy within seconds of meeting her (probably because she wears a giant Qunari symbol on her armour) Tallis in Redemption on the other hand was simply too competent in general, which combined with her self-righteous attitude and status as the designated hero, made her sometimes veer into Sueish territory. It's not too bad for an hour-long, low-budget, (Bioware approved) fan-film, but I think it's biggest flaw was how Tallis lost many of the qualities from MotA that served to ground her. (Like being bad at her job, being aware that she's bad at her job and being a huge dork at times. Also her Nug mating dance.)
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arvaarad
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Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
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arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 16, 2018 16:09:51 GMT
In Mark of the Assassin, there wasn't much chance to get to know her character in-depth and when it came to the more negative or dubious aspects of the Qun, there was either not much option to confront her on them or she'd dodge the question entirely. (Like pointing out that under the Qun, a Mage Hawke would be bound in chains and have their lips sewn up to prevent them from even talking to another person. No sane mage would ever join the Qun willingly and it'd be a pretty bold claim to suggest that the Qun would "improve" their standard and quality of life). I wouldn’t be so sure that mages wouldn’t join. The whole point of a radical ideology is that it significantly changes people’s value systems. Joining the Qun doesn’t improve a mage’s life, but if someone’s converting (to any religion), part of that process is about changing their definition of the concept of “improving”. I could imagine the Qunari saying something like “your attachment to your own personal comfort is weakness, and it hurts society as a whole”. As evidence they could hold up... well, all those times when they had their eye on the ball re: pending apocalypses, while the rest of Thedas is just dicking around. Their focus on society over the individual does have some advantages, even if it’s ultimately not a good balance. So this hypothetical mage viddathari acknowledges that their individual life would be significantly worse, but they simply don’t rank that as high on their list of priorities anymore. Tallis in Redemption on the other hand was simply too competent in general, which combined with her self-righteous attitude and status as the designated hero, made her sometimes veer into Sueish territory. Why would the Qunari choose her to be a Tallis if she wasn’t super competent at that role? Especially since she has retention problems; she’d have to be extra competent for them to put up with the risk that she just disappears mid-mission. Iron Bull has, if anything, even crazier spy powers. For example, instantly Sherlocking detailed info on everyone he meets, successfully coordinating with Viddasala despite Leliana watching him, and a level of emotion control that can fool a mind-reading spirit. Not even Solas was able to so consistently hide his intentions from Cole, and he’s like 4000 years old and grew up with spirits around.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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May 10, 2024 21:42:29 GMT
629
theascendent
482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
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theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Aug 16, 2018 16:18:00 GMT
The Elven spies and agents of the Qunari.
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inherit
Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Aug 16, 2018 16:44:50 GMT
Why would the Qunari choose her to be a Tallis if she wasn’t super competent at that role? Same reason Gatt still has a job and they allowed Bull to be re-educated after his breakdown.
"They hate to discard a tool that might still have some use left in it"
Spies like Tallis don't need to be hyper-competent or even do their job particularly well, just as long as the job gets done*
(*But obviously, they aren't allowed to go too off-script when it comes to completing a mission. Tallis begins Redemption demoted for that very reason and Bull's superiors weren't thrilled that broke and offered to share intelligence reports to earn the Inquisition's trust.)
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Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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guest@proboards.com
101
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 17:00:21 GMT
I'm trying to think of something to add but Sifr covered it all perfectly.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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0
May 14, 2024 16:45:56 GMT
26,686
gervaise21
10,808
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2018 18:48:59 GMT
I wouldn’t be so sure that mages wouldn’t join. The whole point of a radical ideology is that it significantly changes people’s value systems. Joining the Qun doesn’t improve a mage’s life, but if someone’s converting (to any religion), part of that process is about changing their definition of the concept of “improving”. I could imagine the Qunari saying something like “your attachment to your own personal comfort is weakness, and it hurts society as a whole”. As evidence they could hold up... well, all those times when they had their eye on the ball re: pending apocalypses, while the rest of Thedas is just dicking around. Their focus on society over the individual does have some advantages, even if it’s ultimately not a good balance. So this hypothetical mage viddathari acknowledges that their individual life would be significantly worse, but they simply don’t rank that as high on their list of priorities anymore. The thing is they don't just leash you and sew your mouth shut if you are a mage raised outside the Qun. They automatically dose you with qamek to destroy your mind because you are considered a hopeless case having been so long outside their control (and I suppose possibly possessed or corrupted). It is what annoyed me when talking to Bull that he doesn't admit to this and even more the banter between him and Dorian because the latter should be well aware of what happens to his compatriot mages when they are captured by the Qun, so joking about wanting to sew his mouth shut seems in pretty poor taste. So if you are a mage then it is not a matter of deciding to join up; the matter is taken out of your hands the moment they realise you are a bas saarebas.
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0
Jun 26, 2019 23:40:38 GMT
5,054
thats1evildude
2,478
August 2016
thats1evildude
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 16, 2018 19:13:59 GMT
Why would the Qunari choose her to be a Tallis if she wasn’t super competent at that role? Especially since she has retention problems; she’d have to be extra competent for them to put up with the risk that she just disappears mid-mission. According to her bio in World of Thedas Volume 2, they actually thought about wiping her brain with qamek and making her a mindless labourer, as she was too willful. It was Salit who took her under his wing and made her a "Tallis."
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 502 Likes: 898
inherit
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May 14, 2024 19:47:15 GMT
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TabithaTH
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Jul 22, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
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teatabitha
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 16, 2018 20:14:19 GMT
The thing is they don't just leash you and sew your mouth shut if you are a mage raised outside the Qun. They automatically dose you with qamek to destroy your mind because you are considered a hopeless case having been so long outside their control (and I suppose possibly possessed or corrupted). It is what annoyed me when talking to Bull that he doesn't admit to this and even more the banter between him and Dorian because the latter should be well aware of what happens to his compatriot mages when they are captured by the Qun, so joking about wanting to sew his mouth shut seems in pretty poor taste. So if you are a mage then it is not a matter of deciding to join up; the matter is taken out of your hands the moment they realise you are a bas saarebas. Maybe some mages are so afraid of their potential power they see it as a lesser evil? There are after all mages who prefer to be made tranquil.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
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arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 16, 2018 20:39:00 GMT
I wouldn’t be so sure that mages wouldn’t join. The whole point of a radical ideology is that it significantly changes people’s value systems. Joining the Qun doesn’t improve a mage’s life, but if someone’s converting (to any religion), part of that process is about changing their definition of the concept of “improving”. I could imagine the Qunari saying something like “your attachment to your own personal comfort is weakness, and it hurts society as a whole”. As evidence they could hold up... well, all those times when they had their eye on the ball re: pending apocalypses, while the rest of Thedas is just dicking around. Their focus on society over the individual does have some advantages, even if it’s ultimately not a good balance. So this hypothetical mage viddathari acknowledges that their individual life would be significantly worse, but they simply don’t rank that as high on their list of priorities anymore. The thing is they don't just leash you and sew your mouth shut if you are a mage raised outside the Qun. They automatically dose you with qamek to destroy your mind because you are considered a hopeless case having been so long outside their control (and I suppose possibly possessed or corrupted). It is what annoyed me when talking to Bull that he doesn't admit to this and even more the banter between him and Dorian because the latter should be well aware of what happens to his compatriot mages when they are captured by the Qun, so joking about wanting to sew his mouth shut seems in pretty poor taste. So if you are a mage then it is not a matter of deciding to join up; the matter is taken out of your hands the moment they realise you are a bas saarebas. There are plenty of people in the real world who will very gladly die for their religion. In Thedas, there are documented cases of mages asking to be made Tranquil, because they believe they’re a danger to others. Among the saarebas, Ketojan willingly ended his life to avoid corrupting others. If a bas mage hears of the Qun and becomes utterly convinced of its rightness, is it so hard to believe that they might willingly go to the Ben-Hassrath, even knowing what it would entail? When someone converts to an extreme worldview, they aren’t drawing conclusions from the same set of basic facts as you or I. Their entire reality is built on a different foundation. So they can behave completely rationally within that framework and look like complete lunatics to people outside. But they’re making deductions and weighing priorities the same way as us... it’s just that their starting point for those deductions is completely alien. For Qunari, that starting point is “act as a society, not as an individual”. To a Qunari, the death of myself is the death of a cell in a body - sometimes necessary, and not something to be alarmed of. What matters is that the body is well, and it’s noble and fulfilling to contribute to that purpose. Even in southern Thedas, you’d come across a similar attitude in many of the armies.
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Walter Black
1,257
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 16, 2018 21:50:59 GMT
Having played a lot of World of Warcraft back in the day, it always annoyed me to no end whenever a slightly unpopular character was turned into an evil raid boss. Complex personalities that could improve with enough development? PFFFT, that's too hard, let's give in to certain players' instant gratification revenge fantasies . Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I would prefer Bioware rise to the challenge of fixing their mistakes and actually improve Tallis' possible arcs. As an elven viddathari, Tallis provides a unique insight into the Qun that neither Sten nor Iron Bull could explore. Since Sten remained completely loyal, Iron Bull could go either way and many (myself included) are hoping for a possibly female kossith saarebas tal-vashoth Companion, I think Tallis might stay Qunari but work to improve it from within. This could work is she were a full Companion, or just a side quest. Gatt could also work, but he didn't strike me as interesting.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
May 14, 2024 16:45:56 GMT
26,686
gervaise21
10,808
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 17, 2018 7:26:29 GMT
I think Tallis might stay Qunari but work to improve it from within. This is always the bit I have a problem with. Gatt expressed a similar idea. How does a person, whose role is not in anyway concerned with education or administration persuade an organisation that considers itself it is the answer to society's problems to change? This is not about the changing their approach to conquering other nations, which is where they do appear open to new ideas, judging from Sten's story. He was successful in putting forward his ideas as a junior officer because they had just suffered a humiliating defeat. This is about the things that Tallis and Gatt realise are not ideal, from their POV, and feel uncomfortable with but are an integral part of the Qunari philosophy. Both these characters have been tolerated within the system, despite their rebellious tendencies, because of the particular uses to which they could be put as part of the spy network. However, for anyone to take notice of their suggested "improvements" they would have to demonstrate to their superiors that current practice was detrimental to the Qun. Not easy considering the moment you voice such criticism they are likely to book you in for a session of re-education.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
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arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2018 12:12:04 GMT
I think Tallis might stay Qunari but work to improve it from within. This is always the bit I have a problem with. Gatt expressed a similar idea. How does a person, whose role is not in anyway concerned with education or administration persuade an organisation that considers itself it is the answer to society's problems to change? This is not about the changing their approach to conquering other nations, which is where they do appear open to new ideas, judging from Sten's story. He was successful in putting forward his ideas as a junior officer because they had just suffered a humiliating defeat. This is about the things that Tallis and Gatt realise are not ideal, from their POV, and feel uncomfortable with but are an integral part of the Qunari philosophy. Both these characters have been tolerated within the system, despite their rebellious tendencies, because of the particular uses to which they could be put as part of the spy network. However, for anyone to take notice of their suggested "improvements" they would have to demonstrate to their superiors that current practice was detrimental to the Qun. Not easy considering the moment you voice such criticism they are likely to book you in for a session of re-education. Depends on how many people have voiced the same criticism before. Shifts like that rarely happen through one or even a couple figureheads, they happen because (1) it becomes practically infeasible to ignore or punish so many people and (2) people are more open to ideas they perceive as popular. We don’t know how anyone under the Arigena feels about core tenets of the Qun. We’ve met people who are in roles that specifically require fanatical loyalty, and even they have doubts. This is like trying to divine the cultural leanings of Orlais based solely on the chevaliers.
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Reznore
942
August 2016
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Post by Reznore on Aug 17, 2018 12:28:00 GMT
I wonder if the Qun has suggestion boxes. If memory serves, some part of the priesthood study the Qun, and can change things. Although, there is a text from Qoslun(?)...don't know how much changes can be made. The text might be vague enough, there is a lot of wriggle room. or Qoslun (?) was encouraging critical thinking and all bets are off.
There's also an issue with the structure of the Qunari society...power is divided, but not really divided equally. The priesthood has a lot of power, whatever the Qun may say about the individuals being lesser than the whole...these are just words. Nothing ever works like that. Even Qunari are sensitive to corruption.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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May 14, 2024 16:45:56 GMT
26,686
gervaise21
10,808
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 17, 2018 12:40:25 GMT
We’ve met people who are in roles that specifically require fanatical loyalty, and even they have doubts. The Arishok and Sten seemed to have no doubts. Viddasala seemed to have no doubts. The majority of operatives that we meet have had no doubts or at least would never express them to a Bas. We know people within the Qun do have doubts or there would be no Tal-Vashoth. However, that is the point, in order to express their doubts required them to leave the organisation. Then the Ben-Hassrath hunt them down because their existence is unacceptable. This is a particular problem on Seheron, which is where at least two of the doubters we have met, Iron Bull and Gatt, were based. May be it is because society cannot be so carefully controlled as it is on Par Vollen that allows these doubts to emerge. However, Iron Bull admits that he felt the problem was with him and needed "fixing" rather than with the system itself. Gatt only admits to doubts because of the challenge made to him by the Inquisitor's group and for all we know could have been just saying what he thought they wanted to hear. Tallis seems to struggle with aspects of the Qun but not enough that the hierarchy regard her as a problem and for all we know she may have concluded the problem lay with her as well rather than the system itself. That would seem to be the limiting factor of change from within. Those who are unhappy enough to rebel are not listened to but re-educated or manage to escape, only to be hunted down and killed. Those who feel something is wrong with aspects of the society on the whole conclude the problem must be with them not the system itself. The people we have met that have expressed doubts have been living for the most part in the outside world, where they are exposed to other cultures and therefore can contrast the two. Even so, not every Qun who sees society in wider Thedas has cause to doubt their own culture; rather it seems to reinforce the idea that theirs is the best solution to life's problems. In any case, those who have started to question are only a small minority of the overall society of the Qun, the majority of whom live on Par Vollen and have never been exposed to anything that might challenge their world view.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2018 13:23:28 GMT
I wonder if the Qun has suggestion boxes. If memory serves, some part of the priesthood study the Qun, and can change things. Although, there is a text from Qoslun(?)...don't know how much changes can be made. The text might be vague enough, there is a lot of wriggle room. or Qoslun (?) was encouraging critical thinking and all bets are off. Based on the excerpts we have so far, it seems like significant extrapolations have already been made. Here’s one example. Their policy on saarebas is based on a passage about a beekeeper (this excerpt is from a section titled “on the danger of mages”): So... let’s recap. Koslun explicitly says, “hey, aren’t you being a little paranoid?” in the text of the story. And even if we’re supposed to take the beekeeper’s point of view, the beekeeper doesn’t do anything to the bees in this story, she wears protective gear on herself. Presumably the policy on saarebas comes from narrowly reading the last 2 sentences and taking them completely out of context. And let’s not even get into how clearly pacifist Koslun is, and their weird interpretation of... all of that.
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May 14, 2024 16:45:56 GMT
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10,808
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 17, 2018 15:51:10 GMT
So... let’s recap. Koslun explicitly says, “hey, aren’t you being a little paranoid?” in the text of the story. And even if we’re supposed to take the beekeeper’s point of view, the beekeeper doesn’t do anything to the bees in this story, she wears protective gear on herself. Presumably the policy on saarebas comes from narrowly reading the last 2 sentences and taking them completely out of context. And let’s not even get into how clearly pacifist Koslun is, and their weird interpretation of... all of that. I don't remember this one at all and I usually read all codices quite carefully. May be I missed that one. I'd agree though that I'm sure someone after Koslun interpreted the text in a way he never intended, just as the Chantry has done with the teaching of Andraste. I had the amusing thought that Koslun may have been an alias for Solas, who gave the Kossith his wisdom for a better society, went for a nap and then came back and found what they had done with it. If that were the case, no wonder he hates them with a vengeance. Seriously though, it seems to be a theme of Dragon Age that no matter the good intentions of the teacher, subsequent generations will twist that teaching so the author would barely recognise the society that claimed to be based on them. I'm hoping that we shall eventually be able to see as much of the Tome of Koslun as we have of the Chant of Light - may be another source book with it in. Then I'd like the opportunity for our PC to point out the difference in interpretation that could be placed on those teachings, although we were never allowed to do that with the Chant of Light so I suppose there is not much chance we shall get any different with the Tome of Koslun.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2018 17:25:52 GMT
So... let’s recap. Koslun explicitly says, “hey, aren’t you being a little paranoid?” in the text of the story. And even if we’re supposed to take the beekeeper’s point of view, the beekeeper doesn’t do anything to the bees in this story, she wears protective gear on herself. Presumably the policy on saarebas comes from narrowly reading the last 2 sentences and taking them completely out of context. And let’s not even get into how clearly pacifist Koslun is, and their weird interpretation of... all of that. I don't remember this one at all and I usually read all codices quite carefully. May be I missed that one. I'd agree though that I'm sure someone after Koslun interpreted the text in a way he never intended, just as the Chantry has done with the teaching of Andraste. I had the amusing thought that Koslun may have been an alias for Solas, who gave the Kossith his wisdom for a better society, went for a nap and then came back and found what they had done with it. If that were the case, no wonder he hates them with a vengeance. Seriously though, it seems to be a theme of Dragon Age that no matter the good intentions of the teacher, subsequent generations will twist that teaching so the author would barely recognise the society that claimed to be based on them. I'm hoping that we shall eventually be able to see as much of the Tome of Koslun as we have of the Chant of Light - may be another source book with it in. Then I'd like the opportunity for our PC to point out the difference in interpretation that could be placed on those teachings, although we were never allowed to do that with the Chant of Light so I suppose there is not much chance we shall get any different with the Tome of Koslun. This is one of the reasons I’m really hoping to see more non-military Qunari in future games. Because the text of the Qun really lends itself to gentler interpretations, there are almost certainly pockets of Qunari hippies somewhere (sort of like the IRL hippies who are really into Jesus), and that is just a delightful mental image.
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
Posts: 868 Likes: 1,715
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 17, 2018 21:01:47 GMT
Neither character is noteworthy enough for a cameo, but either would be a nice nod to previous games for a fleshed out role, particularly Tallis because Gatt is only interesting with regards to The Iron Bull.
But mostly I want Harding to return. In a big way. ❤️
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Post by Sifr on Aug 17, 2018 22:02:22 GMT
So... let’s recap. Koslun explicitly says, “hey, aren’t you being a little paranoid?” in the text of the story. And even if we’re supposed to take the beekeeper’s point of view, the beekeeper doesn’t do anything to the bees in this story, she wears protective gear on herself. Presumably the policy on saarebas comes from narrowly reading the last 2 sentences and taking them completely out of context. And let’s not even get into how clearly pacifist Koslun is, and their weird interpretation of... all of that. Honestly, I have a feeling that Koslun wrote the Qun as a self-help book.
But as so often happens, some people took it way too seriously and things quickly got out of hand.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2018 22:39:11 GMT
So... let’s recap. Koslun explicitly says, “hey, aren’t you being a little paranoid?” in the text of the story. And even if we’re supposed to take the beekeeper’s point of view, the beekeeper doesn’t do anything to the bees in this story, she wears protective gear on herself. Presumably the policy on saarebas comes from narrowly reading the last 2 sentences and taking them completely out of context. And let’s not even get into how clearly pacifist Koslun is, and their weird interpretation of... all of that. Honestly, I have a feeling that Koslun wrote the Qun as a self-help book.
But as so often happens, some people took it way too seriously and things quickly got out of hand.
It definitely reads like one. I’m in the camp with the previous poster, in the sense that I think there’s something elven about it. Philosophically, it bears a striking resemblance to the Vir Tanadhal, Andruil’s Way of the Three Trees. And there’s another part that really jumps out: “Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.” The Qunlat word for illusion (hissra) is the same as their word for “god”. Which god is associated with struggle? Also, in the elven language, “nothing” is a synonym for the Blight. If the Qun has elven roots, its core tenet could be conveying a very different message than we think.
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Post by Gilli on Aug 17, 2018 23:34:30 GMT
Honestly, I have a feeling that Koslun wrote the Qun as a self-help book.
But as so often happens, some people took it way too seriously and things quickly got out of hand.
It definitely reads like one. I’m in the camp with the previous poster, in the sense that I think there’s something elven about it. Philosophically, it bears a striking resemblance to the Vir Tanadhal, Andruil’s Way of the Three Trees. And there’s another part that really jumps out: “Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.”The Qunlat word for illusion (hissra) is the same as their word for “god”. Which god is associated with struggle? Also, in the elven language, “nothing” is a synonym for the Blight. If the Qun has elven roots, its core tenet could be conveying a very different message than we think. That's like one of Cillian's quotes from DAI MP (he's a dalish Arcane Warrior) it should start at 32:21 "I am as the sea. Who can stand against the tide?"
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 18, 2018 1:19:48 GMT
It definitely reads like one. I’m in the camp with the previous poster, in the sense that I think there’s something elven about it. Philosophically, it bears a striking resemblance to the Vir Tanadhal, Andruil’s Way of the Three Trees. And there’s another part that really jumps out: “Struggle is an illusion. The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless. There is nothing to struggle against. Victory is in the Qun.”The Qunlat word for illusion (hissra) is the same as their word for “god”. Which god is associated with struggle? Also, in the elven language, “nothing” is a synonym for the Blight. If the Qun has elven roots, its core tenet could be conveying a very different message than we think. That's like one of Cillian's quotes from DAI MP (he's a dalish Arcane Warrior) it should start at 32:21 "I am as the sea. Who can stand against the tide?"Wow! I never knew about the Cillian connection. That’s crazy! The tides passage is super central to the Qun, a bunch of Qunari have quoted it in various contexts. In fact, apropros of this thread, it’s one of Tallis’ first lines in Redemption.
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Post by Gilli on Aug 18, 2018 2:03:28 GMT
That's like one of Cillian's quotes from DAI MP (he's a dalish Arcane Warrior) it should start at 32:21 "I am as the sea. Who can stand against the tide?"Wow! I never knew about the Cillian connection. That’s crazy! The tides passage is super central to the Qun, a bunch of Qunari have quoted it in various contexts. In fact, apropros of this thread, it’s one of Tallis’ first lines in Redemption. I'd say that quote from Cillian is a sentence he says a lot too. (nearly every time you enter the last Zone in a MP game)
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 18, 2018 2:42:37 GMT
Wow! I never knew about the Cillian connection. That’s crazy! The tides passage is super central to the Qun, a bunch of Qunari have quoted it in various contexts. In fact, apropros of this thread, it’s one of Tallis’ first lines in Redemption. I'd say that quote from Cillian is a sentence he says a lot too. (nearly every time you enter the last Zone in a MP game) And Cillian’s the guy that everyone believes is an ancient elf. Suspicious indeed.
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