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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 14, 2018 21:19:11 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesI mean, to be fair, some Mass Effect players thought that choosing to join Samantha Traynor in the shower was purely platonic, too, and were surprised and confused that it "suddenly turned into sex." (This is why Dragon Age has heart icons.) Related: if you turn Dorian down completely when he comes to your quarters, the Inquisitor says, "I don't know what you thought, but no..." This is after two mandatory kisses as part of the romance progression.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 14, 2018 22:27:15 GMT
(This is why Dragon Age has heart icons.) Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Aug 14, 2018 22:50:38 GMT
Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I assume a lot of them thought the massage dialog was tongue in cheek as opposed to the trigger for the romance. Some men find it funny to pretend to be gay with a friend.
Those heart icons are downright necessary though. In Mass Effect 2 I was Ninjamanced by Jack by being nice to her. I dont even like Jack.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 15, 2018 0:17:06 GMT
This is why Dragon Age has heart icons. This sort of loops back to the failure/perfection discussion, doesn’t it? Sending confusing signals, rejecting someone who got the wrong idea, finding a relationship develops unexpectedly... these are all normal parts of the human experience, and not something to be ashamed of. But in videogames, players tend to feel bad if their character mistakenly flirts with someone. The heart icon is one way to fix that, but it’s odd that people seem allergic to playing a character who makes mistakes. If their PC is going to make a mistake, it stems from their character flaws somehow, rather than being an innocent mistake. Even though those happen to real people all the time.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 15, 2018 0:22:43 GMT
Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I assume a lot of them thought the massage dialog was tongue in cheek as opposed to the trigger for the romance. Some men find it funny to pretend to be gay with a friend.
Those heart icons are downright necessary though. In Mass Effect 2 I was Ninjamanced by Jack by being nice to her. I dont even like Jack.
Possibility. I know that just being nice led to a lot of ninjamancing from Liara in ME 1, as well. (Well, not the complete ME 1 romance, but you'd get that tie breaking scene with her and Kaidan or Ash b/c the game assumed you were into Liara when you actually might have just been being kind and friendly.)
I ran into this a bit in MEA in that there were options I would have chosen with Suvi for example, based on the preview/summary line alone, but then I'd mouse over it and see the heart and realize the line was a flirt, not whatever I thought it was by wording alone.
Of course sometimes I still take the flirts. I did so in a scene with Cullen in DAI, even though I was dedicated to romancing Solas, b/c I saw the flirt option was the most supportive and intimate sounding option in the conversation (I play all conversations to death the first time I go through so I see all the options). It didn't sound like a flirt to me, even though the game was apparently marking it as romance content. It sounded like something I as a close friend could say to the other close friend who is kinda having a breakdown and needs emotional support.
The heart icon options can also be misleading. Romanced Liam. There is a scene relatively early on in the romance where he confesses some emotional stuff to you and you have the option to kiss him at that moment. The choice says "Kiss him.". The action is you suddenly end up having sex on the couch, with the two having an awkward conversation later where you can talk about how it did or didn't mean anything, people living in close quarters, blowing off steam, blah blah blah. Like, personally a kiss during that scene seemed wrong to me anyway(Cus that seemed like Ryder was suddenly making his emotional moment about her, not him. Just my opinion.), but THAT being the result if you chose that option was hilariously bad to me. At that point in the romance you two are barely past the "I think I might like you." stage. I like his romance in general, and didn't chose that option once I saw what it actually did, but man was that the worst kind of misleading option. lol
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 15, 2018 0:33:25 GMT
This is why Dragon Age has heart icons. This sort of loops back to the failure/perfection discussion, doesn’t it? Sending confusing signals, rejecting someone who got the wrong idea, finding a relationship develops unexpectedly... these are all normal parts of the human experience, and not something to be ashamed of. But in videogames, players tend to feel bad if their character mistakenly flirts with someone. The heart icon is one way to fix that, but it’s odd that people seem allergic to playing a character who makes mistakes. If their PC is going to make a mistake, it stems from their character flaws somehow, rather than being an innocent mistake. Even though those happen to real people all the time. mistaken flirts and mixed signals can be hilarious in hindsight. I flirted with Gil in MEA, before I found out he was gay, for example. He politely shoots me down and informs me of said gayness. And right after I did, I get his character codex entry that also mentions it. Like... thanks, SAM (who writes the codex entries in Universe). Coulda used that info beforehand. It was amusing, though, and no ultimate harm was done so I didn't feel a need to reload. But when it does something like take away player agency, even for the sake of a narrative surprise (You chose the kiss option? Boom! Surprise sex!) , its a fine line to walk.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 15, 2018 2:52:06 GMT
This sort of loops back to the failure/perfection discussion, doesn’t it? Sending confusing signals, rejecting someone who got the wrong idea, finding a relationship develops unexpectedly... these are all normal parts of the human experience, and not something to be ashamed of. But in videogames, players tend to feel bad if their character mistakenly flirts with someone. The heart icon is one way to fix that, but it’s odd that people seem allergic to playing a character who makes mistakes. If their PC is going to make a mistake, it stems from their character flaws somehow, rather than being an innocent mistake. Even though those happen to real people all the time. None of this applies to me and why I want icons. A character can reject; that's fine. By having that icon, I am 100% sure of my own intention with picking that option. I don't care what the NPC says or does with it (ideally he'd respond positively, of course, but that's beside the point). I don't tend to play flirty characters, and only flirt with my intended LI, so having those icons ensures that I'm able to stick to my roleplay in that regard.
And, y'know, I'm okay with not having that real life element as part of the game. Not everything has to be realistic.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 15, 2018 3:35:37 GMT
This sort of loops back to the failure/perfection discussion, doesn’t it? Sending confusing signals, rejecting someone who got the wrong idea, finding a relationship develops unexpectedly... these are all normal parts of the human experience, and not something to be ashamed of. But in videogames, players tend to feel bad if their character mistakenly flirts with someone. The heart icon is one way to fix that, but it’s odd that people seem allergic to playing a character who makes mistakes. If their PC is going to make a mistake, it stems from their character flaws somehow, rather than being an innocent mistake. Even though those happen to real people all the time. A character can reject; that's fine. By having that icon, I am 100% of my own intention with picking that option. I don't care what the NPC says or does with it (ideally he'd response positively, of course, but that's beside the point). I don't tend to play flirty characters, and only flirt with my intended LI, so having those icons ensures that I'm able to stick to my roleplay in that regard. I wouldn’t mind if heart=intention to flirt, but it seems to mean “this is a thing they’ll interpret as a flirt”. If someone’s a valid LI, it’s impossible to go wrong with the heart icon, i.e. there are no flirts that significantly hurt your chances at a relationship. It would be fun to have the option to come on too strong and mess things up.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 15, 2018 20:00:25 GMT
(This is why Dragon Age has heart icons.) Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I really liked the ninjamancing. That seems like a thing that could actually happen: you give someone signals they misunderstand, and by the time you realize what happened it's just easier to go along with it. Not having the icons was more realistic.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 15, 2018 21:43:12 GMT
Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I assume a lot of them thought the massage dialog was tongue in cheek as opposed to the trigger for the romance. Some men find it funny to pretend to be gay with a friend.
Those heart icons are downright necessary though. In Mass Effect 2 I was Ninjamanced by Jack by being nice to her. I dont even like Jack.
You too? But truth is, ninjamancing had been a problem since, well, the beginning. My first run of Baldur's Gate 2 I ended up with Aerie and Jaheira having a catfight over my Charname when I thought I was just being a good listener
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 15, 2018 21:47:11 GMT
Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I really liked the ninjamancing. That seems like a thing that could actually happen: you give someone signals they misunderstand, and by the time you realize what happened it's just easier to go along with it. Not having the icons was more realistic. I think it depends on how you play. If you prefer to play spontaneously or self-insert then perhaps. But if you plan to tell the story of a character that is separate from you or have full/most control over the story then no. After all, characters never see the heart icon and we can decide whether our PC bumbled into a romance or not. That's part of, you know, role-playing - or storytelling in general.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 16, 2018 19:21:53 GMT
I think it depends on how you play. If you prefer to play spontaneously or self-insert then perhaps. But if you plan to tell the story of a character that is separate from you or have full/most control over the story then no. After all, characters never see the heart icon and we can decide whether our PC bumbled into a romance or not. That's part of, you know, role-playing - or storytelling in general. I think that's exactly right. A storyteller and a roleplayer are doing very different things. I'm playing a character. My character, like any real person, cannot read minds or see the future. There's a reason I like to turn off all the tone icons.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 16, 2018 19:38:56 GMT
I think it depends on how you play. If you prefer to play spontaneously or self-insert then perhaps. But if you plan to tell the story of a character that is separate from you or have full/most control over the story then no. After all, characters never see the heart icon and we can decide whether our PC bumbled into a romance or not. That's part of, you know, role-playing - or storytelling in general. I think that's exactly right. A storyteller and a roleplayer are doing very different things. I'm playing a character. My character, like any real person, cannot read minds or see the future. There's a reason I like to turn off all the tone icons. But aren't the tone icons intended so YOU know how the line is going to be delivered? I would assume that your own character would know if he or she was angry, snarky, calm, flirting, etc.
The problem with romances isn't precisely the lack of heart icons, but the potential LI flinging themselves at the player unless you act like an utter *sshat towards them. Confining the relationships to the "flirt" options is sort of a mechanical bandaid for this.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 16, 2018 20:12:00 GMT
But aren't the tone icons intended so YOU know how the line is going to be delivered? I would assume that your own character would know if he or she was angry, snarky, calm, flirting, etc. In theory, yes. That's certainly how they were sold to us. But in practice, that's not what they do. The icons tell us how the NPC will interpret the remark, and that's something I don't think the player should know. There's no necessary connection between what you mean and what someone else hears. The silent protagonist allowed for that disconnect; the tone icons remove it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 16, 2018 20:19:11 GMT
Without a shadow of a doubt in my mind I prefer the icons for romance. I do not want to choose what just seems to be being nice as suddenly my characters wants a romance or sex with someone I am not interested in like as has happened before the icons. I'd like it to go even a step further and you can see what kind of flirt your character will say. MEA did something like this where you had options and that was really neat.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Aug 16, 2018 20:28:48 GMT
But aren't the tone icons intended so YOU know how the line is going to be delivered? I would assume that your own character would know if he or she was angry, snarky, calm, flirting, etc. In theory, yes. That's certainly how they were sold to us. But in practice, that's not what they do. The icons tell us how the NPC will interpret the remark, and that's something I don't think the player should know. There's no necessary connection between what you mean and what someone else hears. The silent protagonist allowed for that disconnect; the tone icons remove it. I'm not sure I completely agree with that. While yes misinterpreting something is certainly possible in some circumstances, most of the time a person's mood can be pretty clear unless they are actively trying to conceal it, or for whatever reason have different, easily misinterpreted or missed, emotional queues.
I could certainly get behind such misinterpretations under the right circumstances, of course. But if the Player character picks the "angry" options and starts yelling at someone, it only makes sense that the NPC comes to the conclusions that you are "angry".
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Post by Gilli on Aug 16, 2018 20:36:02 GMT
I prefer the icons too. Sure, sure they are so I know it's a flirt option, but it also helps to RP, because if I play a chara who does not flirt, then I also do not want to accidentally click on a flirt dialogue. Same with charas who might be flirty, but later fall in love and stop flirting with others. And not to forget: saving me from getting ninja-manced My poor mage Warden once went to talk to his girlfriend Morrigan, just for her getting angry at him for "cheating on her with the elf!" I had used the Approval/Disapproval list on the DA wiki to AVOID getting ninja-manced by Zevran, but it seemed he liked my Warden so much, it still happened.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 16, 2018 21:13:31 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance:
Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems?
Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children?
Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk!
I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 16, 2018 21:27:14 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance: Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems? Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children? Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk! I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options. It's certainly needed if we have to rely on paraphrases for conversation options.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 16, 2018 21:42:39 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance: Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems? Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children? Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk! I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options. It's certainly needed if we have to rely on paraphrases for conversation options. Which is my preference.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 18, 2018 14:55:23 GMT
Whenever people complain that their existence makes the romances too obvious or easy, I remember all the dudes who came around the BioWare forums back in the day just to complain that they accidentally had sex with Zevran.
(No, I don't know how they managed that either, other than plain not reading the dialogue options. He's a lot of things, but subtle in his advances is not one of them.)
I really liked the ninjamancing. That seems like a thing that could actually happen: you give someone signals they misunderstand, and by the time you realize what happened it's just easier to go along with it. Not having the icons was more realistic. While I agree that Inquisition's romance locks were a response to people complaining about being ninjamanced by certain characters (usually Leliana, Zevran or Anders), sometimes I think it was to save time and money by not having the "misunderstanding/cheating" scenes at all.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2018 16:24:31 GMT
I think the later ME games made the same design decision, didn't they?
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Post by phoray on Aug 18, 2018 18:35:34 GMT
While I agree that Inquisition's romance locks were a response to people complaining about being ninjamanced by certain characters (usually Leliana, Zevran or Anders), sometimes I think it was to save time and money by not having the "misunderstanding/cheating" scenes at all.I thought it was absolutely the bolded ^^
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Post by colfoley on Aug 18, 2018 18:45:44 GMT
And yet you get the misunderstanding scene with Cassandra.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 18, 2018 19:38:42 GMT
And yet you get the misunderstanding scene with Cassandra. Do you mean the "Are you getting married/going to propose?" scene?
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