Fen'Harel Faceman
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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13,331
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almostfaceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 23, 2018 16:29:05 GMT
I'm curious Arrival aside, how do you feel the main plot was actually progressed in ME2? I've already given my two cents in that I feel ME2's purpose was to develop specific characters that were underdeveloped in ME1. It also replaced the villain we killed off in ME1 (Saren) with TIM (although he is presented to us an pseudo-ally) and the Collectors are the stand-in villains for the duration of ME2. What new information we learn about the Reapers is pretty nominal... they build additional reapers out of the species they harvest and that's pretty much it. Which is still progressing the story, along with learning the fate of the Protheans. GRANTED, had I been in charge and considering games like Andromeda and the Witcher 3 I would've done things pretty different. The main plot would've stayed the same but I would have included some side quests which also dealt with Shepard trying to prepare the Galaxy for the Reapers outside of the efforts of the Alliance or Cerberus. Something along that range. You also have to consider that a lot of the big decisions in ME 3 had their start in ME 2 including significant choices involving the genophage and the war with the geth. Its not perfect and ME 2 still does remain LARGELY its own seperate thing disconnected from ME 1 or 3 (to the determent of the series) but to say it had zero impact strikes me as hypberbole. No, that's progressing a small aspect of the story/lore, not the main plot. At the end of ME2, we're still where we were when Shepard walked away from the Council at the end of ME1. He's going to find a way to stop the Reapers. He doesn't do that in ME2. At all. He still has this same vague mission at the end of ME2. That's the main plot. That's Shepard's main impetus - to save the space-faring galaxy from doom. What *should* have happened in ME2 was Shepard investigating how to stop the Reapers - like the Child of Bhaal investigating the Iron Throne in Baldurs Gate. It doesn't mean I hate ME2 (I don't) but it's an accurate assessment to say ME2 doesn't advance the main plot, which is given to us at the end of ME1.
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Post by burningcherry on Oct 23, 2018 18:02:28 GMT
I like how ME2 introduced an ambience of safety to be destroyed in first minutes of ME3. Different coloristics also play a role here.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 23, 2018 18:07:24 GMT
I still think ME3 should have been split into two games, with ME2 focusing on gathering the various races to the cause and maybe ending with the Reapers arriving and hearing they attacked Earth. Then ME3 would focus on fighting and finding a way to defeat the Reapers. That would have allowed a lot of things that were lacking in the trilogy.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 23, 2018 18:21:19 GMT
ME1 could have started with the collectors doing what they did in ME2. At the end, Shepard learns why they did what they did. ME2 is like ME1 with Saren trying to bring the reapers into the Milky Way. Arrival dlc, played only after the end of the main story, will show the reapers on their way to the Milky Way. At the beginning of ME3, the council has found a way to use the Citadel relay to travel to darkspace. Shepard heads to darkspace where he/she learns Harbinger, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL, is key to stopping the reapers. Once back in the Milky Way, Shepard makes alliances with the other species. Near the end, Shepard gets word that the reapers have entered the galaxy. ME4 is where the galaxy fights the reapers. The goal is to destroy Harbinger, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL, to stop the harvest.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 23, 2018 19:04:45 GMT
What *should* have happened in ME2 was Shepard investigating how to stop the Reapers - like the Child of Bhaal investigating the Iron Throne in Baldurs Gate. Of course, they kind of dug themselves a hole there by having the Reapers be a matter for archaeology at that point, unless we would play as Liara instead of Shepard. I suppose something could have contrived around the Cipher, but who would we be shooting?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 23, 2018 19:13:20 GMT
What *should* have happened in ME2 was Shepard investigating how to stop the Reapers - like the Child of Bhaal investigating the Iron Throne in Baldurs Gate. Of course, they kind of dug themselves a hole there by having the Reapers be a matter for archaeology at that point, unless we would play as Liara instead of Shepard. I suppose something could have contrived around the Cipher, but who would we be shooting? Play as the Creeper? media.giphy.com/media/yMaLDA976YtUs/giphy.gif
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 23, 2018 19:44:22 GMT
I still think ME3 should have been split into two games, with ME2 focusing on gathering the various races to the cause and maybe ending with the Reapers arriving and hearing they attacked Earth. Then ME3 would focus on fighting and finding a way to defeat the Reapers. That would have allowed a lot of things that were lacking in the trilogy. I like this except I would have put the "finding a way to stop the Reapers" part in ME2 and then implementing that way (through a tough struggle with the Reapers) in ME3/4. After all, this quest to start finding ways to stop the Reapers began at the end of ME1 as Shepard walks away from the Council saying that he's on that quest.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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almostfaceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 23, 2018 19:45:27 GMT
What *should* have happened in ME2 was Shepard investigating how to stop the Reapers - like the Child of Bhaal investigating the Iron Throne in Baldurs Gate. Of course, they kind of dug themselves a hole there by having the Reapers be a matter for archaeology at that point, unless we would play as Liara instead of Shepard. I suppose something could have contrived around the Cipher, but who would we be shooting? I don't know, helping Liara could have been a lot of fun. Archaeology can be fun - look at Raiders of the Lost Ark.
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Old Scientist Contrarian
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 24, 2018 0:46:03 GMT
But again, who would we be shooting? Space Nazis? A pro-Reaper doomsday cult? Some rival of Liara's, like PeeBee's LM?
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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almostfaceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 24, 2018 1:23:35 GMT
But again, who would we be shooting? Space Nazis? A pro-Reaper doomsday cult? Some rival of Liara's, like PeeBee's LM? Is it really beyond your imagination to put together a story that doesn't involve shooting at the irrelevant Collectors or Cerberus? Mass Effect 1 planted seeds to the answer of that question. We found archaeological evidence of the Reapers in many places - but we weren't looking for Reaper evidence at that point. How did Sovereign operate? They indoctrinate. New indoctrinated species (Or even species they introduced in ME2, like the Drell) could have been introduced, working behind the scenes to keep Reaper evidence secret (like remains of a "derelict Reaper".) The point is, ME1 gave Shep that time to look for Reaper solutions that no other species had had before - because the Protheans interrupted their surprise attack window. Use that time to look for Reaper weaknesses and motivations. Open up some previously unopened-before Relays (new areas to explore!) that were closed because of reaction to the Rachni Wars. I'm not saying make it easy for Shep to defeat the Reapers, but I am saying follow the quest Shep started on at the end of ME1.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 24, 2018 2:13:21 GMT
But again, who would we be shooting? Space Nazis? A pro-Reaper doomsday cult? Some rival of Liara's, like PeeBee's LM? Is it really beyond your imagination to put together a story that doesn't involve shooting at the irrelevant Collectors or Cerberus? Mass Effect 1 planted seeds to the answer of that question. We found archaeological evidence of the Reapers in many places - but we weren't looking for Reaper evidence at that point. Now did Sovereign operate? They indoctrinate. New indoctrinated species (Or even species they introduced in ME2, like the Drell) could have been introduced, working behind the scenes to keep Reaper evidence secret (like remains of a "derelict Reaper".) The point is, ME1 gave Shep that time to look for Reaper solutions that no other species had had before - because the Protheans interrupted their surprise attack window. Use that time to look for Reaper weaknesses and motivations. Open up some previously unopened-before Relays (new areas to explore!) that were closed because of reaction to the Rachni Wars. I'm not saying make it easy for Shep to defeat the Reapers, but I am saying follow the quest Shep started on at the end of ME1. I for one like what we got so I prefer not to dwell on could of should of would of.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 24, 2018 2:18:19 GMT
Is it really beyond your imagination to put together a story that doesn't involve shooting at the irrelevant Collectors or Cerberus? Mass Effect 1 planted seeds to the answer of that question. We found archaeological evidence of the Reapers in many places - but we weren't looking for Reaper evidence at that point. Now did Sovereign operate? They indoctrinate. New indoctrinated species (Or even species they introduced in ME2, like the Drell) could have been introduced, working behind the scenes to keep Reaper evidence secret (like remains of a "derelict Reaper".) The point is, ME1 gave Shep that time to look for Reaper solutions that no other species had had before - because the Protheans interrupted their surprise attack window. Use that time to look for Reaper weaknesses and motivations. Open up some previously unopened-before Relays (new areas to explore!) that were closed because of reaction to the Rachni Wars. I'm not saying make it easy for Shep to defeat the Reapers, but I am saying follow the quest Shep started on at the end of ME1. I for one like what we got so I prefer not to dwell on could of should of would of. Okay. I'm not sure what that has to do anything, but okay. I don't want to *make* you do anything you don't want to do. But this is a public forum, and this is how I'm participating. Myself, I like looking at fiction I enjoy, the good the bad and the ugly. There's always something to be learned. If and when I decide to write or make something myself, I can learn from others mistakes and/or what they do right.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 24, 2018 8:49:04 GMT
I for one like what we got so I prefer not to dwell on could of should of would of. Okay. I'm not sure what that has to do anything, but okay. I don't want to *make* you do anything you don't want to do. But this is a public forum, and this is how I'm participating. Myself, I like looking at fiction I enjoy, the good the bad and the ugly. There's always something to be learned. If and when I decide to write or make something myself, I can learn from others mistakes and/or what they do right. Fair point. I may have misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were kind of advocating for a reboot which is something I don't want.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 24, 2018 14:07:05 GMT
Okay. I'm not sure what that has to do anything, but okay. I don't want to *make* you do anything you don't want to do. But this is a public forum, and this is how I'm participating. Myself, I like looking at fiction I enjoy, the good the bad and the ugly. There's always something to be learned. If and when I decide to write or make something myself, I can learn from others mistakes and/or what they do right. Fair point. I may have misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were kind of advocating for a reboot which is something I don't want. On the subject of Mass Effect reboots: I wouldn't even begin to call for a "reboot" until I saw Bioware put together some more ME1's - I liked ME1's design, story coherence and world-building. To be even more precise, I would like more Baldur's Gate qualities in my Mass Effect in the future. I'm saying this as a guy who's enjoyed the entire Mass Effect series - even Andromeda. But yeah, to repeat, I wouldn't call for a "reboot" unless Bioware showed they're returning to what they were shooting for in ME1. Even if that happened, there's never going to be a reboot. So I'd never advocate that hard for this to happen. There is a far better chance that they'll be a remaster, maybe putting the game in Frostbite - and I don't really see that happening either. And no, before anyone goes there, I don't think ME1 was perfect - or even close to perfect. I'd be more open to a modders kit for all of the games so that modders could "fix" what they saw as shortcomings. There's already mods out there that do that, but that development is hampered by how difficult it is to mod these games. In the case of any kind of updates or changes, I'm also for preserving the original games and having them kept accessible for those who want to buy/play them.
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 24, 2018 18:48:36 GMT
Just wanted to post this perspective again, because it tends gets lost in the shuffle. The Milky Way is big. VAST, even. The nature of the relay network was that it connected civilizations capable of interstellar travel across distances that they would not otherwise be able to cover, let alone explore. VAST distances. Think of it in relation between traveling in a car (star to star) and travel in a plane (nebula to nebula). You can get a pretty good notion of the lay of the land in a car. In a plane? Not so much. Mostly all you can do is see all the stuff you missed, pretty as it may be.
Consider the nature of the relay network. It is by design, spread VERY thin and more to the point, but again by design, it is ancient. It was designed to outlast the rise and fall of entire PLANETARY civilizations. Sometimes I fly over some small, seemingly uninhabited speck of land that may or my not host some small town I'm unable to see. And looking down on it through the window of the plane I'm on, I wonder, what will that look like in ten years? A hundred? A thousand?
All the nebula and star clusters and stars and worlds that were of no interest when the relay network was constructed all those millions of years ago. And all of the many, MANY more that they could not possibly have been discovered even if they spent billions of years in exploration. What has become of them?
There is PLENTY left to discover right here in the Milky Way. Andromeda can wait, I think.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Oct 24, 2018 19:02:14 GMT
Just wanted to post this perspective again, because it tends gets lost in the shuffle. The Milky Way is big. VAST, even. The nature of the relay network was that it connected civilizations capable of interstellar travel across distances that they would not otherwise be able to cover, let alone explore. VAST distances. Think of it in relation between traveling in a car (star to star) and travel in a plane (nebula to nebula). You can get a pretty good notion of the lay of the land in a car. In a plane? Not so much. Mostly all you can do is see all the stuff you missed, pretty as it may be. Consider the nature of the relay network. It is by design, spread VERY thin and more to the point, but again by design, it is ancient. It was designed to outlast the rise and fall of entire PLANETARY civilizations. Sometimes I fly over some small, seemingly uninhabited speck of land that may or my not host some small town I'm unable to see. And looking down on it through the window of the plane I'm on, I wonder, what will that look like in ten years? A hundred? A thousand? All the nebula and star clusters and stars and worlds that were of no interest when the relay network was constructed all those millions of years ago. And all of the many, MANY more that they could not possibly have been discovered even if they spent billions of years in exploration. What has become of them? There is PLENTY left to discover right here in the Milky Way. Andromeda can wait, I think. I agree with you. They've started in Andromeda, though. I don't see them going back to the Milky Way immediately, like the next game. But, I could be wrong. It won't be the end of the franchise (for me) if they stay in Andromeda for a bit. The new tech they found there could open up some doorways back to the Milky Way, if Bioware gets creative about things.
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fortlowe
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 24, 2018 19:16:27 GMT
I was...underwhelmed by the narrative of Andromeda, to say the least (even if I was actually quite pleased by the sheer variety and fidelity of the visual presentation {initial facial snafus, notwithstanding}). I finished the game thinking the games narrative should have covered a far longer period of time. We, the player, should have died well into, if not completely though to the end, playing as momma or poppa Ryder and passed the baton to little Ryder, IMO.
I think a very interesting vector for Mass Effect's overall narrative would be for the series to return to the Milky Way, then after perhaps hundreds (or even thousands) of years (relative to the Milky Way), to reconnect with the Andromeda mission.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 21:34:58 GMT
Just wanted to post this perspective again, because it tends gets lost in the shuffle. The Milky Way is big. VAST, even. The nature of the relay network was that it connected civilizations capable of interstellar travel across distances that they would not otherwise be able to cover, let alone explore. VAST distances. Think of it in relation between traveling in a car (star to star) and travel in a plane (nebula to nebula). You can get a pretty good notion of the lay of the land in a car. In a plane? Not so much. Mostly all you can do is see all the stuff you missed, pretty as it may be. Consider the nature of the relay network. It is by design, spread VERY thin and more to the point, but again by design, it is ancient. It was designed to outlast the rise and fall of entire PLANETARY civilizations. Sometimes I fly over some small, seemingly uninhabited speck of land that may or my not host some small town I'm unable to see. And looking down on it through the window of the plane I'm on, I wonder, what will that look like in ten years? A hundred? A thousand? All the nebula and star clusters and stars and worlds that were of no interest when the relay network was constructed all those millions of years ago. And all of the many, MANY more that they could not possibly have been discovered even if they spent billions of years in exploration. What has become of them? There is PLENTY left to discover right here in the Milky Way. Andromeda can wait, I think. Your analogy fails to consider that the Reapers, who are the ones who constructed the mass relays would have a vested interest in continuing to expand their relay network over all those millenia simply because the most likely areas where new species are developing space travel are in the areas of the galaxy where they did not harvest in the previous cycle. Over millennia, it is quite likely that they have constructed relays in that other 99% of the galaxy... which then begs the question as to why the Asari, Turian, and Human explorers would just skip over 99% of the existing relays in their own back yard to explore a relay all the way across the entire galaxy.
It's the same question people continually pose about the Initiative... Why not explore in your own backyard first? However, the logic error was first set up in ME1, not in Andromeda. Andromeda actually tries to correct for it going forward, by starting our exploration in a single cluster and, no doubt, planning to expand further games into adjacent clusters first and then working our way out farther and farther into the galaxy.
When you fly around in a plane, chances are you're flying over land that someone has already explored by surface travel and that is what allowed for the development of your destination airport in the first place. Chances are there are a ton of smaller airports you're flying over that are serviced by smaller feeder and commuter airlines. As a result, all those locations are actually already tied into the network. It's simply not unknown space.
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fortlowe
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 25, 2018 2:36:35 GMT
Just wanted to post this perspective again, because it tends gets lost in the shuffle. The Milky Way is big. VAST, even. The nature of the relay network was that it connected civilizations capable of interstellar travel across distances that they would not otherwise be able to cover, let alone explore. VAST distances. Think of it in relation between traveling in a car (star to star) and travel in a plane (nebula to nebula). You can get a pretty good notion of the lay of the land in a car. In a plane? Not so much. Mostly all you can do is see all the stuff you missed, pretty as it may be. Consider the nature of the relay network. It is by design, spread VERY thin and more to the point, but again by design, it is ancient. It was designed to outlast the rise and fall of entire PLANETARY civilizations. Sometimes I fly over some small, seemingly uninhabited speck of land that may or my not host some small town I'm unable to see. And looking down on it through the window of the plane I'm on, I wonder, what will that look like in ten years? A hundred? A thousand? All the nebula and star clusters and stars and worlds that were of no interest when the relay network was constructed all those millions of years ago. And all of the many, MANY more that they could not possibly have been discovered even if they spent billions of years in exploration. What has become of them? There is PLENTY left to discover right here in the Milky Way. Andromeda can wait, I think. Your analogy fails to consider that the Reapers, who are the ones who constructed the mass relays would have a vested interest in continuing to expand their relay network over all those millenia simply because the most likely areas where new species are developing space travel are in the areas of the galaxy where they did not harvest in the previous cycle. Over millennia, it is quite likely that they have constructed relays in that other 99% of the galaxy... which then begs the question as to why the Asari, Turian, and Human explorers would just skip over 99% of the existing relays in their own back yard to explore a relay all the way across the entire galaxy.
It's the same question people continually pose about the Initiative... Why not explore in your own backyard first? However, the logic error was first set up in ME1, not in Andromeda. Andromeda actually tries to correct for it going forward, by starting our exploration in a single cluster and, no doubt, planning to expand further games into adjacent clusters first and then working our way out farther and farther into the galaxy.
When you fly around in a plane, chances are you're flying over land that someone has already explored by surface travel and that is what allowed for the development of your destination airport in the first place. Chances are there are a ton of smaller airports you're flying over that are serviced by smaller feeder and commuter airlines. As a result, all those locations are actually already tied into the network. It's simply not unknown space.
Your logic fails to address the existence of space and more importantly, the passage, experience, and scarcity of time. The Reapers exist because of the Leviathan species. Likely, the Reapers gained their knowledge of the galactic terrain from their sires, not from exploration. Consider the 'Cycle'. Before it began, some exploration beyond the map the Leviathan passed on assuredly took place, however, those steps into the unknown were by necessity, very small. Given the technology available to them (I'll allow even the far fetched notion that they could send an entire relay anywhere in the galaxy) , it would still take a prohibitive amount of resources (relays are not at all small), time, research, and most prohibitive of all, evidence suggesting that the part of of the galaxy they would send said relay might someday harbor intelligent life millions of years in the future. If we start with the Reapers at first attempting to allow biological life to develop unhindered, that period of their timeline is likely the part most given to exploration. In this time I'll grant it is possible, but not likely if I'm honest, that they explored a majority of the galaxy. And they may have even marked some worlds as likely to harbor intelligent life in the distant future. However those pesky biological life forms the Reapers already know about, kept trying to annihilate themselves via their own creations. Hence the cycle. From the beginning of the cycle on, complete map of the galaxy or no, ALL of the Reapers' effort (based on the information from the lore at least) seems to be concentrated on fulfilling this cycle. In making sure that what exists within this already charted space was properly pruned. For close to a billion years. And if the argument is that they have been free to explore every 100,000 years? Well then it means the Reaper threat is still far from over (given that there must be millions of fleets of reapers still exploring the galaxy via FTL alone) after the events of ME3 (regardless of the end choice). That or the more likely conclusion that 100,000 years is simply not enough time to make any real expansion to the network while also wiping the known galaxy clean of any sufficiently intelligent life, AND preparing for the next round of galactic genocide. The Reapers are very powerful, but still bound by the constraints of time and resource every other living thing must contest with. So, I continue to wonder what may have popped up outside of the cycle territory. Outside of the network. The territory the Reapers initially, and inevitably I might add, have not been able to monitor. For nearly a billion years. P.S.: I still think the most likely conclusion is that the Reapers charted the Relay network almost entirely from the findings of the Leviathan, rather than their own explorations.
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Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 25, 2018 3:10:09 GMT
Your analogy fails to consider that the Reapers, who are the ones who constructed the mass relays would have a vested interest in continuing to expand their relay network over all those millenia simply because the most likely areas where new species are developing space travel are in the areas of the galaxy where they did not harvest in the previous cycle. Over millennia, it is quite likely that they have constructed relays in that other 99% of the galaxy... which then begs the question as to why the Asari, Turian, and Human explorers would just skip over 99% of the existing relays in their own back yard to explore a relay all the way across the entire galaxy.
It's the same question people continually pose about the Initiative... Why not explore in your own backyard first? However, the logic error was first set up in ME1, not in Andromeda. Andromeda actually tries to correct for it going forward, by starting our exploration in a single cluster and, no doubt, planning to expand further games into adjacent clusters first and then working our way out farther and farther into the galaxy.
When you fly around in a plane, chances are you're flying over land that someone has already explored by surface travel and that is what allowed for the development of your destination airport in the first place. Chances are there are a ton of smaller airports you're flying over that are serviced by smaller feeder and commuter airlines. As a result, all those locations are actually already tied into the network. It's simply not unknown space.
Your logic fails to address the existence of space and more importantly, the passage, experience, and scarcity of time. The Reapers exist because of the Leviathan species. Likely, the Reapers gained their knowledge of the galactic terrain from their sires, not from exploration. Consider the 'Cycle'. Before it began, some exploration beyond the map the Leviathan passed on assuredly took place, however, those steps into the unknown were by necessity, very small. Given the technology available to them (I'll allow even the far fetched notion that they could send an entire relay anywhere in the galaxy) , it would still take a prohibitive amount of resources (relays are not at all small), time, research, and most prohibitive of all, evidence suggesting that the part of of the galaxy they would send said relay might someday harbor intelligent life millions of years in the future. If we start with the Reapers at first attempting to allow biological life to develop unhindered, that period of their timeline is likely the part most given to exploration. In this time I'll grant it is possible, but not likely if I'm honest, that they explored a majority of the galaxy. And they may have even marked some worlds as likely to harbor intelligent life in the distant future. However those pesky biological life forms the Reapers already know about, kept trying to annihilate themselves via their own creations. Hence the cycle. From the beginning of the cycle on, complete map of the galaxy or no, ALL of the Reapers' effort (based on the information from the lore at least) seems to be concentrated on fulfilling this cycle. In making sure that what exists within this already charted space was properly pruned. For close to a billion years. And if the argument is that they have been free to explore every 100,000 years? Well then it means the Reaper threat is still far from over (given that there must be millions of fleets of reapers still exploring the galaxy via FTL alone) after the events of ME3 (regardless of the end choice). That or the more likely conclusion that 100,000 years is simply not enough time to make any real expansion to the network while also wiping the known galaxy clean of any sufficiently intelligent life, AND preparing for the next round of galactic genocide. The Reapers are very powerful, but still bound by the constraints of time and resource every other living thing must contest with. So, I continue to wonder what may have popped up outside of the cycle territory. Outside of the network. The territory the Reapers initially, and inevitably I might add, have not been able to monitor. For nearly a billion years. P.S.: I still think the most likely conclusion is that the Reapers charted the Relay network almost entirely from the findings of the Leviathan, rather than their own explorations. The thing is the lore in Mass Effect 1 doesn't even match the lore that BioWare was trying to set out with the Mass Effect Universe. In Mass Effect 1 it was stated that The Reapers would come in through the Citadel relay destroy the heart of the civilization and shut down the relay network. After doing all that the plan was to go system by system and destroy everything expect for things they cherry pick to guide future civilizations forward. So in reality Ilos shouldn't exist because of the systematic search to destroy all life. The whole plan was for the entire Milky Way to develop along the lines they want them to so not making sure there are no civilizations outside of their influence would be one of their priorities for they can have enough technology to search for planets with life and then make sure there are relays nearby for there is no indication how long they are in the galaxy after removing all signs of life. The Reapers were guiding the galaxy to their needs and even if they were basing it off Leviathan information they can still put enough relays around the galaxy to make sure they are able to have enough places for a complete scan every 50,000 to make sure there are no surprises after all they were able to put a station in the middle of the center of the galaxy I think making an array to scan the galaxy isn't beyond their reach either.
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fortlowe
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 25, 2018 4:50:36 GMT
I think, maybe, you're underestimating everything that would be involved to "put" a relay somewhere. Anywhere. Let alone millions of light years away in what amounts to the middle of nowhere. All for the purpose of providing an incentive for a possible civilization that in all likelihood may never advance to the point of wielding stone age tools, let alone developing interplanetary travel.
More likely, the nebula the Reapers know about are the same ones the Leviathan knew about.
Also, this once every 50,000 year 'scan' requires feedback. The scan itself doesn't find anything. The signal coming back or the distortion of the signal is what provides data. This 'scan' has to move through space to work, in other words. Which takes time. A lot more than 50,000 years.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 25, 2018 5:50:03 GMT
Your logic fails to address the existence of space and more importantly, the passage, experience, and scarcity of time. The Reapers exist because of the Leviathan species. Likely, the Reapers gained their knowledge of the galactic terrain from their sires, not from exploration. Consider the 'Cycle'. Before it began, some exploration beyond the map the Leviathan passed on assuredly took place, however, those steps into the unknown were by necessity, very small. What necessity are you talking about? A species which can cross the galaxy in a few decades and which lives for millions of years will have no problem charting that galaxy. As for resources, the Reapers' productive capability is whatever they need it to be. Again, millions of years. They can build any production infrastructure they like in that time.
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fortlowe
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 25, 2018 6:06:35 GMT
How do they cross the galaxy in decades? Without the relay network, that is?
* edit - This was a trick question. I apologize for that. I address the previous post along with the following post in the subsequent post.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 6:14:51 GMT
Your analogy fails to consider that the Reapers, who are the ones who constructed the mass relays would have a vested interest in continuing to expand their relay network over all those millenia simply because the most likely areas where new species are developing space travel are in the areas of the galaxy where they did not harvest in the previous cycle. Over millennia, it is quite likely that they have constructed relays in that other 99% of the galaxy... which then begs the question as to why the Asari, Turian, and Human explorers would just skip over 99% of the existing relays in their own back yard to explore a relay all the way across the entire galaxy.
It's the same question people continually pose about the Initiative... Why not explore in your own backyard first? However, the logic error was first set up in ME1, not in Andromeda. Andromeda actually tries to correct for it going forward, by starting our exploration in a single cluster and, no doubt, planning to expand further games into adjacent clusters first and then working our way out farther and farther into the galaxy.
When you fly around in a plane, chances are you're flying over land that someone has already explored by surface travel and that is what allowed for the development of your destination airport in the first place. Chances are there are a ton of smaller airports you're flying over that are serviced by smaller feeder and commuter airlines. As a result, all those locations are actually already tied into the network. It's simply not unknown space.
Your logic fails to address the existence of space and more importantly, the passage, experience, and scarcity of time. The Reapers exist because of the Leviathan species. Likely, the Reapers gained their knowledge of the galactic terrain from their sires, not from exploration. Consider the 'Cycle'. Before it began, some exploration beyond the map the Leviathan passed on assuredly took place, however, those steps into the unknown were by necessity, very small. Given the technology available to them (I'll allow even the far fetched notion that they could send an entire relay anywhere in the galaxy) , it would still take a prohibitive amount of resources (relays are not at all small), time, research, and most prohibitive of all, evidence suggesting that the part of of the galaxy they would send said relay might someday harbor intelligent life millions of years in the future. If we start with the Reapers at first attempting to allow biological life to develop unhindered, that period of their timeline is likely the part most given to exploration. In this time I'll grant it is possible, but not likely if I'm honest, that they explored a majority of the galaxy. And they may have even marked some worlds as likely to harbor intelligent life in the distant future. However those pesky biological life forms the Reapers already know about, kept trying to annihilate themselves via their own creations. Hence the cycle. From the beginning of the cycle on, complete map of the galaxy or no, ALL of the Reapers' effort (based on the information from the lore at least) seems to be concentrated on fulfilling this cycle. In making sure that what exists within this already charted space was properly pruned. For close to a billion years. And if the argument is that they have been free to explore every 100,000 years? Well then it means the Reaper threat is still far from over (given that there must be millions of fleets of reapers still exploring the galaxy via FTL alone) after the events of ME3 (regardless of the end choice). That or the more likely conclusion that 100,000 years is simply not enough time to make any real expansion to the network while also wiping the known galaxy clean of any sufficiently intelligent life, AND preparing for the next round of galactic genocide. The Reapers are very powerful, but still bound by the constraints of time and resource every other living thing must contest with. So, I continue to wonder what may have popped up outside of the cycle territory. Outside of the network. The territory the Reapers initially, and inevitably I might add, have not been able to monitor. For nearly a billion years. P.S.: I still think the most likely conclusion is that the Reapers charted the Relay network almost entirely from the findings of the Leviathan, rather than their own explorations.
What scarcity of time? We are told outright that the Reapers have engaged in an untold number of harvests each of which has been about 50,000 years apart and each creating a new reaper... and we are told that the numbers of Reapers in the galaxy are "legion" (basically, so numerous as to be uncountable). You can't have it both ways... a unexplored galaxy that remains uninteresting to the Reapers for billions of years and that never produces a species in all that time the Reapers would consider not worth harvesting or a galaxy, as you first suggested, that changes where previously uninteresting planets and stars change and become interesting with interesting new species, etc. The Reapers have had an indeterminable (essentially infinite) amout of time to chase down new species all parts of the Milky Way galaxy.
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fortlowe
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Post by fortlowe on Oct 25, 2018 6:53:52 GMT
Your logic fails to address the existence of space and more importantly, the passage, experience, and scarcity of time. The Reapers exist because of the Leviathan species. Likely, the Reapers gained their knowledge of the galactic terrain from their sires, not from exploration. Consider the 'Cycle'. Before it began, some exploration beyond the map the Leviathan passed on assuredly took place, however, those steps into the unknown were by necessity, very small. Given the technology available to them (I'll allow even the far fetched notion that they could send an entire relay anywhere in the galaxy) , it would still take a prohibitive amount of resources (relays are not at all small), time, research, and most prohibitive of all, evidence suggesting that the part of of the galaxy they would send said relay might someday harbor intelligent life millions of years in the future. If we start with the Reapers at first attempting to allow biological life to develop unhindered, that period of their timeline is likely the part most given to exploration. In this time I'll grant it is possible, but not likely if I'm honest, that they explored a majority of the galaxy. And they may have even marked some worlds as likely to harbor intelligent life in the distant future. However those pesky biological life forms the Reapers already know about, kept trying to annihilate themselves via their own creations. Hence the cycle. From the beginning of the cycle on, complete map of the galaxy or no, ALL of the Reapers' effort (based on the information from the lore at least) seems to be concentrated on fulfilling this cycle. In making sure that what exists within this already charted space was properly pruned. For close to a billion years. And if the argument is that they have been free to explore every 100,000 years? Well then it means the Reaper threat is still far from over (given that there must be millions of fleets of reapers still exploring the galaxy via FTL alone) after the events of ME3 (regardless of the end choice). That or the more likely conclusion that 100,000 years is simply not enough time to make any real expansion to the network while also wiping the known galaxy clean of any sufficiently intelligent life, AND preparing for the next round of galactic genocide. The Reapers are very powerful, but still bound by the constraints of time and resource every other living thing must contest with. So, I continue to wonder what may have popped up outside of the cycle territory. Outside of the network. The territory the Reapers initially, and inevitably I might add, have not been able to monitor. For nearly a billion years. P.S.: I still think the most likely conclusion is that the Reapers charted the Relay network almost entirely from the findings of the Leviathan, rather than their own explorations.
What scarcity of time? We are told outright that the Reapers have engaged in an untold number of harvests each of which has been about 50,000 years apart and each creating a new reaper... and we are told that the numbers of Reapers in the galaxy are "legion" (basically, so numerous as to be uncountable). You can't have it both ways... a unexplored galaxy that remains uninteresting to the Reapers for billions of years and that never produces a species in all that time the Reapers would consider not worth harvesting or a galaxy, as you first suggested, that changes where previously uninteresting planets and stars change and become interesting with interesting new species, etc. The Reapers have had an indeterminable (essentially infinite) amout of time to chase down new species all parts of the Milky Way galaxy.
Given good health, nutrition, and physical activity many people will live to be in their 70's or 80's. But all that time is spent in moments. They can occupy those moments with only so much activity. So even though the have 80 years to do it, they might not ever get the chance to learn to play the guitar. THAT is the scarcity of time. Even though the Reapers have hundreds of millions of years to live through, almost all their moment to moment activity is consumed with the Cycle. Also, I still don't see how they would 'chase down' another star system. There's more to interstellar travel than just going really fast. All the light you see when you look up at the stars at night was cast from stars millions of years ago while flying through the void at unimaginable speeds in differing vectors ( those vectors constantly altered by other gravitational wells) at differing stages of their respective origin stars life cycles. And it is no hyperbole when I say that ain't even the half of it. So unless you're going to do it the old fashioned way, that is move through space at subluminal speed to preserve relative observation, you're going to need a to know exactly where you're going before you get there. You'll need a map. A map the Leviathan provided, and neither the Reapers, nor anyone else, so far as the lore indicates, is capable of expanding on. So interesting or not, the Reapers have no way getting to an uncharted world unless it is very close to a charted world and they stumble upon it blindly. P.S.: It's not billions of years they have been at this. It's right at, a little more, or less than one billion years. This may not seem it, but is a very important distinction. It's like the difference between living to 80 and living to 8,000. You probably would squeeze those guitar lessons in with that kind of time.
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