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Post by simit on Aug 20, 2018 0:27:44 GMT
He probably roleplayed the line that way injecting his own tone and meaning.
Anyhow i prefer toned icons with a voiced pc, DA:I expanded it so i don't expect less in DA4
If it a silent pc i dont want icons
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Post by melbella on Aug 20, 2018 0:51:10 GMT
He probably roleplayed the line that way injecting his own tone and meaning.
And his intent differed from the writer's intent, yes? This is why I like the icons. So MY intent is clear. Too many times did I get the reading wrong in DAO and what my character "said" wasn't at all what I intended to say. Yes, the words matched, but the tone was all wrong. Yet, he just got done saying that never happened to him in DAO, but this seems like an instance when it did.
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 20, 2018 1:31:26 GMT
If anything, I'd add more tone icons. The "normal" dialogue options should have the icons added back because they're clearly meant to be diplomatic/funny/pragmatic. Leaving them out just confuses new players.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 20, 2018 1:57:59 GMT
LOL! sorry but i.m getting the hint you know little about relationships with the opposite sex, Flame me if I,m wrong which I,m sure you will but I prefer to figure it out for myself rather have Bioware tell me she/he is interested in me. I know very little about relationships, period. I further dispute that anyone really does. They're not even a thing. I also don't want BioWare to tell me these things. That's why I don't like the tone icons.
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Post by simit on Aug 20, 2018 2:23:58 GMT
He probably roleplayed the line that way injecting his own tone and meaning.
And his intent differed from the writer's intent, yes? This is why I like the icons. So MY intent is clear. Too many times did I get the reading wrong in DAO and what my character "said" wasn't at all what I intended to say. Yes, the words matched, but the tone was all wrong. Yet, he just got done saying that never happened to him in DAO, but this seems like an instance when it did.
His intent was clear, to his character, but as is happens in life that intent was misunderstood It just the way i interpreted it, i could be wrong much like Leliana
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2018 3:42:38 GMT
Personally I think the tone icons are vital for Role Playing, at least when it comes to personality based roleplaying and not morality based roleplaying. Because there can be vast differences of the line "Can we not try dipplomacy?" based on tone, for instance: Diplomatic: Can we please stop fighting and sit down and actually solve our problems? Sarcastic: Can we pleeeasse stop fighting and talk about things like actual adults or do you want to go back to fighting like petty children? Or Aggressive: Stop fighting or so help me Maker I will MAKE you sit down and talk! I mean essentially from a writer perspective A. All of these dialogue options essentially end in the same place with the basic propositon of us trying diplomacy but B. from a character perspective each variance and difference in response tells us a lot about what kind of person we want our characters to be. Now note voice acting does also play a role for this where I find certain voice actors tend to make it easier to play and pick certain dialogue options. I want to be able to divorce tone from word choice. If I could choose the paraphrase and tone icon separately, then the tone icon might be useful, but all it does now is constrain the number of ways each paraphrase can be used (from a character perspective). When we had the silent protagonist, we were free to assign whatever tone we wanted to each dialogue option, and even treat the options as logically equivalent paraphrases if we wanted to adjust the word choice. Tying the intended tone to the dialogue option means that each option is now a much narrower range of possibilities. If anything I find that Tone options are even more neccessary when the protagonist is silent then when the protagonist is vocal because there does not seem to be any real rhyme or reason to the dialogue options. There is no 'diplomatic/sarcastic/ aggressive' way of telling thing, the order of the dialogue does not matter as far as I can tell, its just random dialogue options fully written out. And sure you and I might assign what how we want our character to say those lines but the writer and the game might assign a very different reaction. For instance, on my example earlier, if the line says 'can we not try dipplomacy?' we might think that the character will be nice. But the Dwarven Lord we are talking to reacts insulted and aggressively to the suggestion because to him how we said it was angry and insulting or sarcastic. But since we do not have any tone of voice from a voice actor and nor do we have any real way to tell how our characters would voice these lines if they had a voice actor, we are blindsided. This is a problem which does also happen in Mass Effect but at least in that game we can generally asume...at least in ME 2...how 'Paragon' 'neutral' and 'renegade' sounds. This actually did happen to me in one of my playthroughs of Origins when my Warden did one of the options on the Right of Anulment. To me I wanted my Warden, that Warden, to be kin d of an ass but then they were just exploring their options and they were being curious...yet it set off a chain of events were Wynne was killed. If I had a tone icon I probably would've had more information that it would've led to a fight or my Warden was about to be a REAL BIG ass instead of a minor one.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 20, 2018 4:39:36 GMT
Are you sure that's what they intended? How can you tell if there is no tone icon present?
It was the general consensus of the players on old BSN. As I was playing it, the writer's intent was irrelevant as my character would have been unaware of it. That's how my Warden took it. We're talking about 2 different realities here. In game, who knows what Leliana was thinking? My Warden thought she was mocking him. Outside the game, the writer had some intent in mind for the line. The two have nothing to do with each other. Neither do I. That's why I preferred the silent protagonist. Full-text dialogue options tell me exactly what will be said, and I have perfect knowledge of the tone because I made it up myself. The paraphrase + tone icon don't tell me either thing. The literal meaning is hidden behind the paraphrase, and the tone icons don't have unambiguous definitions. And even if they did, I'd rather not have each line tied inexorably to a single delivery. My real-world experience matches the silent protagonist games almost perfectly. The sorts of misunderstandings that can occur in DAO are a regular real-world experience.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 20, 2018 4:42:29 GMT
Too many times did I get the reading wrong in DAO and what my character "said" wasn't at all what I intended to say. Yes, the words matched, but the tone was all wrong. Yet, he just got done saying that never happened to him in DAO, but this seems like an instance when it did. There's no tone at all in DAO except the tone you invent. There is no way for you to be wrong about your character's tone. The problem you describe happens constantly with the paraphrase, though, because the character says a thing I didn't explicitly choose.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 20, 2018 5:04:44 GMT
If anything I find that Tone options are even more neccessary when the protagonist is silent then when the protagonist is vocal because there does not seem to be any real rhyme or reason to the dialogue options. As it should be. The dialogue options are "things we can say." That's all they are. The existence of an option tells us nothing about the character's perspective or intent. And because there's no defined set of tones, we have innumerable ways to deliver each line. People tell me there was a pattern to how the full-text dialogue options were presented, but I never discerned the pattern and frankly I wouldn't want to. The set order of options on the dialogue wheel was a problem. I wish I could have randomized the positions as well as disabling the icons. We're blindsided either way. The only difference is that with the voiced protagonist we have fewer options from which to choose (because each line has only one delivery). But the voice-actor doesn't help us because we don't get to hear the line until after we've chosen it, and then it's too late. Roleplaying is the making of in-character decisions. Choose what to say and how to say it is a part of that. I would argue that we get to do neither with the voiced protagonist. The paraphrase prevents us from knowing what line we're choosing, and the tone icons do not give us enough information about the delivery of that line. Plus, as mentioned, we're stuck with only one delivery for each line - a line we don't even get to see in advance. Choosing the option behind door number Paragon is different-in-kind from choosing to sat a specific line because it does not divulge a specific piece of information you're trying to keep secret. ME2 was awful at this. I tried to be nice to TIM at the start (because I thought he was right, frankly), but Paragon options made Shepard antagonistic. That made no sense to me. DA2 had the same problem. I recall a conversation with slavers in Darktown where one asked "Can I go now?" I chose the option "Yes" because Hawke bore the slavers no ill will. They'd just completed a business transaction, and the slavers had treated Hawke fairly. Hawke sneered threats at them, promising to kill them if they ever came back. What? If I'd known Hawke was forced to hate the slavers, I would have chosen the other option and killed them; at least them Hawke's personality would be coherent. This is exactly how real-world conversations work. People jump to conclusions and make terrible decisions with terrible consequences. Have you never met people?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2018 5:19:38 GMT
If anything I find that Tone options are even more neccessary when the protagonist is silent then when the protagonist is vocal because there does not seem to be any real rhyme or reason to the dialogue options. As it should be. The dialogue options are "things we can say." That's all they are. The existence of an option tells us nothing about the character's perspective or intent. And because there's no defined set of tones, we have innumerable ways to deliver each line. People tell me there was a pattern to how the full-text dialogue options were presented, but I never discerned the pattern and frankly I wouldn't want to. The set order of options on the dialogue wheel was a problem. I wish I could have randomized the positions as well as disabling the icons. We're blindsided either way. The only difference is that with the voiced protagonist we have fewer options from which to choose (because each line has only one delivery). But the voice-actor doesn't help us because we don't get to hear the line until after we've chosen it, and then it's too late. Roleplaying is the making of in-character decisions. Choose what to say and how to say it is a part of that. I would argue that we get to do neither with the voiced protagonist. The paraphrase prevents us from knowing what line we're choosing, and the tone icons do not give us enough information about the delivery of that line. Plus, as mentioned, we're stuck with only one delivery for each line - a line we don't even get to see in advance. Choosing the option behind door number Paragon is different-in-kind from choosing to sat a specific line because it does not divulge a specific piece of information you're trying to keep secret. ME2 was awful at this. I tried to be nice to TIM at the start (because I thought he was right, frankly), but Paragon options made Shepard antagonistic. That made no sense to me. DA2 had the same problem. I recall a conversation with slavers in Darktown where one asked "Can I go now?" I chose the option "Yes" because Hawke bore the slavers no ill will. They'd just completed a business transaction, and the slavers had treated Hawke fairly. Hawke sneered threats at them, promising to kill them if they ever came back. What? If I'd known Hawke was forced to hate the slavers, I would have chosen the other option and killed them; at least them Hawke's personality would be coherent. This is exactly how real-world conversations work. People jump to conclusions and make terrible decisions with terrible consequences. Have you never met people? You're surprised that a Paragon Shepard was at philosophical odds/ slightly antagonistic to TIM? I'm curious what the 'tone' was for the yes or if it was one of the choice wheel once. As a matter of course I do not remember getting that scene myself. Sure I've met people, but I haven't yet had to kill one because I was trying to be a slightly sarcastic if pointed jerk to them. The point of the matter is that, while it might be 'meta', the more information we have as players the more we can make an informed descision about what and how they are going to say something which will let us have better role play. Of course this is for me since I prefer voiced protagonists to unvoiced protagonists in all of my games. So random jumble of unvoiced dialogue options<Order of dialogue options where we can be reasonably sure what we are getting< tone + paraphrase = should be fairly good idea of what I am getting. Frankly I don't remember being as blindsided by my characters dialogue in DA 2 or MEA as I was in the MET or DAO. DAI would be a bit of an exception to this overall rule but I suppose that could be just because the game was so much better written. And frankly this is information that I feel that we, as a player, should have when creating a character...because that's all I am doing is creating a character.
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Post by XJlock on Aug 20, 2018 5:32:19 GMT
Not all surprises are good, therefore the current way of using tone icons is fine.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 20, 2018 6:05:30 GMT
This poll lacks the option "No tone icons, write better paraphrases". Tone icons are a crutch, not a fix.
Also, there are more important things to fix about dialogue than those silly icons - like being able to talk to your squad in the field instead of just being the passive recipient of "banter"... when it works.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2018 6:10:27 GMT
This poll lacks the option "No tone icons, write better paraphrases". Tone icons are a crutch, not a fix. Also, there are more important things to fix about dialogue than those silly icons - like being able to talk to your squad in the field instead of just being the passive recipient of "banter"... when it works. Bioware writes pretty good paraphrases by and large, minus with ME 1 of course, I don't see how giving the players more information is a problem.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 20, 2018 6:32:56 GMT
This poll lacks the option "No tone icons, write better paraphrases". Tone icons are a crutch, not a fix. Also, there are more important things to fix about dialogue than those silly icons - like being able to talk to your squad in the field instead of just being the passive recipient of "banter"... when it works. Bioware writes pretty good paraphrases by and large, minus with ME 1 of course, I don't see how giving the players more information is a problem. Also minus DA2, which so far had the most dialogue related surprises of any game I ever played for me. Of course more information is never a bad thing, but if the paraphrase is well written, the icon should not be necessary. It is only needed if the text alone doesn't tell the player what s/he needs to know.
DAI seemed to use the tone icons to augment the Inquisitor's voice acting. If I pick a line with a red fist and get a half assed "Corypheus will pay for this.", it's the icon that tells me that the line is supposed to be angry, not the actual voice acting. Yes, there was this one angry line in Trespasser, but not much else.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2018 6:52:24 GMT
Honestly, I suppose I suppose the problem is I just don't fully trust any game without tone icons anymore. Games without tone icons tend to fall into two camps for me. A. Vague dialogue systems where there are no rules and you have to just pray that what is on the screen actually matches what you intend to say from a roleplaying perspetive. (Origins, Skyrim, Witcher 3) or B. morality based dialgoue systems which while nice and do have their place ultimatley fall apart because that point you aren't really role-playing just making decisions. Which is why Paragon and Renegade didn't work out too well when Shepard had to deal with regular every day conversations. (MET, Witcher 3)
DA I kind of was the exception to the rule but then they A. did have their own tone dialogue choices which helped flesh out the character and B. the more regular wheel in the game was also for the Inquisitor's personality and they got a seperate wheel for choices. Still I would've preffered more of the tone which is why Ryder and Hawke are on top of the food chain and BioWare should look more to them for their solutions.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 20, 2018 6:56:37 GMT
People have been telling me this for years, and I have never understood it. I still don't. In order for what you say to be true, we would need to be able to know why an NPC delivered a line the way she did, and based on that know how she interpreted what we said before that, and based on that know how we must have said that line in order to induce that interpretation. The level of mind-reading required for that to make any sense strains credulity. No, it doesn't. It just requires that you be able to partake in standard human interactions and interpret those interactions. I'll give an example of the way it works in DAO, since you're lauding the silent protagonist. When you're entering Redcliffe for the first time, you get some dialogue about Alistair being a bastard and all that. One of the dialogue options is, "So... you're not just a bastard, but a royal bastard?" To me, that is a jerky thing to say, so I don't say it. But if you take that option, Alistair finds it amusing. He has a positive response and you get approval. Regardless of whether you meant it to be a cutting jibe, or merely harmless snark, Alistair is amused and takes no offense; you can tell by his response. You don't need to know why he responded that way, just be able to read his response as you would any human interaction.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2018 6:58:09 GMT
People have been telling me this for years, and I have never understood it. I still don't. In order for what you say to be true, we would need to be able to know why an NPC delivered a line the way she did, and based on that know how she interpreted what we said before that, and based on that know how we must have said that line in order to induce that interpretation. The level of mind-reading required for that to make any sense strains credulity. No, it doesn't. It just requires that you be able to partake in standard human interactions and interpret those interactions. I'll give an example of the way it works in DAO, since you're lauding the silent protagonist. When you're entering Redcliffe for the first time, you get some dialogue about Alistair being a bastard and all that. One of the dialogue options is, "So... you're not just a bastard, but a royal bastard?" To me, that is a jerky thing to say, so I don't say it. But if you take that option, Alistair finds it amusing. He has a positive response and you get approval. Regardless of whether you meant it to be a cutting jibe, or merely harmless snark, Alistair is amused and takes no offense; you can tell by his response. You don't need to know why he responded that way, just be able to read his response as you would any human interaction. Excellent example.
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TabithaTH
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 20, 2018 10:23:26 GMT
I honestly don’t see why this even needs to be discussed as an either/or scenario. They already have the option of turning tone icons and subtitles off. All they need to do is add the ability to mute the PC’s voice only, and then you have an optional silent protag. It even works for people who dislike the voice(s) available. I'll give an example of the way it works in DAO, since you're lauding the silent protagonist. When you're entering Redcliffe for the first time, you get some dialogue about Alistair being a bastard and all that. One of the dialogue options is, "So... you're not just a bastard, but a royal bastard?" I always took that as a snarky remark. By that time in the game, I knew enough about Alistair to have a pretty good idea about his personality and thus how the writers (for the most part) intended such a remark. Even if I disregard the writers’ intentions, I still knew him well enough to know how he would take it, no matter how I envisioned the delivery. However, there where a couple of times (mostly when romancing him) when I wasn’t sure whether something would be taken as a joke or an insult. I think I ended up picking the lines that were obviously good just in case. Incidentally, I remember an interview with one of the writers on DAO/DA:I. He specifically mentioned how great it was not to have to write in a way that showed intention. Now the PC had a voice that could show it instead. In other words, they did try to make the tone indirectly visible.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 20, 2018 12:31:10 GMT
All they need to do is add the ability to mute the PC’s voice only, and then you have an optional silent protag. They have specifically stated they're not going to do this. The PC is voiced and people just have to accept it. The cinematics are based around a voiced PC. The camera would go to the PC mouthing words without sound. It is not at all the same thing as turning off a UI option, like subtitles or tone icons.
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 20, 2018 12:42:52 GMT
All they need to do is add the ability to mute the PC’s voice only, and then you have an optional silent protag. They have specifically stated they're not going to do this. The PC is voiced and people just have to accept it. The cinematics are based around a voiced PC. The camera would go to the PC mouthing words without sound. It is not at all the same thing as turning off a UI option, like subtitles or tone icons. Didn't think about cutscenes. And please don't get me wrong, personally I'd rather they spend time/money on other things. I just still feel it wouldn't be that impossible if they actually wanted to do it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 20, 2018 12:51:18 GMT
All I really want to know is which lines are the funny ones. I want to be a wise-cracking rogue, and for that to happen, I need to know where the jokes are. DA:I's tone wheel was a big disappointment because none of the new icons made it clear which lines those would be, and in most cases the answer seemed to be "none of them".
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Gilli
Stuck in the Forgotten Realms
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August 2016
gilli
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Gilli-chan
EMH-Bruce
2712
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Post by Gilli on Aug 20, 2018 13:37:27 GMT
Regarding "Tone" some time ago I played "Agatha Christie - The ABC Murders". You play Hercule Poirot and when interviewing witnesses you get different options you can ask. Those options are paraphrased and NOT the exact wording of what Poirot will say! So in the very first case I was interviewing the Niece of the first victim. She told me that her aunt had be afraid of her husband. One of the dialogue options then was "Did she think of getting a divorce?" which sounded like an innocent-ish type of question, just for Poirot to be horribly rude and sending the poor girl into a crying fit. The interview got broken off and it earned me the achievement of "Being a Donkey" I wished there had been a tone icon, or text to tell me how Poirot would phrase the question.
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river82
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July 2017
river82
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Post by river82 on Aug 20, 2018 13:52:59 GMT
Regarding "Tone" some time ago I played "Agatha Christie - The ABC Murders". You play Hercule Poirot and when interviewing witnesses you get different options you can ask. Those options are paraphrased and NOT the exact wording of what Poirot will say! So in the very first case I was interviewing the Niece of the first victim. She told me that her aunt had be afraid of her husband. One of the dialogue options then was "Did she think of getting a divorce?" which sounded like an innocent-ish type of question, just for Poirot to be horribly rude and sending the poor girl into a crying fit. The interview got broken off and it earned me the achievement of "Being a Donkey" I wished there had been a tone icon, or text to tell me how Poirot would phrase the question. Considering it's Poirot, the options would probably be - arrogant, super arrogant, conceited, and rude I love Poirot :3
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inherit
The Good Drow
510
0
May 15, 2024 22:12:01 GMT
6,800
Gilli
Stuck in the Forgotten Realms
2,914
August 2016
gilli
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Gilli-chan
EMH-Bruce
2712
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Post by Gilli on Aug 20, 2018 13:57:02 GMT
Regarding "Tone" some time ago I played "Agatha Christie - The ABC Murders". You play Hercule Poirot and when interviewing witnesses you get different options you can ask. Those options are paraphrased and NOT the exact wording of what Poirot will say! So in the very first case I was interviewing the Niece of the first victim. She told me that her aunt had be afraid of her husband. One of the dialogue options then was "Did she think of getting a divorce?" which sounded like an innocent-ish type of question, just for Poirot to be horribly rude and sending the poor girl into a crying fit. The interview got broken off and it earned me the achievement of "Being a Donkey" I wished there had been a tone icon, or text to tell me how Poirot would phrase the question. Considering it's Poirot, the options would probably be - arrogant, super arrogant, conceited, and rude I love Poirot :3 IIRC they are Trying to be polite Arrogant Rude - Not necessarily in that order (There is an achievement for looking into every mirror in the game and making sure your mustache looks good )
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 502 Likes: 898
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May 14, 2024 19:47:15 GMT
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TabithaTH
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Jul 22, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
July 2018
teatabitha
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 20, 2018 14:12:42 GMT
(There is an achievement for looking into every mirror in the game and making sure your mustache looks good ) There's also one for picking the rude option every time .
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